dalsingh101

So do you think our own forefathers did this sometime in the last 500 years? No hang on, yours definitely didn't, they just tried to convert the religion along the lines of their own previous peasant belief system and fast forward a few centuries - you are still at it. lol PS - Cherie Blair's sister probably converted out of guilt, knowing that her brother in law (and by implication her sister) are directly responsible for the deaths of God knows how many innocent everyday sullay including nyanay and jananis. But I guess even these people deserve it in your eyes hey Tony?

Thanks for letting me know. If true, he's definitely off my 'heroes list' now. Actually some evidence for your assertion would be nice. Plus what the hell are you? A pro Anglo-imperialism jatt?

Nice little find. Incidentally, also a very good example of early, modern Sikh historiography from the father of the field. Enjoy! http://www.apnaorg.com/books/english/banda-bahadar/book.php?fldr=book

Been trying to keep amritvela lately and finding myself COMPLETELY knackered by late evening (say 7.30 onwards). Literally almost dozing off when I'm doing Rehras! Any advice from you experienced people?

Definitely do that review. The author is current doing the sequel on the lion-wasp war part 2. I hope he doesn't sell out and take the easy 'whiteys apologist' route with it. Cunningham called a white spade a spade, so there is no excuse for our guys to pussy out in this respect. Fingers crossed x lol

You're touching on so many issues in the last few posts that we have to break them down in order to have any chance of exploring them properly. Let's start with the issue of culture, because it is the most contentious issue right now and one that has the potential to seriously split the quom yet again. Some of these ideas about to be discussed may be uncomfortable and unpalatable for certain people, but we must discuss openly nonetheless: You spoke of 'our culture' and how it had been subverted by the Brits and whilst I fully agree with this - the statement also opens up a potentially headache creating pandora's box in my opinion. I've always thought culture meant something that has precedent and widespread acceptance with the group of people associated with it. So, at the point prior of white intrusion into our nation can we really clearly define what 'our culture' was? Now comes the uncomfortable findings of recent research, I know that some of the criticisms leveled at the Singh Sabha lehar in terms of developing Hinduphobia (through British encouragement), look to be true. I do strongly believe Sikhs are a distinct quom, but that being said, pretending we have no links to Indic culture which preceded Sikhi is over doing it to the max. Now that I've become familiar with some of our nitnem prayers, there is no way anyone can deny the references to Indic mythological figures in our own scripture. Plus we know from the preBrit literature than our ancestors didn't have the strong antiHindu feelings that characterise some of us today. The Dasam Granth is the biggest testimony of this. Plus we have a lot of other references in literature such as Panth Prakash, Suraj Prakash. Other evidence such as motifs on flags and puratan imagery paint a very different picture to what is pushed today. So what is Sikh culture exactly? I mean as in uniquely Sikh. To my mind this starts with our bani, from Japji Sahib onwards. With regards to other stuff like kirtan, simran etc. we also share this with bhakti movement. Our political independent political stance and republican nature too was uniquely Sikh, as was our inclusiveness. If you read that new book by Sidhu I referred you to in another thread, you'll see that the republican nature appears to have turned into open hostility and belligerence towards the ruling elite in the run up to the wasp wars. The book makes the point that really it was only antiKhalsa sentiment and opportunism by the leadership (which truly is the grossest of understatements in this case), that delivered the kingdom to whitey. Whether this haughtiness was the cause for the traitorous leadership or whether this was because the Khalsa could smell a rat even back then is anyone's guess. But the blind way in which the Khalsa followed the traitors to the end, suggests that they either didn't have a clue about it or knew and accepted their leadership anyway, which is one weirdarse thing to comprehend..... Anyway I digress, personally I feel we have some way to go before we are anywhere near having a general consensus in the community of exactly what our culture is. The discovery of possible overzealousness on part of the SS lehar has the potential to shake things up (again) in the community with uncertainty. My point is before we make any moves, the first job is to reset our community and historical narrative in light of the tsunami of new understanding we are gaining today, and jettison the older, useless narratives (like the "British sepoy" one being resurrected in certain British Singh Sabha Gurdwaras right now). The first thing that needs to be fought for and captured is apnay's minds and hearts. No one can even contemplate anything before that?

You should get that new book by Sidhu, he goes a top rate job on the first war with the wasps. Although he could've put the boot into their imperialist motives and bullshit a bit more. Still, it's better than all the whitewashed accounts by Gough etc.

