Niranjana

w-bol, as an impartial observer, I would urge you to answer the questions laid out by Singho within the context presented, I think most people are aware of the Moral Police issues and other aspects of the Iranian regime, however the rationale behind these practices has been provided by Singho - whether one agrees with them or not is another matter, however for purposes of a proper debate and discussion, please can you (as the default Indian side) argue with Singho in the context of the debate and refrain from trying to bombard the discussion with superflous information and running through just about every logical fallacy in your comments as a result. This stands to be an interesting discussion and exploration into most politics and sociology, as a keen observer, I am looking forward to your further contributions alongside those of Singho.

Must be the Buddha Dal version "coz, its puratan sampradha innit"

wahegurubol, Are you sure that these people really regard the Shivaling as God? Are you familiar with the history of the Shivalingam and its other representations - as Singho as alluded that representation that you are offering is one that has gained currency in the West and amongst non-Hindus in particular, perhaps have another look at the issue. Singho - you stated: "Doesn't SGGS acknowledge Shiva? And Guru Gobind Singh exhorts Shiva? And nihang Singh is image of Shiva? And Shiva in form your described represents your father's line?" Please for clarification, could you expand on what you mean by 'acknowledge' and 'exhort' in the above statements and also why you consider a Nihang Singh, the image of Shiva (is he not semi-naked, jattadhari, smeared with ash and hence more akin to some forms of Udasi Sadhus rather than the clothed, keshdhari Nihangs?) I also wasn't able to fully follow your last statement about "your father's line".

I'm not sure he's making fun of them - in fact, quite the opposite, but then again, it's probably hard to read it that way if "you're not from Englaaaand"

Freed - your comments would appear echo the underlying message in Amritpal Singh's page concerning his conversation with Nihang Niddar Singh.

I love the response that Amritpal Singh gets from Sikh Sangat, it's truly a remarkable testimony to just how Jathabandis and Sampradhas with heavy political leanings have poisioned the minds of the youth such that they are indeed as Javanmard suggests "rotten inside out".

amardeep - that is a good question. It is not found in either! Whilst some copies of the Dasam Granth can be found inclusive of the Uggardanti, these are more exceptions than the norm. The most common location of this bani is usually in Chandi di Var gutkas as a supplication after the main piece.

amardeep, kam, From what I have noted, most respected scholars (modern era and historical) agree upon, the Sri Guru Granth Sahib (inclusive of Raagmala) and the Sri Dasam Granth Sahib (inclusive of Charitropakhyan) being Gurbani and both the works of our Gurus. As alluded above, whether a Gurdwara has parkash of both Granths simultaneously is really a non-issue, but the fact remains that where the Sri Dasam Granth Sahib is kept (be it a Gurdwara, Dera or personal home), it is typically treated with the same respect as the Sri Guru Granth Sahib, attesting to its appropriate reverence. For these two scriptures, "Bani hai Guru, Guru hai Bani" would seem to apply without any significant opposition. Other texts such as, Sri Sarabloh Parkash, Prem Sumarg, Sau Sakhi etc, there remains sustained doubt over authorship and hence the application of the above 'tuk' is harder to apply conclusively. The involvement of a degree of sampradha and jatha politics is also at play with regard to these texts which is evident from who aligns themselves with which writings...

"Amardeep that's exactly what it is. I have know both types of Sikhi and to be honest they're both rotten inside out. Sad but true" Sampradhas and Jathabandis...hmmm, let's see, the latter will fully qualify as "Neo-Sikhs" and the former are to be honest no different, when one digs beneath the surface...so are they really "two types" or just the same...

I believe that is the only one, the Namdhari faithweb site has a downloadable link for a recitation of this Bani as well as Gurbani from the Sri Dasam Granth Sahib (Akal Ustat, Chandi Charitr and Chandi di Var) by Master Darshan Singh.

amardeep wrote: "Is it is Gurbani, would it not have the status of Guru then?" --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In view of its unclear origins, linguistic differences and relative obscurity, what would you suggest? Moreso, given the various points made above and on other similar threads?

Javanmard wrote the following to Homer Simpson: Look: 1. I don't convert people 2. Especially not retards like you ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- JM, 1. We know that is a lie, you have been seen on several occasions trying to convert people into Lizards with your reptilian agenda inspired by David Icke. 2. Please do convert Homer Simpson! Admin Note: I spent hours filtering junk from this thread. Homer Simpson and Javanmard. Please take your cat and mouse game over the pm, forum doesnt need flooding with your personal attacks against each other. Verbal Warning to Javanmard- not to post messages which sounds like threats on the forum and verbal warning to Homer Simpson aka beetlejuice - this is your last chance if you cannot control your emotions and anger and break forum rules this time it will be I.P BAN of your host on your id which means you cannot register again. Please keep it clean. Thread started by javanmard is genuine, even SA team like to know some answers. I personally like to hear directly from source not third party or phalna phalna singh in the akhara. "Don't confuse lenientcy on the forum with incompetency"

HS - I'm not sure that the link provided is unrelated to this thread.

HS wrote: "Niranjana, that link just seeks out to proove each others religions false. I do not see how that link has answered the questions. Thanks anyway" I wasn't seeking to answer the questions with the link, however given the way in which this topic seems to be flavour of the month for every single thread one chooses to check, it certainly highlights the main thoughts behind the proposition if they weren't clear on this forum and/or not raised on this forum (as yet).

"Balbir Singh got Baba Surjeet Singh violently sidelined. What I don't understand is Budha Dal UK members claiming they support Baba Surjeet Singh and their leader taking bayah with Balbir Singh" Was it not Balbir Singh's family members who were murdered?

