osingh1

Religion may lead one closer to God. But each religion has a different destination. Before Guru Nanak Dev ji Maharaj, bhagats such bhagat kabir ji, bhagat Ramanand ji had reached as far as karam khand. When Guru Nanak Dev ji gave them gurmantar, they were able to reach the highest khand which is Sachkhand and were able to uchaar Dhur ki bani. No other religion mentions Sachkhand, so how can they reach Sachkhand? Muslims aim for jannah, christians aim for heavan. If one is aiming for heavan or jannah how can he reach Sachkhand?Just read description of Jannah in the Quran. Here one recieved wine that does not intoxicate, beatiful gardens etc. Now read sri Jap ji sahib, Saram khand which is the next level up from Gyan Khand cannot even be decribed. Here the the surat and man are changed. In this body we have we can't fully appreciate Saram khand. If one tries to describe this khand he later regrets, such is the beauty of this khand. If we can't even describe Saram khand imagine the greatness of Karam khand and finally Sachkhand. I respect muslims, christians, hindu's etc who strive for mukhti, salvation, heaven etc. Can we at least agree that destination of Gursikhs differs to that of semitic religions, please read their decription of heaven in their respective granths. Jannah is mentioned many times in the Quran. I agree that Hindu dharam is closest to Sikhi when it comes to upper most destination. I truly believe sri Guru Nanak Dev ji maharaj is the highest avtar (please read bhatta de swaiye) then Satguru alone can guide us to the highest destination. Avtars such as Krishan ji, sri Raam Chander ji were not pooran avtars. Sabb te vadda Satgur Nanak, jin kal rakhi meri. rabb rakhe

Wherever violence is used against anybody (sikh, muslim, athiest) we should condemn it and those who are guilty of this crime should be prosecuted. We have to analyse the motive of the media when they publish such articles. If some white people attack somebody, their religious background is never mentioned. You never hear a group of militant, terrorist, extremist, Christians attack so and so. Yet anything involving Asians and their religion is always mentioned, especially muslims. These men may have muslim appearance but inside they are anything but muslim.They have no respect for the Prophet or the teachings of the Quran. A 'True' Sikh, Muslim, Christian, Hindu etc never uses violence like these thugs. They are just thugs and they are not religous at all. Wearing a religous garb is easy, but inside is where it really counts. Inside they are filled with garbage and their actions prove this. As Sikh's we understand that the panj chor influence people's actions. Unless people make an effort to control their inner vices through bhagti, naam ,seva etc Then these types of crimes will continue to happen. Maharaj Mehar Karan

Kam Singh jeeo Do you have any nitmen banis of Jathedar Joginder Singh Vedanti. Maybe you have sri Rehras sahib recording from darbar sahib. I've searched online but can't find any recordings of Jathedar Vedanti. But there must be some recordings around. Especially with recordings of sri Rehras sahib broadcast from Darbar Sahib everyday. Also are there any nitnem bani recordings made of Sant Isher Singh ji or other Rarewale sants. I have listened to rehras recording of baba Teja Singh. Any recordings of Harkhowale sants, maybe Sant Jagjit Singh. Please post a list of nitnem bani's of various gursikhs you have. In ucharan section of site, it seems there are only recordings of mostly Taksal style ucharan ie not using bindis, shasha, zazza. Is this a decision on your part. Just wondering. In one of the recordings of Nihang Gian Ran Singh he uses zazza in sri Jap Ji sahib. But his ucharan is still similar to Taksal. It would also be interesting to listen to ucharan of Udasi, Nirmale and Sevapanthi. If you have any recordings from these samprdai please share. I'm just interested in the different schools of Gurbani ucharan from various schools. Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

