Niranjana

Gur Fateh! Just to get back to the topic, any thoughts from the forum on some of my original points say, *Mahan Tantric and White Tantra –myth or reality? *Adi Shakti and the Khanda and Shakti Women *Trinity and Triangle symbols (see 3HO symbology on Sikhnet and on the 3HO website and also check out Yogi Bhajan’s speeches on Trinity and the Sri Guru) *Relationship with other Jathas *Impact of Udasi Baba Virsa Das (Singh)

Gur Fateh! Please consider the following links. As you will note these make reference to a variety of methods for naam simran and are not in all instances restricted to Amrit Sanchars or provided on the sole authority of the 5 pyare. Also please note, I have given a variety of sources to show the diveristy in this range, although some of these do concern some celebrated Gursikh Sants/Babas and others more regular Gursikhs (indeed some also from sources outside of the Panth):- http://www.kalgidhartrust.com/Preachingsofsantattarsinghji.htmhttp://www.sikhpoint.com/religion/NaamSimran.asp http://www.earthportals.com/Portal_Messenger/vcm.html http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion....2e?OpenDocument http://www.sarbloh.info/htmls/jaap.html http://www.gurbani.org/webart16.htm http://www.santmat-meditation.net/1/simran.html http://www.jaimalsingh.de/english/contents..._jap_ji/10.html http://www.sikhi.org.uk/articles/?Midcell=...ection=Articles Regards, Niranjana... p.s. Apologies if my or Mugermach Singh's sense of humour has upset anyone.

welcome to the sikhi in the 21st century!

Gur Fateh! Not exactly Neo Jeeo, 3ho aka Sikh Dharma do follow the disciple of Khande da Amrit in full and to their credit are very discipled in their observance and maintenance of their rehit. The vows I refer to are not those given during the Amrit Sanchar, these are standard (although with some variations in places, say no 40th Pauri for small Anand Sahib, wearing Bana 3HO style etc) but rather the vows are taken by those members who wish to become Sikhs, however are not taking Amrit (i.e. Khande Di Paul) as yet. ...i.e. new chap or chappess, having done Kundalini Yoga YB style, likes of the look of what he/she sees vis-a-vis YB and/or his representatives in the classes and gets introduced to Sikhi...wanting to become Sikh, they are administered Charan di Paul and given the aforementioned vows...it is granted, that thereafter most members go on to become Khalsa Singhs and Singhnees through full Khande di Paul, but the Vows (read Charan di Paul) is the route used for new individuals to become Sikh... ...I know this only from my personal involvement within 3HO groups in the past and some friends I still have within the organisation...please feel free to ask any further questions on this front. Interestingly, there are many links between 3HO and AKJ sangats both in terms of outlook and in terms of personalities...but that is another story! GUR BAR AKAAAAL!

Gur Fateh! Amrik Singh, thanks for your comments! Yes this is a version I have used too. In fact, to be honest, those training for martial arts, I would recommend using dumbells over barbells, as they allow for more movement and independence (useful for your fighting!). Cheers, Keep 'em coming!

Gur Fateh! Shasterkovich (great name!), the routine I highlighted is not one I follow at present. Prior to cracking down to the aforementioned routine, I did have a very intensive split routine 5-6 times a week with some pretty heavy lifting for a small person like me, but I would even throw a punch the following day! The above mentioned streamlined routine was done in conjunction with 2-3 times a week sessions of martial arts practice and sparring (which also incorporated some physical exercises) and also cardio work (running and biking) at the same frequency. In view of this, I cut back on the workout to allow for enough energy and reduced soreness for martial practice. Having looked at the write up again, I must say it doesn't fully reflect the set up e.g. Superset 1 would actual be nonstop as follows: -Bent Over Barbell Row (BOBR) x 12 -15 reps (palms down grip) -25 Military Push Ups -BOBR x 12 -15 reps (palms down grip) -20 Wide Push Ups -BOBR x 12 -15 reps (palms down grip) -15 narrow/centreline/diamond push ups -BOBR x 12 -15 reps (palms up grip) -25 Military Push Ups -BOBR x 12 -15 reps (palms up grip) -20 Wide Push Ups -BOBR x 12 -15 reps (palms up grip) -15 narrow/centreline/diamond push ups This would constitute one set (i.e. with no rest in between movements/exercises) and would be repeated 2-3 times in the circuit. To keep tails on the intensity, I would limit the time required for the exercise and on occasion employ the heavy/light system from one week to the other and vary some of the exercises (i.e. subsititute Bench Presses for Push ups etc). After the workout, a solid 15-20 mins of deep stretching is fantastic altogether with some breathing exercises. Again, this is an old routine I used (about 6 months ago) and following an injury I acquired recently have investigated other types of functional exercises before imcreasing the intensity. Please continue to provide your thougths on the matter, this is great!!! Nihalo Jeeo, great news on the nutrition -you remind me of myself (vis-a-vis the Almonds!). Thanks to all for their input (and the humour too!), keep it coming! Yours, Niranjana.

