Niranjana

Gur Fateh! Nihang Gargaj Singh Ji, I quite agree, the main point here is, in a time where the likes of Kala Afghana are refuting our scriptural and spiritual heritage and others in the last 50 years have tried everything from denying Raag Mala down to cutting out Bhagat Bani...it is indeed a great deed that the Dasam Granth has been brought forward with such zeal. In time I do hope that all the necessary proofs et al get sorted and the through the invoking of Maharaj's Kirpa all 4 types of Bir Ras be bestowed throughout the Panth once more. Gaj ke Fateh Gajave, 96 crore Khalsa...Buddha Dal, Tarna Dal...Munn noo pave, nihal ho jave...SAT SRI AKAAAL!!! GUR BAR AKAAAL!

Gur Fateh! Whilst bringing out the Dasam Granth to the masses, it is a shame that the proof reading has been lacking if indeed there are errors in the presentation. Insofar as Gobind Sadan is concerned, I cannot comment as I have never been there, although certain activities do look to be rather inclusive as per the self-sufficient farming community it has developed, but there's no real harm in this...the Hari Krishnas are another example of this type of set up... ...Baba Virsa Ji, is supposedly an Jati-Dhari Udasi (hence the huge Dastaar -Big Dreads!), I have heard many saying that Yogi Bhajan received training under him hence the yoga influence on 3HO and the gold statue of Baba Sri Chand Ji outside their Gurdwara (Maha Akal Mandir) in New Mexico... ...I guess what people do find strange about Baba Virsa are the activities that would push him into the so-called Sanatan World (Havans, mixed Sangat, associations with numerous holy men/women et al) in contrast to the more defined Tat-Khalsa way...anyway this is another matter... Please forgive any foolish comments on my part, Gur Bar Akaaal!

Gur Fateh! GarGaj Singh does have a point here insofar as following the principles laid out by Guru Sahib with respect to the Ram Rae, Dhirmalias and Mahants. Those who change, alter or deny Bani or any component thereof or those who abuse the positions of power trusted to them must be view in the same light. NOTE: I am not intending to discredit any Jathabandi here, however the issue of Raagmala (which as Khalsa Soulja indicates is not just limited to one particular group), the denial of Bani in the Dasam Granth in the manner put forth by Kala Afghana and IOSS, the sheer abuse and misappropriation of polity and power are matters that are unnecessarily weaken the Panth. <<those who do not believe in rag malla, dasam granth or sarbloh granth do it because they honestly believe it is not gurbani, for whatever reason, they do not do it to gain power, or openly proclaim it is not gurbani when internally they know it is>> Khalsa Ji, I hear what your trying to say, however let's be honest, the denial of Raag Mala for instance, is a tool by which to differentiate oneself from the Sikhs of the Guru, for better or worse, dependent upon your stance on the matter. Now, agreed some deny the Raag Mala since it is the way they are taught given their affiliation with certain Sangat, however it cannot be denied that the likes of Babu Teja Singh Bhasauria did in fact deny and delete Raag Mala (and Bhagat Bani et al) for nothing more than the acquisition of power. There have been many like him of late who have sought to modify the Sri Guru for their personal selfish gains -in MOST instances, these individuals and groups have been ousted from the Panth. This is something we need to remain vigilant about given the sanctity of Guru Maharaj and also the resultant divisions such matters have on the Panth, which I may add is already in weakened state given the numerous Jathas, Babas, Akharas et al we find challenging and fighting amongst each other…the way of Guru Nanak and Guru Gobind Singh was always to seek common ground and build upon that; “Manas Ki Jaat sabey eko pachaan bo†–Gurdev Pita, Guru Gobind Singh (Dasam Granth) Unfortunately today we are too content to argue about non-issues and the superiority of one Baba, Committee, Jatha or Politician over the next, that the following words of the Sri Guru come to mind:- houmai maeraa jaath hai ath krodhh abhimaan || Ego, self-centeredness, excessive anger and pride are the lot of mankind. Guru Amar Daas Ji Raag Aasaa 429 This is truly a shame when we consider Maharaj also teaches us that:- sabhanaa dhaathaa eaek thoo maanas dhaath n hoe || You alone are the Great Giver; mankind cannot give anything. Guru Nanak Dev Ji Raag Sorath 595 Not to believe in Gurbani and to regard oneself as a Sikh is a misnomer. <> Agreed, large amounts of the Panth ‘DID’ reject Raag Mala and the Dasam Granth… ‘DID’ being the operative word. As per the ‘kiddies’ of the Ram Rae and Mahants et al, to my knowledge, we are instructed as per the Rahit Maryada to refrain from social intercourse et al with the aforementioned groups until such time as they accept Gurmat Maryada and Khanda-da-Paul Amrit and certainly the 5 Pyare during my Amrit Sanchar informed as such. The Sau Sakhi is another issue, we are concerned here with Guru Maharaj and parties hostile to ‘our’ Guru Ji cannot be considered as comrades let alone part of the Panth. I ask forgiveness for any foolish comments made on my part… GUR BAR AKAAAL!

Gur Fateh Narsingha! I quite agree with the sentiments you allude to, in that Nitnem is not intended to be a ritual confined to the supposed ambrosial hours of the early morning, but a state of being throughout the day. That said, this is not the matter at hand, I am interested (as are other members of the forum, to a greater or lesser extent) in how the various daily liturgies came into being -NOTE, again, I am not seeking to find a RIGHT or WRONG version as I don't believe one size fits all (as indeed the SGPC seem to want to establish)... ...it is simply interesting to understand the linkages of these changes and variations with our Heritage and History, not to mention the various groups we now have across the Sikh diaspora... Trust you understand where I'm coming from... GUR BAR AKAAAL!

