Niranjana

Shaheediyan wrote: "All respect to those true Khalsa who give their time to help others indiscriminately, may Vaheguru bless them in their most sublime endeavours" I don't see where anyone is asking for "helping others" to be done on a discriminating basis, quite the opposite in fact. TonyHP: "Anyway I'm not sure that the Bangladesh thing is a good idea, the country will be underwater in a few years time anyway" A little unnecessary don't you think.

MKS, Please do not call me “Bhai Sahib” as I have not done anything to earn such a title and in a time where certain personality cults and spurious writers have destroyed many other titles lets try and retain some authentic ones for their genuine purposes. I believe Bahadur Ali refers to exoteric vs. esoteric traditions which is altogether different to what you are suggesting, which is: “The Almighty is an energy, and intelligent energy one which we have not discovered and one we never will” There are several issues I have with this suggestion and other similar pseudo-scientific notions that religious people like to put forth in frankly an absurd manner to support some notion in their scriptures or belief patterns. Mysticism does not need to be verified by Science, nor is there a need for a conflict between the two as the West largely have and continue to battle out. Fundamentally, if as you suggest “The Almighty is an energy”, why would we need to worship, pray, remember this ‘energy’, that seems little more than ancient man worshipping the Sun for its “energy”, hence providing further argument to the notion that religion is little more than superstition and quackery – surely this is not something you ascribe to? MKS, I am well aware of “string theory”, bottom line is only a theory and as you say, the famed “Big Bang” theory is now being challenged in scientific circles – which is precisely the point and my issue with Sikhs and other religious people looking to justify their beliefs through scientific means, pre-knowledge of String Theory, other Sikhs like you were positing the notion that Sikhi, unlike the Abrahamic faiths, doesn’t have a creationist myth, instead supports the notion of the Big Bang. Now that the Big Bang is being challenged, you (the next generation of the “sikhi is a scientific religion” camp) are seeking to find support for the “Multiverse” concepts being developed within science – bottom line, science, by its nature, is subject to being reinvented as new discoveries are made, religion on the other hand, claims to be ‘universal’ and ‘timeless’ truth, why then are we combing the two?!! So let’s leave String Theory to its correct field, which is scientific research and theory and not muddy religion with terms loosely borrowed from science such as “energy” and “power” (which incidently are quite precise in their use within their correct scientific context, unlike those who freely borrow them for pseudo scientific purposes) and seek to establish the flawed notion of Sikhi being a scientific religion where we keep our hair long because it is “natural” and somehow gives us “more oxygen” as middle-class Sikhs are frequently duped into believing by pseudo-scientific parcharaks. Back to the wider point, please clarify or provide some more thought as to the assertions concerning Guru Gobind Singh Maharaj and Shiv Bhagwan, clearly it is something that you hold dear and indeed upon which you base your understanding of exoteric (e.g. Nihang Bana) and esoteric aspects of your life as Sikh, so surely you have thought through the subject matter to live life in that way, please could you share your thoughts as it is quite a fascinating notion. Gur Fateh! N.

Karmjeet, I believe "prapti" is a word you can define more accurately than you have, please have a go and then let's discuss the notion of what you described as: "prapti of Vaheguru"