Amrik Singh, I agree with your sentiments. I only began using them after much experience, since then I have used alternative methods (one example was provided). I don't follow the system exactly as I described above, it has since involved with less and less emphasis on weights owing to my lifestyle and requirements. That said, I presented this here as it can easily be changed into a heavy weight workout (replace push ups wiht Bench Presses (wide and narrow), use tricep machines, lat pulldowns...) ....used to do all these before when I was a member of a gym, I'm now working on a complete weight free regime from my experiences and incorporating more and more desi and chinese style exercises...but that's me!

Gur Fateh! Incidently, on the note of Charan da Amrit, this is also maintained with the Sikh Dharma (3HO) institutions, albeit not referenced as such. Take a look at the "Sikh Vows" provided by Yogi Bhajan (on SikhNet) for an understanding of the commitment it involvs (it is slightly different from the manner that Lalleshvari suggests for Sehajdharis, but this is the usual 3HO trademark!). Also to pick on the note re: Kirpan da Amrit, I received this Amrit when I was born and was witness to my youngest sister receiving hers. I'm not sure about the reasoning vis-a-vis eating from the same utensils as my mother is not Amritdhari although my Father is (and it no such restriction was specified to him by the Nanaksaria Sants who administered Amrit to him and his brothers/my uncles, although I note that most modern rehit specify elaborate dietary restrictions over and above avoiding Halal with regard to sharing food, utensils et al). SAT SRI AKALLLL!!!

Amrit Veerji, Thanks for your help, I find your suggestion below to be a great one and indeed something I would certainly welcome...please roll it on and let us share in learning (and praticing) more of our rich heritage! GUR BAR AKAAAALLLL!!! <<If the moderators and the members are ready, we can discuss all the topics (of 'Sri Hazoori Maryada Prabodh') one by one in this forum. By doing so, we will be making a difference. I think we need not to wait for its publication online. >>

Gur Fateh! I’m starting this thread for those members of the forum who participate in, or wish to participate in martial and physical training. Whilst acknowledging the variety of people on the forum (from students to professional to lecturers et al) all with their own particular challenges to finding time and energy to adequately engage a meaningful exercise programme, I would be grateful if we could share our personal thoughts and experiences in this format. To begin with I present below the weights-circuit routine I followed for a while after having spent a year doing split training with heavy use of drop sets, working out to failure and such like heavy routines 5-6 days a week and realising that this heavy bodybuilder style workout wasn’t going to work for me given time restrictions (City-working lifestyle), lack of sleep and my natural endomorphic frame. I settled for this weights circuit routine as it was more effective for my requirements vis-a-vis martial practice (the old routine described above would leave me worn out by the time I came to my martial classes and yoga sessions, hence discarding it). This can be done within 25 mins and doesn’t fatigue you into over training when combined with regular martial arts practice. The circuit aspect allows for a degree of cardiovascular training too, however cardio in addition to this is recommended. I’ve tried to keep weights down to a minimum, as the idea is really to develop functional strength for use in Martial Arts. PLEASE NOTE: That these exercises should be supplemented with regular cardiovascular activity (running, biking or swimming) and good 5-10 warm-up and stretching. I cannot stress the importance of this, as my eventual injury from this programme was caused simply by me skimping on these factors (owing to increased workloads reducing time) and not a fault of the programme per se. Please don’t make the same mistake! Some of the movements used are strenuous and I request anyone attempting to use this method seeks to ensure full warm up and stretching is adhered to, if you have lower back problems, I do not recommend you follow this without prior consultation with a doctor. Weights Circuit –all exercises to be performed in the order given (super setting antagonistic muscles against each other) one after another with no rest until end. Repeat process twice. [Entire Circuit to be only performed 3 times a week with a days rest in between] Superset 1: Upper Body -Bent Over Barbell Row (12x Palms Down Grip, 12x Palms Up Grip –If possible, one can replace these with Chin Ups) -Push Ups (Military Push Up x 25; Wide Push Up x 20; Narrow Push Up x 15; If you’re feeling adventurous, also try Desi Dands) Superset 2: Legs -Deadlift (with barbell) x 12 reps (These can be replaced by Hamstring Raises off a Chair or Swiss Ball) -Squat x 20 reps Superset 3: Arms -Barbell Curl x 10 reps -Tricep Dips x 20 reps Finish off with Ab – Work (Crunches, Leg Raises and Cobra stretches) Please offer any feedback you may have on the foregoing and feel free to ask any questions, but more importantly please add your own routines and experiences to this thread. Finally, as we already have plenty of other threads dealing with weapons and heritage and such like, I’d like to limit this to actual. Also, let’s not limit this to weights only, I have also used Yoga, Tai Chi and other moving meditation aspects to supplement my personal training and would welcome all related matters. Again I’d like to stress the key elements I’d like to have addressed on this thread:- (1) Exercise; weights, circuits, yoga, pilates, desi, chinese, aerobics et al... (2) nutrition; building up from a vegetarian diet? Balanced punjabi diet –does this exist today??? What ideas do you have for ensuring adequate protein, carbs, fat ratios in your diet? (3) rest/recovery; this is the most important and most neglected aspect of training and I am certainly guilty of it! It is also the most difficult in my experience to combine with a professional working life and an Amritdhari Sikh lifestyle with the already reduced sleeping hours (remember though, rest is not only sleep!)...please offer your input... Look forward to hearing from you all! GUR BAR AKAAAAALLLL!!!

