dalsingh101

Sounds like it activates your parasympathetic nervous system? http://www.thisismyanmar.com/nibbana/tinhtut6.htm

Lets be frank, a fair portion of those farmers don't work the lands themselves at all. My own cousins are the same. So this is no solution because then everyone will start cutting each others neck over the white collar jobs and that nepotistic clan mentality will kick in turning that into a model of discrimination etc. Besides, that global warming lark is a serious threat to Panjab's agricultural economy. You know those pendus don't think forward and are likely to get caught with their kutcha down in this one. Okay, "so what", you may say, "they always do on just about everything!" But no, cocking up here will almost certainly guarantee having our children big bellied, with flies crawling all over their faces, crying for food in the media in future. Yes, I'm talking possible famine. When you think about it like that, maybe we need to forget Panjab and start digging in deep outside?

It has to be said, we do have some serious 'nasha loving' issues across the panth. Be it drugs or booze. Not only in terms of taking them...but the WAY some apnay take them...excess AND A HALF!

I feel the same about those jatts who dominate the Panjabi political scene bringing in their own negative cultural foibles to the panth. Truth is that jatts have a DEEP DEEP long standing hatred of jaats like chuhray/chammars. I've heard my own jat friends going on about this for decades now. So no need for the usual suspects to try and deny it. It's some deep rooted, village level bull that has been going on for God knows how long (preSikh I'm sure), and still continues to this day. Probably over land ownership jealousy and trying to keep advantages in this respect plus that jatt obsession with status. Anyway, I realise that we will never ever agree and that given how deeply rooted the dynamics involved in this are, I'm not at all surprised that jaats will go and look after their own interests by creating their separate institutes or leaving the faith all together. It's sad but understandable. Kick a person down long enough and they are fools not to leave. Trying to equate external oppression like 'Moghul on Sikh' to caste based 'Sikh on Sikh' oppression is just another madness. What excuse do the Sikhs doing this have exactly? You keep bringing all this historical stuff when I'm talking about today and tomorrow! And in every thing you say you just let the people who are really behind the long standing bad blood and supremacist crap off the hook. I'd call it whitewashing. Sometimes, it's our own people who are in the wrong too. The quicker more people realise this the better. In anycase, until we do, I'm sure we will continue to wallow in the petty, rural nightmare we've created for ourselves as a society in our homeland. Just try and resist the urge to blame outsiders for all our problems. We make plenty of our own. At least here you admit it's going on, albeit in a roundabout way. I don't ever think we are going to be on the same page on this issue.

You can say the same about Jatts who have introduced wild drinking to Panjabis and have influenced the other communities with ostentatious shows of wealth/status at weddings etc. which is now leading to some of them committing suicide because they can't keep up the charade. Plus I personally think that nasha loving was the precursor to the rampant drug problem we now see in Panjab. Plenty of Ravidasias voted for Panjabi too by the way. Plus you have to ask, why exactly were some them trying to 'get back at jatts' as you put it. Again, you're looking at the consequences of oppression and not the causal factors of the consequences. In any case, I don't think it is worth talking about it to you. It's frustrating. You seem to have done exactly what I was talking about before. Saying "but what about x, y, z" doesn't change what is going on right now in our key institutes, bringing out the situation of the 70s (which I don't know of) to somehow use it to play down what is going on today is just weak in my opinion... If some of my words seem direct and harsh, they are meant to be because I'm so tired of pussyfooting around this topic. It has to be squarely faced by all of us and is too important to worry about ruffling a few feathers over.

I'm not worried about them. I'm more concerned about the fat farmers sitting in our institutes. Ravidasias have been marginalised for long enough in the panth to have no real power/influence over it. They aren't the ones corrupting our key institutes in our homeland. They aren't doing anything at all if you think about it. So we can eliminate them as some root cause of the burgeoning load of Sikh/Panjab 'issues'. What we can say is that an indeterminate amount of them are trying to break ties with us now. No doubt their exclusion has played a big part in this. What's the point about talking about what approach to take anyway, when we (as in the majority of the panth across caste) aren't even seeing the same thing. Lumpen sections of jatts are happy as hell with having their own sitting in power regardless of the corruption and non progressive nature of the 'leadership'. That's the first thing that has to be acknowledged in my opinion. Those people in power are put there by people amongst us whose interests they serve. They don't serve any progressive panthic agenda. The first thing we need to do is openly identify what the hell it is we are looking at. But some people shy away from this because it is their own people doing it and they don't want to admit it (not talking about about anyone personally here, just generally).

