Niranjana

"it has become quite fashionable to blaim everything and anything on Jatts" Maybe for a reason - never smoke without fire. The issue as I said earlier is one of 'land and power' - shame no one can comment upon that, but instead we see the usual, oh we poor humble but strong Jatts, the backbone of the Panth are not to blame, how dare you suggest such a thing...but of course it is okay to bring in the old "Hindus = bad" argument: "As far as I am concerned, these people are not Sikhs, they are just Hindus" If one looks at the Sikh Diaspora and the amount of ritualistic obession that runs through it, one can very easily notice that we have a lot more of it than the "Hindus" that we just love to criticise!

"it has become quite fashionable to blaim everything and anything on Jatts" Maybe for a reason - never smoke without fire. The issue as I said earlier is one of 'land and power' - shame no one can comment upon that, but instead we see the usual, oh we poor humble but strong Jatts, the backbone of the Panth are not to blame, how dare you suggest such a thing...but of course it is okay to bring in the old "Hindus = bad" argument: "As far as I am concerned, these people are not Sikhs, they are just Hindus" If one looks at the Sikh Diaspora and the amount of ritualistic obession that runs through it, one can very easily notice that we have a lot more of it than the "Hindus" that we just love to criticise!

"just wanted to start a discussion on Khalsa Raj" Please could someone provide a definition of "Khalsa Raj" and with it explain the following: 1. Where in Gurbani (either SGGS or SDGS and/or the writings of Bhai Gurdas Ji or Bhai Nand Lal) is an explicit reference made to the term "Khalsa Raaj" 2. What will be the intended legal structure and framework of this 'Raaj'? "I have heard some people talk about it like it's going to happen soon" Yes, I believe I have been hearing this story for several years: - Yogi Bhajan and 3HO have frequently provided stories which effectively imply that believe they will lead this from the year 2012 (be sure not to miss it whilst watching the London Olympics, afterall Yogi Bhajan was fulfilling some sacred pro "just wanted to start a discussion on Khalsa Raj" Please could someone provide a definition of "Khalsa Raj" and with it explain the following: 1. Where in Gurbani (either SGGS or SDGS and/or the writings of Bhai Gurdas Ji or Bhai Nand Lal) is an explicit reference made to the term "Khalsa Raaj" 2. What will be the intended legal structure and framework of this 'Raaj'? "I have heard some people talk about it like it's going to happen soon" Yes, I believe I have been hearing this story for several years: - Yogi Bhajan and 3HO have frequently provided stories which effectively imply that believe they will lead this from the year 2012. Be sure not to miss it whilst watching the London Olympics, after all Yogi Bhajan was fulfilling some sacred prophecy in ‘raising X thousand Sikhs from the west’…funnily enough, is that not the very same prophecy that the British created and attributed to Guru Tegh Bahadur to further their own Raj whilst gullible Sikhs fell for the obvious joke! Oh yes, I almost forgot, 3HO are better Sikhs than Punjabis because they are white and not plagued with ‘Indian’ cultural habits (I guess American culture is all fine by comparison?) - during the 1990s various doomsday Babas were citing 1999 (for God knows what significance!) as an important day and encouraging people to ‘do lots of paath’ and ‘take amrit’ to save themselves! - back in the 1980's many believed that "Sant Baba Jarnail Singh Bindranwale Khalsa Ji Amar Shaheed" was Guru Gobind Singh returned to 'wake up' the Panth and bring forth the much desired 'Khalsa Raaj'. This same period saw Talwinder Singh Parmar of the Babbar Khalsa also heralded as a ‘jindashaheed’ and receiving a lot of praise for his efforts to ‘awaken’ the Panth through his numerous Amrit Sanchars (of course what is often omitted in the finer detail is that he would charge quite a hefty fee for those seeking Amrit!!!) - and even earlier, during the last 1800s there were numerous stories about that great last Jatt hope Maharaja Duleep Singh returning to Punjab and establishing the Khalsa Raaj with the help of the Russias and various others! Sorry, but the sceptic in me cannot ignore the common link between all of these accounts (and several others which I have omitted in the interest of space). “Does anyone have any info on that?†Try asking Mystic Meg – I’m sure something so significant will be on every fortune tellers prediction list. “Also some people say Guru Gobind Singh will come back†Yes, others also say that Bindranwale will come back and Satguru Ram Singh will return…that the hidden Imam will be releaved…that the Christ has yet to come…there is a very long list of variations on a common theme of a return to the ‘golden era’…interestingly Nazi literature also has at its foundations similar thinking. “I wanted to ask what Khalsa Raj will look like and how it will be brought about and also how it will be ruled†Yes, I would love to know, maybe our enlightened members will be kind enough to grace us with answers to these obvious questions and cast away what must clearly be mistaken doubt on part of this foolish poster (i.e me, Niranjana).