Gur Fateh to All! Great artcles thus far, however I'd like to share the following with you written by Dalip Singh, who has done much in the way of Dasam Granth analysis to answer the doubts of the IOSS and Kala Afghana. (All references are posted at the end of the article). I'm not claiming this work to be coinciding with my personal opinion but rather post it here for your information, after all, we need to have all available information from all sides from which to draw our conclusions...I'd be grateful for any feedback on this inl ight of the foregoing posts. Please forgive me for any foolish comments on my part... GUR BAR AKAAAAAL!!! Hem Kunt We are unable to reprint G.S.Kala Afghana's objections on this web site due to the recent ban on publishing his works, our reply is below: There are first five verses in Chapter 6 of Bichitar Natak, to be discussed below, which are of metaphorical and symbolic nature, and cannot be translated casually and literally. In these five verses, Guru Gobind Singh Jee has referred to the lengthy tale of King Pandu’s last part of life, conveying symbolically his birth process, and he took birth in Patna City, on December 18, 1661 in just five verses. Every one born of a woman. spends about eight to nine months as his foetal life in mother’s womb just like an ascetic in deep meditations, in upside down posture, head downward and legs clung to the belly upward. The Guru states that he was in deep meditations in love of the Divine, when he saw the light of the day in Patna City. Sanyasis and other ascetics go to jungles, and find a suitable place there for their abode and meditations. Generally they find such a place, which should be in the jungle, vegetation bearing produce to live on, and also near some source of water supply for their daily use to sustain themselves; generally we find ascetic abodes near a stream or river. There they build a hut to live in. The Yogis on the other hand go to high mountaneous areas, there they search for a suitable cave to live in, and the place should be near some water spring, to meet with their water needs. They also search for such places where they find the jungle produce to satisfy their hunger. Both ascetics and Yogis select their respective places, which are near to some inhabitation – they expect that the neighbouring inhabitation will serve them with meals, or they would visit the inhabitations and beg for their meals. Hem Kunt Mountain is situated North of Hardwar – Rikhikesh in Utar Pradesh State at a height of more than 14,000 feet above sea level. The area remains snow bound for more than eight months in a year. Nothing grows there and no one ever lived there. The habitations are found 30 to 40 miles, down these hills. Raja Pandu did not meditate on God there, but lived in the jungle and had sexual union (yog) with his wife, which the Guru referred. Raja Pandu was not a saint, who ever meditated on God in these mountaneous area. The Guru metaphorically described his foetal life in his mother’s womb, which is misinterpreted. Mahabhartta largely is a classical world famous book of Mythology, description of which is for the scholars to unfold in plain words. All the World Cultures are based on Mythological stories, Mahabhartta is one of such books depicting Indian Culture. It is a matter of great regret and humiliation to write that for past about 300 years we have not produced a single scholar to have thought deeply over the metaphors and the similes the Guru gave in just five verses, to have arrived at the correct conclusion. One wonders that Kala Afghana, Gurtej Singh and other IOSS zealots how shamelessly and dare devilishly not realizing their own insignificance, they not only challenge the corerectness of the text, but also mock and ridicule at every bit of the Divine Writings? Let us examine the text of the Divine Writings, with due reverence and dispassionately - Return to the top of the page. Facts about Guru Gobind Singh’s Previous Life as given by the Guru in his composition‘Bichitar Natak’ It is generally believed that Guru Gobind Singh, in life immediately preceding his birth at Patna (December 18, 1661) was leading the life of an ascetic, doing penance and meditation at the Hem Hunt Mountain. It was while the Guru was performing these penance that God summoned him to His presence and told him, to take birth and become the successor Guru to Guru Tegh Bahadur. The interpretation of the Guru’s writings , that in his previous life he was leading life of an ascetic, is not correct. Below we give excerpts from the Guru’s writings as in ‘Bichitar Natak’ (A Wonderful Drama): “I shall now tell my own story. How God sent me into the world, while I was doing penance. There is mountain called ‘Hem Kunt’ (a cave surrounded by ice), which has seven conspicuous peaks in the area of the garden of Sapat Sring. It was here that king Pandu practiced jog (union). There I too performed my austerities and remembered God. As a result of my remembrance of God, I attained complete union with Him. My father and mother also, worshipped God and strove hard to remember Him. The Great Guru (God) was so pleased with their complete devotion to Him, that He asked me, to take birth in this Kal Yuga (Age of sin). Being fully absorbed in my love of God, I did not desire to come to this world. God, not accepting my representations for not coming to the world, made me understand its necessity. Saying: ‘I have cherished you as My Son and am sending you in the world to extend My Religion. Go and spread My Religion there. Restrain the people from their senseless acts’. I stood up, folded my hands, bowed my head and replied, “Your Religion will prevail in all the world, when it has Your support.” Guru Gobind Singh’s writings are full of similes and symbolism. The paragraph od the Guru’s writings mentioned above cannot be literally translated. There are two statements made by the Guru in the above mentioned composition. Firstly that he was a recluse or hermit doing penance at a place where King Pandu practiced jog (union). Secondly, commanded by God, he took birth in this Age of Sin (Kali Yuga). As we have seen from the lives of Guru Nanak Dev and the succeeding Gurus, the Sikh Teachings are averse to such type asceticism. The human mind is cultivated to its maturity by association with saintly society and by confronting evil situations. By associating with evil, one becomes evil minded. Those who flee from their hoomes to live in forests or climb high mountains to live in isolated caves, gain nothing and become perverted. Guru Gobind singh teaches us - “O man, practice asceticism in this way. Consider your house as a forest, and remain an anchorite at heart. Make continence your matted hair, union with God your ablutions. Make your religious duties as the growth of your nails and Divine Knowledge your spiritual guide. Admonish your heart and apply God’s Name as ashes to your body. Eat little, sleep little, love mercy and forbearance. Always practice mildness and patience, then you may be freed from ‘Maya’ (Illusion) and the effect of Matter of Three Qualities. In this way you may behold the Reality in this world and obtain to the Supreme Being”. The belief that Guru Gobind Singh in his previous life was leading a life of an ascetic, doing penance at Hem Kunt Mountain is based on a faulty interpretation of the above mentioned Guru’s writings. The Guru states that he did penance and meditate in the garden of Sapat Sring, where King Pandu also was engaged in yogic meditation. If we are to interpret this verse correctly, we will have to study the Hindu epic known as the ‘Mahabhartta.’ The ‘Mahabhartta’ is an epic poem, which gives in detail, the political, social and religious life of the antiquities of the Hindu world. History’s men of great culture have displayed their creative nature by their capacity to speculate and imagine. Guru Gobind Singh’s works exist in this sphere. An account of king Pandu’s life is given in the ‘Sambhava Purva’ of the Mahabhartta. Vyasa, the celebrated author of the Vedas, is also the author of this great epic. He was the son of the great sage Parasara and was connected with the families of Kaurvas and Pandvas. King Santanu is said to have married the goddess Ganga. She gave birth to seven children and every time, she took the child and cast it into the river Ganga. The king could not raise any objection to her doing this, as he had pledged to her, before their marriage, that he would never stand in her way. When her eighth child was born and she was about to throw it into the river, the king could not bear it any longer and told her not to murder her innocent children. This time she did not kill the child but disappeared herself. The child became known as Bhishma. Years went by until one day, as the king was wandering on the banks of river Yamuna, he saw a lovely maiden and wanted to marry her, She was the river Yamuna, in the form of fisher-woman. Her father, a fisher-man, laid down the condition that the king could only marry her if any child of this marriage succeeded as the king. The king could not fulfill this condition, as he already had a son, Bhishma. However, then Bishma observed his father’s dejection, he went to see the fisher-man and pledged to him that he would never become king and would never marry, so that now there would be no question of any one else succeeding the king save any off-spring of the fisher-man’s daughter. In this way, Yamuna (Satyavati), married king Santanu. Before her marriage to the king, Satyavati, in an earlier union with Rishi Parasara had had a son named Vyasa, the composer of the epic Mahabharta. She now bore king Santanu a son named Vichitravirya, who ascended the throne of his father at his death. Vichitravirya in turn married the two daughters of king of Kasi, who were named Amvika and Amvalika. After seven years of married life, king Vichitravirya died, leaving his two queens childless. Satyavati, now begged her step son, Bhishma to marry her two daughters-in-law and raise children for his dead step brother. But Bhishma could not agree to the proposal on account of his vow of celebacy. Satyavati then thought of her son Vyasa and asked him to meet the two widowed queens, in order to continue the line of his deceased step brother. Soon after a monthly period of Princess Amvalika was over, Satyavati purified her with baths, led her to her inner apartments, seated her on a luxurious bed and said: “Your husband had an elder brother. It