SikhKhoj

It is always like that. When I give no source, you guys are so adamant and make the point 'why did no one question DG for 200 years'. Now I've already given one source with two statements:
1) Shyam was a court poet. Not a pen name of Guru Ji.
2) He is named amongst the authors who wrote compositions like the Charitropakhyan and Chaubis Avtar.
3) Besides the above external historical reference we find countless references to Shyam himself in the Dasam Granth:
ਸੁ ਕਬਿ ਸਯਾਮਿ ਤਾਕੋ ਕਹੈ ਚੌਦਸਵੋ ਅਵਤਾਰ ॥੪॥
The poet Shyam knows him as fourteenth incarnation.4.
(Chaubis Avtar)
Please note how the reference to Shyam occurs in Chaubis Avtar for example and the historical text also says Shyam was (amongst others) wrote the Chaubis Avtar and Charitropakhyan.
4) You guys are saying that there is only 1 source saying Charitars were by the court poets, but I challenge you: find me even one source saying 5 Banis Nitnem from 1700-1800. You want me to believe Chaupai is Bani without A SINGLE source but ignore my source, shame on you. Cognitive dissonance at its best.
 

First decide Ragmaala, is DG by Guru or by court poets? You're so confused.

Guru did not say that.
Approved and worship is not same

Thanks for admitting that Guru Gobind Singh did not write Charitropakhyan.

Why beat around the bush and start crying about Amrit Sanchar and Nitnem dependency on DG? We are already discussing that fact in another topic.
This is a reply to the people who claim that DG controversy is new and Puratan Sikhs always accepted DG as Guru Krit.
The 1776 source proves that already in the 18th century, parts if not the whole of Dasam Granth was attributed to court poets and not Guru Ji.
Besides that the internal proof of Raam and Shyam writing DG is corroborated by this source which confirms the existence of a poet called Shyam in the court of Guru Ji.

The argument that Raam or Shyam is a pen name of Guru Gobind Singh Maharaaj will be rebutted with more sources in the coming time. I am awaiting for pro Dasam Granthis to come up with some history rather than emotional drama about 'moral lessons' and other fancy things these people invent out of nowhere. If Guru Gobind Singh diverted from the tradition to use Nanak, it would have been mentioned. The Guru taking up pen name Shyam or Raam must be somewhere in history, starting in 1696 to the early 1800s... after which the Dasam Granth was shoved in our panth on major scale by altering the Nitnem and Amrit Sanchaar to accommodate Dasam Granth into it.

Can we talk facts please instead of 'have you read' 'give the translation' etc? I can't type out the whole Sakhi so I have summarized it above with the heading of the Sakhi, relevant page number and so on. (I have the whole Sakhi/granth and wrote the above myself so don't even know why you're asking that)

The author(s) of the Charitars and 24 Avtar – a historical perspective
By: Gurdaat Khoji
'Mahima Parkash' which was completed in 1776 A.D.[1] by Sarup Das Bhalla, a descendant of Guru Amar Das, gives us some invaluable proof regarding the authorship of a major part of the present day Dasam Granth: the Charitropakhyan & the Chaubis Avtaar.

The interesting Sakhi in question comes in the Mehima Parkash under the heading: “ਆਗੈ  ਸਾਖੀ  ਸਤਿਗੁਰ  ਜੀ  ਨੇ  ਬੇਦ  ਬਿਦਯਾ  ਪ੍ਰਕਾਸ਼  ਕਰਣ  ਕੀ  ਅਰੁ  ਬਚਿਤ੍ਰ  ਨਾਟਕ  ਕੀ  ਬਾਨੀ  ਕੀ  ਸੰਗਿਆ  ਕੀ  ਨਿਰੂਪਨ ਹੋਇ  ਗੀ”[2].
The author starts by mentioning the fact that religious scriptures (Purans) were assembled and Pandits were called from Benaras. Stanza 5 tells us that Gurmukhi scribes were ordered to collaborate with the Pandits. Amongst the poets who came to the Gurus court were Nanua Bairagi, Shyam Kab, Brahm Bhaat,  Nihchal Fakeer and many more (6th stanza in the Sakhi). This is the evidence from the 18th century that talks about a physical person Shyam, who was a Poet and came to the Guru’s court. Compare this to the assertation that Poet Shyam was a pen name of Guru Gobind Singh, which is not supported by historical sources. The text goes on further and says in the 8th stanza that these poets wrote the Chaubis Avtar and Charitropakhyan. The Guru was pleased when he heard these and later on in stanza 12 it says that the Pandits were sent back home with various gifts.
 [1] Nabha, Kahan Singh (1926). Mahan Kosh (page 2803)
[2] Bhalla, Sarup Das (1776), Mahima Parkash (page 411)
 

Just wondering if the manuscripts tally with the currently published Vaaran.