Indeed! lol I raised the same point on another forum and was told the following:- veer jee.. its not hte actualy word waheguroo which is to be kept secret thats ridiculous, but the method of recitation. The gurmantar is given at amrit sanchars for a reason, even if the method isnt imparted. why is that reason? they have forgotten the method but still impart gurmantar, whats the point of that if everyone knows it. There is a point to it, just look deeper. The method is just as important as the word itself. I can say this for a fact from personal experience, beyond that I know nothing.

GUR FATEH! I would be grateful for the Cyber Sangat's view on the following points:- 1) Is the scene of Hemkunt described in the Natak, a reference to a physical place here on Earth (as testified by the Gurdwara location et al) or a symbolic reference to the Birth of the Guru (as purported by Dalip Singh in his analysis) or indeed is it a reference to another place, or plane even, altogether? 2) Who was Rishi Dhust Dhaman? I like the notion put forward by Dynamic Banda having read abuot aghoris in the past, however cannot comment fully upon its validity...it is interesting though as there are no references to him in any traditional Indian Scriptures (the only other reference I am aware of is in the Sarabloh Granth). So what exactly is his relation to Guru Gobind Singh explicitly (previous life or symbolic reference to birth and 9 months of life in the womb suspended upside down like an ascetic yogi?). 3) Following on from (2) above, what is the relation, if any, between Rishi Dhust Dhaman and the Devi and also between Guru Gobind Singh and his life and indeed that of his celibate consort, Mata Sahib Deva. Finally I am aware of a Meditative Exercise that Yogi Bhajan prescribes which was supposedly one used by Rishi Dhust Daman as if there are any members of the Sikh Dharma, 3HO or Kundalini Yoga (the Yogi Bhajan variety) practitioners present, please could you shed some light on this exercise and also the lineage of Yogis after Rishi Dhust Daman from where this practice has been maintained and passed to Yogi Bhajan and/or his Ustad Baba Virsa Das Udasi (aka Baba Virsa Singh). Please forgive any foolish comments in the foregoing, I look forward to hearing from you all soon... GUR BAR AKAAAL! -------------------- Dohraa Mahaa Kaal Kee Saran Jae Paray su lae bachae. Uor Na upjae doosar jag pachiyo sabhai banai.366

Gur Fateh! From my limited knowledge of such personalities, I am aware of various female students and teachers that are affiliated with the Nirmala Deras...in addition to this, we have traditional saints such as Mira Bai, whose writings appear in close connection with some Sikh Lore and historical writings (although not Gurbani per se) and also of individuals such as Mata Gulab Kaur, who Bhai Randhir Singh mentions in his autobiography as being quite a key influence in his early life. There is a Lady in the UK who has some form of following which could place her into a category of a Sant (given the treatment and position she holds in her Sangat) however that said, I can't comment further on this as I don't personally know her. I do recall seeing a book during my travels in the US titled "Female (or Women -not sure now) Saints of India"...it charted and delved into the matter quite extensively...however as I say I only saw it and didn't get too far into reading it... [by the way, does anyone know anything further about Mata Gulab Kaur, over and above that found in the Autobiography of Bhai Randhir Singh?]

Here here! Whilst making use of the mala and breath in addition to chanting, I have also done things similar to Mugermach Singh's suggestion...usually when I recite the Rakhia de Shabd and Kirtan Sohila -a little clean up and polish of the blades I have under my pillow!