is he who to-night will enter your womb. Do not go to sleep but wait for him.” Amvika thought that she would be visited by Bhishma, but on seeing Vyasa, the ugliest of men, closed her eyes in fear. He embraced her, but not once during the embracing did she open her eyes and look at him. Amvika gave birth to a blind son, who became known as Dhritarashtra. Similarly, Vyasa visited the second widowed queen Amvalika. When Vyasa came to her bed room, she turned pale with fear. She gave birth to a son named Pandu. - The Pale. Satyavati then told Amvika to have another child by Vyasa but she refused. She then sent a maid servant in her place. When Vyasa went into the room, the maid showed no fear. She pleased Vyasa in all respects. She was blessed in every way and bore a most intelligent son, named Vidura. The story now continues round these three brothers, Dhritarashtra, Pandu, Vidura and their descendents. Dhritarashtra was married to Gandhari, who bore to him one hundred sons, the oldest was Daryodhana - Hard to Conquer (the evil in human nature). Pandu became the king and married Kunti. Kunti was daughter of King Sura, who was Yadava by caste. Kunti was also known as Pritha, pleased Rishi Durvasa, who gave her a magical prescription “Mantra”. Through this Mantra she could summon whatever god she wished to give her sons. The Rishi had also fore-knowledge of her future husband, Pandu’s immature death. Kunti while she was still a virgin, out of a curiosity, to test the validity of the Mantra invoked “Arka Vivswat”, the sun god, who at once appeared before her. She became totally confused but the sun god, not leaving her, embraced her. The union gave birth to a son named Karna, from one of her ears. Her marriage to king Pandu took place later. In due course, king Pandu married a second wife, named Madri, the daughter of king Madra. Vidura married the daughter of king Devaha, born of a Sudra (low caste) wife of the king. Vidura himself was also born of a Sudra mother. One day, King Pandu went to jungle for hunting. He saw a huge stag coupling with a doe. The king discharged five arrows from his bow and mortally wounded both the deer. As they fell to the ground, the stag wept bitterly like a man. Actually the stag was not a deer but the son of a great Rishi, who had been enjoying his wife in the form of a deer. He told Pandu that he was a wicked man. Pandu replied, “When kings go out to hunt deer, they kill them as do their enemies, when chasing them. Even Rishis hunt deer and sacrifice them to their gods. Why do you reproach me?” The stag then replied, “Virtuous kings do not attack their enemies, when they are unprepared, but first declare war. I do not blame you for killing deer, but to kill any creature, in the act of copulation is a great sin. When male and female join together, it is agreeable to every creature; it is ordained by gods, and it is good for all. You should have waited until the act was completed. For this sin I curse you. When you join your wives, you will be deemed killed along with your wife. As you have brought grief to me, while I was enjoying happiness, so shall the same happen to you.” (This is the symbolic meaning of sexual intercourse, i.e. to be killed). So saying the deer died. King Pandu was very much shocked and dejected. He told his wives to go to his people and tell them that he would become an ascetic, even though they begged to stay with him. Pandu then became an ascetic and disciple of the Sidhas, who resided in the forests. The Sidhas and Rishis of the forests then arranged to go on a mountaneous pilgrimage. Pandu wanted to accompany them with his wives but the Rishis said: “On our way are heights and regions of perpetual snow, where neither animals, birds or even trees can live; only the winds and Sidhas are there, so how can your princesses exist there?” As his wives could not copulate with him, Pandu replied, “I have no sons, nor am I in a position to create them. I owe a debt to my ancestors. I wish to know if my wives can have children by another man?” The Rishis gave the assent and foretold the birth of wonderful children for him, from other men. Kunti remembering her Mantra invoked the god of justice. Through him she had a son named Yudhishtra. After some time, Kunti invoked the god of wind and through him had a son named Bhima. Later again she invoked Indira and gave birth to a son named Arjuna. Madri, the second wife of king Pandu now expressed her desire to bear children. Pandu asked Kunti to help Madri in this respect. Kunti told Madri to think of the gods with whom she wanted to have children and she would arrange it. Madri thought of the twin Aswins. They were invoked by Kunti and they came to Madri. By then she had twin sons, Nakula and Sahadeva. In this way, five sons (Pandu Brothers) were born to king Pandu. When Pandu actually saw his five handsome sons growing up in the forest of the slopes of the mountain, he felt his sexual power returning. One day, accompanied by Madri, he went out to wander in the woods of the garden of Sapat Sringa. It was spring time, the season that causes unrest in all creatures. Flowers bloomed everywhere filling the woods with their gentle perfume, all the pools were full of lotus blossoms. King Pandu in the midst of all this, sat down to rest with a youthful mortal. His desire for her flared, like a forest fire. Unable to restrain himself, he put his arms around her, while she, knowing that his death would result , endeavored to restrain him. Intoxicated with desire and as if wishing to end his life, he united himself with her. No sooner was this done then life left him, in accordance with the Rishi’s curse. When the body of king Pandu was cremeated, Madri jumped into the fire to be with him. The word “jog” means union. What type of yog did king Pandu have? It was a sexual union with his wife - a union in the womb of his wife. During the gestation period, the baby grows in the womb, where prior to his existence its father had had the union. Guru Gobind Singh in his composition ‘Bichitar Natak’ refers to King Pandu’s place of union (at Sapat Sringa) and states that there (in his mother’s womb) he had his union with God in the company of his Holy Mother. It will be observed that in the above account the womb has been described as “a place”, where on its heights, are regions of perpetual snow, where neither animals and birds nor even trees can live; only the winds, the Sidhas and the great Rishis are there.” The Guru also described it as the “Hem Kunt Mountain” (A cave, in a snow covered Mountain). Dr Nandor in his book ‘New Approaches to Dream Interpretation’ (page 116) has given the following dream in respect of “The Mountain of Birth”. “I talk to a friend in a boastful way of former feats. ‘Do you see that mountain there? We used to climb to its top and hike around up there, where the clouds are.’ Then we coasted down on a sleigh and had difficulties, because the snow did not cover the road completely. There were stretches of road bare of snow. Suddenly a great, lumbering grizzly bear came from the left towards me. I was very frightened, as I felt I could not pass it with the sleigh owing to the poor snow conditions. I start over the slope to my left, willing to risk my limbs in a steep ride that could land me in a gully. Anything to get away from the bear. I did not have enough time to move in either direction, I ended in a tree. Climbing to the top of a mountain and enjoying his stay high up in the clouds” was a recurrent dream with this patient. He did not realize that the the dream was a fantasy of returning into the uterus (womb). The mountain top in a sea of clouds is an island. An island like a mountain submerged in the sea. An island, is a universal symbool of an unborn child, in its amniotic fluid. The foetus is a living island. The dreamer’s boast of former feats (not based on actual experience), is his way of basking in the glory of his past, in the memory of parental Bliss. The sleigh ride down hill, is a dynamic representation of the journey down the uterine canal, the danger of the fall in birth being represented by the gully, its difficulties by insufficient snow on the ground and its terror by the bear. The snow, because of his coldness, is often used in dreams for discomfort or fear. Its insufficiency over part of the road, is a cumulative emphasis on the danger of descent.” It is abundantly clear from the above account that Guru Gobind Singh, in his composition, gave a beautiful description of his foetal life, in his mother’s womb. All human beings have to do penance and live an isolated life in their mother’s womb. A baby in the womb, float head down, knees pulled upwards, just as ascetics do. The Guru in his composition states that he attained complete union with God and that God told him, to take birth in this Kal Yuga (Age of Sin). This clearly means that the Guru was not physically in existence in this world in Kal Yuga, and that his birth at Patna, was his first, in the Kal Yuga. Hindu sacred books divide Time into Four Yugas, each one of thousands of years. Kal Yuga is the Fourth and the Last Yuga. Hem Kunt Mountain is situated North of Hardwar – Rikhikesh in Utar Pradesh State at a height of more than 14,000 feet above sea level. The area remains snow bound for more than eight months in a year. Nothing grows there and no one ever lived there. Raja Pandu did not meditate on God there, but lived in the jungle and had sexual union (yog) with his wife, which the Guru referred. Raja Pandu was not a saint, who meditated on God in these mountaneous area. The Guru metaphorically described his foetal life in his mother’s womb, which is misinterpreted. Mahabharta largely is a classical world famous book of Mythology, description of which is for the scholars to unfold in plain words. All the World Cultures are based on Mythological stories, Mahabhartta is one of such books depicting Indian Culture. It is rather strange that Sikhs built a shrine in the memory of Guru Gobind Singh’s alleged previous life as an ascetic meditating in the mountaneous region north of Hardwar and Rikhikesh! The prevalent mis-interpretation of the Guru’s myth in Bichittar Natak, is not only means lack of lack of our scholarship, but also in haste total nullification of the Truth as preached by the Guru himself. We do not yet understand that the myths cannot be literally interpreted. http://srec.gurmat.info/srecarticles/srida...html#Hem%20Kunt Dalip Singh and Amarpreet Singh Munde

