HSD1

When they refer to 'muslim-sikhs' do they mean sultani-sikhs or are they trying to introduce another group in the same vein as 'hindu-sikhs'?

Well only Guru Nanak Ji can answer that. But lets face it, if sugar cane feels pain, why doesnt corn? Or are our Gurus discriminating against corn in favour of sugar cane for some reason? Taking Gurbani too literally is not the same as what Guru Sahib wants us to believe.

Oh dear, some people just cant help themselves can they? Now listen here, for every part of Gurbani that is misquoted by meatheads, there are just as many twisted by vegefascists. Only five, you are guilty of this. You are acting like a mirror image of the Randip Singh. As for Ang 1289 and 1290, it is clear that it is telling people not to preach on one subject when they neglect to be perfect with regards to other things. If you go on about how bad meat eaters are, you have be a pretty good Gursikh yourself. You can lie, and we wont be able to see your faults over the internet, but Waheguru has made it clear what lies in wait for the vegefascists. Proceed at your own peril. If the entire panth became vegetarians over night, what would it acheive? Would 84 be avenged? Would we get sovereignty over our own nation? Would the shaheeds come back? If the shaheeds did come back, what would they think of this nonsense arguing over meat? Lets face it, if we were all to become strict vegetarians, the vegefascists and meatheads would just move to something else to argue over. Such is the poison of fundamentalism. I encourage young sikhs to watch these arguments but not waste their time taking part. None of us are perfect, we shouldnt judge our brothers or sisters, instead we should try to do parchaar a little closer to home. Another point is this: gluttony. Ok, only five, lets say meat eating is bad etc etc, but what about those singhs in langar who shove their face? I remember seeing the same faces keep coming back for more, sometimes 3 seperate helpings, which leaves me in disbelief. Langar is to feed everyone, I know that, which includes those who are rich or poor. It is not a buffet. I look at some of these tubby grubby sweaty singhs and think to myself 'where were you in 84?'. Probably in langar chewing with their mouths open. So isnt gluttony and lack of restraint just as bad nowadays in this world as eating meat? You cannot decide what is on topic and what is off topic. You say science is of no use, but then how do you know that plants feel pain? Well you even said it was from scientific studies. Though i'm not sure why you keep on revisiting the plants feel pain thing as it means we shouldnt eat them either. Maybe you should answer why should sikhs not eat meat? Next, you say this is about proving Randip wrong. Now you are clever enough to see he hasnt posted again. Maybe, just maybe, do you think he expected someone like you to show up, and knew that you would cause enough trouble to force moderate sikhs onto his side? Kaljug said he had reduced his meat consumption, only for you to goad him into thinking of having a burger. Do you see what you did? Do you even care that you are having the oppposite effect of what you say you wanted to achieve? Lastly, science has a part in everything. Only five, it is clear your grasp of it is basic, which is unfortunate. Look around you. Look at Waheguru's creation. The sun, the moon, the stars. The grass, the trees, the mountains. The birds, the mammals, the reptiles. All of their composition, all of the reactions going on inside them and the effects of what they do, who do you think created that? It is clear to me that Waheguru is the greatest scientist, as Waheguru came up with every scientific 'theory' that affects our existence. So show some respect. If this discussion carries on with no purpose or logic/reasoning I think the mods should just close it.