I think the speciality of sikhawareness is appreciation of granth's such as suraj parkash and various samprdaia. We need those members to contribute who have knowledge, especially suraj parkash etc. Maybe post a sakhi every week and then do vichar on sakhi and vichar on difficult words. I see a lot of news article's posted but this information is easily available. I think we need to do vichar of gurmat as much as possible. Not that news is bad but I think we need to focus much more on spiritual topics, darshan. bhagti, panj chor etc. rabb rakhe

amardeep jeeo Thanks for the invitation. However I doubt I will make it this year. I hope their is similar event next year. I will definitely attend next year. I feel it is important that we can organize event where we can all get together and do vichar of gurmat face to face. I think most of the posters on this forum are from UK. Therefore it wouldn't be difficult to organize such an event. If it is organized next year I would definitely attend. Once we organize one gathering we can start to make it more regular. I hope we can get a transcript of the lecture's especially TSingh's and Harminder Singh Mann. Pretty advanced topics for the average londoner. lol rabb rakhe

ishvar2 ji Yes I have sent a reply asking which manuscripts had been blocked by SGPC for digitisation. There's really no excuse for not digitising documents. No damage will be caused to documents. SGPC should learn from history, when indian gov burnt library and stole many manuscripts. Also documents can easily be stolen. At least if documents are digitised we can still view them for future reference. SGPC requires a jathedar and members that have good knowledge on gurmat, good jeevan and also should have good knowledge of current technology. Digitisation of documents should have happened long time ago. Also in previous e-mail I asked about 'turning pages' software. As you can see from reply they are currently working on implementing this software. Once this software is implemented it will make reading documents easier and faster. If I get a reply from PDL, I will post it. Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

I recently sent PDL an e-mail regarding their digitisation of manuscripts from SGPC collection, this is response I got: ========================= 'Dear Onkar Singh ji Vahguru ji ka Khalsa Vahguru ji ki Fateh Digitization at SGPC is still in progress. We have almost digitized all the manuscripts we were allowed to digitize. SGPC does not want some of their manuscripts to be digitized. Books and newspapers are being digitized along with manuscripts. SGPC has many saroops of Guru Granth Sahib, details will be made available on PDL website when we upload them. There is some error in the turning pages part of the website. We are working to rectify that. Hopefully by the end of this month we will be in a position to provide some samples. Thank you for writing to us! Help PDL grow, spread the word and help us locate more manuscripts. Regards Parminder Singh IT Manager' ====================== It's disappointing but expected that SGPC didn't allow all of their manuscripts to be digitised. It would be interesting to find out which documents in particular that were stopped from being digitised. Why would they do this? Sikh's can only benefit from reading as much literature as possible, especially rare manuscripts that SGPC have in their collection. Anyway, I'm thankful at least SGPC allowed PDL to digitise a portion of their collection. It's also good to hear that PDL is still actively digitising documents. rabb rakhe

So TSingh and Amardeep will be at this event! I was thinking about writing a post on how one day posters on this forum should get together for a day. It would be good to put faces to various posters on this forum. Maybe one day................ Maharaj kirpa de naal!

I definitely agree with kdsingh. This new mentality of fitting sikhi around a western culuture, when it should be applying those culutral aspects around gurmat. It doesn't matter which culture you are brought up in, one should first and foremost apply the principles of gurmat in his life. Those cultural aspects that go against the spiritual asools should be avoided. Joginder Singh Vedanti is very knowledge in regards to viakaran of gurbani therefore he will be a good teacher. We now live in digital age where one can acccess literature related to any subject from the comfort of their homes via computer and internet. In reality its not really the granhti's, kathavachak's etc fault. Its so easy to blame these people. The real problem is that there is no hunger for spirituality or living a spiritual jeevan especially among the youth. The assar(effect) of kaljug is increasing day by day. If were honest majority of people are absorbed into the illusion of maya. Main topics of discussion among youth will be sports, cars, favourite movies etc. It seems as if the darkness of kaljug is increasing day by day. Look at how much is material is available on internet. You can learn gurmukhi on internet. You read farid kot teeka, prof sahib singh, sant gurbachan singh katha, suraj parkash, various janamsakhi's, jeevan of mahapursh etc. Yet how many people are taking laha from this priceless material. At the end of the day its all in the hands of akal purakh. If he wants you to walk on the path he will guide you. rabb rakhe