Snigga Sahib! Gur Fateh! Thanks for your comments. It is not so much that I don't understand the use of the term Akali (both in the traditional Nihang sense and the misappropriate subsequent manner), however it is the use of the title for Guru Ji. One aspires to be an Akali, you have detailed a number of ways that this used to be/can be done in the Dal -fine, but this would naturally mean that as soon as one Khalsa Singh has progressed into becoming a Nihang Singh and then into an Akali Nihang Singh...he/she is now equal to "Akali Nihang" Guru Gobing Singh??? I find this hard to stomach personally, the Gurus were significantly higher than all of the Sikhs and will remain so... ..please correct me where I may be mistaken...

Gur Fateh! Naam Japna is one of the three basic qualities for the way of ‘Truthful Living’ laid by Guru Nanak Dev Ji (vis-a-vis Krt Karo, Vand ke Shako, Naam Jappo) and naturally forms the moral fibre of the Sikh Marg. Whilst Simran is not a specific technique as such, but rather a loving way of remembrance, that is to say sincerity of heart/mind/soul is the essence over the precise technique/posture/method adopted –although the latter will of course play a role in assisting the former and in my humble opinion is not something to be entirely ignored (contrary to what many say today). One method that has almost universally adopted across all spiritual traditions to assist in the practice of prayer and meditation is the use of rosaries/prayer beads/mala. On a mala, there are generally 108 beads, or some fraction of that number. The question often arises, “Why are there 108 beads?" I have presented below an article on the numerous reasons from spiritual/religious traditions of the world as to the possible reasoning behind this number in addition to those already provided by others on this forum. PLEASE NOTE: Astrological and Numerological aspects and those relating to Demi-Gods/Goddesses, Tantric Yantras and other such like rationale whilst NOT line with Sikh Thought per se, is provided here for the purposes of understanding/information only. From the view of understanding Gurmat, I would welcome some thoughts on the following issues that arise in the adoption of Mala for Naam Simran... 1. The basic aim of a mala is to ‘count’ the repetition of a mantra, in our case usually the Gur-Mantr or Mool-Mantr, although this can also expand to include others (but that is another discussion!) Is this not a limiting aspect, in so far as simran is concerned is should primarily develop and come into being out of one’s love/devotion for Waheguru? Lovers/Devotees do not keep account of their love/devotion inspired action afterall? This is the main thrust of those who strongly oppose the use of a mala (e.g. Radha Soamis) That said, I have found personally that using a mala to settle into/prepare for swas-gras simran or to aid when one is feeling tried can be useful. On the latter note, Bhai Randhir Singh speaks of the same matter in his autobiography prior to the mystic experiences he had in the lead up to the Gurpurb of Guru Gobind Singh. 2. Given the numerological/astrological roots of the significance of 108 beads (or some breakdown thereof –please refer to the second article at the bottom of this text for details of smaller derivatives of the 108-bead mala), how well does this practice relate to Gurmat? - In that it is similar to the Brahmanical and Tantrik practices of repeating a ritual a given number of times (11x, 31x, 108x...40 days, 90 days etc, as is common practice within 3HO) to bring about some desired result (whatever that may be)? A practice to manipulate certain energies or deities into fulfilling a certain goal or granting a boon rather that of the Gurmat, which is one of devotion, where essentially the highest desired goal is to have the gift of Naam Simran itself. - This said, I do recall some Sakhia relating to Guru Nanak Dev Ji using a mala of 101 or 102 beads, although I am uncertain as to the authenticity of this Sakhi (if anyone knows anymore, then please advise). However, working on the premise that this Sakhi has some truth behind it, presumably Guru Ji’s use of a 101/102 bead mala (whichever it was, the point being the break away from the 108 norm) was a indication that the number has no significance and the use of a mala is more a tool to aid the practice of Naam-Simran? Just an idea...nothing else! Please note, this is not suggesting that something is right or wrong, but simply asking for the sharing personal experiences for guidance and advice–that is to say, here, how useful has using a Mala been in establishing one’s own practice of Naam Simran. One of the reasons I ask is that Gurbani is consistently referring to Naam Simran, although it never prescribes a particular method or technique, in line with the Personal/Mystic relationship that each individual has with Guru Maharaja and Waheguru. One unfortunate problem that arises out of this however is that it also gives the scores of pseudo-Sikh Sants, Jathas, Ashrams and Organisations a breeding ground to preach their own “one and only†true version of “authentic†Naam Simran. The end result, the one thing that should ultimately bring humanity together (love for a one true God) is yet again used to create splinters in the Panth and outside of it... I do appreciate that Naam Simran is by its very nature a personal matter that not everyone may wish to share higher experiences of, although I am merely requesting guidance from the Sadh Sangat more than anything else. Please forgive any errors on my part or any material that may be offensive. Sat Sri Akaaaal! NOTE REFERRED TO: -------------------------------- Below are some of the many reasons which have been given, as well as a few other points of interest. None of these reasons are being promoted here as more or less true than the others. However, you may notice that 108 appears to be somewhat like a road map of reality in general, and the human in particular. Regardless of the meaning of 108, it is important that if a mala is used to count mantras, the mantra be remembered with sincerity, devotion, feeling, and full attention. Sanskrit alphabet: There are 54 letters in the Sanskrit alphabet. Each has masculine and feminine, shiva and shakti. 