I thought the chances of my suggestion of a Panjabi language section had good chances of materialising...but alas N30 did not relent.

My bad, his name was Jawahir Singh. Notice how his name gets pretty much wiped off the slate of our itihaas post wasp intrusion.

I think his name was Jwala Singh Nalwa. Let's not forget how whitey took his jagir away afterwards and probably gave it to some arse licking, cooperative 'son of a farmer'.

I have been doing a lot of research into this lately and it is a big topic that it's too late to get into now. Central to this is exactly what you think 'our culture' was pre-invasion. We are going to have to get to the bottom of that controversial matter conclusively before we can even think of moving forward with this matter. We'll pick this up tomorrow or something..

Look when I say Panjabi I guess I generally mean Gurmukhi plus the spoken language. You should learn about the Turks, apparently the Romanised script that Ataturk used to replace the original Arab style one means that now even the most patriotic Turks are incapable of reading their older literature and people are quickly losing understandings of the grammatical structure of their old literature. They are in fact alienated from their itihaas. But maybe I overestimate how important this is? I mean I doubt many of the 'proud' English Defence League tuttay have any desire or ability to read Chaucer or any of their older classical literature? Have you now gone and imagined that we will have a Sikh world where everyone or even the majority are keshdhari or amritdhari or something? Face it, we aren't going to be much different from any other faith with diversity in this respect, plus that guy is more useful than a million poorly educated kesh having Sikhs sitting in pinds dreaming of coming over here to work as a labourer on a building site - in my opinion. Sikhi will be preserved by people practising it and facilitating its practice. Even a friendly nonSikh (with no hidden agenda) who has a healthy interest in Panjabi/Gurmukhi linguistics/literature can be inspiring and useful. Here you condemn a man who is clearly passionate and highly competent in the modern field of applying technology to linguistic issues. There aint no pleasing some people.

I am being objective. The way they are dealing with a better equipped, modern force is impressive. Just talking from a tactical perspective. Whitey is demoralised and they're sending their boys back in boxes or legless regularly. You're not getting it. They are achieving (so far anyway), what Guru Hargobind did against the Moghuls. By this I mean breaking th aura of invincibility the imperialists like to project and rely on to cow others down. Given the disparity in resources that is something anyone with an interest in military tactics would find fascinating. Plus you know the Taliban pay their foot soldiers better money than the invaders don't you? I'd say this is more of a paki thing than a sullah one myself. You're reading me wrong. I'm not suggesting copying them. I'm just acknowledging their success, that's all. Plus you highlight something important there: they frequently have a superiority complex over the west, whilst apnay seem to have an inferiority complex in this respect, especially towards Anglos. Obviously it stems from the colonial experience as all accounts point at a confident, belligerent Khalsa pre-annexation. Yeah, but now we've got crusty and conservative. Look at how flexibly and quickly we organised ourselves before. From jathas to misls, the sarbat Khalsa, Budha Dal, Taruna Dal. Plus we are arseholes between ourselves unless we are being exterminated, face it. Islam. I think because they are already accustomed to rigidity and highly prescribed practices and a demanding, guilt inspiring God, hence the transition seems natural? Plus the style of the Quran is probably quite close to their own interpretation of the bible? It goes further in prescription I imagine and they don't have the issue with the proliferation of paedo priests which must be a serious head shaft for them, being as it takes place at the very core of the faiths highest institutes?

That's not really true is it. How many of the panj piaray were non Panjabis? How many of the others that formed the original Khalsa came from outside Panjab? What about Banda Singh? Many of our customs are complete shite that we need to flush down the loo. Foremost is jaat paat buckwas, then we have stupid dowry system, questionably outdated marriage practices, materialism, a rurality that frequently makes us into provincial clowns obsessed with all things 'farm'. A mentality that even the biggest dickhead in the village is some born 'sardar'. Self respect that means you kill your daughter for marrying another Sikh without your approval. Drug excesses, alcohol excesses, idolising sons who too often turn out to be spoilt brat dickwads....killing unborn girls, no value for education for anything outside of wealth generation.....and that's just off the top of my head. We need big structured and organised change to take place, not more pendu conservatism. It has developed linguistically but militarily we are clowns now. Culturally we are the 'exuberant' 'colourful' dhol people.....