I dont think I'm wise, so dont be cheeky lol. Well I have given you the ammunition to destroy their misinterpretation of Gurbani in Ang 142 and 143. Of course, as they are meatheads, they will now never acknowledge plants feel pain or mention that shabad as they know what response you will come up with. Like a plague of locusts, they will move onto another section of Gurbani and twist that. The vegefascists will do the same in response to the first post in this thread. And so the never ending cycle will spin recklessly out of control. Dont you see what I'm trying to say? Do you think anything of consequence will be achieved in your life by hounding these meathead fools all over the internet? Firstly, if you are not willing to give your interpretation of the shabad (burnt fingers, eh?), please give the reference so the sangat on SikhAwareness can look into it and tell you what should be the real meaning rather than what it is being misinterpreted as. Another point is this: hardly any sikhs in the west practice jhatka (i presume you live in the west), so how can they use that argument if they buy their meat in tescos, which is usually halal/kosher nowadays? Using logic and rationality are better weapons than firing chunks of gurbani at one another. It also avoids offending those of us who are getting sick of this petty arguing and 'internet battles' which are no use in the end. Well lets not get into which forum is better etc, as that is an argument in itself. I have been banned from a sikh forum too. If this guy cannot back up his points or even show the logic/reasoning behind them, then he is a fool. If you are young, you shouldnt get so worked up and waste your time arguing with him, there are better uses for your time. If his reason for existence is being a meathead (which was hinted at in the first post), then he will bare his burden in time. You should not be dragged down with him. Well Guru Sahib does not change to give definitive answers to little things that crop up over time. What does Guru Sahib say about space travel? Or mining on the moon? Or first contact with aliens etc etc? It doesnt, thats why i mentioned the idea of sikhi principles that we can apply in a pragmatic way to the world around us. As for jhatka, yes it may be out of date and not as complete as it was. If we had a sikh scientific research institution we could get them to investigate what would be the best way to kill an animal nowadays. Until one is set up, this argument could go on forever. On a side note: in post 31 i mentioned not eating meat in the west as the way it is created for easy purchase at your local supermarket. I didnt mention that chocolate, certain fruit and coffee etc are also grown in bad conditions with devastating consequences for the local communities and environments in the world. We need to tighten our belts and be conscious of what we buy, meat or other wise.

The problem started like this: the vege-fascists started going on that eating meat was evil and anti-sikhi. As many sikhs had eaten meat from a young age, it seemed almost bizarre that it was considered such a serious sin. Most other things we are told not to do, we are unable to as children anyway. To back up their claims, the vege-fascists combed Gurbani, in a similar way christists and musis do when they have a 'theological debate'. Anything of any use was used. Hence you have all these misinterpreted points in Gurbani in the first post on this thread. The meat-heads, not to be outdone, then went on a similar crusade. Just because the vege-fascists had misused Gurbani, the meatheads decided to be just as bad. "Oh, if hurting animals is wrong, what about plants, they hurt too!?", and then they quoted the reference Only Five provided. Cant anyone see where this is going? It will come to a point where we are so vicious and aggressive in twisting gurbani to suit our own personal beliefs that the younger generation will believe our skewed interpretations. Does anyone really want that? Who are we even to do such things? Now some of you will say, 'so whats the solution wiseguy?'. Well we are sikhs who live in the real world. Fish stocks are severely depleted, and science isnt funded or encouraged enough to come up with the solutions. No real sikh would like to be responsible for destroying entire ecosystems, and this is the main reason I no longer eat fish. I also dont eat turkey, having learnt that they are bred to be so fat that they can no longer reproduce without human assistance. If the turkey market was not propped up by thanksgiving and christmas, they would be virtually extinct apart from the ones used in shooting games in the states. The same goes for the treatment of other poultry in the west. See, it's not hard to come up with reasons to not eat meat - using sikhi principles - without twisting gurbani isnt it? This way you wont get meat eating sikh's backs up either, especially if they are thinking of reducing their meat consumption. Its a shame that there arent more sikhs in the farming industry where the diaspora lives, as well as some sikh-funded science/agricultural institutions who could look into these problems and give solutions that would reverse the amount of damage we have done to this earth.

So your not against jhatka, but dont agree with eating meat? Or are you saying that jhatka is irrelevant with today's weapons and techniques? If so, its a fair enough comment to make. Yes, some chickens do run around, but the head does not feel the pain. The body is just acting without instruction, just like pressing buttons randomly on a machine without knowledge of what it will do. As for death, I dont really think thats an issue. Death and birth are nothing more than road bumps in the journey of our souls, but we do have to be considerate to animals and plants. I've always wondered if souls can be reincarnated into plants, but never actually asked anyone as I was worried it would be considered a stupid question. You raise some interesting points. Thank you for the reference brother. When reading ANG 142, the important part is the reference to corn. This is a metaphor used to describe the lower class of society, as corn is a common crop. The corn that sticks to the central stone and is spared represents those great souls who will be saved from reincarnation by Waheguru. The rest of the kernels are ground into nothing, which is what will happen to the majority of people in this world. On ANG 143, the sugar cane represents the decadent, selfish and money loving people at the higher end of society (i.e. the people who do not understand the Guru's message as mentioned in the first half of ANG 142). The sugar cane suffers as it has been treated so well during its life, and its treated in high regard for its sweet crop and value compared to simple corn. Even though people are treated well and respected when living, in the end these bad people have the worse fate. A very apt and deep metaphor. Well I hope you dont feel the same way if you read what I wrote above. Animals and plants are not equal, unless of course we can be reincarnated as plants. If we can, then what about certain rocks, bacteria, other undiscovered forms of 'life'? I'm not sure where but I have been told that Sikhi does say that humans are one of the highest forms of existence on this planet. I personally do not believe that animals and plants are equal.

