Lucky

Yes, i do find it ironic! I think that there would be No creation without Consciousness. This is the driving force behind all that exists outside advait boundary of Nirankar. Goal is to go back to Advait Nirankaar by going backwards in cycle. ie. dissolve consciousness ->>>into -->Atma-->>into-->>>Paramatma

On this topic, the only way to understand it is get back to scratch on the drawing board. From there, learn what the 5 element are, what they mean what the significance is for FIRE, with regards to creation, sustenance, destruction . When you understand this, then you will understand the significance of all the different rituals for different faiths. Hopefully, you may understand wht the "real' significance and purpose in spiritual development "havan" is or not.

Welcome, It will be interesting to have you on here. I do have some knowledge in the faiths you mention and I've always been fascinated with the parallels that exist for the esoteric meanings in all of them. Look forward to some discussions.

welcome to the forum I like the above, I will add "Don't concentrate on the finger, or you will miss all the heavenly glory!" see if you get it?

I've not listened to the video , but The shepherd and his staff have very sacred meanings. The "good shepherd" is an allegory to Jesus(avtar of God) and to God himself. The flock of sheep, the pastures are connected to what we call "sangat" Nothing demeaning about using shepherd figuration for guru, but the above translation is demeaning.

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That's good understanding,, but we have to keep an open mind and some of these vichaars have depths beyond our reach. I have tried to keep it simplistic and this is mostly my own understanding and interpretation. All errors are mine and i stand corrected. It's a deep question, but as you mention, chetan dissolves completely into atma at brahmgyan avastha. You can tell that Babaji has a deep and profound understanding of this and it's difficult to put in words for common man. He's answered a question using chosen words that cover a lot of scope and I'm certain that he could talk for hours about this topic alone. He’s also given some subtle hints that should be thought provoking depending on seeker’s intellect. I do have a hell of a lot to say about atma and chetan/chit,(consciousness), but it’s really recognized through effort and experience. For now, I’ll briefly share a few points in line with what Babaji said, and you may realise why I really admired his words. For arguments sake, lets stick with the terms - Atma=Soul, Paramatma= Supreme single soul/nirankar Chit/Chetun=Consciousness. To recognise and differentiate between them, is fundamental for realisation; in my opinion. Imagine the universe at a moment before creation. Gurbani tells us that only he was present, and he was within himself. “Sargun Nirgun Nirankar sunn samadhi aap - apan keea Nanaka aapey hi phir jaap”. Visualise this for a second to picture the creation happening after this moment. That moment was the “ONG” or the big-bang. Remember the meaning of IK-ONG-KAR. Ik= singularity of one before creation. Then came the “ONG” shabad sound, followed by the “KAR”(creation). The doer(IK) did the creation(KAR) with the Ong Gurbani says “sunn samadhi aap” he was in primal samadhi in the void within himself. This “within himself” in sunn samadhi is crucial because when referring to that moment before creation; nothing had been created yet. At that point, it was just ‘IK’ It may help if you imagine a still, single point as IK. The big bang theory even calls this the 'moment of singularity'. It is at this stage, when there were no manifestation of Sargun or Nirgun, but it was just Nirankar himself. (No akaar =Nirankar, whereas Sargun & nirgun are akaar) Bearing this in mind, it can help understand why two terms translated as formless (nirgun and nirankar) are used. Nirgun, refers to ‘after creation’ meaning = without form, without attributes etc. Nirankar refers to that singularity, the IK himself before any creation, before any akaar. Now, when we bring in Atma and Chetan, it can help understand where they fit in. The topic itself is huge because it brings in everything like manmat, gurmat, brahmagyan, turiya avastha and much more of gurbani from comprehending this Ik-ong-kar alone along Nirankar (without akaar or consciousness) When IK is by itself, just before moment of ong-kar, then we could also say that the almighty single soul/atma is Paramatma. It may be helpful to visualise a light(jyot) that is akin to a singularity point or dot… imagine this jyot as not radiating and not yet emitting light to the surroundings. It’s that trillionth of a second from when you turn the light switch on in a dark room, to when the room lights up. The moment when the bulb filament has just ignited and the luminosity is still within the bulb and not expanded out into the room. In this trillionth of a sec, the MOTION is not in play yet…This motion that I’m referring to is what came into play from the IK. This is the Consciousness. It is the Chetan or Chit within, and around us. As the jyot or Ik, begins to radiate outwards and expand, we could say that it’s all executed via an increasing flux of Chetan/Consciousness. The expanding universe and worlds were created in this instant. We also know, that he is STILL creating because science tells us the universe is still expanding. The “kar” is done but is also continuing to be created. Q) What happened at the moment of Ong-kar/creation and what changed about God? A) Initially, God was in a primal nothingness void and in deep samadhi within himself. There was no creation yet. Whereas after, he became God the creator, and he is now the creator and creation itself. Gurbani refers to this attribute as “Gobind” ( lord of the universe) According to old texts and to my understanding, this moment of creation when consciousness came into play, is when duality was created. Prior to this, there were no duality except atam/paramatma. -The Ik was singular, ..Advait(non-dual)..........Atam, Paramatam was singular..........-no motion or time in play. This is the Shiv-shakti, with the shakti being the consciousness. Babaji mentions this in the recording and refers to Chetan as the shakti which is everywhere and comes from Paramatma. He gave the analogy of the electrical items like bulb, heater etc that won’t work or become active unless the shakti of electric flow is present. In the same manner, consciousness is active in the whole of existence. You may be aware that for some years now, quantum physics has determined that the whole universe is very much alive with this “consciousness”. It’s also important to understand that consciousness/chetan is dualistic. When this consciousness came into existence; it started to emanate and expand outwards from Paramatma. This is when duality also became a reality. In summary, … *very original point of IK, or that non-emitting jyot is Paramatma,... this is also NIRANKAR (without consciousness and without akar) NOTE- GOD"S consciousness was all within himself and not in creation *The enormous flux of energy/shakti that has radiated and expanded out from it, is the Consciousness/Chetan. May also try and picture as if trillions of photons/light particles emanating outwards, are “atma’s” coming from Paramatma. In Babaji’s recording where he gave the analogy of the electric current akin to Chetan/consciousness, he said the Chetan is a shakti flowing around and within us. Just like electrical items and appliances, our indries(senses and motor functions), are all controlled and functioning under the Chetan/Consiocusness. Even the involuntary organs function through the same consciousness via subtle energies/prana. The Consciousness stems from the atma that we have inside us. Babaji gave analogy of root and stem. Just like the mind, we can merge the consciousness into the atma/paramatma. He gave example of Bhai Mani Singh and how he directed his Chetan away from all indiries and sareer, and channeled it into the atam. All that remained was the atam in it’s purest state This is the inner yoga, where one “jog’s”(joins) the consciousness into the soul.