"just wanted to start a discussion on Khalsa Raj" Please could someone provide a definition of "Khalsa Raj" and with it explain the following: 1. Where in Gurbani (either SGGS or SDGS and/or the writings of Bhai Gurdas Ji or Bhai Nand Lal) is an explicit reference made to the term "Khalsa Raaj" 2. What will be the intended legal structure and framework of this 'Raaj'? "I have heard some people talk about it like it's going to happen soon" Yes, I believe I have been hearing this story for several years: - Yogi Bhajan and 3HO have frequently provided stories which effectively imply that believe they will lead this from the year 2012 (be sure not to miss it whilst watching the London Olympics, afterall Yogi Bhajan was fulfilling some sacred pro "just wanted to start a discussion on Khalsa Raj" Please could someone provide a definition of "Khalsa Raj" and with it explain the following: 1. Where in Gurbani (either SGGS or SDGS and/or the writings of Bhai Gurdas Ji or Bhai Nand Lal) is an explicit reference made to the term "Khalsa Raaj" 2. What will be the intended legal structure and framework of this 'Raaj'? "I have heard some people talk about it like it's going to happen soon" Yes, I believe I have been hearing this story for several years: - Yogi Bhajan and 3HO have frequently provided stories which effectively imply that believe they will lead this from the year 2012. Be sure not to miss it whilst watching the London Olympics, after all Yogi Bhajan was fulfilling some sacred prophecy in ‘raising X thousand Sikhs from the west’…funnily enough, is that not the very same prophecy that the British created and attributed to Guru Tegh Bahadur to further their own Raj whilst gullible Sikhs fell for the obvious joke! Oh yes, I almost forgot, 3HO are better Sikhs than Punjabis because they are white and not plagued with ‘Indian’ cultural habits (I guess American culture is all fine by comparison?) - during the 1990s various doomsday Babas were citing 1999 (for God knows what significance!) as an important day and encouraging people to ‘do lots of paath’ and ‘take amrit’ to save themselves! - back in the 1980's many believed that "Sant Baba Jarnail Singh Bindranwale Khalsa Ji Amar Shaheed" was Guru Gobind Singh returned to 'wake up' the Panth and bring forth the much desired 'Khalsa Raaj'. This same period saw Talwinder Singh Parmar of the Babbar Khalsa also heralded as a ‘jindashaheed’ and receiving a lot of praise for his efforts to ‘awaken’ the Panth through his numerous Amrit Sanchars (of course what is often omitted in the finer detail is that he would charge quite a hefty fee for those seeking Amrit!!!) - and even earlier, during the last 1800s there were numerous stories about that great last Jatt hope Maharaja Duleep Singh returning to Punjab and establishing the Khalsa Raaj with the help of the Russias and various others! Sorry, but the sceptic in me cannot ignore the common link between all of these accounts (and several others which I have omitted in the interest of space). “Does anyone have any info on that?†Try asking Mystic Meg – I’m sure something so significant will be on every fortune tellers prediction list. “Also some people say Guru Gobind Singh will come back†Yes, others also say that Bindranwale will come back and Satguru Ram Singh will return…that the hidden Imam will be releaved…that the Christ has yet to come…there is a very long list of variations on a common theme of a return to the ‘golden era’…interestingly Nazi literature also has at its foundations similar thinking. “I wanted to ask what Khalsa Raj will look like and how it will be brought about and also how it will be ruled†Yes, I would love to know, maybe our enlightened members will be kind enough to grace us with answers to these obvious questions and cast away what must clearly be mistaken doubt on part of this foolish poster (i.e me, Niranjana).

This isn't actually news - the Akal Thakt has long been defied over very simple matters of rehit and protocol by various groups (all at odds with each other and all claiming the much desired 'original puratan chak de phate form of the Khalsa blah blah blah' title based on little more than fairy tales and fantasy costumes and best of all, 'dreams' that their cult leaders had) - the reason is simple, it boils back down to the standard Punjabi Jatt obsession: Land and Power. Dress up however you guys want to, call it want you want, but deep down inside, it is pretty obvious that just about everything that kicks off in Sikh circles when broken down to the lowest common denominator boils down to little more than Jatt pride.