Gur Fateh Randip Singh, Good to hear from you again! In general, I find that we broadly agree in terms of the core principals here and yes Sikhi is certainly exclusive in this regard. However, as you say, we have long lost this faculty. Maharaja Ranjit certainly did break away from this notion in setting up a Monachy and the present day incumbents of Sikh temporal power the SGPC have really taken matters to the pits with their pseudo-democratic elections. The way forward is a difficult one to assess, Dr Seva Singh Khalsi's paper on this subject (which I've to locate for a weblink) deals with the pros and cons of the various systems used today from elections, selections, punj pyare, 'parchia pona' (drawing lots) through to appointed selection/heritage... Thanks for sharing your ideas, GUR BAR AKAAAL!

Sardar Randip Singh Ji! GUR FATEH! Thanks for your response, I agree that democracy 'aims' to have the best person appointed for the job in hand, however in practice, Democracy is little more than power to the numerical majority or increasingly as we are seeing, power to the mob... ...now I agree with the examples you give, the individuals concerned were awarded the roles in question on the basis of their merits, but, unless I am mistaken, none were ever elected.... ...given your examples on social justice, I feel this to be where we may need to separate the discussion, I had initially referred to democracy as a means of political structure and power, and as you quite rightly say, Sikhs along with the rest of the I would add, have made a mockery of such principles...however, matters such as social justice are more akin to principles arising from a 'welfare state' which is not exclusive to democracy... ...this is an interesting topic, which I hope we can continue to explore, I am no political scientist or scholar, so please forgive any foolish comments on my part...I leave you with the following from the late Sardar Kapur Singh on the Sikh Poitical Structure... (1) The sangat, meaning, the local folk assembly of direct representation. (2) The Panth, which is the whole Commonwealth represented by the Peoples’ Assembly of indirect representation. (3) The Khalsa, which postulates the sui generis, inalienable sovereignty of the People. (4) The condominium of Guru Granth and Panth, which implies that the exercise of power is always subject to bonafides and good conscience. (5) The Panjpiaras which is the doctrine of collegial leadership in the direction of State policies. [34] (6) The Gurmata which is the symbol and form of the authority of the Collective Will of the people duly formulated. (7) The Sarbat Khalsa doctrine of completely equalitarian free democracy. Ref: http://www.sikhcoalition.org/Sikhism15.asp

Gur Fateh! Again! Here's the article I referred to, please read this and reflect...and my apologies it's not titled the waterites, but "THE GREAT DEBATE" "NAAM JAPPO MEREY SAAJAN SENA!" Gur Bar Akaaaaal! NOTE REFERRED TO: 17.2 The Great Debate Once upon a time, in a vast desert where the scorching sun shone 24 hours a day, there lived a withering community amongst whom was a group of radiant Water-Ites. They worshipped the scarce commodity called water. In their temple was a huge glass tank. People would come here and bow with reverence. The priest would tell them stories from days gone by about the Wise Old Teacher who had brought the drink of life to them. The Wise Old Teacher had told them of a great and wonderful ocean that he'd travelled far and wide to find. Returning to the desert he had brought the sacred water and left it in the huge glass tank for all to drink. While the Wise Old Teacher was alive, people from miles around would come and quench their thirst, word spread fast and many people adopted Waterism as their way of life. They loved water, it made their dried up bodies feel rejuvinated. The heat of the scorching sun had made most of the town's people irratible and angry, they fought each other over petty things because they were so mentally anguished. But this 'Water' cooled them down and their mind and body bloomed and blossomed with every sip. When the Wise Old Teacher left this world and dived back into the Supreme Cool Ocean, the problems began. One day, while the Priest was telling stories of old, he looked at the tank and noticed something. He said, 'Dearly beloved, today the tank is exactly half full'. Before he could continue an angry man in the congregation got up and shouted, 'NO IT'S NOT! IT'S EXACTLY HALF EMPTY!' It was midday and the heat was at it's worst. The priest jumped up greatly offended at being criticised infront of his congregation and shouted back 'NO YOU STUPID FOOL, IT'S EXACTLY HALF FULL'. And the poor uneducated congregation just got confused. Some of them agreed with the priest, some agreed with the angry man and some weren't sure. Fighting ensued and the angry man was thrown out. As he marched home he planned how to get control over the temple, it infuriated him that such an ignorant man as the priest was in charge of the Water-Ites. A few months passed. He recruited the top scientists and they produced detailed mathematical calculations that proved beyond any possible doubt that the tank was exactly half-empty. The Priest on other hand appealed to the hearts of the people, he spoke sweetly and sung songs about how if you were a true Waterite you would be deeply hurt by the people who said anything other than the tank was half-full. Now every Sunday the Waterites would go to the temple and discuss the latest mathematical evidence, or what the Priest had been saying. People who didn't have an opinion on the subject were scorned at for not caring enough about their holiest of holy tank of water. These people said we are thirsty and just want to have a drink, but they were in the minority and soon forgotton about. They carried on coming early every morning taking a sip then leaving. Now and again they would go to the main Sunday gathering and plead to the people to take a daily drink, but both sides would just say, 'Are you mad? The great debate is such a major crisis that we must spend all our energy defending the truth, no time to drink!' Now people in the community said 'Look at those Waterites, a bunch of hypocrites, they act all holy and w wording to HALF-FULL without asking anyone. Somehow the temple hierarchy let him get away with it. They were too busy counting all the money that was pouring into the temple funds to care about wording. And early every morning, while the withered ones were still sleeping, a radiant Waterite would walk into the temple past, take a sip and walk home again with a smile on her face, fully rejuvinated. -- -------- Raag Mala, Meat, 5th K, which Nitnem Banees, Saas-Giraas Breathing Techniques......arguing about these is all Maya's illusion and keeps us from quenching our thirst.... Raam Japo Jee Aise Aise, Dhroo Prahlad Japio Har Jaise... Meditate on Naam like Bhagat Dhroo and Prahlad did. I.E They were thirsty for God's Vision and determined, being children they were innocent and simple and spared from getting side-tracked by religious rights and wrongs. While millions of pundits, brahmins, scholars and Hindus probably discussed one hundred and one Hindu controversies, the Bhagats had God-shaped holes in their hearts that their constant Naam Simran filled. Guru Amar Das Jee sings a beautiful shabad about controversies: SIREE RAAG, THIRD MEHL (panna 68) The demon's son Prahlaad had not read about religious rituals or ceremonies, austerity or self-discipline; he did not know the love of duality. Upon meeting with the True Guru, he became pure; night and day, he chanted the Naam, the Name of the Lord. He read only of the One and he understood only the One Name; he knew no other at all. || 4 || The Pandits, the religious scholars, read and argue and stir up controversies, but without the Guru, they are deluded by doubt. They wander around the cycle of 8.4 million reincarnations; without the Shabad, they do not attain liberation. But when they remember the Name, then they attain the state of salvation, when the True Guru unites them in Union. || 6 || Taken from : http://www.gurmatps.org/gps/index.html?../...he_great_debate

Gur Fateh to All! There was an interesting article written by one Balbir Singh entitled the "waterites" which I would recommend all to read. (Should I be able to locate it again, I shall post here in due course). Khalsa Soulja, thanks for your honest and heart rendered comments, I too like yourself, underwent a period of doubting much of the Dasam Granth when I read more and more of it (with my strict logically mind) and I do now sincerely repent for every second of doubt and pray that I be forgiven for such a horrendous act of thought and speech... ...yes, I did, by Guru Maharaj's Kirpa, begun to awaken to the truth surrounding the Dasam Granth -YES!!! THIS IS BANI! As per the status, let us, leave aside whatever 'Sakhia' we may have heard -these are more likely to be riddled with historical inaccuracies than anything else -please TRUST Bani... ...as already shown (by Khalsa Soulja) the references in the Dasam Granth straight after the 'Arril' which follows after the full 'Benti-Chaupai' as per all Puratan Gutka Raheraas Bani, gives plenty of indication for the actual date of writing of the Dasam Granth... Similarly, let's concentrate on "BANI HAI GURU; GURU HAI BANI!" If one does desire historical / associated Sakhia, please consider the fact that Guru Arjan Dev Ji from the time of completion of the Adi-Granth, always placed the Granth at a higher level than him and all Sikhs showed due reverence to it from that day onwards...as Guru! As per Treh Charitr, I've read most of Pritpal Singh's translation and have been told by many that this work is incomplete, nonetheless, I personally do not find this to be insulting or otherwise...there are references in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib which use explicit terms too. For instance, consider the following snippets:- mai math joban garab gaalee dhudhhaa thhanee n aaveae || Intoxicated with the wine of youthful pride, she has been ruined, and her breasts no longer yield milk. -Guru Nanak Dev Ji Raag Gauree 242 dhudhhaa thhanee n aavee fir hoe n maelaa ||2|| Milk does not return to the breast; it will not be collected again. ||2|| -Bhagat Sheikh Fareed Ji Raag Soohee 794 And also in Bhai Gurdas Ji di Varan:- mohan maamae paaeioun baahar aaee garab gehaelee|| With great pride she pressed her breast teat in the mouth of Krishna and came out. -Bhai Gurdaas Ji Vaars Bhai Gurdaas 10 The above snippets of course need to be read in context of the entire shabd, just as the Treh Chartr does and much of the Dasam Granth. I would like to address some points raised by Dhariwalhs above -these are my personal opinions founded upon my limited understanding of Bani and experience of the Shabd.