Prem Sumarag Granth is Gurbani written by Dasam Pita and should be worshipped alongside like Adi Granth

Okay, so now that the usual "Guru Ji WROTE this" crowd has admitted that court poets could have wrote it and NOT Guru Gobind Singh Ji... that's a HUGE step in thnking already Sikh Khoj! 
Ragmaala, Thank you for pointing out that Guru Ji was pleased with banis of bhagats AND INCLUDED THEM IN SGGSJ.... that's the key... that they WERE included in SGGSJ shows they were intended to be bani. 
Guru Gobind Singh Ji himself specifically CHOSE NOT to include Charitropakyan in SGGSJ (he easily could have if he wanted)! And he himself bestowed the title of Guru on SGGSJ ONLY! And told us NOT TO WORSHIP ANY OTHER AS GURU! This was Guru Gobind Singh Ji's own instruction.
And DG was compiled AFTER Guru Gobind Singh Ji's left his physical body, there's no evidence that he ever intended for some of these to ever be seen by us! 

"Pleased with" is not the same as "worship this as words of God"
A parent can be pleased with their child's artwork and put it on the fridge and give the child a treat, but I doubt they would ever intend to use it as an example of fine arts in a museum or art school.  Similarly, Guru Ji could have been pleased with the effort that was put into it, and gave the poets gifts, but never intended for their works to become 'bani' for his Sikhs. 
 
 
 
 

There is a difference between written by Guru Gobind Singh and approved by Guru Gobind Singh. In case I refer to Charitropakhyan as court poetry it does not close the possibility that it might have been approved by the Guru?

Ego. Need to work on that.

Besides Guru Hargobind Ji and Guru Gobind Singh Ji who killed lions on their own, our beloved Guru Ke Singh like Bhai Roshan Singh and Gen Hari Singh Nalwa (bare handed) too killed lions single handedly.

None of this isthe point dalsingh101... the point is, does Sikhi have gender equality or not?? Are women in Sikhi given the same rights when it comes to religious duties, family etc as men? Or are they given less? And if they ARE given less rights and freedoms, is it Sikhi that is somehow teaching this, or is it culture??
Don't mix up what I suggested before... that some people male and female choose to be in a dominant / submissive relatinship. Ever hear of BDSM? Some people willingly enter into a relationship as a 'slave' for whatever reason and it excites them sexually etc. to be controlled.  Men do it as well btw.  Some men also even pay to be the submissive!!! I was suggesting that maybe (whether they openly admit it or not) have some of the same attraction to being told what to do, when to do it etc. and not have to ever think on their own... This however, is NOT the ideal!!!!
My stance is and has always been, that NOBODY should be pigeonholed into roles based on their gender.  If a man wants to stay at home with the kids let him... if she has the higher paying career etc... and if a woman wants to work and have a career and feels more fullfilled contributing to society then let her.  It's not hurting you so why should you care? It worls for them... But nobody should be told they 'are not allowed' do something because they have a vagina (or a penis).  Especially in religious / spiritual affairs.  If women want to lead spiritually, let them... if they feel the calling to pursue leadership positions in the sangat then let them explore those roles.  Men don't always have to lead and women don't always have to be submissive followers.
How can anyone ever consider this thinking to be 'nutjob'???
A nutjob would be someone who forces another into a role they despise and make their life miserable... in the name of 'gender roles'.  And this goes both ways...male and female.
btw this makes me an equalist not a feminist.

I love this!
 
It's like a theatrical teaser.....
 
"Coming soon to a place near you!"
 
"The untold truth about charitriopakyaan!"
 
"Be amazed, and in awe!"
 
lol

Ego. Need to work on that.

