Niranjana

Khalsa Soulja, Nice to hear from you again, I echo your closing comments "im not against women taking amrit or being called kaur, but ive never really seen any puratan accounts" Any ideas from the forum?

Anyone else got any ideas on this? Why is a daughters property (house, goods, items etc) to be regarded as poison? Or does 'property' refer to something else here? Please advise...

Gur Fateh! An interesting point I find on 3HO is the sometimes strong links they retain with more mainstream Sikhs often through the AKJ sangats (particularly since the advent of Gatka-Khell since the times of Bhai Fauja Singh and Livtar Singh Khalsa continued now in the Miri-Piri Academy) yet at other times 3HO is essentially a 'closed-shop' (say through their International Peace Prayer Day and other exclusive events). In many ways I do find 3HO to be at a stage where say ISKCON was some 10-20 years ago and often I wonder what lies ahead when Yogi Harbhajan Singh (aka Yogi Bhajan) does pass away... ...any thoughts from the Forum? Are we likely to see closer integration between 3HO and mainstream Sikhs in their alignment with the AKJ (through Kirtan Samagams) and the SGPC (Sikhnet have recently altered their Sikh Dharma Manual to be more in line with the SGPC maryada) or will we see a general division within the community as it breaks into smaller cliques? If the former, can we expect to see more Kundalini Yoga ("as taught by YB") featuring in mainstream Sikh communities (as we already see in the UK BOSS lectures with the likes of Karam Kriya) and the Miri Piri Academy spreading 3HO style Sikhi in Punjab...which naturally would bring with it the other aspects of 3HO numerological, mantras and new age thoughts...which again are beginning to feature in the BOSS lectures... ...or in the former, can we expect yet more Sikh sects developing from 3HO and ties being cut from the other sangats should 3HO puritanical attitudes become more manifest ("our women are more involved"..."YB said that 40 Pauris of the Anand Sahib or only 5...etc etc). Be interested to hear the Cyber Sangat's views on this matter and indeed if we have any 3HO members on the Forum, please do offer your thoughts on the foregoing, as I hope it is clear that this is not to revoke or provoke any negatively or accusation, but simply to increase understanding of some areas and matters... GUR BAR AAAAKAAAAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLL!

Gur Fateh! As Harjinder Ji states in the closing comments, "The Sikhs were living a very good life at that time in villages and cities. They were not living in forests. The Guru was living at Anandpur Sahib and was accepted as a true king" -the key lies here:- Only a civilised and cultured person can really be thought to have the necessary means to groom themselves. Cutting one's hair actually would be more akin to a wild/forest lifetstyle as we see amongst Monks and the Army today (i.e. keep it so short so you don't have to bother with it...even though that may present other issues...). If one is civilised person living in a home, naturally one would groom themselves every morning and hence, keeping unshorn hair is part of the householder values that the Sikh encapsulates in addition to its hinting role at the part Sadhu/Rishi/Sant appearence. Hair is also associated with life, vitality, creativity and sex, hence clearly keeping one's hair indicates the intention to remain in life, in reality and not run away from it or repress it. The fashion of shaving and trimming one's hair short is often traced back to Alexander the Great, who wished to maintain his 'youthful' look -Sardar Kapur Singh has written extensively on this topic in Parasaraprashna, which I would recommend that folks pick up this for a fair read. As per the Kingly element, it is well known that in the Moghul Darbar, those bestowed with the honour of wearing turbans and hair/beards were the accepted elite -hence it's adoption in the "True" Darbar of Guru Maharaj (amongst the other reasons for their upkeep)...the Sri Guru makes reference to this element in the Shabd "sarbut soora dastar sira" ...ultimately, one should really ask the question "why do others cut their hair" as opposed to "why do we NOT cut ours"... Forgive any errors in the foregoing, GUR BAR AKAAAAAL!