Are you kidding me. Those lunatics don't care a monkeys if you start quoting bani. If anything that makes them laugh. As long as they maintain their perceived superiority they couldn't care less. People have been telling them that this caste thing is against Sikhi for generations - believe you me - still they persist. Try and see yourself if what you are suggesting has any effect on them. I think you'll find in the long run it doesn't. That's the problem with your approach, and all the others that have previously been tried, they are too 'softly softly'. As for the Ravidasias - do you honestly expect overnight change in their new found freedom from a now blatantly casteist Sikh community? They've only just started. We'll have to wait a few generations before we can assess the impact of their move. One thing seems certain though, with a clearly Jatt dominated 'parbandhak committee' siphoning off fortunes in golak contributions to historical Gurdwaras in Panjab, Ravidasias (or anyone else for that matter) stand a better chance of gathering funds to use for their own communities upliftment going it alone. If (that is) they manage to keep corruption at bay, then they would have a chance of doing positive things for their community with the money they collect. Even forming beautiful new mandirs for themselves would help them as it would be a sign of their own prosperity etc. Otherwise the money they contribute is just going to end up in the plump bellies of the usual suspects in Panjab. They would do well to notice the Delhi 'Parbhadik Committee' too, just to see a good example of another failed breakaway from the SGPC. But that example doesn't really translate well because the Khatri community that seem to dominate that organisation don't really seem to have suffered from the type of poverty and exclusion that other Panjabi groups do? Plus they have a long history of being business men and a solid infrastructure arising from this.

So why are you not rightfully focusing on these 'lunatics' instead of their fed up victims? Do you not see that what you are doing is blaming people at the wrong end of the chain of events? Go the other way to the source of the problem not the outcomes of their lack of humanity. Plus, if you experienced being ejected from simply visiting a Ramgarhia Gurdwara like you mentioned, you should definitely contact Satkaar or someone about it. I've seen a bit of caste based snobbery in gurdwaras in my time, but never anyone being refused entry over it. Sure people have sneered, made unpleasant comments, purposefully been made to feel uncomfortable etc. but never have I seen any one being told to leave...yet.

I know that not drawing your shaster thing is just some recent innovation that some Amritdhari probably (understandably) invented because they were sick and tired of people asking to see their kirpan unsheathed. lol If this was anything older you could pretty much guarantee it would have been mentioned in some rehats as this is exactly the type of stuff they would typically cover.

When meditating I noticed that the breathing can really slow down. What are the physiological effects of this? I think one may be that it lowers blood pressure? Is this true?

This old classic! Never to take a kirpan out of a sheath unless you are going to draw blood!

I don't agree with some of you at all. Sometimes the lack of understanding/empathy shown in understanding the effects of systematically abusing, putting down and disempowering a people due to some perceived inherent defect you show is staggering. Look at how whites have done it to American natives. All in all though, I think many of you are just a bunch of conservatives who are unable to use their minds to even imagine a fairer Sikh society. All your doing is blaming the oppressed for rejecting their oppression. The biggest shame is it coming from 'Sikh' sources when so much of our heritage was designed to be against just this type of thing. All some of you do really is excuse the arseholes in our community. If wider society was made up of people like you dark people would still be forced to ride at the back of buses in the US and all that type of crap. Just so you know, if I was constantly on the receiving end of negative abuse I'd leave whatever community I belonged to for a more fairer one myself. More so if the community i belonged to liked to harp on about its so-called egalitarian nature. But I'm not in that position thankfully but that doesn't mean I can't empathise. I think people like you are exactly why we don't progress as a community and grow. Thanks for that.