Usually when someone says they arent going to respond to a point they dont then go on to write three paragraphs. That aside, why is it irrelevant to your question? Not everything revolves around you and my point was to all the readers, not just you. As for modern weapons, what is your point? There are people who have survived multiple high velocity bullets to their heads. On the other hand I have not seen an animal get its head cut off and then still manage to live, but its not even clear what you are trying to point out by mentioning 'modern weapons', so its hard to actually try and discuss with any clarity. No one is 'screaming' about Inuits. Its not there fault that your fundamentalist theories fall apart in the real world. What have the Inuits ever done to you? Also, the basis of Nihang life is not about meat or jhatka. Unfortunately, for some veggies, that is the sole purpose of their existence. Unable to build a Khalistan, unable to stop the baptist conversions in the punjab, unable to stop RSS influences, unable to meaningfully change their lives and powerless in every sphere of their existence, these people whine about things like this to try and make themselves feel righteous. Unfortunately they just cause more splits in the panth. They dont mind though, as the more we divide ourselves, the more chance each of these fundamentalists has of gaining power in each little segment. Your mention of 'blah blah', 'irrelevant' and 'trivial' just shows at best a lack of maturity, at worst a complete inability to think rationally or see the bigger picture. As for the plants, why should we eat them? If we cant eat meat, lets not eat plants either. If this is in relation to your comment about crushing sugar cane, then I ask you what is a good way of 'killing' plants? Now I only studied Biology up to A-Level, but even i know that plants and animals are very different. You can cut a plant and quite often it still survives. A lack of a fully sensitive nerve system all helps. Therefore, crushing is a fine way of 'killing' plants. Animals on the other hand are very different. Like I said before, how many decapitated animals still carry on functioning fully? I could give a fair few analogies, but I'm tired and most of the time they go over people's heads. I've just read some of you posts and its not clear what question you are asking. For the purpose of clear, meaningful debate please repeat your question in a clear, coherent manner. Thanks.

I thought that jhatka was a common practice. In WW2, sikh soldiers serving in greece and crete would give the heads of goats to the locals as the natives considered them a delicacy. It doesnt take a genius to figure out what the singhs did with the rest of the goat. As for the plant/animal theory, proposed by only five, surely that means we shouldnt eat plants either then? These fundamentalist really cant come up with any good analogies. I suggest you keep your 'argument' on sikhsangat where the mods can protect you from rational debate.

Well he sure as hell wasn't portuguese. Makes me wonder why ethnicity is so important if islam is meant to be for all people. Unless of course islam has its own version of racial superiority inherent in its social structure across the middle east. It would explain the link between the mufti and the fuhrer.

The thing is that these big money payouts hurt them, but they also galvanize public opinion against sikhs. Read the comments on the daily mail site and you will see the never-ending whining that i affectionately describe as 'white noise'. If we could get the culprits sent to prison for racism/intolerance/bullying of different people, we would see a drop in racism. Mind you, these people would then whine that sikhs are imprisoning those whites they dont like and claim racists are just patriots/expressing their right to free speech etc. The more i think about it, the more i think that they will always justify racists for saying in public what they wish they could also get away with saying. These whingers are beginning to get out of hand in britain. Maybe it will all end with 'rivers of blood'. Thanks to attitudes like theirs, i'll make sure i go down fighting.

The thing is, in this country, when someone takes people to court over racism issues, the only way to hurt them is to claim money. If these sorts of racist attitudes/actions were punishable with prison sentences, we would see a massive change overnight. However, by forcing people to go down the monetary route, it allows the white 'silent' majority to whinge that the victims are after money and that racism doesnt exist etc, which is an attitude I am sick of seeing them have. As for the payout? Nowhere near enough - considering how every white man, woman and child has benefited from what these lot stole from the punjab and then invested in their country. Did my grandfather and grandmother get any money for what they lost in partition thanks to the british? Like hell they did. No sikh should put up with any insolence from these people.

balaclavas for those who have kesh. and those who dont. we have to keep our heads warm dont we? and some nice meat tenderisers for multi purpose uses.