"londondajatt, then lets presume that non sgpc influenced sikhs are hazoori sikhs (witch they are). We are the cloosest thing to hazoori sikhs outside of india. we keep it puritan, but influenced sgpc british sikhs keep on crapping on us. Plp like akj sikhs and there non khasla traditions" gsinghysingh, you indicate that you are based in Britain, yet you seem to struggle with even the basics of the language (surely you mean 'which' and not 'witch' and 'their' rather than 'there' and all this while you are on a rant about maintaining so called 'traditions'. Could you please for sake of clarity give a definition of the term "Hazoori Singh" - this term can mean three different things, would be interested to read your clarification on the use of the term here. Moreover, you make reference to "influenced sgpc british sikhs" (surely you mean "British influenced SGPC Sikhs" but anyhow, we have established that grammar doesn't matter to 'Puratin' Sikhs since even their favourite website fails to distinguish between the use of the pre-cursor 'non' and the word 'none') and then go on in the same context to mention the AKJ. Last time I check, the AKJ themselves have issues with the SGPC (over the usual shenanigans about dress codes for women and that old favourite topic ‘meat’), perhaps you could also comment about the British-influence on the groups who you no doubt deem to be ‘puratin’, in particular the Nihangs and Nirmalas – a tad bit of honest research in which you make an effort to avoid things such as the ‘confirmation bias’ and ‘ludic fallacy’ may go someway in clearing up a lot of the mess that gets touted on Sikh websites in the name of so-called ‘scholarship’.

As I mentioned above, Dr P Singh's analysis, right or wrong, and his subsequent treatment (altogether wrong) both point towards a failing amongst Sikhs on a core 'theological' issue - what is a Guru and what constitutes 'dhur ki bani'.

Veer Ji Shaheediyan, the issue with the Akal Thakt clearly has an underlying political angle given those raising the matter have an ongoing dispute with Professor Hew McLeod (on which note, I wholly agree with several of the issues raised against McLeod's analysis, however wholly disagree with the Ad Hominem attacks on his person and the inability of several Sikh 'scholars' to address his comments via the appropriate channels). The charges brought against Dr P Singh relate fundamentally to a number of his articles whereby he is alledged to have suggested that the written actual text of "Gurbani" has been changed (I believe the book you reference above by G S Mann deals with a similar topic). Hew McLeod decribes the situation as follows: On November 22, 1991, the University of Toronto conferred on him the degree of Ph.D. PashauraSingh had earned the degree in Religious Studies with a dissertationentitled "The Text and Meaning of the Adi Granth," and was the firstperson to have graduated at the doctoral level in Sikh Studies from a Canadian university. The following year, in September 1992, he was appointed to a nontenured position in Sikh and Punjabi Studies at theUniversity of Michigan. Meanwhile his Ph.D. dissertation had been photocopied without authorization and copies of it were freely circulated around North America and other parts of the world. The first article concerning the dissertation appeared on October 2, 1992 in World Sikh News, a Sikh newspaper published from Stockton,California. Numerous articles and letters followed during the lattermonths of 1992 and early in 1993, many of them roundly accusing Pashaura Singh of the most monstrous blasphemy. Soon they were followed by judgment from the Punjab. A group was appointed by the Dharam Parchar Committee of the Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee (the S.G.P.C. and this group issued a statement supporting the accusation of blasphemy. This statement was subsequently confirmed on November 2 by the S.G.P.C., which notified its decision in a press statement issued by thepresident, Gurcharan Singh Tohra. In view of the seriousness of the matter, the statement declared: "Sikh sangats [congregations] the world over and the gurdwaras [sikh temples] should boycott and not extend any cooperation, whatsoever, to S. Pashaura Singh." The S.G.P.C. also drew attention to the fact that Pashaura Singh had committed blasphemy in a dissertation written "under the supervision of Dr. McLeod,"who has "been at work for long with a view to creating confusion among the Sikhs throughout the world, regarding authenticity of the holyGurbani embodied in the holy Guru Granth Sahib. Pashaura Singh was scarcely a person who might be expected to commit blasphemy. A loyal Amrit-dhari Sikh, he had been educated in Gurmat College (a theological institution in Patiala) and was awarded a Gold Medal for his final results in the M.A. He was then employed by a Sikh school in New Delhi as a teacher of Sikh history and religion. Subsequently he took up an appointment as granthi (clergyman) in the Calgary gurdwara and while there completed another M.A. degree from the University of Calgary. This provided him with the means to apply for entry to the University of Toronto, where he wrote the dissertation that has created so much controversy. In this dissertation he applied the routine techniques of textual criticism to the sacred scripture of the Sikhs. This he did with considerable caution and reverence, and the work which he produced seemed to those practiced in the art of textual criticism to be a generally conservative one. But his treatment was certainly not represented as conservative bythose who had photocopied the dissertation. Accompanied by damning comments the dissertation was circulated widely. There were two major objections lodged against Pashaura Singh's dissertation, together with one other complaint. This last was PashauraSingh's reference to Guru Arjan as having been "killed," whereas Sikh tradition had always regarded him as being "martyred." It was a complaint easily answered, though not easily communicated to those who had made it. In the draft dissertation Pashaura Singh had actually referred to the Guru as being martyred, but one of his examiners had objected to the term and had required him to substitute a neutral word. The two major objections were as follows. Firstly, Pashaura Singh had made use of the recently discovered MS 1245 in the library of Guru Nanak Dev University, judging it to be earlier than Guru Arjan's Kartarpur text of 1603-4 C.E. (the text which is traditionally regardedas the substance of the Adi Granth) and treating it as one of the versions used by the Guru when compiling his final copy. Ms 1245 contained the hymns of the Gurus in a form that was very similar to that recorded in the 1603-4 text. Several reasons were advanced for the slightly earlier date which Pashaura Singh thought should be attached to MS 1245, including the Gurmukhi style in which it was written. The difference in age separating the two versions was not very great, Pashaura Singh estimating that MS 1245 would have been copied between 1595and 1604 CE. Secondly, Pashaura Singh was alleged to have claimed that the wording of the Adi Granth was different from what the Gurus had originally uttered. Most of this aspect of the dispute concerned the wording of the Mul Mantra, the "Basic Credal Statement" with which the scripture begins. The Mul Mantra is believed to be by Guru Nanak and Pashaura Singh was able to show that older versions of the text differed marginally from the version which was recorded under the supervision of Guru Arjan in the Kartarpur manuscript. The variant readings made no difference to the actual meaning of the Mul Mantra. These were variants in spelling and in the extra wording which distinguishes the laterversions. Two earlier texts were used. These were that of the Goindval Pothis and, a little later, that of MS 1245.