Ego. Need to work on that.

goneee

It is possible. Anything is possible.
bhoolan andar sab ko, abhul guru kartaar

This topic is solely on Prem Sumarag. What do you think of my view and especially the last point, which might not be a solid one standing independently but it needs to be taken into consideration.
Regarding Prem Sumarag, there is not a single manuscript of the early 18th century, its all hearsay or this scholar claimed this or that. No proof or locations of such manuscripts are provided. Only existing MS are from the 19th century. I do not believe in hearsay, and nor should you. Atleast if you try to be objective.
Mcleod has a strong opinion that the first chapter might have been appended later to the Prem Sumarag, a view I share because several manuscripts with only 1 Chapter of Prem Sumarag exist. Besides that the Nitnem is repeated once in Chapter 1 and then in Chapter 6, the Nitnem in Chapter 6 does not specify which bani to do in morning but it says 'read from the Granth Pothi (SGGS)'. Therefore the main Prem Sumarag text does not mention the DG as much, the Bachitar Natak evening Nitnem is only there in Chapter 1 and not Chapter 6.
Besides that Prem Sumarag is a Granth dating to the Misl period or after because it mentions Kalals when it mentions other Sikh 'groups'. Kalals were practically unknown and too few in numbers to be mentioned amongst the other groups. Even in the British census they formed about 0.004% of Sikhs in 1881, which is too insignificant. The Kalals only became known after Jassa Singh Ahluwalia, before that there is not a single prominent Kalal Sikh and they have always been numerically insignificant till Misl period. This is my own observation not based on any other scholar.

Don't forget that on here quite a few of the Singhs on this forum do not believe Sikhi has (or ever was supposed to have) gender equality...

1. I have not said things like porn or gand da tokra, thats what I meant by 'distasteful posts' in the other topic. Learn to read before assuming things: "You will not see a single distasteful post from me against the Dasam Granth, I try to remain objective in my study and keep the past baggage, assumptions, blind faith aside"
2. I have quoted so many sources that give only Guru Granth Sahib sources for nitnem from the 18th century and you have still your head up your bund. Take it out and read the sources I mentioned.
3. Extremely limited or not, whatever material we possess is in favor of GGS Banis as Nitnem. The only sources that talk about Japji Jaap are dubious as I debunked them, still waiting a rebuttal. And not a single source exists giving 5/7 Banis as Nitnem besides so called oral tradition.
4. Namdharis have been debunked with historical sources, try to do the same to me ;)
 

Since amardeepu likes such news, I have a collection on my USB:
 
 
Over 200 Dalits Convert to Sikhism in MP
NDTV correspondent reported last May from Guna, Madhya Pradesh
In Madhya Pradesh’s Guna and Vidishia district more than two hundred Dalits have converted to
Sikhism in order to free themselves of discrimination by the upper castes - a tradition that has
been prevalent for years. Though this has not yet led to a change of mindset, more Dalits look all
set to convert to Sikhism. 80 year old Dangal Rai is now Dangal Singh. All his life, he says, he
has suffered discrimination from upper castes Hindus and has now decided to convert to
Sikhism.
We were not allowed to enter the temples and were shunned by everybody, said Dangal Singh.
The village of Deomari is VIP constituency in every sense of the word. It is part of Jyotiraditya
Scindia’s parliamentary constituency and also part of the Raghogarh assembly constituency
represented by Chief minister Digvijay Singh. But here, too, Dalits have been traditionally
discriminated against and four families in this alone have converted to Sikhism. Many of the
villagers say their first introduction to the religion came when migrant labour from the village
went to Punjab.Conversions have since been reported from 11 villages in Guna district and four villages in
Vidisha district. In January 2002 alone 42 people converted. In March at least 200 people
converted, said Giani Bhajan Singh, Guru Singh Sabha, Guna. (MP)
Dalits here are still learning to tie the turban and the basics of their new religion but the outward
changes have yet to bring a change of the mindset through which others see them. Even today,
after conversions, we still have problems. We are still shunned and humiliated. said Nishan
Singh. Pracharaks have yet to instil the heroic spirit of Sikhism.
[Courtesy Sarbhpreet Singh]

The Dalit tag still sticks despite converting to Sikhism




By Imran Khan, Patna, June 9 : It is a centuries-old ignominy they wanted to escape by converting to Sikhism in Punjab and found new respect there. But back home in Bihar, the tag of Dalit refused to leave them.