Eighteenth pauri: Overall Meaning: ਅਸੰਖ ਮੂਰਖ ਅੰਧ ਘੋਰ ॥ Asankh Moorakh Andh ghor.. In the creation of the timeless being there are countless great fools (the most foolish imaginable) ਅਸੰਖ ਚੋਰ ਹਰਾਮਖੋਰ ॥ Asankh Chor Haraamkhor.. In the creation of the timeless being there are countless thieves who eat (steal) the property of others Word By Word: ਅਸੰਖ -Asankh -uncountable, infinite ਮੂਰਖ -Moorakh -fool, idiot ਅੰਧ -ਘੋਰ -(two words) Andh Cghoar-great 'first calibre ,first class fools, fools who are blind to reality ਮੂਰਖ ਅੰਧ ਘੋਰ-Moorakh Andh Cghoar-the most foolish of fools, fools of the first calibre, fools who are blind to reality ਅਸੰਖ -Asankh -uncountable, infinite ਚੋਰ --Choar- thief/robber ਹਰਾਮਖੋਰ - Haraamkhoar-those who eat the property of others/those who eat (steal) other's wealth In a Nutshell : In the creation of the Timeless Being there are many fools of a great calibre, there are many thieves who steal and use the wealth of others A Little Deeper: God's creation is limitless. If we just counted the amount of great fools they would be limitless. If we just counted the amount of thieves who keep on stealing and eat the property of others then this number would be limitless. Overall Meaning: ਅਸੰਖ ਅਮਰ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਹਿ ਜੋਰ ॥ Asankh Amar Kari Jaahi Joar.. Countless are those who spend their lives as tyrants giving orders to others, and they leave their lives in the midst of oppressing others by force ਅਸੰਖ ਗਲਵਢ ਹਤਿਆ ਕਮਾਹਿ ॥ Asankh Galwad Hatiaaa Kamaahi.. Countless are the murderers who spend their lives cutting throats of others and they leave the world as murderers Word By Word: ਅਸੰਖ -Asankh -uncountable, infinite ਅਮਰ -Amar -hukam(u),order,will ਕਰਿ -Kar(i) -to do ਜਾਹਿ -Jaaheh -to be done/to have done ਕਰਿ ਜਾਹਿ-Kar(i) Jaaheh - Keep doing all one's life, in the end of life to have kept doing (to have fully spent all one's life doing), to leave after spending all one's life doing ਜੋਰ - Joar- by push, by force, pushing around ਅਸੰਖ -Asankh -uncountable, infinite ਗਲਵਢ -Galwad -a cut throat, murderer, killer ਹਤਿਆ -Hateh(a)aa -murder, killing ਕਮਾਹਿ - Kamaah(i)-to do,to have done,to do over and over ਹਤਿਆ ਕਮਾਹਿ-Hateh(a)aa Kamaah(i)-those who keep on cutting other's throats ,those who keep killing others, those who over and over again murder others In a Nutshell : There are many (countless) types of people who give orders to others by force and in the end they leave the world like this (in the midst of this lifestyle).There are many murderers who cut others throats. A Little Deeper: God's creation is limitless. If we counted just the number of those who give their orders to others, those tyrants who rule by force and leave the world in the midst of this , that number would be countless. If we just counted the murderers who cut the throats of others and continue murdering and leave the world in this way than that number too would be uncountable. Overall Meaning: ਅਸੰਖ ਪਾਪੀ ਪਾਪੁ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਹਿ ॥ Asankh Paapee Paapu Kari Jaahi.. The number of sinners who sin over and over is countless ਅਸੰਖ ਕੂੜਿਆਰ ਕੂੜੇ ਫਿਰਾਹਿ ॥ Asankh Koorhiaaar Koorhay Firaahi.. Countless are those liars who are filled with the spirit of falsehood, those who remain busy wrapped up in their lies Word By Word:- ਅਸੰਖ -Asankh –uncountable, infinite ਪਾਪੀ -Paapee –sinner, one who sins ਪਾਪੁ -Paap(u) -to sin ਕਰਿ -Kar(i) -to do ਜਾਹਿ - Jaaheh-to be done/to have done ਪਾਪੁ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਹਿ - Paap(u) Kar(i) Jaaheh-to leave after having sinned, to sin all one’s life and die still sinning, to be a sinner till the end, to leave this world after spending all one's life sinning ਅਸੰਖ -Asankh -uncountable, infinite ਕੂੜਿਆਰ -Koordheh(a)aar - those humans whose hearts are rooms (homes ) of falsehood, those humans within whose heart is koordh (falsehood), those who are filled with the spirit of lying (falsehood). ਕੂੜੇ -Koordhay -within falsehood, within falseness, inside lies, inside falsehood (rujay) ਫਿਰਾਹਿ - Fehraaheh-those