Amardeep jeeo That book sounds interesting. Goindwal pothis are invaluable documents. When I visited sri Goindwal sahib last year, I saw the actual place where Guru Arjan Dev ji acquired these pothis from baba Mohan ji, son of Guru Amar Das ji. I think a family owns these granths but only allows darshan on certain days. I understand if family doesn't want to part with pothis but they should be allow them to be digitised. Imagine studying pothis Guru Arjan Dev ji used for compilation of Aad Bir! I don't think any other religion can claim that they have original copies of their granth's ie kartarpuri bir and damdami bir (it's out there somewhere!) Bible of christians was compiled by vatican. Quran was compiled after Mohammed sahib's passing. Not sure if jews have original Torah in their posession. Anyway, uniqueness of Guru Granth Sahib ji is that saroop we have today was compiled by Guru Arjan Dev ji maharaj(raag,order of baani, mangals etc) and then Guru Tegh Bahadur ji's baani was added by Guru Gobind Singh ji maharaj.

Looks like the SGPC is digitizing all it's material in sikh reference library. This is good work by SGPC. However all manuscripts, books etc should be available online rather than just at the library itself. http://www.tribuneindia.com/2011/20110413/punjab.htm#1 Also mention of efforts to pursue stolen documents form indian government. We can't just rely on SGPC to persue this matter. This is matter for the whole panth, so all jathebandiya, samprdaia should make a stand. Unfortunately there just is not the hunger in the panth to pursue these matters. There is lack of interest when it comes to puratan saroop's, manuscripts etc. These documents are priceless, they are part of our history. To date, Damdami bir has not been found. Whole panth should get together to find what happened to this saroop. This was the saroop that was dictated to bhai Mani Singh ji by Guru Gobind Singh ji. Even if Abdali took it I'm sure it was kept safe somewhere. Alas, many sikh's dont even know what the damdami bir is! The current saroop of Guru Granth Sahib is based on this bir. Also karatarpuri bir should be given to SGPC or at least it should be digitized. It seems there is little interest in these matters. rabb rakhe

To be fair its only been a few months since iv'e signed up. Regardless, I wouldn't have any problems paying for subscription. They should keep the fee to a minimum, which they should be able to do if they have volunteers working for them. I appreciate efforts of PDL, scanning page by page is no easy task. As their is currently no other similar service available, we should be supporting PDL not criticising. However it looks as if their operations have come to a halt. The scrolling news on main page is all from 2010. There is an organisation that definitely has the funds and resources to offer a free and better site than PDL. SGPC should have taken up this task long time ago, scanning pages is hardly new technology. They should have at least scanned all pages in their own reference library instead outside organisation like PDL has to do it for them. I'm actually surprised SGPC let them scan their documents. Unfortunately no puratan saroops(hand-written) of Guru Granth Sahib have been digitised from SGPC. They must have them in their collection. I remember that in their museum their as an aad granth signed by Guru Hargobind Ji on display. I'm not sure why puratan saroops were not digitised from SGPC collection. Unfortunately in 1984 Ghallughara many puratan saroops were lost when army deliberately set reference library on fire. There was one saroop that was supposed to be highly shud in regards to spellings and order of bani. This was written by hazoori likhari of Guru Gobind Singh ji, bhai Hardas ji. I have a feeling before army burnt library, they took all the literature out first then burnt it. Some of our most valuable literature could be in possession of indian government! rabb rakhe

It would be interesting to know the daily routine of udasis, sevapanthis. For example which banis are compulsory, ie, japji sahib, rehras, sohila. Its good to hear nirmale are expected to take amrit and that kesh is compulsory. Is kesh compulsory for seva panthi and udasis? Do sevapanti and udasis recieve same gurmantr as khalsa panth? Maybe tsingh can shed more light on basic maryada, especially for udasis and sevapanthi. rabb rakhe

namdhari55 The site is free. You sign up and then you are allowed access to all granths. According to Gurnihal Singh Pirzada Director, PDL’s board member, "PDL is the only non-profit, non-governmental organization to have initiated a digitization project for the preservation and upkeep of Panjab archives, and perhaps the only one in India ” Therefore I assume all profits are reinvested. At the end of the day, from the comfort of my home, I can read suraj parkash, bhagat ratnavali etc in handwritten form. If it wasn't for this site, I would never had the fortune to have darshan of numerous handwritten puratan saroop's of Guru Granth Sahib. I doubt the organisation is making money off the site. Just read 'behind the scenes' people working with PDL are volunteers. Infact as I have stated above, I think PDL is barely keeping afloat because the site hasn't been updated in a while. Maybe they are charging for print outs because they need more funds. waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh

Amardeep ji Punjabdigital library site is great. I urge everyone to sign up. You can view eevry page of many granths including, suraj parkash, various janamsakhi's ie bhai bala ji, bhai mani singh ji etc. These are all handwritten granths written in larivar(no spaces between word) form. The handwriting is just beautiful. However the best collections they have are of puratan saroops's of Guru Granth Sahib ji. I now try to read as much bani in larivar as possible. Its difficult at first but I assure you its well worth the effort. Its hard to explain but you get more rass reading from larivar. Sign up, then just search for 'guru granth' then click on manuscripts. Its interesting how different the akhars look in handwritten saroops as compared to online akhars such as sikhitothemax. Writing full saroop of Guru Granth sahib is no easy task, making sure you get each laga matra right. The likharis of Guru Granth Sahib maharaj deserve great respect. Punjab digital library have done a great job. However the site hasn't been updated in a while. It could be due to financial issues. I hope they continue with their work. It would be awesome if they could digitise the kartarpuri bir. The british library currently has a 17th century Guru Granth Sahib: http://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/onlineex/apac/other/033ori000002748u00031v00.html If you zoom onto first page you can see that the word denda has a bindi above it, yet in modern printed saroops the bindi is not there. Unfortunately due the haste of sgpc wanting to print saroops of maharaj, they failed to do enough research into old handwritten saroops to make sure paath printed was correct. I know this is off topic, but all handwritten saroops of Guru Granth sahib were in written in larivar form. Even granth's such suraj parkash were written in larivar. It's unfortunate we have given up reading in larivar form. Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

'However, Nirmale are critical of any tendency to consider upkeep of rehit alone being a means to achieve kaivalya moksh, which you get hints of occasionally in some post-Singh Sabha ideologies. That would be a distortion of Gurmat.' T Singh jeeo, I agree by just keeping rehit one can't achieve their spiritual targets. However I don't know of any jathebandia or samprdai that subscribes to this thought. If you read through SGPC maryada it gives guidance on spiritual life ie waking up at amritvela, abhiyaas of naam and bani etc and guidance on rehit for individual and gurdwara. I could also argue that nirmale believe they can achieve mukhti, udhaar etc without keeping rehit such as kakars. Wouldn't this be a distortion of Gurmat? Literature of Akj,Sgpc, Missionary etc all stress on the importance of bhagti and rehit. If anything, Nihang's focus more on outer rehit. Yet they were in oppposition to singh sabha. For me, SGPC maryada is great document which has been an asset for the panth. It would be interesting to know which parts nirmale agree with to form sort of basis. I think this maryada, the whole panth can follow as a bare minimum. Only major issue seems to be regarding meat. Also no other rehat maryada document can claim to have diversity of input that SGPC maryada has. This maryada had input from: Nihang - Akal Kaur Singh Nirmale - Pandit Kartar Singh of Dakha, Sant Man Singh of Nirmala sect Scholars - Bhai Vir Singh, Prof. Ganga Singh, Akj and taksal - bhai sahib Randhir Singh, I think Sant Gurbachan Singh attended a meeting but left not too sure on this. Full list is on sgpc.net. Lets see which points we can agree on as panth. Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa! Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

