HSD1

Well she was a hindu, so he must have been one of those evil sikh nazi khalistani cowards everyone is always blaming for everything.

Fordcapri, you cant post tidbits of conversations as that would give a skewed version of events. At least be honest about this so we can see what the machinations are inside UAF. Good evidence on their views would be useful but like dalsingh said no one looks after the sikh nation apart from us sikhs so we cant expect a lot from these people.

Fordcapri/robisnotdeadyet, can you put up what you sent to the UAF and then put up what their response was? The part you put in bold, if true, is a seriously bad reflection on UAF.

Such amazing and coherent input in this discussion. Women are women and men are men. If a sikh guy wants to go out and get pissed, no amount of education or pious preaching will stop him. If a sikh girl wants to be a slapper then she will do it, especially if she knows there will be no repercussions. Blaming it on bollywood/hip-hop/bad parenting is a naive way at looking at behaviour among young sikhs.

Chatka with a cannon?! What a brilliant idea. Mind you it took us 200 years to think of it. I think nowadays it would have to be chatka by kalashnikov.

The thing is that having a community purely after material things or purely built on violence will never work. One of the strengths of the english social structure is it's well educated elite at the top and the willingness/stupidity of those at the bottom to fall in line and comply in carrying out what is necessary to keep the nation on top. Then there are those in the middle who fill the roles needed for the society to function. Sikhs, unfortunately, have formed symbiotic relationships with other race's social pyramid. As for the caste thing, I wasn't even a teenager in the 90s so I'm not sure what you mean about what happened then. Times have changed. When i lived for a short time in the midlands, i remember going out and coming across groups of whites who had a token black to act as a kind of attack dog. I found it funny how readily the black would fall in line and trot out words like 'ragheads/terrorist/packies/etc' and then cry like a girl after his white 'mates' abandoned him and his head got kicked in. This old sikh guy may be the first to join the BNP but that's only because they will end up using him to galvanise muslims into attacking us and waiting to see what we do in response. Plenty of blacks, hindus and fijians would love to join the BNP, but they wont be allowed. In the case of the Fijians, they know who sikhs are, and are not expressing anti-muslim feeling. The way I see it is that sikhs need to close ranks and sort ourselves out before we try making friends out there. If we arent united, we will end up as lapdogs to anyone we ally with. You can never negotiate from a position of weakness. With regards to the aims of our enemies, there are 3 things we can do: flee, let them do it or do it to them before they do it to us. So with the pakis it would be nothing more than a war of attrition in a partition-esque situation. With the anglos, we have to keep a hold of and protect what we are and what we want to be whilst chipping away at their infrastrucure. There is no way we could exist as equals without 'cracking a few eggs'. PR does matter, but sometimes you cant change how certain race's minds think. Whitey has a fear of the chinese, something to do with the possibility of millions of them coming here and shagging their women or running up and down their 'wonderful' countryside. Hence this pro-tibet silliness from so many whites. On the other hand we have hindustan which is keen to be the sepoy in the anglosphere. It wouldnt look good if the world's largest democracy, which was created by britain, suddenly fell apart because it mistreated it's minorities. Hence whitey is keen to turn a blind eye to them as long as they arent too hard on their christian minorities. They will, but it will be hard to prove that the BNP had anything to do with it. Griffin is shrewd enough not to start his own brownshirts. Wherever sikhs go, the musis arent far behind. They got their own country in 1947 yet they still came here after the sikhs did. They hate us yet dont want to let us go away. Living among a purely sikh community isnt good idea either. Agree with all of that apart from the use of the phrase 'Punjabi ideology'. The muslim and hindu punjabis dont exhibit most of these qualities. We have to face that the bad things have crept into sikhi because of our own failure to oppose them. Saying it is Punjabi or was always present at some kind of level is just a cop out used by those who wont want to change.