54 times 2 is 108. Pranayama: If one is able to be so calm in meditation as to have only 108 breaths in a day, enlightenment will come. Upanishads: Some say there are 108 Upanishads, texts of the wisdom of the ancient sages. Sri Yantra: On the Sri Yantra there are marmas where three lines intersect, and there are 54 such intersections. Each intersections has masculine and feminine, shiva and shakti qualities. 54 times 2 equals 108. Thus, there are 108 points that define the Sri Yantra as well as the human body. 9 times 12: Both of these numbers have been said to have spiritual significance in many traditions. 9 times 12 is 108. Also, 1 plus 8 equals 9. That 9 times 12 equals 108. Powers of 1, 2, and 3 in math: 1 to 1st power=1; 2 to 2nd power=4 (2x2); 3 to 3rd power=27 (3x3x3). 1x4x27=108 Desires: There are said to be 108 earthly desires in mortals. Lies: There are said to be 108 lies that humans tell. Delusions: There are said to be 108 human delusions or forms of ignorance. Heart Chakra: The chakras are the intersections of energy lines, and there are said to be a total of 108 energy lines converging to form the heart chakra. One of them, sushumna leads to the crown chakra, and is said to be the path to Self-realization. Marmas: Marmas or marmastanas are like energy intersections called chakras, except have fewer energy lines converging to form them. There are said to be 108 marmas in the subtle body. Time: Some say there are 108 feelings, with 36 related to the past, 36 related to the present, and 36 related to the future. 8 extra beads: In doing a practice of counting the number of repetitions of the mala, 100 are counted as completed. The remaining are said to cover errors or omissions. The 8 are also said to be an offering to God and Guru. Chemistry: Interestingly, there are about 115 elements known on the periodic table of the elements. Most of those, around or higher than the number 100 only exist in the laboratory, and some for only thousandths of a second. The number that naturally exist on Earth is around 100. Astrology: There are 12 constellations, and 9 arc segments called namshas or chandrakalas. 9 times 12 equals 108. Chandra is moon, and kalas are the divisions within a whole. Planets and Houses: In astrology, there are 12 houses and 9 planets. 12 times 9 equals 108. Goddess names: There are said to be 108 Indian goddess names. Gopis of Krishna: In the Krishna tradition, there were said to be 108 gopis or maid servants of Krishna. 1, 0, and 8: Some say that 1 stands for God or higher Truth, 0 stands for emptiness or completeness in spiritual practice, and 8 stands for infinity or eternity. Sun and Earth: The diameter of the sun is 108 times the diameter of the Earth. Numerical scale: The 1 of 108, and the 8 of 108, when added together equals 9, which is the number of the numerical scale, i.e. 1, 2, 3 ... 10, etc., where 0 is not a number. Meditations: Some say there are 108 styles of meditation. Paths to God: Some suggest that there are 108 paths to God. Smaller divisions: The number 108 is divided, such as in half, third, quarter, or twelfth, so that some malas have 54, 36, 27, or 9 beads. Hinduism: 108 is said to refer to the number of Hindu deities. Some say that each of the deities has 108 names. Islam: The number 108 is used in Islam to refer to God. Jain: In the Jain religion, 108 are the combined virtues of five categories of holy ones, including 12, 8, 36, 25, and 27 virtues respectively. Sikh: The Sikh tradition has a mala of 108 knots tied in a string of wool, rather than beads. Chinese: The Chinese Buddhists and Taoists use a 108 bead mala, which is called su-chu, and has three dividing beads, so the mala is divided into three parts of 36 each. Stages of the soul: Said that Atman, the human soul or center goes through 108 stages on the journey. Meru: This is a larger bead, not part of the 108. It is not tied in the sequence of the other beads. It is the quiding bead, the one that marks the beginning and end of the mala. Dance: There are 108 forms of dance in the Indian traditions. Praiseworthy souls: There are 108 qualities of praiseworthy souls. Mala Sizes and Designs --------------------------- The traditional number of mala beads is 108 in the Buddhist, Hindu and yoga traditions. (For instance, the Hare Krishna movement suggests that devotees repeat their mantra 16x108 times daily.) However, many prefer a smaller mala which is easier to use and carry. For that reason, most of my malas are a fractional number of beads and can be work around the wrist or neck, or carried in a pocket. Here are the standard sizes for malas: 9 beads (12 repetitions equal one complete round). 12 beads (9 repetitions equal one complete round). 18 beads (6 repetitions equal one complete round). 27 beads (4 repetitions equal one complete round). 36 beads (3 repetitions equal one complete round). 54 beads (2 repetitions equal one complete round). 108 beads (1 repetition equals one complete round).