This is absolutely sickening. "She was denied aid by her aunt, her father's younger sister to whom she turned to for help on two occasions" The main issue here (in terms of what the community at large need to commence work on ASAP and very aggresively at that too) is this repeated theme of 'suffering in silence' when it comes to abuse and depression, particularly with regard to women. This is not the first case involving such sickening acts conducted by a 'Granthi' and sadly, I doubt it will be the last, however it is down to the community at large to wake up and stop turning a blind eye to such pleas for help, which is all too common. In the UK, it is frequently reported that 'Asian' women have higher rates of depression and 'self-harm'. Despite the current media frenzy against Muslims in the UK, the reality is that recent cases of 'asian' females suffering in silence have largely been Sikh, contrary to the positive self-image that many Sikhs would like to believe about themselves. It is high time that Gurdwaras and Community leaders engage this issue head-on, rather than wasting time on arguing over non-issues such as dress codes and whether or not Sikhs can eat meat, which seem to be the only bloody things Gurdwaras, Babas, Committees and others seem to care about!

There are 'stories' (accounts/sakhis/folktales - depending on your take) of the late and much respect Sant Attar Singh Mastuanewale reciting this 'Chand' repeatedly during his time at Hazoor Sahib (I believe the foremost propagator of this story is one 'Sant Baba' Maan Singh - who most will no doubt remember for his alleged 'sex slaves' incident a few years back). The late 'Yogi Bhajan' and his 3HO with their usual 'new age' influenced Sikhi chant this as part of their special morning 'sadhana for the aquarian age' (supposedly Yogi-ji knew that the chants that form part of this 'sadhana' were the best selection until 2012 - not sure if this has anything to do with the London Olympics). According to 3HO, this offers 'protection' and was used by Guru Gobind Singh alongside a particular 'Yoga' exercise peculiar to Yogi Bhajan's Kundalini Yoga when training his Khalsa Troops.