who wander in falseness, those who roam around in falseness, those stuck roaming in falseness, those who are busy in falsehood. In a Nutshell : There are many sinful people who sin and sin all their lives and in the end they leave this world still sinners, still committing their sins. There are many liars, with the spirit of falsehood, they remain busy in their lies. A Little Deeper: God's creation is limitless, If we just counted the number of those sinners who sin over and over and keep sinning and leave the world wrapped in their sin than just this number alone would be countless. If we counted the number of those who lie and keep lying and are busy lying and are wrapped in their falsehood then this number alone too would be countless. Overall Meaning: ਅਸੰਖ ਮਲੇਛ ਮਲੁ ਭਖਿ ਖਾਹਿ ॥ Asankh Malaych Mal(u) Bhakeh Khaaheh.. Countless are those with a filthy mind who eat dirt (fill themselves with filthy thoughts over and over) ਅਸੰਖ ਨਿੰਦਕ ਸਿਰਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਭਾਰੁ ॥ Asankh Nindak Siri Karhi Bhaaru.. Countless are those who slander others and (due to this slander) they put the weight of other's shortcomings over their own head. Word By Word: ਅਸੰਖ -Asankh -uncountable, infinite ਮਲੇਛ -Malaych those with a dirty mind, those with dirty thoughts, those with a filthy mindset ਮਲੁ -Mal(u) -dirt, filth ਭਖਿ -Bhakeh ਖਾਹਿ – Khaaheh - eat ਭਖਿ ਖਾਹਿ-Bhakeh Kaaheh- Like a hungry person who runs to food and keeps eating (as if they have never seen food , eat like there’s no tomarrow, eat with a passion) - Bakh and Kaaheh are both rooted in sanskrit , both words mean eat- In the third pauri as well there is an example like this which is the phrase Khaahe Khaahe, where we see that both verbs are used together.*** So basically Bhakeh means eat and Khaaheh also means eat. Together they mean to eat and eat endlessly. ਅਸੰਖ -Asankh -uncountable, infinite ਨਿੰਦਕ -Nindak -slanderer ਸਿਰਿ -Sireh -on the head ਕਰਹਿ -Karheh -to do/to take/in this sense to carry ਭਾਰੁ - Bhaar(u)-weight ਸਿਰਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਭਾਰੁ -Sireh Karheh Bhaar(u)-to carry weight on one's head, to take weight on one's head In a Nutshell : (and) there are many with (khoatee) intellect and they go on eating dirt (meaning akhaaj). Many slanderers (after slandering) go on putting the weight of this slander on their own heads. A Little Deeper: God's creation is limitless. If we were only to count the number of those who have a filthy mind and eat filth as their ration than this number itself would be uncountable. If we just counted the amount of people who slander others (and put the weight of this slander, the weight of others avgun on their own head) than that number would be limitless. If we were just to count the amount of people who slander others and take the weight of their shortcomings upon their own head (by slandering them) then that number alone is infinite. Here Guru Naanak Dev Ji does not want to be self righteous or have a holier than thou attitude. Overall Meaning: ਨਾਨਕੁ ਨੀਚੁ ਕਹੈ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ Naanaku Neech(u) Kahai Veechaar(u).. Poor Lowly Naanak (this is Guru Sahib’s humility) gives this bare attempt at understanding ਵਾਰਿਆ ਨ ਜਾਵਾ ਏਕ ਵਾਰ ॥ Waareh(a)aa Na Jaavaa (E)ayk Waar.. I can't even once be a sacrifice to you.. Word By Word: ਨਾਨਕੁ -Naanaku -Guru Naanak ਨੀਚੁ -Neech(u) -low, lowly,poor (wealthwise/virtue wise),poor as in misfortunate ਨਾਨਕੁ ਨੀਚੁ -Naanaku Neech(u) - Guru Naanak the lowly, Poor Guru Naanak (Guru Naanak Dev Ji just uses the word Naanak not Guru infront) ਕਹੈ -Kahai -to say ਵੀਚਾਰੁ - Veechaar(u)-description ਵਾਰਿਆ -Vaariaaa - sacrifice/to be a sacrifice ਨ -Na -negation word/can't ਜਾਵਾ -Jaawaa -to go ਵਾਰਿਆ ਨ ਜਾਵਾ-Waareh(a)aa Na JaaWaa- I can not be a sacrifice, ਏਕ -(E)ayk -one ਵਾਰ - Vaar-time In a Nutshell : Oh Formless Lord. So many more are stuck in bad actions (works), what is my strength that I can fully describe your creation? Poor Naanak gives (this bare, close to nothing) understanding. Guru ji