Gur Fateh to All!!! From what little I have read, I would have to agree that Kaur does not begin to appear as the name of Sikh women until around the mid-late 18th century. I am not personally aware of any evidence of Mata Sundari ji or Mata Sahib Devan being referred to as Mata Sundar Kaur or Mata Sahib Kaur prior to 20th century literature (Bhai Kahn Singh Nabha appearing to be a key scholar associating name Kaur to Mata Sahib Devan's name). Kaur, does indeed mean Prince and a famous Sikh Kaur (male) was the formidable Brahm-Giani Akali Kaur Singh Nihang. (Incidently, if anyone has any information, or access to the works of this great Akali-Nihang-Khalsa-Singh, please do let me know). The numerous hukamnamas from the two Mata jis reference them as Mata Sundari ji or Mata Sahib Devi ji with no mention of Kaur. Nor are there any specific instructions in the Rehitnamas or other historical documents to name Sikh females as Kaurs following the Amrit ceremony. It has recently become a trend refer to Mata Sahib Devan as Sahib Kaur and Mai Bhago as Bhag Kaur. From what I have read, the first Kaurs we find in Sikh history are the females in the families of Misl Sardars or in the household of Ranjit Singh. Given that the present Rehit Maryada (standardised by Singh Sabha leaders) is formed from cumulative additions over a period of time, for instance, the earliest Rahitnamas mention either five weapons or three kakaar (Kachh, Kes, Kirpan) as Treh-Mudra (Kara and Kangha seem to have come later) and gievn recent attempts by some to include Keski as one of the Kakaars, it is possible that Kaur for Sikh females as a compulsory part of the name may have been propagated by the Singh Sabha leaders. I request that any oversight on my part in the foregoing or foolish comments be forgiven and should anyone know of more appropriate expalnations for the Mata Sahib Devan and Mata Sundari not using Kaur as second name, please advise accordingly. Gur Bar Akaaal!!!! References (to Hukamnamas):- Dr Ganda Singh and Punjabi University Patiala collected these Hukamnamas, one of which is provided below written to Bhai Dunna, Bhai Sabha, Bhai Aala from the 1999 edition of the book "Hukamname" edited by Dr Ganda Singh and published by Punjabi University Patiala. (Page 209, Hukamnam No.74) Sri Akal Purkh ji ka khalsa sri Mata Sahab Devi ji agya hai. Bhai Dunna, Bahi Sabha, Bhai Aala, Bhai Bakhata, Bhai Ladha sarbat kabila Rame Phool ke ka. Guru rakhe. Guru Guru japana. Janam swarna. Meri Bahut khusi hai. Tusi mere putar farjand ho. Guru tuhadi pat rakhe. Bhai Dunna, Sabha, tusi jo asadi valon fir rahe ho ar kar bheta langar no kadi kuchh nahi bhejde kia tusi Mata Sundari de bakhre aye ho. Asan tuhade ghar no niras nah kia. Guru ka ghar iko kar janana. Tusada bhala hosi. Tusadi seva dargah Guru ki thai pausi. Seva doha val iko jehi karni. Tusada bahut bhala hosi. Translation: The Khalsa of Akal Purakh ji. This is at the order of Mata Sahab Devi ji. Bhai Dunna, Bahi Sabha, Bhai Aala, Bhai Bakhata, Bhai Ladha and the entire clan of Rama and Phool. May Guru protect you. Recite Guru Guru. Life would be fruitful(spiritually,translator). I am happy at you. You are my dear sons. May Guru protect your honour. Bhai Dunna, Sabha, that you are turning back from me and never send any offerings/contributions for Langar are you somehow separately related to Mata Sundari. I never disappointed your clan(house). Consider Guru's house as one. You would gain merit. Your service/contributio would be in place in the Guru's Dargah. You should serve both sides equally. You would gain much merit. The above would seem to indicate that even over 20 years after Guru ji passed away both Mata jis were known as Mata Sahib Devi and Mata Sundari.

Gur Fateh to All! jjj, Thanks for your post! I am aware that of indications that Buddha ate meat and that Jesus ate fish...also of the suggestions that Guru Nanak Dev Ji ate the meat he cooked at Kurukshetra -however these are contentious events that scholars are divided upon... ...as I stated at towards the end of my post, what exactly constitutes the make up of each Gunn in terms of food is variable depending on where you source you're info. For instance, go to a Taoist Physician (who use a similar set of tools, accept based on 5 elements) and he/she'll tell you that a householder's diet requires meat and only celebate monks/nuns should follow a vegetarian diet...go to a Buddhist, Hindu or Sikh (excepting Nihang perhaps) practitioner of Auyrveda, and you'll you told to follow a vegetarian diet where possible... ...like with anything, these are tools...means to an end...not ends in themselves. I do agree with your point on 'blessing' food with the Gur Mantr (or another appropriate Shabd -Mool Mantr or Satnam...or otherwise, dependent on your beliefs)...the spiritual quality is often lacking in today's busy-busy world.

Gur Fateh to All!!! Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh in his autobiography relates his experience of meeting 'the holy mother' Mata Gulab Kaur. Does anyone know more about this female saint and also about any others that they could bring to the forum. Many thanks! Gur Bar Akaaaal!!!

Gur Fateh!!! Thanks for this, great article For your information, I provide below some details relating to the Dohras concerning this topic. As always, I welcome all feedback in this regard and request for any foolish comments made by me to be forgiven. Gur Bar Akaaal!!! Note referred to: Raj karega Khalsa aki rahe na koi Khuar hoi sab milainge bache sharan jo hoi This dohra is the 35th stanza in the current version of Bhai Nand lal?s Tankhahnama. Intriguingly the 34th is a Chaupai which goes thus Jhoolan neje hasti saje duar duar par naubat baje swa lakh jab dhukhe paleeta tab khalsa udai asat lau jeeta The Dohra is followed by a sentence with which the current Tankhahnama ends which is Bachan hai Guru ji ka ki jo koi Sikh beta hoi ar mona hoi jave tiski jar sukkie aur jo mona Sikh ho jave tiski jar haree. Many regard this 'disjointed' portion unbefitting of Bhai Nand Lal Ji's persona when compared to his skillfull and beautiful Persian Ghazals (which require a very sophisticated sense of metre and rhyme, unlike the foregoing)...I am not skilled in these languages to comment, so welcome any members of the Forum who can help in this regard to do so... As per the other common Dohra Agya bhai akal ki... .......guru manio granth. I understand is first found Prahilad Rai's Rahitnama which is dated as 1695 AD in Abchal Nagar in the presence of Guruji, however this runs counter to references indicating that Guruji was in Abchal Nagar around 1709 and not in 1695. The general notion of this Dohra is expounded in a number of places in Prahilad Rai's Rahitnama: 24th stanza:- Guru Khalsa manio pragat Guru ki deh joi Sikh miliau chahe khoj ino mai leh n.b. Guru = Khalsa (as opposed to Guru Granth) 30th stanza:- Akal purkh ke bachan siun pragat chalaio panth Sabh Sikhan ko bachan hai Guru manio Granth. 38th Stanza 38:- Sati Akal sri Waheguru param beej ih mant Sabh sikhan ko bachan hai guru manio Granth. The present version of Agya bhayee Akal ki version I understand to be written by Giani Gian Singh (Panth Parkash) during the late nineteenth century. Personally, I feel there to be no doubt Guru Granth Sahib is, was and always has been the Guru for the Sikhs given internal evidence in the Granths themselves and also as mentioned by Kavi Sainapat (who most Scholars regard to be a reliable source) however I do feel the contorted dohras were written subsequently during a period when prehaps Sikh rule did appear to be possible.