Laal Singh, you are correct Dr Pashaura Singh was summoned by the Akal Thakt for his writings, which he, as a respectable Sikh (contrary to the opinion of many), did dutifully appear for 'peshi'. Many like to insult Dr P Singh as some sort of lax Sikh, forgetting that he is an Amritdhari Sikh and served as a Granthi himself (with considerable qualification I may add - something that seems to be amiss with the majority of the village idiots we find peddling as Granthis and 'Ragis' in most Gurdwaras). The "issue" with Dr Singh's work is simple and can largely boil down to a theological argument over the status of the Guru and largely reflects several errors in the methods applied by numerous present day Sikhs and writers about the Sikh tradition - namely viewing Sikhism (and for that matter other Indian religious and cultural traditions) through the spectacles of Judeo-Christianity or Islam, hence the numerous fruitless arguments over what constitutes a Guru compared to a Prophet and more to the point here, what consitutes 'Dhur Ki Bani'. The number one culprit in this respect is the much loved Teja Singh Bhasauria and his one-time disciple Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh, who whilst studying in a largely Christian influenced educational institution, was clearly affected by such methods when approaching their own tradition, particularly with regard to the status of the Guru, of Gurbani and their origins. Several Sikh Scholars, such as the late S. S. Kohli have made arguments for a more 'Khalsa-centric' approach (although he was not the first to raise this point) to assessing the tradition and I would recommend that the members here familiarise themselves with such notions and re-approach the subject matter. Dr Singh, whilst in many ways approaches matters from a different angle to S S Kohli (the latter actually being quite critical of the former), the personal issue I have in all of this simply relates to the manner in which Dr Singh has been hounded by the Sikh establishment, including the likes of the Damdami Taksal who to this day spread malicious lies about him not appearing before the Akal Thakt in their bog-standard rant about Hew McLeod - have a listen to the 'katha' sections on their various websites for further information.

It's not only in Canada that the Sikh community has such problems - it is common to see suicide amongst young Sikh mothers in the UK. Here is a another variant on twisted behaviour from a Sikh male: Thug jailed for religious attack; EXCLUSIVE SIKH TARGETED HINDU WOMAN AT STATION BYLINE: JEANETTE OLDHAM SECTION: FEATURES; Pg. 6 LENGTH: 355 words A THUG who spat on and punched a woman in a racist attack at a Midland train station has been jailed for 14 months. Harvinder Johal, from Moyses Croft, Smethwick, targeted the young Hindu as she waited at the station in Smethwick. The 32 year-old Sikh has now been jailed after earlier pleading guilty to religiously aggravated common assault. The case is believed to be only the second prosecution for a religiously aggravated crime in the Midlands. Police sources say the woman was waiting for a train when Johal allegedly approached her and said he did not like Hindus. Witnesses say the woman tried to ignore him and moved to sit next to a young Muslim woman, who was wearing traditional dress. Johal is said to have followed her and launched into a tirade of derogatory remarks about Muslims. These allegedly included an attack on British boxer Amir Khan - who is Muslim - and other remarks in which he stated he did not like Muslims "because they blow up trains". Sources say that Johal then spat in the Hindu woman's face. She retaliated by slapping him and he then punched her in the face. The defendant was sentenced to 14 months in prison during a hearing at Wolverhampton Crown Court on June 4, after earlier pleading guilty to the charge at Warley Magistrates Court. He was also handed a three-year Criminal Anti-Social Behaviour Order banning him from Smethwick Galton Bridge railway station. Racist crime in England and Wales has reached record levels, prompting fears of an outbreak of Islamophobia sparked by the war on terror. The number of racist incidents recorded by police in 2006 rose four per cent to 60,407, though the Government says this is only a fraction of those that have occurred. Racially or religiously aggravated offences rose by 12 per cent to 41,382. In November last year, a Black Country accountant was also jailed after accusing a Muslim student in traditional dress of being a terrorist. Brian Frisby abused and harassed the 18 year-old student, including telling her to "go home to Pakistan". The married dad, from Oak Crescent in Tividale, near Dudley, was jailed for nine months.

Dear All, VaheguruJiKaKhalsa! VaheguruJiKiFateh!! Wishing all members a very happy Vaisakhi and trust the coming year will be prosperous for one and all. Sri Guru Nanak Dhyondiya, Guru Gobind Singh Mann nu pondiya, Akaaaal! SAT SRI AKAL!!! GUR BAR AKAL!!!