says that he is no better than these people and calls himself lowly. This is the way saints are . They are full of great humility because no human is perfect. If we were perfect why would we need God. All virtues come through God's grace. Humility is the essence of virtue so Guru Ji is placing himself beneath all by calling himself neechu. Guru Ji says what strength do I have to describe your creation. I can not even once be a sacrifice to you. ** A note about Naanak(u) Neech(u)- In this line the word Naanak(u) is in the subject case at it is a masculine word. The word Neech(u) is its adjective and it is also masculine and it is used with the word Naanak(u) for that reason. SatGuru Ji is calling himself lowly, this is his spirit of griebee, spirit of humility and we see this spirit in other places as well. For example (੧) ਮੈ ਕੀਤਾ ਨ ਜਾਤਾ ਹਰਾਮਖੋਰ। ਹਉ ਕਿਆ ਮੁਹੁ ਦੇਸਾ ਦੁਸਟੁ ਚੋਰ। ਨਾਨਕੁ ਨੀਚੁ ਕਹੈ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ। ਧਾਣਕ ਰੂਪਿ ਰਹਾ ਕਰਤਾਰ।੪।੨੯। (ਸਿਰੀ ਰਾਗ ਮਹਲਾ ੧)। (1) Mai Keeta Na Jaataa Jaraamkhoar. Hao(u) Keh(a)aa Muh(u) Daysaa Dust(u) Choar. Naanak(u) Neech(u) Kahai Beechaar(u). Dhaank Roopeh Rahaa Kartaar.4.29.(Sehree Raag Mahlaa 1). ੨) ਜੁਗੁ ਜੁਗੁ ਸਾਚਾ ਹੈ ਭੀ ਹੋਸੀ। ਕਉਣੁ ਨ ਮੂਆ ਕਉਣੁ ਨ ਮਰਸੀ। ਨਾਨਕੁ ਨੀਚੁ ਕਹੈ ਬੇਨੰਤੀ, ਦਰਿ ਦੇਖਹੁ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਈ ਹੇ।੧੬।੨। (ਮਾਰੂ ਮਹਲਾ ੧, ਸੋਹਲੇ)। Jug(u) Jug(u) Saachaa Hai Bhee Hoasee. Ko(u)n(u) Na Moo(a)aa Ko(u)n(u) Na Marsee. Naanak(u) Neech(u) Kahai Bayn(n)tee Dareh Daysh(u) Lehv Laa(e)ee Hay.16.2.(Maaroo Mahlaa 1, Soajlay). ((੩) ਕਥਨੀ ਕਰਉ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਓਰੁ। ਗੁਰੁ ਪੁਛਿ ਦੇਖਿਆ ਨਾਹੀ ਦਰੁ ਹੋਰੁ। ਦੁਖੁ ਸੁਖੁ ਭਾਣੈ ਤਿਸੈ ਰਜਾਇ। ਨਾਨਾਕੁ ਨੀਚੁ ਕਹੈ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਇ।੮।੪। (ਗਉੜੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੧)। Kthnee Krou Na Aaawai oru. Guru Puchh Daykhiaaa Naahee Dru Horu. Dukhu Sukhu Bhaanai tisai Rjaaei. Naanaaku Neechu Khai liw laaei. . . (Gourhee Mhlaa 1) Line by Line ਜੋ ਤੁਧੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਸਾਈ ਭਲੀ ਕਾਰ ॥ Joa Tudh(u) Bhaavai Saa(e)ee Bhalee Kaar.. Oh Lord, whatever pleases your will, that doing, that action, that work is good ਤੂ ਸਦਾ ਸਲਾਮਤਿ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ॥੧੮॥ Too Sadaa Salaamat(i) Nirnakaar..18.. O Nirnakaar , O formless being Lord , you are eternal and never-ending , you are the one who will always exist Word By Word: ਜੋ -Joa -whatever, that which ਤੁਧੁ -Tudh(u) -you ਭਾਵੈ -Bhaavai -pleases ਸਾਈ -Saa(e)ee -that ਭਲੀ -Bhalee -good ਕਾਰ - Kaar-work,doing,action ਸਾਈ ਕਾਰ -Saa(e)ee Kaar-that action, the work, that doing ਤੂ -Too -you ਸਦਾ -Sada -always,forever ਸਲਾਮਤਿ -Salaamat(i) -eternal/neverending/always existent/never dying/one who will always exist and live on ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ -Nehrankaar- O Lord, O God, Lord/God /Formless one In a Nutshell : Oh timeless being , I am not capable of being a sacrifice to you even once! Meaning my power (strength ) is very limited, Oh Formless Lord! You are never ending ! You will always remain eternal ! Whatever seems good to you, that doing, that work is good(meaning it is good to live in your divine will).18. A Little Deeper: Oh God whatever pleases you is good. Whatever you do is always good. You keep creation in harmony and everything happens for a reason! Your will controls all, life,death,birth, the rock cycle, water cycle, phases of the moon, development of beings, all these are in your divine hukam. You keep the universes in equilibrium through your grand hukam. Your hukam is always for the best. Whatever makes you happy is good. You play this world drama yet remain unattached. Oh formless Lord, you will live forever, you are beyond the limits of time! This world drama may end but you will always exist! God will always exist and create worlds and planets and things beyond our imagination! God is grander than anything and his creation is limitless! Whatever makes you happy God, that alone is good, you are never-ending never dying and beyond any shape or form!