Gur Fateh Shasterkovich! (Nice name!) Thanks for your reply...I like it! :wink: :shock: :twisted:

Gur Fateh! This entire thread shows why we face the problems we do today as a Panth, why we lack unity, why our men are hot-heads and misogynists and our women fed up…come guys, is it really that important that it warrants this much of a fuss??? Sardar Khalsa Soulja UK wale Jeeo, as you are so well versed in this topic and since many agree with your proposal and as I am the Maha-Fool, I will take your advice, yes, jewellery is wrong because, even if you can control yourself, as you say there is “something called the unconscious mind†that can lead to all sorts of bad things happen and secondly keski is a must, as one “should be simple†amongst other factors you cite. I would like to take on these two main points, (1) unconscious mind and (2) ,one should be simple, as this often the thrust of most Gurdwara lectures, kathas and parcharaks not to mention those found on websites and in articles… In accordance with this, I propose the following brief time line for today’s Sikh:- Birth – 5 years:- Mother to take child to Gurdwara at every moment, no toys to be ever given to the child, as this will affect the child’s ‘unconscious mind’ and lead to bad things, even if done in moderation, since the mind is weak, especially at this age. Child not to be cuddled too much, otherwise will get used to ‘affection’ which may lead later to ‘kaam’ through the ‘unconscious mind’… 5 – 16 years:- Child to be taught more path progressively, but to learn as much as possible as soon as possible and to live an amritdhari lifestyle in rehit. Combined with this, in accordance with the 2 wise thoughs above, please note the following guidelines:- -Child to attend single sex school only (you can never trust the development of kaam through the ‘unconscious mind’) -Child not to be encouraged to study hard, as this may lead to more kaam through the desire to learn more and study more, which could lead to ‘hankar’ from the knowledge gained and then lead to ‘moh’ as one gets attached to the acquisition of knowledge…besides, learning may lead to sophistication, and this can’t be right, as it’s not ‘simple’ enough… -Child to leave school at 16, as that’s enough education, remember, one has to be ‘simple’ and aware of the ‘unconscious mind’ as per the point above regarding education and knowledge… -At 16 to acquire a ‘simple’ job with minimal wages, just enough to survive, as what’s the need for more??? Right…because we must be ‘simple’ and besides, we don’t want to develop any ‘hankar’ or ‘kaam’ or ‘moh’ through allowing the ‘unconscious mind’ succumb to possibility of wanting promotion or anything…so remember ‘stay simple’ -don’t buy a house, or a car…walk where possible, if needs be use public transport and rent accommodation, otherwise the ‘unconscious mind’ may start getting yet more ideas…and that’s sooooo bad…. -girls, do not wear a bra, as it is not "natural" or 'simple', remember you must wear layer upon layer of clothing, as men have weak 'unconscious minds' and it is all your fault if one so much as looks at you... 16 + …I think you get the idea… oh, and also, please note… -only eat very simple food; water to drink (plain), dhal and roti, with no spices, no salt and no pepper…otherwise, the ‘unconscious mind’ may tempt us to eat ‘nice’ food…and that’s a no no, because it’s not ‘simple’…so, in short… …do the bear minimum in everything, expect your simran and paath, don’t bother learning good kirtan even, especially not on any decent instrument (stick with Vaja and Dholki…oh no, but the Dholki contains leather heads!!! What to do???!!!)… ...so, no good raag-kirtan, as again it’s not ‘simple’ and it may plague your ‘unconscious mind’ to get all sorts of vices as you become a good musician and keertania…so generally live like a monk, even though your married, and avoid any sort of contact even with your husband/wife, as your ‘unconscious mind’ again may cause all sorts of nasty things to happen…unless of course you want children, but remember, no hanky-panky….keep it simple and get it over and done with quickly, in and out like a flash, for otherwise it wouln’t be ‘simple’ and the good old ‘unconscious mind’ may get a little too many ideas!!! …the sad thing is, whilst much of the foregoing is written tongue in cheek, I’ve seen this type of behaviour exhibited by many of today’s “Tyar par tyar, Chardi Kala, Gursikhsâ€â€¦