Gur Fateh to All!!! JSB, further to your posting on the 'Khalsa' meaning the 'pure' -this is an interesting notion as the 'pure' is a common translation given by many, however one with little support. The late Sardar Kapur Singh in his writings (Parasaprasna, in particular) refers to the term as 'being subordinate to no other' and links it together with much of the symbolism evident in the Guru Darbar as marks of Sovereignty. I would like to present below two posts I came across some while ago by scholars Sardars Serjinder Singh Ji and Yuktanand Singh JI, who provide an alternative to the foregoing meanings of the term Khalsa and tie them well with documented history. I would be grateful for any feedback on this matter. As far as the prophercies are concerned, I would simply hasten that concern and due diligence be noted with all such materials, which have repeated througout history been used as a means of socio-political propaganda and the numerous copies of the Sau Sakhi infiltrated by the British is just one example for the Sikhs. Another would be the numerous dubious claims of the predictions of the coming of Guru Nanak in Vedic texts. Gur Bar Akaaal!!! Note referred to: (Taken from http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion....9?OpenDocument) Wahguru ji ka Khalsa! Waheguru ji ki fateh!! On the 14th of January every year Sikhs celebrate Maghi Jor Mela (The fair on the first day of month Magh) at Muqatsar in Punjab to commemorate the Battle of Muqatsar. A brief note follows to explore the context in which the forty Sikhs were bestowed the title Muqta. The word "Khalsa" or more precisely "Khalisah" is a Persian word. It may further be added that it is an Arabic word adopted into Persian. The dictionaries give the meanings as "Crown or government lands, Pure; a revenue collector's office;." I feel that the crown lands is the most appropriate meaning of the word Khalsa in the context of Sikhism rather than the traditional meaning ?pure?. If Guruji again and again refer to themselves as the ones with enumerable evil qualities (Avguniar) and lowliest among the lowelies it seems out of place to say that Guruji would encourage the Sikhs to imagine themselves as pure and push them into the clutches of Haumai. In the extant Hukamnamas (the epistles) written to the Sikhs by the Sixth, Ninth, and the Tenth Guru ji. The Sikhs have been affectionately addressed as Tusi Mera Khalsa Ho You are my Khalsa Here pharase ?my Khalsa? implies that Khalsa is a noun. If it were adjective meaning pure then word Mera or mine would not be used to imply possessive sense. Other forms of this affection are Tusi Mere Put Dheean Ho You are my sons and daughters Tera Ghar Mera Ghar Ahe Your house is my house. These forms of address have one thing in common i.e. to highlight the closeness and affection Guruji expressed for the Sikhs. In this context interpreting Khalsa as an aggrandishment by taking the meaning of pure would be out of place. Khalsa is used here as a revenue term. It was unfortunate that the word Khalis, a Persian adjective was more well known to Punjabi masses being in use for refering to the purity of commodities even after Persian as the revenue language was replaced by English and Urdu during British period. The Sikhs being mainly from the lower strata of society by and large were illiterate in Persian and could not associate word Khalsa with its revenue meaning. The knowledge of Persian was an asset during the Mughal period as the following saying suggests, "Dekho Prabhu ke Khel, Parhe Farsi Beche Tel" Look at God's(unusual) games, (this person) studies Farsi(Persian) yet is a (poor) oil seller. The Sikhs who knew Persian and the correct meaning, in their attempt to appease the British rulers popularised the alternative "pure" as the meaning of Khalsa in the mid nineteenth century. Another misinterpretation of an Arabic revenue term due to unfamiliarity with Arabic and administrative history of Muslim rule in India may be considered to emphasise the point. Some of the Sikhs led by one Mahan Singh deserted the Tenth Guruji at the time of the siege at Ananadpur and went back to their villages in Majha or Amritsar area. Shamed by the womenfolk they joined Guruji to fight the Mughals on the banks of Khidrana (now Mukatsar) lake. After the battle, Guruji comforted the forty wounded and dying warriors and tore up the Bedawa (the disclaimer). The history books also say something more. While tearing up the Bedawa and comforting each warrior Guru ji bestowed the Muqta title on them collectively but also invoked on each one of them affectionately the titles such as, ?this one is my "Panj Hazari (entitled to a salary of five thousand rupees)", and this one my, "Das Hazari" and so on. When the story is normally narrated the interpreters do say that Guruji called them Muqtas meaning perhaps, the liberated ones but nobody attempts to explain what did Guruji mean when He called them Panj Hazari or Das Hazari. The word Muqt, Muqti, or Muqta appears quite frequently in Gurbani and is easily understood in terms of its Sanskrit meaning as liberation. However, in the Battle of Muqatsar Guruji was using Muqta not in the sense of liberation but as a revenue term quite well known since the early centuries of Muslilm Administration in India. During Tukish Sultanate rule in India, "The Sultanate was divided into provinces, each under a governor, generally termed MUQTAI, who was responsible for the administration of the province and the collection of revenue from those peasants who paid their tax directly to the state..... A fixed share of the revenue constituted his salary, the rest being remitted to the Sultan. ....In addition to the revenue raised by the MUQTAIS the Sultan was entitled to the income from the KHALSAH or crown lands.... The bulk of the land was still available to the Sultan to reward his officers.. This was known as the IQTA or land-grant system. The IQTA could vary in extent...The most common being those given in lieu of cash salaries. The MUQTAIS or IQTA-holders had to provide soldiers for the Sultan." (Romilla Thapar, A History of India, Vol.1,Penguin Books,1966, p. 272-3) The above quote clearly brings out the meaning of the word MUQTAI which has been distorted to the current MUQTA (Muqtai would sound feminine in Punjabi for the forty male warriors led by Mai Bhago so changed to the masculine form MUQTA). Guru ji raised the status of these forty martyrs to a status higher than even the KHALSAH. Whereas the KHALSAH is the crown land, the MUQTA are those who collect the revenue and govern these KHALSAH lands or the personal property of the Guruji. The betowing of the complementary titles "Das Hazari(entitled to Ten Thousand Rupees)" and "Panj Hazari(five thousand rupees)" becomes clear as the salary component of the revenue as the reward for the selfless service to the Guru Sultan. In Arabic, words are derived from the roots by prefixing M to a noun. Thus, hamad means prayer and praise of God. by prefixing Hamad with M the word becomes Mohammad or the person who prays to and praises God. Similarly , Noor(written as Nawar in Arabic) means light, and prefixing with M it becomes Munawar or enlightened. In the same way word Iqt or Iqtah means the division of the empire, a state or a province. By prefixing Iqtah with M we get the new word Muqtah or Muqtai which means he who has been entrusted with the management of the Iqta. The Guruji, Sacha Patsah, the true emperor, was emulating in spiritual terms what a Mughal emperor or a Turkish Sultan may have done in rewarding the wounded warriors in the battlefield after victory, granting the Muqtai or Muqtah titles to his brave generals and warriors. I hope the above scenerio helps bring out the true meaning of the terms, Khalsah and Muqta in the Sikh historical context. Humbly, I remain the charan dhoor of Sadh Sangat Serjinder Singh Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa! Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh! Let us remind ourselves that preferred meaning of 'Khalsa' is 'property', of God, as in "Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa" rather than "The pure ones." 'Khalsa' means "A piece of property reserved for the highest king." Collectively calling Guru's Sikhs "the pure ones" does not agree with Guru's teaching either. Guru Ji says, "Kabir I am the worst of all. Everyone else is good. My only friend is he who believes in this" (SGGS 1364 16-17), "I am not good and no one is bad" (SGGS 728:14), "Nanak is where the lowest of the lowly reside, why try to imitate the high? God's grace and mercy is distributed where the lowly ones reside." (SGGS 15:8-9) Guru's vision is that Khalsa Panth, good or bad, is, humbly, Waheguru's own. "If I made some mistakes, I am still yours, O Lord" (SGGS 761:7). Only with this attitude, can one belong to the Khalsa Panth. As for the Dohra, please also check my post and S Sahota's post in this thread from last year: http://www.sikhnet.com/Sikhnet/discussion....CA?OpenDocument Humbly Yuktanand Singh