amardeep, As requested, please see below my ‘initial’ summary thoughts on your question: “Sikhism is a brand new religion without any relations to religions of the past. A Brand new religion.. It has no ties to the past, and gives no answer to why God did not guide(Give Naam) to humanity before the comming of Guru Nanak. This is mostly seen among Akj and other such jathas “ Happy to explain further as to why I do not personally concur with this thought, however in the interim, I think we can set all AKJ literature to one side. They are after all a 20th century revisionist/revivalist organisation, so hardly have the stamp of authenticity on their theories and suffer from what I have referred to in previous posts as the common problem with most fundamentalists: 1. Most fundamentalist claims cannot be proven, and are irrational, demonstrably false, or contrary to (scientific or other) evidence. 2. Fundamentalists try to appear uniform and simple however are usually splitered into mutually antagonistic subgroups with several variations of the underlying premises (usually different texts of (religious) law and arying interpretations), these splinters are often as hostile to each other as they are to others (outsiders). 3. Fundamendalists are typically glued to their leaders and are hence little more than personality cults. 4. Fundamentalists are frequently selective in what they believe and practice. 5. Fundamentalists utlimately seek to claim that the manner in which things are done today is not the same as the way they were done in their original (ancient, puratan, traditional etc) manner since these ‘original’ truths have been been lost or forgotten today – this is the main problem, if these ancient and original truths have been lost and forgotten, how and why do the fundamentalists now know them? This is what typically leads to the above 1 - 4 issues being manifest amongst such groups, be they religious or secular (for those who are interested look up ‘market fundamentalism’ and how it is critiqued along similar lines – Nicholas Nassim Taleb does some fine work in this manner). The above is largely applicable to the AKJ and I think for purposes of your question, we can set aside their views. “Sikhism is a continuation of indian religions, Guru Nanak is here seen as one out of many sargun aspects of God in the line of Krishna, Rama etc. The Message and philosophy of Guru Nanak was the same message/philosophy preached by avatars of the past. A religion that keeps coming back time and time again. Has existed for hundreds of thousands of years and Krishna, Rama etc are all included as different manifestations of God, This view is seen among naamdharis and sanatan sikhs “ The Namdhari view is ‘Sanatan’, since arguably they came from the Sanatan tradition, albeit as a revivalist group. I personally feel the manner in which the UK Sanatanis have positioned this belief is grossly over simplified and easily lends itself to be open to gross misinterpretation (that is, if they themselves are not already guilty of this, given the views of some of their adherents). “Sikhism is an off-shoot of hinduism/Islam being completely dependent on these. The Gurus either owned allegience to the respective founder of each religion A sect of a much greater religion. This sect was started by Guru Nanak in 1469. This view is seen among certain hindues and muslims “ I think we can ignore this view on the basis that it is little more than politically motivated. Those who propagate such views are typically themselves in some sort of political lobby or position and stand to benefit from it or have some personal vendetta that they wish to settle. Certain segments of Hindus hold the view that “Hinduism is the source of everything and everything eventually flows back into Hinduism†according to them, even Muslims are Hindus and a whole host of interesting myths are established regarding Islam being some offshoot from Shivite paganism and a national Arab movement to support such a notion. Rajinder Singh Chaudhry, the self-proclaimed “Jatt Sikh Nirmala†has gone to hard efforts to prove that Sikhism is a continuation of “Christianityâ€, there are several other similar examples too, applicable to Sikhi as they are to all other religions. I personally find all of this talk to be immature and quite petty. “Sikhism is the esoteric aspect of all former religions such as Judaism, Christianity, Islam and "hinduism", the only difference being that this time the Esoteric Ultimate truth was preached openly to mankind with the coming of Guru Nanak. THis theory is based on the fact that the mystical and esoteric sects of semetic religions are quite similiar to Sikhism, and each of these sects claim to be the hidden and real interpretation of Quran bible etc. Sikhism is the Ultimate Truth of all religions. The Message of Sikhism has always existed but has been hidden by the Law of all religions of the past. In order to find this Ultimate Truth(Sikhism) in the religion, one would have to go beyond the exoteric aspect to reach into the core of the esoteric. Sikhism here functions as the sun hidden behind the clouds while still giving its light to the world.... this view is seen among certain nirmalas and saints†Whilst expressed a little more clarity, this also suffers from a similar problem as that mentioned above for the sanatanis, in this case if read simplistically it can result in confusion and I am not sure that Nirmalas perhaps see things as so black and white and necessarily relating Semitic and/or Abrahamic traditions – I’ll leave TSingh to comment on this appropriately. Personally, Sikhism today is an independent religion, however like all traditions, it has evolved over time to become unique in its own right, put it simplistically for comparable purposes, Christianity for a long period was little more than a sect (even blasphemous by certain standards) within the wider Jewish community before expanding to what we see today. That much said, there is no doubting that the underlying philosophical elements of Gurmat link back primarily to the Upanishads, hence my earlier comment regarding your linking back to Semitic/Abrahamic traditions, whilst not doubting there to be considerable similarities between all religions, God, Allah etc are not directly comparable to “Advait Brahman†which is common amongst the Upanishads and Gurmat, although both seek to describe the same underlying ‘ultimate reality’.

"apply Guru Gobind Singh Ji's Svaaiya in Benti Chaupai quite relevantly" Which svaaiya actually appears "in" the Benti Chaupai? I am aware of the Dohras and Chaupai and Arrill measures that precede and follow it, but not any svaaiya? Are you referring to the svaaiya in the Rehiras taken from the "Ram Avtar" composition in Dasam Granth?