Gur Fateh! Nihalo Jeeo, I concur with your sentiments, it is indeed disgraceful how much of this actually goes on! It makes me SICK!!! I apologise if the following comments offend anyone, but I wish to make my voice heard on this matter:- Punjabi culture has clear aspects which are misogynist attributes which can be found today from the ‘unpar’ (uneducated) Jatt peasants through to the highly educated City dwellers…in and out side of India…from Punjabi to so-called practising Amritdhari Sikhs… This type of treatment of females enrages me to say the least, I have seen so many examples in the UK and US of effectively ‘importing’ girls from India –excuse the harsh term, but in the cold light of day, that’s exactly what is being done –importing the family tea-maker, elder-carer and so on…there’s no feeling of respect for the women or girl, she is simply a commodity in these peoples eyes…also to blame are the idiotic parents in India who happily ‘sell’ the girls abroad in the vain hope that they may gain access to the UK or US through this connection… I would urge everyone to have a look at the news article below charting the events of one Sukhwinder Singh Dhillon…a man most evil and perverse…I know this is long and twisted, but it’s well worth the read… Sat Sri AKAAAAAL!! Also see my comments under http://www.sikhawareness.com/sikhawareness...der=asc&start=0 Note referred to: http://www.tribuneindia.com/2003/20031113/edit.htm (taken from www.thespec.com) He killed and killed for a big cheque A community newspaper recounts a serial killer’s exploits by A.J. Philip From left: Sukhwinder, Sarbjit, Khushpreet and Parvesh. Below: The Sukhwinder story on the cover of The Hamilton Spectator A NEWSPAPER is often compared to a battleship in action. Everything in the making of a newspaper is done in a hurry. Hence journalism is defined as literature in hurry. In the perpetual search for new stories, little effort is made to dig deeper into a story to unravel the whole truth. Few newspapers have either the resources or the inclination to investigate as complicated a story as a serial killing and come up with a complete account, however shocking it may be. An exception to this rule is The Hamilton Spectator, a community newspaper published from Hamilton, an industrial town near Toronto in Canada. What occasioned the unusual response from this 157-year-old newspaper are the wicked deeds of a hardy native from Punjab, whose greed, bigamy, perjury and anger led to a series of killings in Punjab and Canada. It took more than a year for reporter John Wells and photographer Scott Gardner to put together the gripping story. That included a trip to Punjab last year. The series they developed represents the largest single investment of journalistic resources in The Hamilton Spectator's history. It is written in the style of a novel, but all of the detail, context, and dialogue presented, while employing the devices of fiction, are entirely based on reportage. That is the strength of Poison: A True Crime Story brought out by the newspaper in an unusual book format. The story began with the arrival in Hamilton of Sukhwinder Singh Dhillon and his mother Gobind Kaur Dhillon from Ludhiana in 1981. His elder brother Sukhbir Singh Dhillon, who had dug gold in Hamilton, sponsored their visit. Sukhwinder and his mother did not reach there as economic refugees, seeking food and shelter. They were not like the boat people from Vietnam washed ashore gasping for a breath of freedom. The Dhillons were relatively rich. They owned a 12-acre parcel of farmland and about 40 head of cattle. Canada, for Sukhwinder and his mother, offered not a glimmer of hope, but gold at the end of the rainbow, a promised land not of mere survival, but of riches. Soon, Dhillon earned the reputation of a clown. It started with the fact that he was obviously uneducated. He spoke even Punjabi in broken sentences. However, the tell-tale sign was his English. Dhillon spoke no English, at first. He picked it up later, not from the classroom like the others, but from the street, friends, television. When he spoke English, it was gibberish, the words strung together incorrectly and quickly repeated over and over. "He painted his life in India as a tableau of sensational adventure and feats of strength. Listeners could not tell if Dhillon was joking or delusional or was really the tough guy he described." Two years later, he returned to Ludhiana to meet a young woman his parents had arranged for him to marry. They had lived in the same part of the town, but their paths had never crossed. Her name was Parvesh Kaur Grewal. He brought her to Hamilton. Parvesh was beautiful, spoke good English and soon found a job. In due course, two daughters were born to them — Aman and Harpreet. To the outside world, they provided the image of a perfect family. But in the two-storyed house on Berkindale Drive, the couple often quarrelled. Parvesh had got used to being physically assaulted until one day she called the police. He was released on bail. "It cost just $300" he boasted. Sukhwinder stopped making an honest living in 1991 when he told his boss a lie that he fell off a moving trolley and hurt his back and head." He began getting accident insurance money. He supplemented his income by dealing in used cars. He developed expertise in cheating insurance companies. Life was comfortable for him but Sukhwinder wanted more and more money. And he had got tired of his wife. On February 3, 1995, Parvesh died in hospital after Dhillon had poisoned her but no one suspected foul play. Within a few week of Parvesh's death, Sukhinder arrived in Ludhiana looking for a bride. Marrying a Canadian citizen like Dhillon was the dream of many Punjabis. Sarabjit Kaur Brar from Panj Grain did not have much say when her parents found in Sukhwinder the passport to a better life for the whole clan. But she knew what kind of man the NRI was when on the first night, he impatiently asked her to disrobe: "Kaprey laah dey". He was not satisfied with her, either. The schemer had found another victim in Khushwinderpreet Kaur Toor from Tibba, whom he wedded within a few days of his marriage with Sarabjit. He returned to Hamilton with the dowry he collected from the two families. There Parvesh's insurance money - a cool $200000 — awaited him. Life could not have been better for him. Meanwhile, in India, his second wife was pregnant. But he was not happy. "Children would identify him to everyone as her husband, something he could not allow." He had specifically asked Sarabjit not to name them. Yet, she named them — Gurmeet and Gurwinder. This infuriated Sukhwinder. On his next visit to India, he got the opportunity. "Sarabjit joined the mother in the kitchen to make tea. Dhillon was alone with the babies." He poisoned them. They died on consecutive days. A month later his third wife Khushpreet died. Her final words were that he gave her a pill. Within a month, he married yet again, this time to Sukhwinder Kaur Grewal, his fourth wife. Around this time, in Hamilton, he gave a pill to his friend Ranjit Khela to make up for his sexual inadequacy. Khela's wife saw him dying of convulsion. Little did she know that he had conned Ranjit Khela to name him as the beneficiary of his insurance policy. When the insurance official found that Sukhwinder, who was expecting a windfall from Khela's death, was the same person who had got a similar insurance amount earlier, he alerted the police. Investigations found that in all these murders he had poisoned them with Strychnine, a crystalline powder, colourless, odourless and extremely bitter. Classic Agatha Christie, Sherlock Holmes stuff. Painstaking efforts by the police, who sent two detectives to Punjab, saw him behind the bars, guilty of poisoning both his first wife and his friend. Lost in the tangle of witnesses and evidence was another bombshell — that Dhillon might have also poisoned his eldest brother, Darshan, in which case he killed six, four in Punjab and two in Canada. For the Hamilton police, it was one of the most complicated cases and for The Hamilton Spectator, the toughest to put together. After all, the story had too many plots, too many characters and too many locales to give it a cogent shape. Journalism has become richer by Poison: A True Crime Story.

