Niranjana

So what are the forum's views on the Gyanratnavali and the implications for Shia-Sikh issues which have become so fascinating of late?

Yes, Sukhmani Sahib does clarify what a Sant is and who can identify a Sant and what truly constitutes "Sant ki Seva", however if one was to assess many who are today attributed the title Sant, including several popular personalities, the qualifications as set down by Sukhmani Sahib are far from being met. Likewise, what Sukhmani Sahib regards as "Sant ki Seva" is different from what one evidences by most who undertake under this act.

Trust everyone had a good Deepavali.

Chatanga wrote: deh shiva is Guru describing the power of God, ie sword aka Chandi. This at the end of the Chandi Charitar which describes the power of God Chandi against evil ie rakshas. at the end Guru Says Please Chandi(shiva) aka sword/God give me this boon... For many moons i couldnt make out why Guru Ji wrote Shiva, until I read about Shiv Ji nad found that Shiv Ji actually accorded the status of Shiva to Parbati who was an incarnation of Chandi. tis quite complicated, and dumbasses make a lot of mileage out of this, including my Sikh friend who used this line to "prove" that Sikhs were part of the Hindu religion. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Most Scholars concur that the closing stanza of Chandi Charitr is Guru Jee’s own wording as an addition independent of the foregoing ‘translated’ work in the composition describing the deeds of the Goddess Durga. The reference to “siva†(and not Shiva) in “Deh Siva…†is clearly a reference to Durga alone. Many people have problems with this, either using this as a means of disputing this composition as Sri Mukhvak Gurbani or as your friend suggests arguing that we are part of a Hindu Tantrik tradition or as you do, cover it up by asserting, in the face of literary evidence otherwise, that “Siva†somehow refers to Akal Purakh. It would appear to be clear that the phrase “Deh Siva†refers to the Devi Durga alone and this is in no way counter to the principles of Sikhism as some consider it to be. Durga Devi is a respected figure in the Indic tradition and the shabd “Deh Siva†is no different to say touching the feet of one’s elders for a blessing/mark of respect, which in no way implies that we are worshipping our elders and the same would appear to be true here.

I believe it is acceptable for karamat to be used, examples are found in Bani and in the lives of ourGurus and sants. But i'm not sure exactly when it's ok to use. and a possible defintion of karamat - a display of power that seems unnatural to the mind of those who have no experience with riddh siddh or spiritual miracles etc. ?? For example, the Guru refused to display powers to appease Jehangir. yet, Mecca turned around to face the Guru. Similarly, a mandir physically turned around to face God's Bhagat. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Xylitol, Gurbani certainly does point towards the existence of Saints and that the world is sustained by their presence. That said, your comments concerning pain being a necessary part of the world is also alluded to in Gurbani, however the question was asked earlier since people are suggesting on one hand that pain (and issues such as World Hunger) are Hukam yet simultaneously defend 'miracles' attributed to their favourite Sant as permissable despite these going against Hukam, because they "help people", if this is the case, would it not be a greater good to end World hunger than to be perform some other seemingly trivial miracle? The account of Mecca turning around the Gurus feet is not actually found in any Sikh text - the attriuting of miracles to our Gurus and Sikh figures appears to be an interesting innovation along the lines of other religious traditions.

The links below are some which touch on the issues highlighted above and elsewhere are discussions on the same topics by Shia muslims themselves. Mutah experiences/questions http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=234930611 http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=234934228 http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=234930726 http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=234931808 Divorce http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=234933228 http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=234935110 http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=234934810 Marriage age, polygamy etc http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=234935232 http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=234932383 http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=63967

w-bol's fundamental issue here appears to be with the implementation of Sharia law and its implications. The link below is a discussion by Shia Muslims concerning Islamic law compared to more secular arrangements: http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=234934802