Although I do believe this is a factor in some of those situations you speak of, I think it is a GROSS simplification of the multiple factors that can and do lead to what you are talking about. I can also point out the scores of girls from religious/conservative homes who slut about like animals on heat at the first taste of freedom (usually at uni). Sometimes you see these girls when they are younger at the Gurdwara, and the depressed 'clueless' look on their faces says it all. They look like they have hardly ever experienced anything outside of what limited stuff their family allow. (See the piece by a janani below for an inside view). All in all, I think there a number of sometimes complex issues that leads to girls doing a runner with some lover boy. It isn't just in families that drink, although this doesn't condone that pisshead mentality. There is a mosaic of social, psychological and emotional issues at play in my opinion. Yes, this is one factor - the hypocrisy. But it happens in religious families who all of a sudden become casteist, when it comes to marriage time (i.e. the majority). Plus our own girls are frequently little spoilt 'princesses' and often up their own arse because they haven't been taught proper boundaries by doting, status obsessed parents. This will be controversial but it is foolish to think that we can simply throw doing more bani, going Gurdwara etc. at complicated, multilayered social phenomena. Anyway, now we've cleared that. I will add something to the general point about Sikhs and alcohol. I think it is an area where I have had much experience as I worked in and around the Panjabi dominated alcohol trade as a youth and have seen many alcohol loving Sikhs (including those in the family) up close over a long time.