But they got a country out of it. Thats why i dont have a problem with sikhs calling pakistanis 'pakis' as it is nowhere near as offensive as what they did to us. As for this Rajinder Singh, we have to face the fact that he is a lot older than all of us so deserves some respect. Some of my own grandparents had to leave west punjab during partition, and my great grand mother died during 1947. We cant forget that people like him went through things we cant imagine. Go and talk to your elders if you want to know about partition. This man was raised without his father's guidance so it is inevitable he would have some views like this. The way to counter it is to be more vocal that not all sikhs support the BNP. Well, when our own community has no unity, patriotism or willingness to deal with problems from other races/communities, is it any wonder people like him will rush into the arms of the BNP? The old man is not an idiot for being who he is. Who cares what the other 'ethnics' think? What have they ever done for us? Why are we beholden to them? We are looking at this the wrong way. The BNP are pushing themselves as a free, open, democratic party. They can only be countered by political activism as it isnt easy to prove the link between the skinhead on the street and the party. If we lose our 'rep' because of what one person does, it just goes to show our reputation wasnt that high in the first place. So what should sikhs who are suffering at the hands of the larger muslim community do? There is a line between being tolerant and having an 'anything goes' attitude. That'll be the day. Shame the media dont believe in 'innocent until proven guilty' either.

Your views are valid but the recent split between 'ravidassias' and the rest of us has showed me that big, decisive gaps do exist among our nation. These can be solved with the carrot more so than a stick. In the future, outsiders will continue to exploit these divisions and it will probably be along moneh/amritdhari lines. Many amritdharis dont consider moneh as sikhs and use words like 'jatts' or 'punjabis' to describe them. Pissing people off will only cause enough friction to make being an 'agnostic jatts/punjabis' acceptable. But i'm no mystic meg either, so who knows what will happen in the future. It doesnt really matter how we solve the caste problem, as long as it's solved one way or the other. We also have to face that its not only jatts doing it all. A fair few of the handful of khatris i ever knew have had some retarded theories that sikhi is a 'pure aryan khatri religion' that was diluted by mass conversions of the common jatt. Superiority in jatts is bizarre. It is like those white chavs who think that just because they are white they are the best and deserve more benefits. Seeing brown people doing well upsets them because it contradicts their stereotypes. Caste-ism is a lot like racism. As we are the jatts we are taking the role of the white majority in this scenario. This leads to interesting parallels, especially with regards to how to combat the discrimination. Just like some sikhs say there is no caste, the whites can pretend that racism does not exist. With that in mind, if you were white, how would you combat racism in your own community/country? Think the answers through and then apply the same answers to casteism in sikhs. I would be interested to hear what others come up with on this. If anyone wants to call themselves a jat they will at least need basic farming experience. All ramgarhias will need a C or higher in their woodwork GCSE in order to associate with their caste.

Actually you provided the link to the website and i pointed out another source on it you might like. Anyway we all know it takes you a long time to stop crying, so go lock yourself in a cupboard.

The thing is, on SikhSangat i discussed this topic with dalsingh often before we both got banned. He believed that caste-ism should be confronted openly and those who consider themselves jatts before sikhs should be handled a lot more strictly. I, on the other hand, thought that this would drive most of these views underground i.e. people would still think along caste lines but not admit to it - similar to how racism has changed in the uk from confrontation to discrimination. What happened with the red shirt has showed me that the problem of caste is a lot more sinister in the way it exists. All my life i have never heard anything like that from my mum, and she did not expect me to be so annoyed by what she said. My worry is that my retort wont change her views; she can just avoid saying these things in front of me but carry on in front of the rest of our family or friends. My view now is that more needs to be done, but what we do shouldnt be so vicious that it gives the caste-ists to chance to cry 'victim'. The biggest thing is to stop it spreading from the older generation to the younger ones. Caste doesnt matter in our community, but some people can use the issue to twist people to their side, especially when deciding who will run gurudwaras. The youth need to be told that our Gurus did many things: travelled the world, learnt other languages, befriended good people regardless of their background, fought in battles, had children etc, but they never ever discriminated on the basis of caste. Also, dividing along caste lines allows us to be exploited by outsiders. Simple points like that will make it harder for the older generation to pass their crap on. I would also like to hear if anyone has any strategies to overcome caste discrimination.