Sant-Sipahi concept is very important in Sikhi. Pooran Bhramgiani Satguru Gobind Singh ji gave us kirpan. As per gurmat maryada, this kakar is so important it is kept on the body 24/7. I can say with full confidence and I think everyone will agree that no other dharam has produced sant-sapahis on the same level or in numbers than khalsa panth. I would go as far to say that one can't be a good warrior in the battfield without bhagti, the two go hand in hand. One who has done immense abhiyas of gurmat naam and gurbani will have great contol over his/her mind. One who has their dhiyan focused on the charan of Akal Purakh. One who has controlled the five thieves. That person will be fearless on the battlefield. A person who is filled with kaam can't be a good fighter same goes with krodh, moh etc. A sinful person will have fear in the battlefield. A mind that is focused and that doesn't wander will be a great aid when engaged in a physical fight. One who hasn't engaged in naam abhiyas will never believe how Baba Deep Singh was able to fight without his head. Im sure my brothers agree that when we do keertan, bani and naam abhiyas, we have no doubts that Baba ji was able to do this. At the same time just focusing on bhagti will not make one a good fighter. One will have to train his body and train with shasters. Thats why khalsa is unique compared to other faiths. Guru Gobind Singh himself gave hukam for bhagti and shastervidiya: 4) Amrit Vaelae utthna - Wake up Amrit Vela (before dawn). 8) Shabad da abhihas karna - Practice Shabad Gurbani in life. 9) Sat-Saroop Satgur da dhian dharna - Concentrate on the True Guru (God). 30) Shaster vidyaa atae ghorhae di savaari da abhiaas karna - Practice the knowledge of weaponry and horse riding. These 52 hukams of Guru Sahib are just great. Why are we worried about being labelled or being distinct and seperate? Just read hukams of Guru Sahib. Being distinct is not a bad thing. Just look around the world. There are many sheep following various people. However their 'Guru' their 'leaders' have no gunn's. If being distinct means controlling five vices, engaging in meditation of naam and bani, maintaining a strong and healthy body, being efficient in the use of weapons, striving to defend the honour of the oppressed. Then so be it. Waheguru Ji Ka khalsa! Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

O singho! Why have you made things so complicated! Why are Udasis, Sevepanthi and Nirmale exempt from 'physical' initiation? Why have they got the right to bypass kakars? If nirmale choose not to wear kirpan, why can't an ordinary amritdhari take off his kirpan. If nirmale can do it, why can't normal amritdhari Gursikh's. What makes nirmale so special? This so called sanatan sikhi thinking is false. In reality, no Gursikh is EXEMPT from wearing kakars. Reading on this forum, damdami taksal has roots in nirmale. Yet look at how strict Sant Gurbachan Singh was in terms of Kakars. Prominent Gurskihs like Sant Gurbachan Singh, Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh and Akali Kaur Singh always carried full size kirpan when going out. Taksal Gursikhs always keep keski on their head. If Taksal has roots in nirmale then why are they so stict in their maryada, there must be a reason. Sant Gurbachan Singh kept 5 kakars untils his last breaths on this earth, just like Sant Kartar Singh ji and Sant Jarnail Singh ji. Look Baba Mohan Singh Bhindrawale, they are 90+ years old but still keep rehit to the max.(Vaah! Vaah!) Alas! Im sure my fellow brothers will argue that Guru Gobind Singh created seperate sect, seperate initiation with seperate maryada for nirmale. I don't want to argue. We each have our own vichaars. In the end I guess you just have to read history, read about jeevan of Gursikhs and then just follow your heart. It seems no religion has been spared from infighting between sects ie shia and sunni, protestant christian etc. Its unfortunate that Sikh panth has also fallen prey to this. However there are postives! Just look at rehat maryada of AKJ, SGPC and Damdami Taksal. They are almost identical save for minor issues. Im sure maryada of nirmale is also very similar. Just look at Sant Jagjit Singh Harkhowale, he always wears five kakars. I have great respect for nirmale and their contribution to sikh panth ie writing books on itihaas, steeks of gurbani etc However I strongly disagree that you can get Gurmat Naam from Guru Sahib, yet get free pass when it comes to kakars. In my opinion that Gursikh that keeps discipline in wearing kakars will get more fruit from abhiyaas of naam and gurbani, then similar Sikh who doesn't wear kakars. In my humble opinion, if you want to become a bhagat of Jagat Guru, Satguru Nanak Dev Ji, if you want to become the son of dasmesh pita Guru Gobind Singh ji. Then get amrit from panj piare in presence of sahib sri Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj. Simple! Waheguru Ji Khalsa! Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!