Who are 3HO? Gur Fateh! Whilst not wishing for this to turn into a controversial debate, I would be interested to know of the forum’s opinions, understanding and knowledge about all that is 3HO. This is a Jatha, Movement, Organisation however one may refer to it that at one time held considerable sway over some of my outlook both positively and negatively. Whilst I have never been part of 3HO, I do have some 2nd generation 3HO friends and have in the past been in contact with some UK based members of the organisation through the likes of the Karam Kriya Centre (see: http://www.karamkriya.co.uk/), although with regard to the latter, my net experiences were not entirely encouraging. There are many interesting, often questionable, notions associated with all that is 3HO, when one looks beyond the white robes, Khalsa- appearance and Kunadlini Yoga (“as taught by Yogi Bhajanâ€) and indeed Yogi Bhajan himself. As one with a practical and academic interest in Sikhi, Economics, Yoga, Meditation, Health, Fitness, Psychology, Business and ‘lifestyle’, 3HO and Yogi Bhajan certainly did present an interesting and welcome change to the offerings of the majority of more conventional Gyanis and committee members found in most Gurdwaras nowadays...until of course, one wises up and look deeper... This I certainly did and whilst having approached my few friends within the community (who to their credit, have always answered honestly to my querying mind), formal discussion has all too often been impossible with most forums not willing to entertain any discussion on this matter (Sikhnet clearly being the main one given it’s immediate links to 3HO) or if they do then all too often we find a entourage of emotional insults, which very often come from people with little understanding or experience of the organisation, yet because of it’s more visible differences see fit to cut it down...I’m hoping here, on Sikhawareness, where we do have many diverse members with considerable knowledge of authentic Sikh History and texts, a sensible and intelligent discussion on “All that is 3HO†can be held... Again, I am not beginning this thread to criticise the organisation or any individuals concerned, however I do feel that this is movement of which we need some better understanding given the close links they have with many Sangats and other Jathas across the Globe and Diaspora and yet the rather naive outlook many have upon them. Please forgive any foolish comments in the foregoing (or forthcoming), At the feet of the Sadh Sangat, GUR BAR AKAAAAAL. To begin with here are some points to consider (more to follow) *Mahan Tantric and White Tantra –myth or reality? *Adi Shakti and the Khanda *Shakti Women *Trinity and Triangle symbols (see 3HO symbology on Sikhnet and on the 3HO website and also check out Yogi Bhajan’s speeches on Trinity and the Sri Guru) *Relationship with other Jathas *Impact of Udasi Baba Virsa Das (Singh) *Waheguru Waheguru Waheguru Wahe Jio! *The effects of Jap ji Sahib Pauris as Mantras (see Sikhnet “Sikh Dharma manualâ€) *The effects of numerological analysis –occult or mysticism? *Post Yogi Bhajan -the Sri Singh Sahib is old and of failing health as many will know, what consequences can we expect to arise following his death for the 3HO community and their relationship with the Sikh diaspora?

Gur Fateh! This is an interesting topic, as I have yet to find/see/hear a comprehensive answer to the question "Who was the first Sikh 'Kaur', that is the first woman to have been given the surname Kaur?" According to most scholars, the use of the word Kaur became predominant in the 18th Century and certainly in terms of historical texts, it is only in Khan Singh Nabha's Mahan Kosh that we find references to even "Mai Bhag Kaur" (Mai Bhago), "Mata Sunder Kaur" (Mata Sundri)..etc... ...please correct the foregoing where I am mistaken in addition to offering your thoughts on where the usage of the surname 'Kaur' began...just interesting to note as it is nowadays a big part of the Khalsa Identity compared to the past... Forgive any foolish comments in the foregoing, GUR BAR AKAAAAAL!

Jathedar Ji!!! Gur Fateh and congratulations on your appointment! The SGPC maryada is essentially a pick and mix of selected historical texts and references as per the discussions that followed the meeting and conventions held during the 1920's and 1930's. Please see the following link: http://www.sgpc.net/sikhism/introduction.asp How valid it is can be determined by its acceptance in the Panth, which if we view in conjunction with the existence of other Rehit Maryadas (Taksal, AKJ, Nishkam Sevak Jatha and so on)...however, the view that 'All of the people can't be wrong' is not something I share... ...access to all puratan maryadas is not easily available and what is available is often misquoted and/or distorted...this is something we need to look into as there do appear to many holes within the existing maryadas given the opposition each of them face from opposing maryadas and from institution... ...of coure, this could simply be seen as Man-Matt and the impact of Kaliyug...but is Gurmat following the SGPC, Taksal, AKJ or whatever...or is Gurmat following the Sri Guru? Forgive any foolish comments in the foregoing, I would be interested to hear the forum's view on Lalleshvari's questions and on my closing comments... SAT SRI AKAAAL!