Funnily enough we have the same problem when trying to watch North American content. You can try this: http://www.channel4.com/programmes/the-family/4od#3007633 If that doesnt work, you'll have to make do with this: http://www.youtube.com/user/channel4 If you really want to watch it, you may already have an ISP address resetting programme. It may be possible to set this to somewhere in the UK. I am not sure about any finer details but someone might know what I'm going on about. Well it would look that way if you only read the part of my post you quoted, but it was not exactly what i meant. You say Guru Sahib told us what defines a sikh. Okay can you write a list then? Chances are this list will differ from most other sikhs. Some people may also get really annoyed with some parts and say that they are wrong or are not as important as others. Also, there is the chance you will not match those definitions given. What are you then? A punjabi? A jatt? I'm sure our Gurus would be proud to see us replace one form of prejudice and pointless hierarchies with another. A fundamentalist is one person with a list who uses it to bash others yet refuses to be beholden to that list. You cant deny that some amritdharis wish they could get away with murder, some believing that they should get privileges over the rest of us. Before the economic crash, i remember an amritdhari in my local gurudwara saying that the gurudwara's income should be divided between amritdhari families (after gurudwara upkeep is paid for). When someone pointed out that most of the donations are from moneh and keshdharis, the response was 'so what?'. Would our Gurus approve of such an attitude? Luckily the moron who suggested it wasnt liked enough to be in the management, otherwise any attempt to try that idea would have split the sangat right down the middle. Ranting aside, you should ponder dalsingh's question.

I wonder what Kim Bolan has to say about this?

Caste-ism is a seriously worrying problem. The other day i bought myself a red polo shirt which my mum went nuts about. Why? Because she said that only chamars wore red shirts. I needed to sit down to get over hearing this from my own parent. I pointed out to her that Manchester United wear red shirts so they must be chamars as well (she's a glory hunter, where as i dont like them). I hope that was enough sense in what i said to stop her saying something so stupid again.

An interesting-ish programme. Pretty standard family stuff. One thing i did notice is how the girl getting married did a cross thing when she was praying. Is she sikh or christian? In the first programme we also saw the issue of marriages that cross caste boundaries and what effects that has. In this case i think the girl's mother was also annoyed at how the girl was marrying someone a bit older than her and the fact his job wasnt as good as hers. Fundamentalists are those sikhs who have this ideal image of what 'real' sikhs are (of course this image is usually what they see themselves as, regardless of any real criticism or perception from others). Anyone who isnt as good as they want them to be is then a jatt/punjabi/etc.

Unfortunately in a politically correct world, we have to pussyfoot around causing offence to anyone. How would the song sound if it had to name all the babas etc who werent abusing their power every other line? Some people just like screaming 'Abuse, slander, insults!' every time they hear something which makes them uncomfortable. The song doesnt really name anyone in particular so I'm surprised that some people are taking it as directed at them.

And when they do get here all they do is moan about how cold it is. Freshies are as bad as sikhs in the uk or canada.

A programme on channel 4 right now. Very interesting. Will put up links to it when they are available. What do you think of the programme? http://www.channel4.com/programmes/the-event-how-racist-are-you

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00nft24/Question_Time_22_10_2009/

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00nfr2h/Panorama_Undercover_Hate_on_the_Doorstep/

I was referring to your opinion that no one stood up to Ishraqi enough. Chill out, you're obviously upset about something. Wonder what it is. If the fact he was male and muslim has nothing to do with it then what is it? Harjas Kaur misquotes gurbani and puts out long winding ignorant posts. Why is there no stopping of that? Maybe if she learnt to make a point like the rest of us and not go round in circles as if it's her day job we would get somewhere. Go on a hindu/muslim forum and try your approach. They wont even give you time to post. Do you believe in letting everyone have their say? If you do, let me warn you: first they will talk the talk, then they will try to walk the walk. Harjas kaur's views on unity is one small step away from a majority persecuting a minority. If you dont believe me look at the history of other civilisations. What would you do if you just lived your life and one day some militant sanatans decide you are actually a paki/chini secret agent and attack you? It may seem farfetched, but so did 84 or the holocaust before they actually happened. Oh no you got me! How did you know? Lol. So you share your courting techniques over the net and on the court? Lol, I'm just messing with you. Well thankyou for your opinion. As you posted I have a right to respond. No need to get so touchy. Go 'shoot some hoops' lol.