Gur Fateh to All! Here's something that I'm hoping the Sikhawareness Cyber Sangat can provide some assistance with. There is common reference to the Anand Karaj ceremony, as it exists today, being formulated by the Nirankari Movement of Baba Dyal Das (not to be mistaken with the Sant Nirankari Outfit). Subsequently, during the early 20th century, at the peak of the Singh Sabha reforms, this was eventually recognised within the Indian law as the Anand Karaj Wedding Ceremony. Firstly, if any of the foregoing has errors please could you kindly shed light on these and clarify the actual situation -if possible with necessary references. Following from the above, I would be grateful if someone could shed some light on the following two areas:- (a) What was the common practice for Sikh to get married prior to the Anand Karaj Wedding ceremony (whether it was in fact instituted by the Nirankari movement or Namdhari, as other sources suggest or in fact by Guru Ji following the writing of the of Lavan). I ask this, as many usually suggest that Sikhs were being married by Pandits around the fire altar or Vedi (some even go to say that this happened as late as the middle of the last century). This is also, apparently the method in which the first 4 Guru's had their marriages conducted (please verify this too should anyone have further details), however what about Sikhs of this period who were not from Hindu backgrounds??? Sure, most were, however it is known that many Muslims and Buddhists were also attracted to Guru Nanak Dev Ji's Message... ( There are a number of additional customary events associated with the Anand Karaj, some of which clearly are of Punjabi 'Cultural' heritage. I would grateful if someone could indicate amongst these, the importance of the carrying of the Sword (Kirpan -full length), Kalgi et al, the standing of the brothers around the Sri Guru during the Lavan (which is often reprimanded by the Granthis) and also in supplying responses to this topic if all could note the comments below from a Learned Gur Sikh Scholar, Sardar Serjinder Singh on this topic (provided below). I look forward to hearing from you soon, please forgive any foolish comments in the foregoing. Gur Bar Akaaal! Note referred to:- > Waheguru ji ka khalsa > Waheguru ji ki fateh > I wonder if anyone could provide instances of Anand > Karaj ceremony referred > to in any writings of the seventeenth century or > earlier. > I might be wrong but as far as I am aware Anand > Karaj > the current marriage ritual didn't exist before the > nineteenth century. It is my opinion that couples > from Sikh families were > being married by > Pandits around the fire altar or Vedi as late as the > middle of the last century. My mother belonging to a > Sikh family took Amrit > from the five Singhs of the Mastuana Bunga and next > day she was married by > the Vedi ritual. The first references to Anand Karaj > appear i during the > nineteenth century in relation to the history of the > Nirankari Movement. > Akhand Paath and Anand > Karaj find reference during the rise of reformist > movements during early nineteenth century led by the > inspirers of Nirankari and Namdhari movements. > Whereas > Anand Karaj has been the hallmark of Nirankaris the > elaboration of the ritual aspect of Akhand Path was > that of the Namdharis. The later tend to make the > Akhand Path a substitute or analogy of Hindu Yagya > by > reciting Ved Mantars. > > Carrying a kirpan is part of the wider wedding > tradition where the groom is treated as a prince > with > a Kalgi, a kirpan in hand and riding a horse and > showered with coins or anything valuable such as > nuts, > dry fruit. The groom's marriage party is treated as > royal guest by offering gifts on milni and waiting > on > them when they had their food. In a feudal society a > prince leading away a princess was an ideal > scenario. > As it is there is nothing religious about the > movements. The supporter brothers supporting the > bride > is most often unnecessarily criticised by Ragis or > others. There is nothing to suggest that the > brothers > standing there are trying to substitute Waheguru ji > as > the mainstay of humans. It is just a close family > display of love for their sister or cousin sister to > reassure her that they are there in her married life > to fall back to in an extended family. > > More important in religious terms is the symbolism > of > circumabulation around Guru Granth Sahib ji. This is > the physical action equivalent to saying > > Hau Gholi Jeeo Ghol Ghumaee Tis Sache Gur Darbare > Jeeo. > > In Indian culture if one wanted to show his or her > devotion to a god, deity, or husband the ultimate > action would be to go round the deity, or the pyre > of > the husband a number of times and then bow at the > feet > and sacrifice one's life. This is what the phrase > Ghol > Ghumai means or Hau Vaaree or Sadke means. We do > this > symbolically when we bow before Guru ji or go around > Harmadir Sahib or aroud Guru Granth Sahib. > > During Lavan sometimes ignorant Ragis do not allow > the > circumambulation around Guru Granth Sahib. I find > the > whole activity charged with spiritual and temporal > emotions emanating from Rag Soohi in Gurbani or from > the actions of near and dear ones in the family > displaying love. > > Trying to put it into a ritualistic straight jacket > would be to make a rich emotional experience into > something done nervousely and devoid of emotions at > an > important moment of one's life. > > > Humbly > Serjinder Singh (Serjinder Singh Ji's comments taken from a posting on another Sikh Forum, please see http://www.sikhnet.com/Sikhnet/discussion....3?OpenDocument)

Gur Fateh to All! The 'Eastern' (for want of a better term) outlook on Health, be it Auyrvedic, Taoist or otherwise (incidently, much like philisophy, meditation, war arts and yoga arose from India, so too did this form of health care) all tend to focus on 3 qualities, 5 tastes or humours -basically, a framework of assessing health. Under Ayurveda there are 3 Gunas or fundamental attributes representative of states of energy which move from subtle to gross through action and interaction between themselves and therefore by definition can become subtle again. These are referred to as follows:- Sattva: Essence (subtle) Rajas: Activity Tamas: Inertia (gross) The 3 gunas can dominate an individual and food amongst other factors in life is traditionally thought to have been a influencing factor in regulating these gunas in the body and mind through "AYURVEDIC" cooking (I mention Ayurvedic in particular, or even Yogic Cusine, Taoist cooking because merely being vegetarian is NOT good enough!) To quote an article taken from Yogi Bhajan/3HO archives (note: I am not a member of this organisation, however this summary does serve as basic backdrop to these terms albeit somewhat tailored towards the 3HO sangat) Sattvic Foods: Sattvic means pure essence. In foods, Sattvic signifies the etheric qualities and includes foods such as fruits and vegetables, especially sun foods and ground foods. Sun foods are those that grow 3 feet or more above the ground. They have a quickening and lightening effect on the body's nervous and digestive systems. Sun foods comprise the diet of many sages and yogis. Ground foods are those foods that grow within 3 feet of the ground. They draw energy from the earth and are high in nutrients. Examples include grains, beans, legumes, and many vegetables. They are known to have a very cleansing effect on the body. A Sattvic diet is excellent for those individuals who lead a quiet, meditative life. Rajasic Foods: Rajas signifies the "can do" kind of energy. It is the energy which we need to accomplish, create, and achieve. It represents wordly power and the sex drive. Many of the ground foods are Rajasic. Stimulation herbs and spices are also examples of Rajasic food. A Rajasic diet is good for "householders" who aspire to maintain a meditative mind but need to live and work in the world as well. Yogi Bhajan recommends a combination of Sattvic and Rajasic foods for those of us who practice demanding disciplines such as endurance athletics, martial arts and Kundalini Yoga. Tamasic Foods: Tamas energy is heavy, dark, and dull. Tamasic foods include meat, poultry, fish, eggs, alcohol and other intoxicants including drugs. Foods that are over-processed, no longer fresh, and/or difficult to disgest are Tamasic. Foods that are prepared unconsciously or while the preparer is angry or in a negative mood are also considered Tamasic. If you are interested in vital health and spiritual growth it is best to avoid these foods. In conclusion, I would personally agree that those following a strict life of a Sadhu/Saint can survive easily on SATTVIC foods alone. Grishtis (Householders) also require RAJASIC energy to keep apace with the world. In general, for a KHALSA, Warrior-Saint, I personally would imagine a diet of SATTVIC and RAJASIC mix be most suited and TAMASIC avoided as much as possible. That said, what exactly falls into each category, in my experience does tend to vary significantly and I would recommend also reading up on Tibetan and Chinese Taoist view points on this subject in addition to the above. Should any errors have been made in the foregoing, then please accept my apologies and I welcome feedback to correct these. Gur Bar Akaaal!!!