w-bol, Please grow up and be a man. This is a discussion forum, that means we discuss matters, opinions, propose/defend arguments, if you want to ‘feel the love’ then pm someone to have a nice chit-chat or get together to sing kirtan/do paath. You come here, insinuate all sorts of underhand comments and now when challenged cry that people are being “rude with no manner(s) and no humilityâ€, where have your manners and humility been when you bring about absurd stories concerning a girl being gang raped and forced to eat excrement making the news of dying women being urinated upon being “not as sickâ€, do you even realise the folly of some of the things you say! You take objection at the “better than others†attitude that you have been critiqued with, yet still seek to take the moral high ground in your closing statement challenging others on their maintenance of Amritvela and Nitnem! Sikhi is not falling apart because people here are happy to have their views or opinions challenged or critiqued! People’s opinions or views are not sacred, only Gurbani is and to date no one is challenging Gurbani, unlike other forums where the sanctity of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib even is challenged and the validity of the Sri Dasam Granth disputed. Getting over emotional does not to validate your points! Gur Fateh! Niranjana.

Randhawa, Please bring on an accurate history (preferably free of fairy tale dimensions) about Baba Jee to correct people's misapprehensions. Thanks, Niranjana.

Keep up the efforts.

Matheen, That is an interesting account that you presented, however it doesn't really add anything material to the discussion at hand, which really seeks to address the statement of w-bol concerning Gurbani being food and water enough (in a physical sense) for a Sikh. The following issues have arisen from this discussion as a result: (1) All examples of Gurbani provided on this thread would appear to point towards 'internal hunger' (i.e. desires etc), akin to the Shabad by Guru Amar Das ("antar trishna margayee"), however are being interpreted here in literally as physical hunger under the guise of 'faith'. (2) This leads into the topic of "karamat" where it appears people are divided upon in terms of what constitutes 'karamat' and when or if ever it should be used. If it is to be used for the betterment of people or society, as some have suggested, then what about serious issues such as world hunger amongst other similar matters?

Xylitol asked "but don't you feel the example of baba harnam singh ji actually shows this gurbani tuk's practical effect? that it's an example showing people the bani is true?" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In your earlier post you stated the following: "in baba harnam singh ji rampur khera's jeevan sakhi, we have an incident narrated where baba ji didn't eat or drink anything for a long period of time, if memory serves it was either one month or 40 days. he was sealed in a cave, when he came out he had not lost even one pound of weight. he had done this to test a shabd that claimed Gurbani was food and water." With due respect, who is the author of this sakhi? What do we know of their credentials and in what context was the above account relayed?

w-bol, you are confusing the concept of Sat Guru as defined in Sikhi with the word Guru which is a term available for any teacher (my music teacher is my Guru and I refer to him as Guru Jee, this in no way implies that I am placing him equally or higher than the Sri Guru Granth Sahib). Please try getting off your "I'm a Sikh, so I'm the best" high horse and actually read up on the words/quotes/references you keep using.

However in my opnion both interpretations are correct. Gurbani cannot be bound to only one interpertations especially when there is three context how gurbani is interpertated - 1) vikharayan 2) Uthanka 3) Adhyatamic arths. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't believe we are seeking to confine Gurbani in anyway, however by the same token, I do have an issue with the practice of 1001 different arths of a single line of Gurbani (which appears in many cases to be little more than aping the habits of Pandits from yesteryears) just as I do with the Prof Sahib Singh "1 line 1 meaning" analysis. That aside, the question still stands, the type of commentary made here on this thread is not too different from what one gets to hear in Gurdwaras, where every parcharak likes to focus on "magical" stories concerning the Gurus and the Singhs of old, which frankly reduces the subject matter to fairy tales in most cases.

Out of interest, if "mool" refers to basic, then why have a "bij" (seed) mantra? What scholars or saints may have to say about the subject is one thing, although the very fact that there remains an element of disagreement within the Panth at large. Does Gurbani advocate a mool mantra (I am aware of references to Bij mantras) or is this whole discussion inspired by discussions with other sects who have elaborate strings of mantras to which Sikhs have adopted some form of response?

Thithai uvavh Na Bhuk Hai, Mann Charya Dasamaie Akash || When mind(surati) resides in dasam dvar there is no hunger there. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neo, Is the reference to "hunger" (bhuk) in the above quote refer to physical hunger or in its possible more appropriate context hunger within the mind (desires)?

Namdharis impart Naam via the initiator whispering the Gurmantr into the novice's ear - method which has subsequently been adopted in part by the AKJ. Interestingly, there are other aspects which the AKJ uphold as their 'maryada' which bear strong resemblances to Namdhari practices such as daily washing of Kesh, vegetarianism, sodh ishnaan amongst others. Fateh Singh can give full "facts" concerning the exact Namdhari practice of imparting Naam.