Back to the topic...so what WOULD happen if the Buddha Dal was in control again??? :?

Pradhan Sukh Singh Sahib, GUR FATEH!!! As far as I know there are no english translations available of the Sarab Loh Granth. The present Punjabi translation was done by an Udasi Baba, although some now claim that his works are incomplete. Sorry I can't help more...I'm still looking for a full copy myself...but to be honest, I've yet got so much to learn from the Sri Guru...

Gur Fateh to All, The Sri Sabloh Granth speaks of lineage a number of times, please consider the following: Guru Nanak, himself the Supreme, took avatara in the supreme auspicious lineage All the others he had sent before by command had all become entwined in their own philosophies (matta). Sri Sarab Loh Granth, 3, p. 489. Guru Gobind Singh has also spoken of the lineage of the Gurus explicitly in Bachitar Natak with regard to the Guru's SuryaBanshi heritage (I know this is a contentious issue with the twisted RSS propaganda that arises from it, if that needs discussing let's do it on another thread). What is the relevance of Bedi, Tehran, Sodhi and Balla lineage today? Any thoughts?

Gur Fateh! Bhai Sahib ms514 Ji, please consider the following extract from the Sri Sarab Loh Granth as per your comments on the 4 varnas and further to jtSingh's comments on the Samprayda... [Gobind Singh said,] ËœI gave myself to the Khalsa; my second form is the True Guru, the Granth. The utterance of the shabad and the singing or explication of Govinds Name is the True Guru's speech. The pure Khalsa Panth was manifested, an auspicious panth [comprising] all four varnas and ashramas. Seeing them is to have darshan of the True Guru, the shabad of the Guru Granth is the Guru's speech. Thus are enumerated the twelve forms of the True Guru, O sants, these are twelve manifest suns. The manifest power of Parbraham plays itself out in the Granth and the Khalsa Panth. Sri Sarab Loh Granth, 3, pp. 496-7.

Gur Fateh! Jai Ho J T Singh! Good to hear from you again... look forward to hearing more...just a few further questions, that I'd like to develop on coming from your post...again, it'll be great to hear the forum's views on these matters... <<Therefore, it could be argued that it is the essence of orthodoxy and authority.>> How important are the roles of Traditions, Orthodoxy and Authority for Sikhs today and on a wider level for anyone's spiritual lifestyle? <> Here is something I would totally agree with in principle (and as you do indicate whilst it is no guarantee), qualified learning is something severely lacking today in the Panth -we have uneducated Gyani's making their way across the globe through the Gurdwaras for some quick 'tax-free' earnings in GBP or USD etc, or we have pseudo scholars of two kinds, those who are educated professionals (Doctors, Laywers, Physicists) and suddenly feel that a PhD in Rocket Science qualifies them to authentic commentators on Gurbani and Gurmat or we have the classic Khalsa College PhD students who see fit to learn from the likes of McLeod and Macaufille as the ultimate accounts of Sikh Culture, History and Religion... Forgive any foolish comments in the foregoing... SAT SRI AKAAAL!

Gur Fateh! We find the following quote mentioned in the Sri Sarbloh Granth: The four lineages of the Gurus are good . . . . The Bedis, Trehans, Bhallas and Sodhis are the four Guru-lineages, the supreme lineages. The four lineages are have been saved Sri Sarab Loh Granth, 3, pp. 494-5. On this forum too there has been much talk in the way of 'parampara' and the resultant effect the lack of it in the majority of modern Sikh instituions has lead to a loss of heritage and intricate details and refinement. Any thoughts from the Sangat? GURBARAKAAAAAL!

Gur Fateh! Dear ms514 Bhai Sahib, I understand what you're saying and certainly my traditional view on the matter was that a Sikh embodied in one person all 4 aspects and castes as you have mentioned and still is...manu created the castes by separating the human into 4 (head for brahmin, arms for kyshatriya...feet for Shudra)...Khalsa is a complete human embodying all qualities... That said, look at the 4 qualities of Bir Ras and one can see that these are still manifest within Dharam, Daya, Dhan and Yudh...in a looser sense, Brahmin, Shudra, Vaishvyas and finally Kyshatria respectively... ...again, I do feel we are essentially 'singing from the same hymn sheet' here...please do keep providing more input as these are only my personal ideas and understanding and by no means scholarly or certain... SAT SRI AKAAAAL!