You've touched on a very good point there - why do sikhs stay stuck in attitudes that are well out of date? another example is how we as a nation cannot fathom the threat of organised hindu fanaticism. just because our ancestors only ever faced maharattas (which they beat the living daylights out of) when it came to large hindu nationalist forces, does not mean that over time the threat didnt grow. and then we end up with 1984 and being ghetto-ised in east punjab.

I saw on sky news how the EDL had put indian, israeli and jamaican flags on one of the buses they used to get to birmingham. I found it funny at first but realised that if they really do have links to the BNP, then these sort of gestures will help get support from ordinary whites by 'convincing' them they are not racist. That will open the door to more BNP support....... Also of interest: http://www.easterneye.eu/news.html?groupId=7&newsId=5395#top I think its a lie as i havent found anything on http://www.englishdefenceleague.org/index.html If it is a lie, then we need to complain at these journalists who like to scaremonger about what sikhs are supposedly doing. One minute they say we have links to al-qaeda and then to the EDL, its hard sometimes trying to keep up with who we're meant to be in cahoots with! lol

so he was a hindu then!! lol. the RSS are going to be glad one of their lies is actually true.

they dont. read a few posts on the first page to see where i mentioned how his intolerance is skewing all his posts in one direction. you could ask why he is bothered by everyone else's opinions.

so your faith is exactly as laid down by those you mentioned? i somehow doubt anyone can fully comply with people from that far back in time, especially as they didnt put a lot of it in writing. and why is having an arab belief system mean you are an arab? if an african beleives in russian communism, it does not make him a russian. trying to present my points as twisted logic will not work as i will just point out how you are messing about. shi'ism, suni'ism, why is it that some people always like to cut something down to the lowest denominator they can think of just to make themselves feel unique? islam is islam. before we know it, ishraqi will be a buddhist or a ravidassia. you really shouldnt treat religion like fashion. and is this queen fatimah some kind of link to a persian pagan goddess?

wait, the muslims have a queen of the universe? what are you lot on about?

did i say you cursed them? i said you imply that non-sikhs use low language, are stupid etc. maybe you should just watch what you say and think that if its not worded well it can cause issues. my post is 'replete with abuse'? there were a few in that post but it was hardly overflowing with them. and thank you for complimenting me on my lack of immaturity. one of us has to be the adult here. do you know or experienced what this 'cul' is like? he hysterically spouts his own misinterpretations again and again. on the jeendan kaur thread, he attacked me and sikhs in general for no reason. he does it elsewhere aswell. i just realised i havent put capitals at the start of any sentences in my posts. my bad. i shouldnt have got so used to autocorrect on MSword.

i did. it is clear your english is unbelievably basic. what rule? i never mentioned any. if you want to be pedantic about grammar, then i could have ripped apart most of your posts on that basis alone. but i chose to ignore most of your typos, and only went on about those sentences you had constructed in order to deliberately twist my points. you are no engineer, as most engineers listen to sound advice. you must be a rubbish engineer with an attitude like yours.

why, can't you understand them otherwise?

wow! finally you admit you make mistakes, and what big ones as well. we can all see you are a bigot now, especially with how you view non-sikhs. as you're not a journalist and you dont know much about many things, the rest of your post is irrelevant posturing on your part.

a 'set of european arab set of ideas'?! i never used that phrase. what on earth are you on about now? if your referring to the arab muslim and european belief system, well i'm referring to your own belief system which is a result of your experiences, and your lack of ability to deal with certain issues.

did i say you edited it? no - i told you not to go and change it like you did with other posts. once again you have been proved to have such ignorance and bad levels of english that you cannot even comprehend simple sentences let alone type one. and sikhs are known to maintain some ethics? well you're not a sikh then. and what does it say for non-sikhs? stop being a bigot. there are many non-sikhs who are better humans than you. and your question about women voting, as well as being entirely random, was worded so badly, most probably on purpose. that way you can spin my replies and drag out your pathetic ideas.

i never said there was. another unbelievably faulty and misinformed assumption on your part.