Malwe da Sher wrote; "at Rakba Jathedar was Baba Lehna Singh who was a Takhan by birth and was the Gurdev of Baba Joginder Singh. Baba Lehna Singh was very hutthi tuppi mahapursh, it is said he knew of all Sri Guru Granth Sahib Kanth. People have tried to imply Baba Joginder Singh is of the 'pro-jatt' group. This of course is a basless accusation as his highly revered ustad Akali Nihang Baba Lehna Singh was a tarkhan" Sardar Sahib, This is fine, Baba Santa Singh himself is non-Jatt, it means jack-all when one looks at the ground level. This argument is not too far from the classic AKJ/DDT pro-Tarna Dal arguments, since Baba Nihal Singh is a vegetarian, it is only natural that pro-AKJ and DDT websites sing his glories as the "true Nihang" and so on, but reality is Jhatka is practised in the Tarna Dal camps - however the pro-veggie lobby love to brush this under the carpet because "they haven't seen it happen" much like what Nihangs are doing with respect to their "caste" differentiated langar and amrit sanchars. Vijaydeep Singh can provide ample first hand accounts of people being asked their 'jaat' when entering the Buddha Dal amrit sanchar, so much so that even a Sikh of Brahmin origins was placed by the Nihangs into the Chautha Paur for the Amrit Sanchar (i.e. on account of him being a non-Jatt) - time will show that what has been happening covertly in other Sikh institutions, will happen openly in the Buddha Dal, i.e. Jatt supremacy. Tonyhp stated: "Fortunately the Singh Sabha Gurdwaras which are the legacy of the Singh Sabha might not be perfect but one would be hard put out find an overt display of caste discrimination such as the one you have ascribed to the Buddha Dal. The problems that the UK Nihangs face is that they like to portray the Buddha Dal as being the entity that has kept their rites and rituals pure whilst others have become angrejified. So if the Buddha Dal stance on caste is pointed out they would much rather ignore this glaring diversion from the Gurus teachings because if the Buddha Dal couldn't keep the Gurmat teaching on equality then what other teachings have been subverted in this 'pure' Khalsa?" This is precisely the point that needs to be discussed. I personally find Nihangs intriguing and like parts of their culture, whether or not I am one myself is irrelevant, however they need to be able to live up to their own assertions, namely: "What is false I will call false. Even though the people may try to silence me. I do not care for what anybody says. I will speak but the truth from my mouth" (Guru Gobind Singh, Treh Charittar No.266, Dasam Guru Durbar) and more importantly, as per their website, they accuse mainstream Sikhs of the following: "Yet the present day mainstream Sikh institutions are afraid of asking questions" Yet, given the content of many PMs I have received since writing on this thread, one's mind begins to wonder... Tony, you are quite right, whilst there are undoubtedly issues with Singh Sabha, Ramgarhia and Batra etc Gurdwaras, the bottom line is I have yet to come across an example where the institution itself has decreed that a person be singled out from something so fundamental as the Amrit Sanchar or being served Langar on the basis of their caste, despite two of these institutions openly declaring their management on the basis of caste biradari. It is common to find many non-sikhs partaking in the Langar in the Singh Sabha and Ramgarhia Sabha Gurdwaras in Southall and from frequent personal experience I have many non-Jatt and non-Tarkhan friends at both institutions who are involved in the preparation of Langar, yet the institution which claims itself to be the "true form of the Khalsa" and derides the mainstream Sikh population as an "Andrez" bastardisation, itself purports practices which frankly are totally uncompatible with Gur-Maryada, or maybe I and other mainstream Sikh hold too many "19th century bourgeoisie ideals". Chatanaga asked: "with the apparent discrimintaion against nonjatt has the ratio of jatt/nonjatt stayed the same, or has it shifted in balance of jatts , as more of the nonjatts are mre politically aware?" Sardar Jee, I would recommend you touch base with Vijaydeep Singh, he will be able to provide you with a first hand account.

w-bol wrote: "We should first improve the condition of our home and then look outside. The biharis and orissans that your uncle ji is helping , are immigrating to punjab and making punjab even more poor." This mindset is also common amongst many in the UK working class for whom "immigrants", particularly would-be immigrants like you are "making the UK poor" - I'll leave you to figure out the rest for yourself, if you can't then ask and we can discuss this racist attitude yours at length here in the open. tonyhp wrote: "As for Khalsa Aid, in my personal view they just duplicate work that other aid agencies are already doing. I would much rather donate to the Red Cross or any number of established charities than donate to Khalsa Aid." This is a valid statement. The Red Cross and other (secular) charities are more established and Khalsa Aid does seem to be duplicating efforts here, which makes me wonder to what extent are such "Sikh" charities (operating in non-Sikh causes) a reaction to say "Christian Aid"?

Maha-Kharag-Singh, Sadly I have no insights, only questions to seek better understanding of what you are saying, so here goes: 1. By "those who are worshipers of Shiva and/or Devi" are you referring to Tantrik Hindus or Kashmiri Shavites or Aghoris? Please clarify and outline their statements as to why they hold the view that you allude to them having told you. 2. Affiliation with the colour Blue, the Dastaar Bunga and Farla are Nihang paraphenalia, not that of Guru Gobind Singh (despite what the Nihangs like to suggest). Taking each in turn: Colour blue - ample discussion has been had on this forum and elsewhere showing that the adoption of this clothing by the Nihangs was the result of their taking employment under Mughal rulers. For further information, see the "Nihang Bible" Panth Parkash (Ratan Singh Bhangoo) and his account of Kahn Singh and contrast with the account of the Sikhs attacking Lahore wearing the Blue Muslim dress given by other famed Sanatan Sikh scholar Gyani Gyan Singh in his Naveen Panth Parkash. Dastaar Bunga & Farla - Gyani Gyan Singh in Naveen Panth Parkash indicates that the Dumalla style of dastaar was made popular by Bhai Naina Singh. There is no support to the notion that Guru Sahib ever wore such a turban, despite revisionist assertions of certain writers. Same is true of the Farla - also see 'Guru Keeyaan Saakheeyaan' which indicates that the Farla was drawn from the small blue turbans of Bhai Uday Singh, Himmat Singh, Sahib Singh, Mohkam Singh and Aalam Singh Ji. Bottom line, present day understanding of such items within Nihangs are perfectly valid, since all traditions develop over time, however this does not in itself validate them as authentic practices from the Gurus nor for the subject at hand explain why Guru Sahib would be the "Human Avtar of Rudra". So please explain what makes Guru Sahib qualify for such a suggestion. 3. You seem to describe Shakti as energy, however you then go on to describe what seems to be God (re: "omnipresent and is the cause for all lifes existent") and then move to describe "lower" shaktis, or "energies" as per your earlier definition (re: "many Advait Shaktis and...lowly Ridhi Sidhi Nivasini Shaktis). Please could you also explain the following: (a) If the "one main shakti" is God, what are these lower shaktis - Demi-Gods? ( If shakti is "energy", are you suggesting that God is simply energy? If so, what type of energy - kinetic, potential, thermal, electromagnetic, chemical, nuclear etc? Thanks, Niranjana.