Gur Fateh Sukh Singh! I don't think it's so much about being right or wrong as it is practical. Now, I can see the progression from having a Dastaar covered with Chakrs and such like for protection (as well as attack)...evolving into the Turban Helmets that I saw in 1999, however I agree we need to look at the other material more practically. Is it disrespectful for a man working with welding to tie a keski or small dastaar upon which to place his helmet and visor for protection? Similarly, is it disrespectful to do the same with a Motorbike Helmet? I'm simply asking the question for rationale and practical suggestions that'a all... SAT SRI AKAAAL!

We are all familiar with the ruling on hats for a sikh vis-a-vis the dastaar. What I’d like to have the forum’s opinion is helmets. In the UK (and India I would presume) Sikhs are exempt from wearing crash helmets whilst riding a motorbike or wearing a hard hat whilst on a construction site. We are commonly informed about the Sikh soldiers who in the 1st and 2nd World Wars fought on the front line with only their turbans. To explain the above, we often have statements indicting that death is nothing to a Sikh, the Helmet indicates one is afraid of death, one shouldn’t have their tuban covered and so on. What I’d like everyone to consider is the following:- (1) In the 1999 V&A exhibition on the Sikh Kingdoms a series of ‘Turban Helmets’ from the Sikh Raj period were displayed. These were of intriguing design shaped such that a mound was formed to sit upon the ‘rishi-knot’ of hair (Joora) and worn on top of a keski or small dhumala type turban with chainmail strands around the sides to weigh the helmet down. Were these breaking from Maryada or Rehit? (2) If the Akali Nihang Singh Bana includes amongst other things, chakras, sheilds and body armour, is it so wrong to have a helmet to protect one’s head if it can be adapted to accommodate a dastar? (3) Is it really cowardice to wish to protect oneself through the use of armour (such as a Helmet) or simply practical common sense? (4) When I graduated from University, one of the jobs I did apply for prior to entering my present career was with the Army, one of the reasons I refused to proceed was the requirement should the need arise on the front line to wear a Helmet over one’s ‘Patka’ and for one to trim his beard to allow for a seal-tight fitting of a mask in the event of a biological attack (such as was done in the Gulf War for instance). [Note, this was only on the front line, not otherwise, if anyone is thinking of joining the army, you can wear your kakkars in full and train in your dastaar, so long as there are no live rounds being used] This did get me thinking though, what if this situation did arise (bio attack), what options do we have as full keshdharis if no suitable protective masks are available? Please forgive any foolish comments in the foregoing, GUR BAR AKAAAAAAAAL!!!

Sat Sri Akal! Bhai Sahib, thank you for your response, and I’m glad you raised this point as this is exactly that thought that ran through my mind when I first came across Guru Gobind Singh’s Shabd “Khshatriya ka poot ho, Bahmin kaa nahi...” [Krishna Avtar, Sri Dasam Granth Sahib] Historically speaking, yes Bhai Sahib the scenes you described are correct, however consider the above shabd and others like it and you’ll see why we are Khsatriyas. The incidents that you speak of are related to the Hindu Khshatriya caste who indeed did refuse to take Amrit from the same Bata on grounds of their superior caste –it is here that Maharaj speaks of creating a race of true Khshatriyas (warriors) based on deed and action rather than caste lineage, free from pseudo –brahmanical issues (hence the Shabd above). The Khalsa is the true Khshatriya (Warrior), combined of all the 4 varnas and unique, the Sant Sipai ideal is concurrent with this. Of late there has been much talk of Bir Ras, a term derived from ‘Veer Rasa’ forming one of many types of ‘rasa’ (essence, sweetness...) evident in Indian poetry. This is integral to the Khalsa as the true model of a Khshatriya when we look at the 4 qualities of (Veer) Bir Ras:- Dharam (Righteousness) Veer Daya (Compassionate) Veer Dhan (Charitable) Veer Yudh (Battle) Veer With the last (Yudh) being subservient to the first 3. It is the Khshatriya Marg that I refer to in my post, the Warrior Way or Warrior Path had we thread upon. I hope this helps and again, please forgive any foolish comments in the foregoing. I trust that all can appreciate that I am NOT claiming to right in my view, I simply present these as effectively this is where I am in my present understanding, as limited as it maybe, as such I welcome any feedback and corrections where necessary. BIR RAS DE NAAL (!), GUR BAR AKAAAAAAAAL!!!!