ERNST TRUMP!!! :evil: :evil: Leave that man out of this!!! His works are disgraceful! I recommend reading them though as they give a good insight into what was happening at the time with the Sikhs and the depths to which they fell in allowing such a person commence on this work.

Gur Fateh! Well well well, it's our local mini-gangsta-siki-rapper-to-be Sardar Bahadur Khalsa Soulja coming straight outta da ghetto again! :roll: Mr Soulja, please could you or any of the knowledgeable Gursikhs that you speak of, please direct me to the 'pornographic' book from where the raagmala is taken, which I assume is written by the legendary poet Alam... Thanking you in advance... GUR BAR AKAAALLL!

Bhai Sahib, you can see it in action here:- http://www.shastarvidiya.org/video/29.html

Bhai Mugermach Singh Sahib, tusi vi naa, hut de nahi! Bhai Sahib ms514 Jeeo, please could you let me in on the joke, sorry but I guess I'm simply stupid! :stupid: :stupid: :stupid: :stupid: :stupid:

That's right! For lacto-vegetarians who do not eat meat, fish or eggs...i.e. anything that is alive or has potential to be alive... For the record, I have no probs with non-vegetarians, ovo-lacto-vegetarians, vegans or whatever...but I always found meat-eaters to be non-accepting of my lacto-vegetarian diet, even though I have never imposed it upon anyone... ...for some reason, Punjabi and Indian Meat-eaters feel threatened by vegetarians and those who refrain from drinking alcohol, as if I'm going to give them a lecture or something...if anything...they seem to think that they need to lecture me on food habits... ...people (veggies and non-veggies) enjoy your food and get on with whatever you do! Thanks for the recipe, keep them coming!

Gur Fateh! Bhai Sahib, I admit I'm not the sharpest tool in the box... I really don't get your post...please could you explain? Thanks.