Shaheediyan asked with regard to my earlier statement "the whole literal interpretation of "eat little and sleep little" has also had an impact": Do you mean hasn't had an impact? A: No, I meant exactly that, although in hindsight, both - here's why: (a) In your assessment, presumably you are referring to those who eat too much and sleep too much. This part is obvious and agreed in its contribution to bad health and the "fat singh" syndrome. ( I actually had jumped a few steps ahead and not explained myself properly (typical I know!), however on the other end of the above syndrome, I find many 'religious' Sikhs take the above quite literally and in the mistaken belief that 'eating less' will in itself result in weight loss and improved health, end up with some pretty bizarre dietary trends, coupled with reduced sleep and resultant increase in the hormone cortisol, explains the large bellies of otherwise well-intentioned actions. This trend I have tended to find amongst Gyanis and Granthis than amongst the wider sangat.

"we really have no grounds prevent the woman with a Niqab" Of course, for the current political climate, we should heed Fateh Singh's comments above - there was an incident back c. 1999/2000 when someone dressed in this manner entered a Gurdwara in Southall and proceeded to throw dirt (including faeces) at the Guru Granth Sahib - thankfully the lady (subsequently rumoured to have been 'possessed' and/or 'mentally challenged' depending on how you wish to see these things) was stopped by the Granthi (who in the process had the excrement fall on his clothing and beard). Now I am not suggesting that a one-off incident be cause for any knee-jerk reaction, however in view of recent events, particularly the hatemongering calling for "Sikhism to be burnt to the ground" perhaps some acceptable protocol is necessary.

amardeep, I am fully agreeable that "one rule for everyone" is a very limited manner of handling items, afterall as a Sikh, I would find it highly offensive should schools impose their "school uniform codes" to the extent that I be required to shave or not be permitted to wear my turban. I would have hoped that my comments thus far have been calling for a more critical evaluation of the sakhi at hand - in any event, like I said, we should first address our inhouse issue, i.e. the Batra Sangat and their practice of Pardah/"Jhundh" - if this is deemed acceptable (by which I mean 'acceptable' not if they do something which is deemed incorrect then its okay for others to do so as well), then we really have no grounds prevent the woman with a Niqab. Incidently, the title thread actually questioned the Hijab, which is little more than a fixed 'chunni' of sorts and poses no problems within a Gurdwara setting.

These concepts of "Rago, Sato and Tamo" are at best "philosophical" and not scientific, hence the manner in which they are applied in a scientific context (i.e. Auyrvedic Nutritional Science) often results in more than one interpretation. I have see spices qualified as Sato by some, Rajo as others and even Tamo by yet another. Same thing happens when discussing meat, some see it as Tamo, others Rajo. This is whole framework frankly falls on itself when it comes down to hard and fast nutritional science, since Auyrveda is devised from philosophical assumptions not hard science, not to mention the intermingling of prayers and astrology into its 'scientific' reasoning. I agree that the contents of today's Langar has become at times questionable (re: that 'sleepy' feeling one gets after going to the Gurdwara!) however this is not the sole reason for Gyanis being fat - the whole literal interpretation of "eat little and sleep little" has also had an impact as have the lack of exercise and training as Shaheediyan mentioned above (and sorry, Bhai Sahib, a walk around the Gurdwara complex doesn't count as sufficient exercise!)

Pheena, You should write a Koan book...

Fateh Singh, Again, I beg to differ. The protocol concerning who can "enter the Gurdwara" is firmly fixed by all Sikhs of any description (it is a part of the living tradition, much like keeping Kesh, and as such doesn't necessarily require any further authentification). To spell it out in simple terms: Anyone can enter the Gurdwara and partake in Langar and the Divan, provided they abide by Gurdwara protocol (i.e. no smoking, not under the influence of alcohol or drugs, have their heads covered, shoes removed whilst in the Darbar etc). This is not subject to the decisions of committee members, it is part and parcel of Sikh practice and etiquette. The debates on who can do Kirtan in the Gurdwara is understandable given some unsavoury incidents that led up to the, shall we say, executive decision being taken, it is unfortunate that in the aftermath, this has become a "us vs. them" situation...the rest is history. You are now moving away from your original point which was "(s)peaking of hypocrites..." and the following statement: "The quote from Gurbani they like to use is 'Manas Ki Sabh Ekai Jaat Pehchanbo' and yet when needed they can exclude certain ppl from being humanbeings altogether!" If we work with your rationale, then you are implying that the Namdharis are guilty of the above charges (levelled by you) on the following accounts: 1. They are happy to "accept...musical knowledge from Islamic/Hindu/Singh Sabhia sources" yet refer to the same in the most derogatory of manners (i.e. Muslims are our enemies). 2. Also have like the Nihangs a practice of separation for Mazbhis in their divans and langars. As I said, we are walking towards a flawed discussion here which is really not going to add anything to the wider debate and simply stir up animosity between different groups which can easily be avoided in favour of better discussion. I leave it to you...I'm sure Tony will be more than happy (and aptly qualified) to pick up things should you wish to pursue this line of argument further.