Let's be honest Islam does have some positive points in amongst its more nutjob elements. I would say a proportionally higher percentage of sullay are committed to their faith compared to most other faiths. They at least used to have high art, literature, mathematics, astronomy and architecture amongst themselves like in Persia and Bagdad. When they get on, they do really well. When they don't its bombings in the marketplace time! They have plurality with Sunnis, Shias and Sufis. They are TRULY a multicultural faith. However we may feel about it, militarily speaking, they've managed to bring serious drama to the white devil and his military machine in Afghanistan. They variably don't compromise their faith easily to please outsiders. It is what it is, and damn what outsiders may think of it for many of them. We need to be careful not to wrongly equate dodgy Paks we encounter with all sullay in my opinion - simply because it skews our perspective of reality. I noticed a lot of Roman Catholics converting and saying that they felt it was natural progression. Curious.

I honestly believe they are symbiotically linked right now. My ability to understand Panjabi helps immeasurably in reading prayers. Had I had to learn from scratch I probably would have given up? They say to destroy a people first destroy their language. Unless we go down the route of doing some authoritative King James style translation of SGGS ji - which I hope not. Is the reality that we will end up like almost every other faith with a whole spectrum of people under the banner ranging from the hardcore orthodox, lax moderates, cultural Sikhs etc. - heck, what am I talking about, we're already there! Yes, we will have lots of non Panjabi/Gurmukhi speaking reading Sikhs in future. Wonder how this will effect the panth? Will these guys eventually drift off into some other quom in a few generations?

Well worth a watch. Was scary to hear the idea that Panjabi could be a dead language in a few decades. Everyone do their bit to make sure this isn't the case guys.

The levels of infiltration in outfits was astronomical.

Looks like the assassin is more popular than the dead fellow: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/garlands-for-killer-as-punjab-leader-is-buried-2177181.html Seems like the Paks are imitating the 'Singh assassin' style.

Whitey sees potential threats everywhere. Schizo bastards. If there wasn't a threat, they'd make one up.....

Everyones heard that one. And the one about Allah being written in a tomato...... or was it an aubergine?

Chinese are impressive. And yes, I know they can be pukkay haram-zaday to their citizens. But still they are impressive. You should all drink more green tea too, to combat cholesterol. Maybe China will bring drama to whitey Saxon?

Mate it isn't only around here that I've seen converts. Wherever I've worked I've met some. When I was at university (I've been a few times) I've met them. All my friends who've been to prison have told me that there are loads there. I'm not saying they aren't converting for a variety of reasons. Some convert for ideological reasons, many for their partners, some for political reasons, some for spiritual, some because they are easily led and brainwashed, some because they love the solidarity and acceptance they give to new converts. Many black people in prison do as a rejection of whiteness. Plus, their retention is good. I can see that when I occasionally go Gurdwara at Amritvela and pass the mosques and see how they are packed at that time and then walk into a virtually empty Gurdwara, despite there being loads of Sikhs here. I notice the British raised apnay hardly go regularly, the people that do are freshy pendus and bajoorag lok. With the masjids, loads of people are British sullay, young and old. Tony we can't keep ignoring the fact that our lot are doing a crap job at preaching to our own leave preaching to outsiders. It's like you've accepted low standards for us?

Did you guys forget it was Clinton who put pressure on India to ease up on Panjab way back when? If anyone needs to be cussed, it is successive British governments more than any American one. These jerks just turned a blind eye to it all, whilst claiming to be the 'friends' of Sikhs. They say you can tell who your real friends are in times of need... and when it was needed they general swallowed and propagated the 'fundamentalist' 'terrorists' line here. Kdsingh was right when he made the statement that in reality no country is truly bothered about human rights abuses. Westerns nations have just learned to use such issues for political mileage and point scoring as well as propaganda for justifying aggressive take overs of foreign lands. They may point a scornful finger and shake their heads in feigned disgust but when it has suited their 'interests', they have never hesitated to do deals with dictators and human rights violators and even help prop them up. In any case, why would any western government want to sour relations with a massive potential market for the sake of a disempowered minority, over religious issues at that? What did Sikhs have to bring to the table? Fresh fruit and veg and dairy products? When I look at it clinically and coldly, it's like the 84 and onwards experience shattered the illusion of our invincibility and starkly brought home the uncomfortable reality of our powerlessness and lack of political clout in the modern scheme of things. If we had any pretensions of being like our 18th century ancestors, who took on and defeated powerful armies and governments of their times, bitter ground realities seem to suggest this is something akin to wishful thinking.