Many Dalit labourers who migrated to Punjab for work years ago and converted toduring their stay there are upset that they are still being categorised as Scheduled Caste in government records after they returned to their native villages in Bihar.

Sanjay Singh, who converted to Sikhism during his years-long stay in Punjab and sports a colourful turban and a long beard, says local and district administration officials in Bihar are not ready to accept him as a Sikh. Guru the founder of Sikhism, preached against discrimination and prejudices on the basis of caste, class and status.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/hard-talk/25333-dalit-tag-still-sticks-despite-converting.html

"The government officials are still treating us as Rishideo of the Musahar caste (the poorest Dalit community known as rat eaters), not as Sikhs, despite our efforts to convince them," Singh told IANS, adding that he was yet to be termed a Sikh in the government records despite repeated requests.

Singh said that about two decades ago his close relative Naren Rishideo left for Punjab to earn a livelihood and converted to the Sikh religion, becoming Naren Singh. His example was followed by most of those of his caste men working there.

"We tasted dignity, respect and equality after we converted. Before that, we were treated as low caste, sometimes even inferior to animals, by the upper caste and backward caste people in the village," Sanjay Singh said.

He said most of the women members of their families have now started using the Kaur surname.

Rup Singh and Manish Singh, who also converted to Sikhism, are no longer keen to be known as Rishideos and want that they should be treated as Sikhs in government records.

"We changed our religion to get rid of the stigma of untouchablity and to live a life with pride. We were happy to return to our village. Local people, barring a few, accepted us as Sikh, but in the government records and caste certificates we have the same old Dalit tag," Rup Singh told IANS.

Soon after they returned to their village Halhalia in Araria district, nearly 400 km from Patna, they were shocked to learn that despite the change of religion they would have to fight another battle to upgrade their social status in official records.

"All the Dalits who converted to the Sikh religion are still Dalits in the caste certificate and we are being denied the status of the Sikhs," Rup Singh said.

Manish Singh, another convert, says that they are no longer Dalits after embracing the Sikh religion and they should instead be treated as minorities as Sikhs are a minority community in the country.

A large number of migrant labourers from Bihar who converted to Sikhism in Punjab and stayed back there hardly face any identity problem, but the converts who returned to their native villages in Bihar are facing a different discrimination, Manish Singh said.

Araria district magistrate Anjani Kumar Verma, when asked about the problem, told IANS over telephone that he was not aware of the matter.

"So far no such complaint has come to my notice. If there is anything like it, the district administration will do justice with them," Verma said.

Over 200 Dalit villagers of half a dozen villages including Kamta Balia, Gurumuhi, and Parmanpur under the Khwaspur panchayat (village council) have already converted to Sikhism. They have set up a gurdwara with support of the Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee (SGPC), while some Sikhs from New Delhi are helping them to maintain it.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=25333


--- IANS
 

A VILLAGE OF AMRITDHARIS (this time Punjab)