Gur Fateh to All! Malwadoabamajha Ji (that sure is a mouthful! LOL) as per your query regarding committee members, as far as I am aware, Ramgharia Gurdwara Constitutions usually state that the Gurdwara is open to all (as per Maryada, i.e. regardless of Caste, Race, Religion et al) however the committee members are solely Ramgharias (so yes, non-Tarkhans can be on the committee, as not all Ramgharias are Tarkhans, albeit all Tarkhans tend to be Ramgharias -see my earlier notes). This is what essentially makes it the "Ramgharia" gurdwara. Yes, this is partly due to the issues arising from the discrimination experienced from past participation in the Singh Sabhas, however as stated earlier, this does not change the functioning of the Gurdwara Maryada in anyway and most areas have all annual events (i.e. Vasakhi, Gurpurabs etc) organised together by the Singh Sabhas and Ramgharia Sabhas. What remains of the historical heritage of the Ramgharias in India (much of it has been destroyed) can be seen near the Dabar Sahib Amritsar as the Ramgharia Bungas, although these have been re-constructed following the events of 1984. Interesting, prior to the advent of the SGPC and evolution of the Tat Khalsa orthodoxy as it stands today, there were many Bungas surrounding the Harmandir Sahib belonging to the Nirmalas and Udasi Akharas and Deras. These functioned as seats of learning and education from what little I understand of this (if anyone should know more, please do advise), however were sunsequently demolished and with them too the Nirmalas and Udasis removed from their positions in Amritsar... As per the topic of commitees (and subsequently elections and organisation) this is an interesting one to look into not only for Ramgharia and Singh Sabhas, but also for the Panth as a whole...particularly in light of the comments upon which I left my last note. Presently, most Gurdwaras are run upon a system of elections and many a text book on Sikhi and on Guru Gobind Singh in particular makes mention of Sikhi supportive of democratic systems. Similarly, Jassa Singh Ramgharia is also cited as having based his leadership upon democratic principles. Personally, I have always found this hard to stomach (just as much as the political leaflets of the 'communist' Sikh advocates). This is a wide topic and maybe better raising in a new thread, however I would like to suggest the following before closing:- To my knowledge : -none of the Guru's were elected (I acknowledge, this is somewhat different to local level management as some may argue) -none of the Masands (set up by Guru Amar Das Ji) had their heads elected -(temporal) leadership of the Panth following Guru Gobind Singh was never elected (i.e. Gurbux Singh aka 'Banda Singh Bahadur') -leaders of the Dal Khalsa and Misls were never elected Uptil the Sikh Raj under Ranjit Singh, there appears to have been a system of 'selection'. Following the Sikh Raj and the establishment of a monarchy (Sikh or Un-Sikh??? -maybe another topic to also discuss), democracy and elections seems to have appeared by virtue of British influence. I would recommend reading articles on Sikh policy by the late Sardar Kapur Singh (in Parasaranasna) and also Dr Seva Singh Kalsi's paper on Power in the Sikh Community (I shall look to provide links or mroe comprehensive references in due course). Finally, Khalsa Akal Purakh Ki Fauj...Dal Khalsa...Sant Sipai...all are indicative of an Army...can an Army ever function on the basis of election/democratic decision making??? Malwadoabamajha, I hope I provided some insight into yout query, I welcome all comments from all in the Sadh Sangat on any of the foregoing, and ask that any foolish comments on my part please be excused. Gur Bar Akaaal!!!

Gur Fateh to All! Gurjit Semhi Ji has some valid points on recent political points concerning Ramgharias vis-a-vis relations with the Singh Sabhas and 'Jatts' post partition. The separation in terms of Gurdwara Organisation actually emerged in East Africa, where for the first time since the Misldar Period, the Ramgharias eventually found themselves in the majority in certain locations (owing to the British Raj and need for the East African infrastructure constructions as Semhi Ji referenced). However, the split emerged early on with the Singh Sabha Gurdwaras invariably resulting in 'Jatt' domination through numerical majority (prior to the increase in Ramgharia populace) -please could the Sadh Sangat note, that I am not referencing caste out of spite or because I practice the 'system', simply for factual purposes (in no way am I trying to imply superiority of one above another -these are largely hereditary professions that many families chose to keep within and are not mentioned here for vindictive purposes, only for factual record). This did lead to the emergence of the Ramgharia Gurdwaras in East Africa, although I am aware that Ramgharia Councils and Sabhas also existed in India. Following the migration of the East African Sikhs into the UK (predominantly) during the 1970s, the institution (Ramgharia Sabha and Ramgharia Gurdwaras) were also brought with them. Interesting to note on the occupation of power by the Jatt brethren is that this occurance is spread across the diaspora, which also explains the existance of Ravi Dasia Gurdwaras and such like and also the events and politics surrounding much of Punjab and the SGPC management. As far the establishment of the Ramgharias in East Africa andsubsequently the UK is concerned, it is interesting to note that the eventual numerical majority in East Africa did have quite an effect on the community and the Panth at large. Many received success in a number of fields outside of the traditional Carpentry, Metal Work et al and moved into Engineering (some may argue this is a natural progression but keeps within the Hereditiary Tradition), Law and Medical fields. The result upon their arrival in the UK was notable in that previous Sikh immigrants during the 1950s had largely shed their Khalsa Identity and would largely encourage new Sikh immigrants upon arrival to have their haircut in order to assimilate and find work in Britain. Although not the only ones to do so, the Ramgharias had considerable impact in reserving this trend in maintaining their Dastaars and Kesh, aided by their British Based education and experience in East Africa, this was a time of subtle revival for the Sikhs, incidently around the same time that Harbhajan Singh Puri (aka Yogi Bhajan) found success with the Guru's message in the US. Dr Sangat Singh in "Sikhs in History" makes reference to these events as two turning points in the 1960/70's for the Sikh diaspora, who were at the time beginning to lag in terms of the Khalsa Maryada. Of course, this was further followed by the great work in Punjab of Baba Jarnail Singh Bindrawale... In the UK, Slough and Ilford being key examples in London, regular dialogue between the Singh Sabhas and Ramgharia Sabhas are common place and annual events such as the Vasakhi Jor Mela et al are collectively organised and managed as one. An aspect I am quite keen to explore is the links that both the Singh Sabha (historically in Punjab) and Ramgharias (through East Africa) had with the British. The impact of this, when critically viewed can be seen manifest in the organisation of both present day Sabhas and on an individual basis in terms of attitudes and outlook... (to be cont!) Gur Fateh to one and all!!!

Gur Fateh to ALL! Hari is correct in stating that RAMGHARIA is "NOT" a caste -it is one of the few surviving misls, unfortunately many in the Diaspora are too keen to label them as a caste (Tarkhans, Lohars or Mistries et al). Ramgharia derives from the RAM-GHAR killah (fortress), which in turn is taken from its original name of RAM RAUNI. So, let's look at what these terms actually mean in a simple manner:- RAM = God GHAR = House Hence, very simplistically, RAMGHARIA is one from the house of God, hence naming a Gurdwara as RAMGHARIA Sabha or Gurdwara etc, is not violating any Maryada besides there is no 'law' or maryada stipulating that we must name a Gurdwara after a Guru, as some were suggesting. This is a vast topic and certainly one very misunderstood, by so-called Ramgharias themselves! There are also many untruths and false accounts associated with the character of Jassa Singh Ramgharia, who was to all extents a puran Gur-Sikh of the Dal Khalsa Panth. Incidently, if one really does wish to feature caste in the debate, sure, the majority of the Ramgharia Misl did stem from 'artisan' professions, hence Tarkhans (Carpenters), Lohars (Metal Workers), Mistries (Masonaries) feature as the hereditary profession of many of the Misl, however one can also see common 'Ghotras' of 'Jat' and 'Khatri' origin, for instance Gill, Sahota and Suri, respectivley, feature within the present day descendents of the Ramgharia Misl. The reasoning for the artisan professional backgrounds stems from the role that the Misl had within the Dal as the main producer of Shasters, Armaments et al. The association with Tarkhans arose owing to Jassa Singh Ramgharia's family being of this background as were many other famous Sikhs descending from the Ramgharia Misl, for instance, Baba Raam Singh, Baba Nand Singh Ji and Baba Puran Singh. However one should note that the founder of the Misl was not a Tarkhan, but of Jatt background and also Jassa Singh Ramgharia, was a Fauji under the command of Shikar-e-Quam Jassa Singh Alhuwalia of the Alhuwalia Misl. There is much that can be discussed with regard to this Misl and its history and relevance as well as much that needs to be understood correctly to clarify the mistaken accounts of the Ramgharia Sardar, although this is a long story! Should any wish to discuss this further, please do feel free to continue this discussion, 'sensibly' and not let this fall into a political argument. I am still looking for further research and material on the Ramgharia Misl and that too of the Alhuwalia and Bhangi Misls, so welcome any support in this regard. Bir Ras de Naal...GUR BAR AKAAAAAAAAL!!!