There is a school of thought that the writings found in the Dasam Granth can be classified into three components: 1. Gurmat/Spiritual/Teachings 2. Historical 3. Translations Chandi Path (Chandi di Var, Chandi Charitr Ukti Bilas, Chandi Charitr) tends to be classified under point (3) under such thought. I have some questions that I could be grateful for the forum's input: 1. If this is the case, then why the need for 3 separate translations? 2. How should we view the closing stanza of Chandi Di Var ("...pher na jooni aaya, jin eh gaya") and various references in the other compositions alluding to obtaining Ridh-Sidhs, mitigation of sins etc upon recitation/hearing of the Bani in question. Are these mere translations, poetic nuances or the intended message of Guru Gobind Singh? Thanks, Niranjana.

amardeep, The authorship of Sri Guru Granth Sahib and the Sri Dasam Granth Sahib is not disputed by the vast majority of Sikhs, be they Sampradha based or mainstream, those who challenge the authencity of the Sri Guru and the Sri Dasam Granth Sahibs tend to be "Bhasaurias" of one kind or the other, i.e. AKJ, Tapoban, IOSS, Kala Afghana etc etc. The vast majority of the mainstream Panth and those who align themselves with Sampradhas accept the authencity of these works without question, the issue of whether the Sri Dasam Granth should be treated as the Sri Guru Granth Sahib (i.e. for daily parkash etc) is the only issue in practice, however those who have copies of the Sri Dasam Granth at their homes, tend to do just this. As per the Sri Sarabloh Granth/Parkash, this is something that needs more clarity. Pandit Tara Singh Narotam's views are clear on the subject and the common critique of his analysis can be found on this forum, however this has yet to achieve credence amongst the wider scholarly community, nonetheless to ascribe the works to Bhai Sukha Singh or to "scrupulous elements" is a little far fetched, since the writing style, albeit different from the quality in the Dasam Granth is still highly commendable and in of itself as a text, the Sri Sarabloh Granth is remarkable - Gurbani or not. Nonetheless, the more common tale of the Udasi finding the text in the 18th century and it then coming into the possession of the Nihangs is something that throws up a whole load of questions, mainly that if the Nihangs are, as they claim, a direct lineage from Guru Gobind Singh with full intact parampara etc etc, then why did such a critical item such as the Sri Sarabloh Granth, nay Sarabloh Gur Darbar, have to come into their possession via secondary means? tsingh - great post and as always, very informative, good to have your contributions return.

Homer, I believe the issues that are being repeatedly brought up here can be followed in single thread on the following forum: http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?sh...mp;#entry898801

Wow, what a shocker, Akali Nihang Baba Ajit Singh Poola wasn't the only one to have this sickening problem...

Neo - the thing is that the Sikh Sangat thread is not a joke, the entire community is a joke, since in another generation or so, we will be left with these individuals in charge of institutions where the present day incumbents themselves are short of the necessary qualifications... ...of couse people will say, "waa will ya do to sort it owt?" But Homer Simpson says: "Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals ... except the weasel"

Good heavens, I am mortified reading the last few posts by JM and forward backwards, really says a lot about this community, when western born, educated youth, with full access to education, free thinking and knowledge, cannot even write coherent English, particularly seeing that one of these is even a scholar at the most prestigious university in the entire universe, no wonder the world is in chaos! You had your chances guys, Neo Singh has tried hard to moderate this forum to ensure quality and not quantity remain priorities, however alas, he has failed on both accounts and its all your fault!

Here is a similar discussion on the "bipran ki reet" item: http://www.sikhawareness.com/sikhawareness...6d8bccb4e30f74d

Matheen, I agree that it is from "the commonly quoted line: "Jab Lag Khalsa Rahey Niyara......." However we need to establish firmly (1) its source and (2) the meaning of "bipran ki reet".

Deep singh writes: Also, if you don't wear bana are you doing bipran ki reet ? following the ways of the world. Or it doesn't matter what we wear. Living in the west can we still adopt bana? Or is it just history . Should the youth be encouraged to also adopt bana. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Please could someone clarify what we mean by "Bipran ki reet"? As described above, the phrase in itself doesn't refer to "the ways of the world", but is a lot more specific than that, moreover where is this quote taken from? Without this establishing a firm understanding of this, this discussion will be based on faulty rationale... There are 3HO, Taksalis, AKJ, Tapoban and Nihangs Jatha/Sampradha Sikhs living in the west who support the notion of wearing "bana" and do so to School, Work etc. however, it is easy enough to see that their "bana" varies considerably between them and in actuality does more to distinguish them as 3HO, Taksali, AKJ, Tapobani or Nihangs than simply serving the merit of being a Khalsa Singh. Furthermore, most can also be seen to wear both what they consider as "bana" and western attire depending on where they are and what they are doing, either way the consistent factor remains a dastaar and kachhera. As Matheen has highlighted and as alluded to by in the Sikh Rehit Maryada, the requirement for a Sikh man is a dastaar and kachhera insofar as bana is considered.

Deep Singh writes: "I don't know if you are trying to make fun of me or not, no i don't want a picture. What is the difference between a kachera and a underwear?" You have been provided with links, references, quotes and information, yet you feel this is making fun of you? Moreover, you continue to repeat your question without even considering the information provided... The Kachhera is at one level simply a sewn up dhoti. One knows that a dhoti is a complete dress in its own right, hence so too is a kacherra, as per the above quote from Panth Parkash, we know that Singhs would wear simply wear a Kachhera (of course these would be of a heavier nature than perhaps what is worn today, where to an extent, yes they have become a form of underwear, however still provide the necessary means to be worn by themselves if required).