When I first saw the advert I thought this was some kind of live action sikh version of family guy. Unfortunately, i was wrong and this looks to be a very bizarre programme. It will upset many fundamentalists who have certain views on how great modern sikhs are. Luckily this programme will be shown after their bedtimes so we wont have too many tantrums lol. Hopefully they wont know that all of the episode will be put on 4oD (channel 4's on demand online service).

If sikhs today have no link to their sikh ancestors, how does the Gita act as a Gurbani for an earlier time? If so, why bother with the Gita? Surely Gurbani is all you need then. Denying? More like proving it to be completely and utterly wrong. Maybe you should go on an english forum and try to convince them they are all roman/greek classical pagans.

If we cannot stand up to one form of slander, we should bow down to all others? You may not agree, but Ishraqi was never right in many of his convictions, as was proven on numerous times by sikhs on here. Just because he was a man or muslim does not mean we should be extra 'vicious' or whatever you were expecting. Never. She has been proved wrong, leave it at that. If you love her so much, give her your MSN and she can send bits of Gurbani strung together like conversation for your pleasure. Even if the woman cannot respect herself? Your comment about 'a sikh woman' also implies racism. Are white/black/muslim women not worthy of respect? Having said that, i have come across many hindu men who get kicks out of pretending to be sikh women on forums, so they can watch little sikh boys 'defend their honour' against other sikhs who are pointing out how bad they are. Maybe you should see what the real world and real people are like before saying such things.

Turning from a fundamentalist nutjob to a sanatan one is no real sign of intelligence. Is tibet in ruin? The chinese dont think so. East punjab has suffered far worse under hindustan. How would china bring ruin to sikhs? Stop being racist. Sikhs have good relations with chinese diplomats - many of them visit Harmandir Sahib. What you do with schoolboys is your own business. You clearly stated that what happened in 84 wasnt against sikhs, but was more of a sikh versus sikh affair - you accuse me of over simplification yet you downright twist and lie. The use of the word 'we' does not make someone a buttmunch. Sit down and think about that for a minute. Yet again you refuse to address the point. If there is no link between sikhs today and our ancestors then there is no link between hindus of any time period. Therefore there is no link between sikhs and hindus. Defeated by your own logic. How does that feel? Once again twisting to make yourself look good. The unity you talk of is submission. Also you should learn that the word 'we' can be used in context of speaking of a nation you belong to doing something in the past. Dont worry if you dont understand, no one expects you to. No. The funny thing is that you say hindus resisted for hundreds of years. No they didnt. You say they were overwhelmed. No they werent. The muslim rulers made laws that every good looking, intelligent or useful indian has to convert to islam. They didnt want all hindus to convert to islam. There was no democracy back then so having larger numbers made no difference in control of government. All that was needed was a well oiled war machine. You say hindus joined the sikh army. I once again tell you that when a sikh is a sikh, thats it. His ancestry does not come into it. I have proved this with many points, analogies and even our Gurus say using what our ancestors were as a point of pride is wrong. Stop flogging a dead horse. As for rajputs and jatts, what does that have to do with anything. If they were hindus they probably waited for an opportunity to riot. If they were sikh they might have fought at our Guru's side. Caste does not come into it. Also, many sikhs did not live in 'pinds' and were forced to become nomadic in a sense. Probably because they didnt trust their neighbours who would have betrayed them to the mughals. Some things never change. There you go folks, she openly agrees with what Kaljug highlighted in his first post about what these hindus are calling 'unity'.

Alright little miss smarty pants, answer me this: Can you name some British ships that took part in the Battle of Trafalgar? Here are a few: HMS NEPTUNE, HMS ORION, HMS MINOTAUR, HMS BELLERPHON, HMS POLYPHEMUS, HMS NAIAD or HMS SIRIUS. Hang on a minute. What the hell are british christians using pagan gods, creatures, nymphs, heroes and mythical super-dogs to name their ships of the line? Surely this must mean that the english are secretly greek/roman pagans? Actually maybe I have it all wrong. It was actually the greek and roman pagans who were the ones doing all the fighting for Britain at Trafalgar!! Of course that must be it. History is so much clearer when I look at it using your logic. Haha. Yes, yes, just like roman/greek gods raping giants or a woman sleeping with a bull and producing minotaurs etc etc. Hahahahahahah.