This one definitely European and not Panjabi. I remember getting loudly bollocked for this as a kid in Panjabi school. I thought my lot were superstitious but judging from some of what you guys have posted I guess superstition wasn't as rampant in the family as I thought! That fish and milk one may have some basis but we have to acknowledge the fact that goray frequently have milk based sauces with fish. From what I can remember it it related to that skin condition where you start to look like you have white man's skin in blotches. By the way, thanks to most of you for not keeping up with the numbering convention I started......

Another classic I remembered. 5) Being left handed is the sign of some sort of bad omen and must be beaten out of the child.

I got the idea from another thread. Seeing as these things seem to change over time, I thought it would be interesting (and a laugh) to leave a record of the kind of behams (right or wrong as they may be), that we get exposed to as Panjabi Sikhs. I'll kick it off: 1) Being prevented from leaving the house to go anywhere when you've just sneezed. 2) Being prevented from leaving the house at 'a quarter to' any time. * Sometimes in a dire emergency when one has to leave despite the above, having a pinch of sugar placed in your mouth seems to negate the power of these omens. 3) Not having milk with fish because it effects your skin 4) Having to place any footwear you've removed neatly side by side (i..e not untidily or on top of each other), because your money disappears otherwise... please contribute and continue the numbering system used above....

You're a proper Indian mate. Always accepting any shite that goes on like it is natural.

That's just elaborate whattaboutery from yourself. Bhai Gurdas's vaar on the subject unequivocally points at Sikhs paying no heed to these things. Unless I read it wrong? Whilst you on the other hand as espousing the opposite position. Whom should we believe? I'm not saying that there isn't possibly any effect from certain influences of the planets, I'm just trying to make the point that from purely a Sikh theological perspective, from what I can see, we seem to have been instructed to give these things a miss. Personally speaking, having witnessed all sorts of weird and wonderful 'behams' from apnay (especially the bibian!), I'm happy with that (being prevented from leaving the house just because you sneezed or when the clock is at 'a quarter to' are some of my favorites). We could do with more plain grounded commonsense in the panth - not less of it mate. Giving the astrologers a miss, doesn't mean that your own spirituality has to suffer. I'm sure getting stuck into all that type of stuff has its own consequences anyway. Anyway we digress, but I hope the point that desis have their own strange relationships with hijray, khusray, gandoos etc. has been made, seeing as certain brothers were going on like this stuff was above them and only an issue in the west. So let's refocus the original topic: Can a guy be a Sikh and a practising homo? One thing I caution against is people jumping in with the kind of conviction that suggests they have personally heard what the Sikh position in all this is from dasmesh pita himself. This goes to both sides of the debate. What I would say is that, undoubtedly it has been going on in the panth already, but undercover. Maybe the real question to focus on will be "What will be the wider effects of more and more people from Sikh backgrounds openly admitting their homosexuality be on the panth?" In the west will we eventually face a homo couple trying to take an institute like a Gurdwara to court for refusing to marry them for instance? Will we get renegade 'liberal' Gurdwaras that will perform an Anand Karaj for a gay couple. I think this has already happened with the 3HO lot?

So on one hand you are espousing respect for this 'omenology' and on the other you are apparently castigating the lady-boy types who are considered to be one of these very 'omens'? Plus calling omenology a science is complete rubbish. You ever read this about the subject? http://www.searchgurbani.com/bhai_gurdas_vaaran/vaar/5/pauri/8/line/3

Okay, so we can say generally Panjabi Sikh society seems to accept homo, transgendered and transvestite type men on the basis that they can act as talismans and bring good luck..... hmmmm And we think western society is messed up with its own homo position.....

And they did exactly that a few years later under Ranjit Singh. Then got stung hard by wasps, followed by Pakistanis, and then Hindustanis.....and are still trying to chart a solid path in a new global reality.

True. But that pendu mentality is hurting us now, and we REALLY need to be sharp as f##k with what seems to be looming on the horizon.

But they still seem okay with them at weddings or other celebrations?