Karmjeet, is that really the definition of "prapti"?

Chatanga Jee, Yes. Forget langar, at the Buddha Dal amrit sanchar, it is well known that Jatts are singled out to one side and all other castes to the other - so it is not simply caste discrimination on the basis of who is supposedly higher as per the Manu Simriti (since that would obviously relegate the Jatts to the bottom as well!), it is revised caste discrimination, i.e. Jatts have become the new Brahmins. Prior to the Amrit Sanchar, the Buddha Dal will ask all neophytes to split into two groups, one being the "Jimidars" and the others all who don't qualify as "Jimidars", i.e. all non-Jatts, included so-called higher caste Khatris and Brahmins. Amrit is distributed separately to both, such that the sharing of the Bata between non-Jatts and Jatts doesn't occur! I guess the demands of the Rajput Rajas (from whom many Jatts claim they descend) to have a separate amrit for them are coming true! The langar is kept separate for the "chauta paur" - we all hear stories of Gyani Ditt Singh's struggle against the Sanatan Singh Sabha and being refused prashad at the Harmandir Sahib for this supposed outcaste origins, yet not much has changed - the Buddha Dal, perhaps one of the most vocal groups concerning the supposed "Angrez Sikhi" claims against the Singh Sabha movement (which actually sought to remove such practices from Gurdwaras) are the foremost in maintaining this "sanatan" practice! The Buddha Nihangs will, like the Namdharis, actually create a separate "Pangat" (ironic as it maybe to use such a term in this context) for those of similar caste origins to Gyani Ditt Singh and segregate them entirely from the remainder of the Dal with a separately prepared langar. Just imagine... ...moreover, if that wasn't bad enough, should a Jatt have made a transgression in rehit or other similar conduct, as punishment for his transgression, he may be ordered to sit within the "Chautha Paur" langar, the implications of which speak for themselves! Sant Khalsa, Yes, there are UK Nihangs and N**GS, fine - but this matter concerns the Buddha Dal in India, the master of both factions. As described above, the reality is that the Buddha Dal is not shaping itself on the Indian Caste system, since that would give power to the Brahmins, but to a revised caste segregation which seeks to promote nothing but Jatt superiority.

Xylitol wrote: "according to sant-scholar Naranjan Singh ji, Sukhmani Sahib can be done in parts, but should all be completed within one day" 1. What is Naranjan Singh's reference for this assertion, not that its a bad thing, but implication here is that anyone doing the paath over a period exceeding 24 hours is breaking some supposed rule - where is this rule laid down? 2. What qualifies Narajan Singh as a "sant-scholar"

Xylitol wrote: "sgpc maryada isn't true rahit. you're better off looking to the sampradas for the accurate answer" First of all, there is no such thing as "SGPC maryada" - there is the "Sikh Rehit Maryada" to which the SGPC and the Sikh Panth aligns itself, the notion that this is a SGPC maryada boils down to a reality which is frequently ignored. I shall elaborate below: 1. The Sampradhas have their own rehits, which if the Sampradhas are "true" as those of your convinction believe, why do they disagree in themselves and not have a unified code? 2. The underlying reality is that this talk of "SGPC maryada" is akin to similar references to say "Nihang Maryada", "DDT Maryada", "AKJ Maryada" etc, the latter are all Sampradhas and Jathas, the SGPC is neither and nor does it pretend to be, it is simply a Management committee. 3. The issue therefore, being that the Sampradhas like to make out that the SGPC is some form of bastardised Sampradha and then attack the Sikh Rehit Maryada in the process, why? Because they are concerned about gursikhi - yeah, that's what all the 2nd generation Singhs in the west like to think, because that's what they are taught...but the reality is little more than a power struggle to wrestle control of the Akal Thakt and have access to funds.

"main goal is the prapti of Waheguru" Please could you define "Prapti" and how one does "Prapti" of Vaheguru?