Fateh Singh, You are confusing two separate issues in your comparison of caste and religion and general protocol. This argument is flawed in several ways, the attitudes of Gurdwaras and Sangats towards "non-Sikhs" performing Kirtan is varied, in any event, we are not comparing like with like and can easily push this out until the cows come home (e.g. "why do Namdharis insist that Muslims are the enemies in their parchar/historical reasoning, hence considering Blue a forbidden colour, yet many leading Namdhari musicians are disciples of Muslim Ustads and their Sat Guru frequently invites Muslims to his Darbar to perform...I think we can agree that this is a childish argument and is not going to lead anywhere, more importantly belittles the issues rampant amongst certain segments surrounding caste discrimination). As per your suggestion on security concerns, this is much wider debate (and one worth having given the recent political climate), however I believe amardeep's line of questioning is seeking a more 'official' view on the protocol.

Good luck Karmjeet - hope the studies work out well.

amardeep, Whilst acknowledging the rights permitted to slaves under Islamic law (e.g. not to be mistreated or overworked, be properly maintained, slaves could take legal action for a breach of these rules, may own property, may own slaves themselves, can get married if their owner consents, may undertake business on the owner's behalf, female slaves could not be separated from their children if under 7 years old and could not be forced into prostitution, but can become sex workers as concubines), we have to note the paradox in Islam concerning slavery, namely that on one hand we can argue for the supposed humanity of the various injunctions and customs concerning the keeping of slaves however, given that the Prophet himself bought, sold, captured, and owned slaves, the freeing of slaves simply created a demand for new slaves, this as per Islamic law could only be supplied by war furthering the instability of the region and forcing people into slavery or trading slaves. This possibly also explain why slavery persisted until the 19th century in the Islamic world, with the drive towards abolishment coming ironically from colonial powers together with Muslim thinkers arguing strongly for abolition via ‘secular’ law, as is the case today in Islamic countries where slavery is made illegal through secular law rather than the ‘divinely’ revealed sharia. As per your closing comment: "what you are saying is, that a Gurdwara is open for everyone to visit, except for muslim women?" I don't believe this is what anyone is saying and there has been plenty of dialogue to suggest further exploration of the sakhi relating to Guru Amar Das. What we can say is that Gurdwara Protocol is mandatory (i.e. heads covered, no shoes etc etc) uopn all who enter and all are welcome to the Gurdwara provided they behave within the remits of protocol, as is the case for most institutions in the world.

amardeep, Whilst acknowledging the rights permitted to slaves under Islamic law (e.g. not to be mistreated or overworked, be properly maintained, slaves could take legal action for a breach of these rules, may own property, may own slaves themselves, can get married if their owner consents, may undertake business on the owner's behalf, female slaves could not be separated from their children if under 7 years old and could not be forced into prostitution, but can become sex workers as concubines), we have to note the paradox in Islam concerning slavery, namely that on one hand we can argue for the supposed humanity of the various injunctions and customs concerning the keeping of slaves however, given that the Prophet himself bought, sold, captured, and owned slaves, the freeing of slaves simply created a demand for new slaves, this as per Islamic law could only be supplied by war furthering the instability of the region and forcing people into slavery or trading slaves. This possibly also explain why slavery persisted until the 19th century in the Islamic world, with the drive towards abolishment coming ironically from colonial powers together with Muslim thinkers arguing strongly for abolition via ‘secular’ law, as is the case today in Islamic countries where slavery is made illegal through secular law rather than the ‘divinely’ revealed sharia. As per your closing comment: "what you are saying is, that a Gurdwara is open for everyone to visit, except for muslim women?" I don't believe this is what anyone is saying and there has been plenty of dialogue to suggest further exploration of the sakhi relating to Guru Amar Das. What we can say is that Gurdwara Protocol is mandatory (i.e. heads covered, no shoes etc etc) uopn all who enter and all are welcome to the Gurdwara provided they behave within the remits of protocol, as is the case for most institutions in the world.