Also consider... Having pleased Bhagvati and Bhagvant, the True Guru destroyed the evil-doers, Those demons, revilers of the Lord and his sants, who were creating obstacles on the path of Hari. He destroyed in dharmayuddha the demons who reviled Brahmans and cows. Purifying varna and ashrama, he churned the essence and gave it as a mantra to the Khalsa. According to the command of Akal Purakh the form of the best of munis was manifested: Keeping long hair from head to toe, the best of men took on the form both of bhagats and of heroes. They received from the beginning the gift of chakravarti status, their righteous rule (dharamarÃ¥ja) devouring the highest of mountains. They received unshakeable sovereignty [of the earth] up to the ocean, from the rising of the sun to the point where it sets, and of heaven. The pure Khalsa Panth arose by the Lord’s command: Duality was effaced by these means and the unclean demons (asura malechhana) were destroyed. Sri Sarab Loh Granth, 3, pp. 495-96.

MAHA KAAL rak var hamaro! MAHA LOH mai kinker thaaro! (Chaupai, Krishan Avtar, Dasam Granth)

Gur Fateh! OK, please explain why a daughters property, as in the conventional sense, i.e. as per Sarbloh Soulja's post, should be regarded as poison??? I'm sorry but I can't seem to get my head around this one. Again, forgive my foolishness. Gur Bar Akaaal!

Gur Fateh, On this note, it maybe worthwhile taking up this issue with Yogi Bhajan and 3HO who recite the "Wahe Yantee, Kar Yantee..." Sloka supposedly from Patanjali's Push Puran involving the coming of Guru Nanak and the 3 faculties of VaheGurU as part of their daily Simran (or Sadhana as they would refer to it). Any thoughts -take a look at their music collection on Sikhnet for further details. GUR BAR AKAAAL!

Gur Fateh Sukh Singh, I had trouble reconciling my historical research in the Sikh Chronicles with this shabd too for quite sometime. Clearly the use of Maha Prashaad and Canabis (and in some instances wine) was freely made within the Panth and the Kurayt viewed to be the abuse of these items. Recently I have looked at this another way (if you have access to the article on Meat and Sikhi by Giani Sergill Ji, I recommend having a read for a balanced view on the subject):- Bhagat Kabir says that those who consume bhang (marijuana), fish (machhali is also a name given to a kind of drug), or alcohol, will lose the benefit of practising “Tirath Burt Nem” the holy rituals. However, Gurbani repeatedly says there is no benefit at all of “Tirath Burt Nem” like actions. In this hymn, the words, “Tirath Burt Nem” are used as a phrase (which does not mean these three specific things, that is, just these three rituals, i.e., visiting holy places, daily rituals, and fasting, but refer to all kinds of rituals. The meaning of the hymn, therefore could well be that one does not benefit at all by performing holy rituals or doing religious deeds, if one continues to lead a vicious life (sinful life). The message is that one must give up vices to benefit from religious practices. This hymn, thus, prohibits a vicious life, it does not say anything “for” or “against” eating meat. Now agreed for some, partaking in bhang and mahaprashad may equate to a vicious life, but this is a relative judgement dependent upon your situation. I for one, living and working in London, UK as a professional do not face the same physical challenges a front soldier would and can do without the need for bhang or mahaprashad, that said, should the need arise, then as I have stated elsewhere, I firmly believe that the Khalsa are Khshatyrias (Warriors) who can adapt to any situation and win... ...as Bruce Lee said..."no way is THE way" Forgive any foolishness on my part... GUR BAR AKAAAL!