"Advice for next time you have conflicting appointments, learn to be organised and arrange for someone to cover your seva before hand and then go and enjoy your other activity stress/guilt free. A Sikh is nothing if he can't keep his word/promise/adherence to responsibility." Shaheediyan, good response and advice.

Whatever Vijaydeep or anyone else has to say, why can't the UK Nihangs and their super "intellectual" theories explain clearly why caste discrimination occurs in the Buddha Dal Amrit Sanchar. These same people, and other non-Nihang supporters of the Buddha Dal (such as DDT etc) make a big issue out of Gurdwaras in the UK bearing caste identity, however the bottom line is, I can walk into a Singh Sabha, Ramgarhia, Ravidasi or Batra Gurdwara and still be allowed to participate in Kirtan, Langar and all items - it's only the management which is peculiar to certain caste groups, however the Buddha Dal will ask me outright, if I am a Jimidar (Jatt) and should I respond in the negative, regardless of my caste being higher (say Khatri or Brahmin) or lower, they will place me in the "Chautha Paur" when it comes to Langar, let alone the Amrit Sanchar, proof in itself that the Buddha Dal is simply interested in propagating the Jatt caste, regardless of its leadership being in the hands of supposed non-Jatts (FYI, I am not supporting caste-Gurdwara, so please do not deviate off topic here, it is used only to highlight the issue). I have asked this question before, yet no Nihang seems to want to exercise their brawn or brains to answer the question - please address this, oh true form of the Khalsa, the 96 Crore Chalda Vaheer, Guru Maharaj ki Ladli Fauj.

Maha Kharag Singh, please explain your assertion of "rudra shakti" and with it give us an explanation of what "shakti" means and what the different types of "shakti" are. Thanks.

...oh, I forgot, they can do all this, because they are vegetarians and their women wear keskis!

It is little more than humbug superstition, just like folk remedies, auyrveda, crystals, numerology, reflexology etc etc... ...but wait, we can't admit to that, since those super duper 3HO Singhs and Singhnis, who as we know "are better Sikhs than the Punjabis" and "don't have Punjabi hang-ups"...they all believe in this and have made $1bln businesses out of such tripe...sorry, I mean they have "spread Sikhi" through this medium... ...whoops did I really say that! OMG! How awful of me!

The paths you outline in summary boil down to either Karam Marg, Bhakti Marg or Gyan Marg. The bottom line is that ultimately one is looking for "Gyan" whatever of the three margs they choose to adopt.

Neo - please expand and explain.

The late Chandrashekhara Bharati Swaminah has stated: "Fate is past karma, free-will is present karma. Both are really one, that is, karma, though they may differ in the matter of time. There can be no conflict when they are really one".

The Dasam Granth makes reference to Guru Sahib's own birth and coming into the world on the hukam of Akal Purakh. Whether this relates to a physical previous birth or not is another question. It in no way implies that he was Dhust Daman, which is a story fabricated using the account given in the Bachittr Natak as its inspiration. Bottom line is Guru Sahib does not refer to himself as Rishi Dhust Daman at any place. As per the myterious Yogi - some more information would be nice, otherwise it is simply a case of chinese whispers - I heard from so and so, who knows a certain so and so, who is a great soul blah blah blah, that x Y z happened, hardly a great source is it now, and please save me the "certain things are only know as gupt" malarky.

Why bother Guru Jee for something so trivial! I find such the performance of such 'Ardas' (for forgiveness, for protection, for assistance etc) a little strange since as Sikhs keeping the minimum 5 bani rehit, all such things are repeatedly requested and sought and summarised in the standard wording of the Ardas. As Xylitol suggests, cram as hard as you (and keep up your standard rehit - that in itself should cover all such eventualities).

amardeep - have a look at the Louis E Fenech article on Matrydom in the Sikh Tradition (I've pasted it here before), which shows certain texts referring to the Gurus - be warned, you may not like what you read.

Maybe so, however Durga Devi is also not the Advait Brahman that the Upanishads or the Sri Guru Granth Sahib speaks of, so this line of thinking is not going to lead anywhere, since we can drill it down to you and me being aspects of the Divine, we just have 'realised' it as yet!

The story of Dhust Daman does not appear in either the Sri Guru Granth Sahib or the Sri Dasam Granth Sahib (contrary to what the anti-Dasam Granth lobby like to say, which incidently is another why the majority of them are plain morons, as they clearly haven't read the text in question!) The main source of the Dhust Daman fable is the Sau Sakhi, which is an extremely difficult text to work with by any stretch of the imagination. Those who believe the Dhust Daman was Guru Gobind Singh in his prior life, please provide tangible evidence to that effect.

Matheen wrote; "Mata Ji is very highly revered - what higher title can there be than "Mother of the Khalsa"?" For all extents and purposes, this has to be the bottom line.