Thanks Xylitol. As a side note, I would argue that the above translation has many issues with it, for instance: lakh akaash pathaal lakh akh furak vich sabh dhikhalaaee|| And in a wink of eye visualized him the upper and lower worlds. The English translation incorrectly translates Akaash Pathaal as ‘upper and lower worlds’. Punjabi sateeks however translate Akaash as sky and Pathaal as earth.

Niranjana, Yes masturbation or infact indulging in any negative anti-gurmat thing will attract negative astral spirits or entities to you. Someone who has done enough meditation can actually see this happening in the astral realm. A person who doesnt have enough spiritual wealth will not be able to see this happening, but a person who can go deep into meditation can see the negative effects of masturbation and sexual thoughts. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- W-bol, Again, you keep avoiding the question with your constant fixation on masturbating. For the record, I am NOT (repeat NOT) arguing for the pro-masturbation camp if that helps alleviate your repetitive hammering on that point. You don't need to convince me on this item as it frankly a subject that in my opinion does not need to be discussed, focusing as best one can on simran abhyas and gurbani viakhia, non-issues like whether a 14 year old boy is going to play with himself when Mummy and Daddy aren't home will sort themselves out easily enough. This obession with discussion whether 'cracking one off' is sin or not is the real 'Western Cultural' obsession, hence why Indic traditions don't waste time discussing this type of nonsense. What I am asking you to expand on what these "negative astral spirits or entities" are? You make us of such grand references without even an iota of qualifying what you are refering to or what you mean. Please kindly state what these "negative astral spirits or entities" are, or at least provide some references by which to look into the subject. Otherwise, your assertion amounts to little more than pseudo-spiritual mumbo-jumbo. Thanks, Niranjana.

Niranjana, its very simple. Masturbate and then try to meditate at Amrit Vela, try to go deep in meditation and you will know how masturbation affects the human mind n a negative way. i dont claim myself to be perfect brahmacharya or celibate... masturbation destroys all the spiritual practice u did.... its a devastation at a nuclear scale. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- w-bol, I have no need or desire to Masterbate at Amritvela - you weirdo!!! I asked you a simple question, here it is again: "Please expand on what "negative entities/spirits" you refer to, this would be interesting to understand. You seem like you're an educated man, so I would be grateful for a fairly comprehensive answer as this is something I personally do not understand." Now kindly answer the question (i.e. what are these 'negative entities/spirits' you refer to) and kindly refrain from absurd responses like asking me to have a wank in the ambrosial hours of the morning. Similarly, I am not concerned with you being or not being a "perfect brahmacharya or celibate", that is none of my business, but you made a statement which I would like to understand as alluded to above, please keep your answer relevant.

Xylitol, please could you post up the exact Var from which the above episode is relayed (in Gurmukhi/or Transliteration and English Translation).

What exactly within Bhai Gurdas Ji's Varan would you constitute as an act of "Karamat"? Yes, I am familiar with Suraj Prakash and Janam Sakhis, however that doesn't mean I subscribe to their each and every view.

Niranjana, there are plenty of examples of the Gurus performing miracles. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Please could you provide some.

I suspect your reason for asking this question is to ask W-bol why anyone needs to do anything at all. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Something to that effect, would be interesting to hear what he has to say. As per the above mentioned Sants using what is now being described as "Karamat" to "test Gurbani" or "meet the wishes of the Sangat", what exactly provided them with the due sanction to perform "Kaamat" when even the Gurus as you have pointed out never did so, even at the consequence of being beheaded. But, like you say, this is another question for another topic...w-bol, I believe your answer has been covered by TSingh.

Gurbani can make the dead alive , sustain the Sikh without food and water...so obviously Gurbani, Naam Simran is higher. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Why do Sikhs, including those who are regarded by many here and elsewhere to be "brahmgyanis" or having "high avasthas" etc (I won't ask that we discuss right now what qualifies those who dish out such titles to actually award the said inviduals with such merits, but that would be an interesting discussion) still eat food and drink water and ultimately die?