GUR FATEH! Khalsa Soulja Ji, thanks for the response and kind sentiment. I note that Babu Teja Singh is not the one who started the Raag Mala issue, the point I wish to convey is not Babu Teja Singh, but the fact that one man, who as you say, was part of a 'respectable' institution, backed by the incumbent political power of the day...ended up publishing 200 page Granths for sale -total disrespect, dishonour and degrading prostitution of the values of our Guru Ji, our Shaheeds et al...all this arose from in amongst the Raag Mala denial. The point being, it's not as simple as we 'honestly' don't believe Raag Mala is Gurbani, but hey that's fine since we believe in the rest of it versus the likes of Kala Afghana being really bad since he doubts a whole lot more... 'faith' in the Sri Guru means total faith in Guru Ji ...Doubt is doubt, whether small or big... Nihang Gargaj Singh was correct for reprimanding me on the matter of mentioning names, as this often does lead to finger pointing and labelling, which is not my intention here. As previously stated, I used the examples of Babu Teja Singh and Kala Afghana simply by way of example as these are two key issues here. Again, I ask forgiveness for any foolishness on my part and as ever remain the charandhoor of the Sadh Sangat... GUR BAR AKAAAAL!!!

Gur Fateh! Whilst our Maryada as Sikhs does not entertain the need for such observances, I do feel it important to retain some respect for another's belief and not slate it as 'BS'. There are reasons for the fasting or refraining of eating meat on the days you mentioned for those groups and whilst the gain from such activities is simply tempory and materialistic, hence discouraged under Gurmat so too is the slander of another's practice and belief. This is a great site, as I have often mentioned to moderators privately -in fact one of the few forums left today which allows open, frank and full discussion, let's respect this freedom appropriately. Please do not view this as a comment addressed to any one particular individual, there have been many posts of late using such terminology against groups, people et al...healthy discussion, even argument is fantastic, let's not deteriorate from that. Humbly at the feet of the Sangat -please forgive any fololishness on my part, GUR BAR AKAAAL!

Gur Fateh! Gargaj Singh Ji, I agree with your outlook...I do not intend to begin a name and shame campaign (in any event I'd place myself top of the list for the countless fallacies I commit on a daily basis), however the mention of Kala Afghana and others was and is simply used to indicate the height of the matter today...in terms of the impact this has had on the Panth in essentially what has only a short period of time... I am not intending to argue about sides here, however there is clearly more than meets the eye with this whole affair and level to which this has gone is worth mentioning to understand why it is necessary for us collectively to remain vigilant about such matters and not simply leave matters to the so called "5 High Priests" of the Akal Thakt... As per the responses to Lalleshwari's comments regarding the denial of the Raag Mala, without getting involved with any particular Jathibandee (again, as Khalsa Soulja earlier pointed out, this issue is not limited to just one group), the key flux of Lalleshwari's comments, insofar as my 'personal' understanding, really goes back to the matters arising with Babu Teja Singh Bhasauria, who with the backing of the incumbant rulers amongst other things reduced the Sri Guru down to 200 or so pages. This scenario has continued to prevail with the numerous other Babas we have seen over the past 50 years across Punjab and the Diaspora... For me, ***This is the issue*** Regardless of motives, denial or removal of the any part of the Sri Guru is simply Manmat and equivalent to silencing the tongue of the Sri Guru:- jae ko gur thae vaemukh hovai bin sathigur mukath n paavai || One who turns away from the Guru, and becomes baymukh - without the True Guru, and shall not find liberation. [Anand Sahib, Guru Amar Das Ji] Whilst the Panth has been active in responding to such matters in the past, the length of time taken to resolve the recent Kala Afghana affair cannot be overlooked. The ban on discussing the Dasam Granth has now been in force for 3 years with next to nothing in the way of any progress statements from the Akal Thakt. We can ban tables and chairs in Gurdwaras, cover up historical murals with green bathroom tiles, add more Gold to the Harimandir Sahib, have a chappati-making machines installed in the Langar...even provide our '5 High Priests' with luxury cars, but have yet to reinstate our faith in Bani. Issues such as the denial of Raag Mala, Bhagat Bani, Dasam Granth and the abuse of power by the modern day 'mahants' is what leads to this state and if allowed to continue, the possbility of the 200 page Granth Sahib will arise again. With all this said and done, I again conclude that 'we' look to our common goals and expand upon them and essentially agree to disagree elsewhere provided we follow the basic hukam of our Gurus...easier said than done I agree...but nothing is too much for Akal Purakh Ki Faaj...so let's quit worrying about the RSS, VHP or other supposed threats, agreed they exist, but let's be honest Khalsa is here to stay FOREVER and in addition to defending the Panth, it's equally crucial that we have a united panth [note 'united', not identical, we are not clones!] Please forgive any foolish comments in the foregoing, GUR BAR AKAAAL!