PANTHIC.ORG  | Published on December 12, 2007

Amritdhari Residents of the Chabrewal Village
Rupnagar, Nurpur Bedi (KP) -  Recently, a local Punjabi newspaper published an inspiring article about a particular Punjab village in the foothills of the Shivaliks that has rapidly accepting the Sikhi way of live, en masse - a trend that is opposite of what is happening in rest of Punjab.  Perhaps this unique village can inspire others accross Punjab to return to their Sikhi roots.
Village Chabrewal is a small village in Nurper Bedi situated in the hills of Shivalik.  Because of its small size, this village goes unnoticed by the rest of the world and it enjoys a simple lifestyle--remaining aloof from worldly facilities and luxuries.  During one time, this village, which is mostly populated with the people of the Gujjar clan, was known for its people’s smoking and drinking habits--but now, it has been completely transformed by conversions of people who have chosen to adopt the Sikh faith.  Amritdhari men and women can be spotted easily upon entering the village.
The population of this village remains scarce, at about 250, but Mela Ram has now become Mela Singh, Jog Raj has now become Jog Raj Singh and Dolat Ram has now become Dolat Singh.  At least one member of every family has taken up the Sikh way of life by adopting the path shown by Guru Gobind Singh Ji.
According to Jog Raj Singh, the Chief of this Village, Sikh influence was brought here by a person named Mela Ram.  Mela Ram, Son of Babu Ram, was the first person to be baptized into the Khalsa Panth. Afterwards, he inspired many others as well.  Not only have the ordinary villagers taken up the Sikh way of life, many of the village’s amritdharis are eminent public figures.
Prof. Jaswinder Singh who teaches religious studies at the Kalgidhar Kanea School Kahnpur Khuhi said that Baba Dalip Singh Samirowal and Baba Gurcharan Singh, who performed seva of a historical shrine relating to the life of Guru Gobind Singh Ji, played a big role in nurturing Sikhi in this village.   In addition, Sikh Missionary College (Anandpur Sahib), Baba Channan Singh Suara and Principal Prem Singh Heerpur have continued to hold Gurmat related classes for the people which have helped many people.  Jaswinder Singh said that 1999 was a crucial year for the village as during this year, a large number of people became attached to bani and bana.
This area of the Shivalik Hills has been blessed with ‘charan-choh’ (presence and touch of the Holy Lotus feet) of Guru Gobind Singh Ji.  At Gurdwara Kataar Sahib, Guru Gobind Singh Ji blessed the father of Baba Sangat Singh Ji with a kataar.  Seva of this Gurdwara Sahib was organized by Baba Labh Singh Ji who handed the control of this shrine to the Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee.  Sikh Sangat visits this historical shrine in big numbers during the annual nangar kirtan and on special monthly programs.
(Original story appeared in the Punjabi version of Ajit)
 
RECENT NEWS of Madhya Pradesh:
 

This is my last post on this thread. 

First line says "ਸਾਹਾ ਗਣਹਿ ਨ ਕਰਹਿ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥". Guru Nanak starts of by saying: O Pandit, you make calculations (ਗਣਹਿ) to obtain an auspicious date for the wedding (ਸਾਹਾ), but you do not contemplate.
Contemplate what? The answer is: ਸਾਹੇ ਊਪਰਿ ਏਕੰਕਾਰੁ ॥ - that God is above these auspicious days.The one who meets the Guru - ਜਿਸੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਮਿਲੈ, realizes the (real) way (to ascertain auspicious days) - ਸੋਈ ਬਿਧਿ ਜਾਣੈ. How? By following Gurmat, one realizes Gods Will. 
ਝੂਠੁ ਨ ਬੋਲਿ ਪਾਡੇ ਸਚੁ ਕਹੀਐ ॥ - Pandit do not lie, speak the truth. Now it is clear from the context that the lie is about the calculations and auspicious dates. When egotism is removed with Shabd, then one finds his Home. (ਹਉਮੈ ਜਾਇ ਸਬਦਿ ਘਰੁ ਲਹੀਐ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥)
Calculating and counting, the astrologer draws the horoscope. (ਗਣਿ ਗਣਿ ਜੋਤਕੁ ਕਾਂਡੀ ਕੀਨੀ ॥) He studies it and announces it, but he does not understand reality. ( ਪੜੈ ਸੁਣਾਵੈ ਤਤੁ ਨ ਚੀਨੀ ॥ ) The Word of the Guru's Shabad is above all.   Do not speak of anything else (i.e. astrology); it is all just ashes. (ਸਭਸੈ ਊਪਰਿ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ ਹੋਰ ਕਥਨੀ ਬਦਉ ਨ ਸਗਲੀ ਛਾਰੁ ॥੨॥)
And so on, till we arrive at the tuk I quoted: 
ਗਣਤ ਗਣੀਐ ਸਹਸਾ ਦੁਖੁ ਜੀਐ ॥ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਸਰਣਿ ਪਵੈ ਸੁਖੁ ਥੀਐ
Astrological calculations about one's future create suspense or sorrow in one's heart; But by seeking the Guru's refuge, one always remains in peace and comfort.
It is crystal clear from the opening line that the Guru addresses a Pandit regarding the calculations he makes to draw a birth chart to eventually fix an auspicious date for the marriage. Guru Sahib tells him that he does not realize that Parmatma is above these; as all days are created by God. The Guru encourages to speak about nothing else than GurShabad (in this context the Guru is referring to the kundlis). And the Guru continues till he says that instead of creating suspense or sorrow in your heart by supposed revelations of your future; instead embrace the Guru and remain in peace and comfort (by living in his Will and accepting Hukam).