It's a deep question, but as you mention, chetan dissolves completely into atma at brahmgyan avastha. You can tell that Babaji has a deep and profound understanding of this and it's difficult to put in words for common man. He's answered a question using chosen words that cover a lot of scope and I'm certain that he could talk for hours about this topic alone. There are some subtle hints that can be thought provoking with regards to seeker's intellect. I do have a hell of a lot to say about atma and chetan/chit,(consciousness), but this is really recognized through effort and experience. I will share a few brief points in line with what Babaji said in a day or two. I can't write everything but can give some pointers and explanations according to my own ideas. These may help you realise why I admired the answers Babaji had given.

Yes Das, that is the most correct and direct answer to whether one should meditate as per some formality or not. My answer was approached from a different angle and I kinda misunderstood; assuming Shivam ji was asking to mix meditation paths. Sorry Shivam ji, if i confused you further!. @Shivam Kumar If a voice inside you is telling you to jap and meditate, then you should follow your heart and listen to this voice. Never mind, the red tape of naam daan age or questioning the radhasoami upbringing you may be accustomed to. If it's part of your family and a physical access to something sacred, then you should keep it that way. Waiting until 25 yrs age, doesn't mean you can't be walking the path of God. Like Harsharan ji stated, "Naam daan is a ceremonial technique introduction" You will still be able to earn the "treasure of naam" (kamayee) every time you meditate. If you are hearing the ringing like sound and something you describe like rain, then I know you are going the right way and God is accepting all your efforts.If you continue, ther will be more to come and just by prem alone, you can be blessed with the Lord's darshan.

Quite simply, yes. It is shabad di daat. You just made me realise something.

Yes, hanji....you started off saying............. In response to this, i kindly explained.. Maybe a misunderstanding? no problem, perfectly normal

Don't get the wrong end of the stick here. Ego is always there. Haumai is something that gives identity and makes you, you and me, me. It is the "I" in us and continues to use the mind as it's slave until we can subdue it. Doing x amount of japs and x amount of hours is highly recommended. However, you have to understand that the "intentions" need to be as per "satch" and you don't wanna be busting your backside or sweating it out trying to reach your numbers. Doing x amount of japs or x amount of hours is highly recommended. However, it has to be done with prem and not just for the completion. There's been days when I've done 16-18 hours of deep simran. None of these were to beat my own world record or anything, but they happened because I were so absorbed and magnetised in the love. It took much effort to make myself stop as I just couldn't get enough. No limits, no sense of time, no sense of body, just him, doing jap on himself. A few people ask "how does this prem come?" I really don't know how because you can't force yourself to love something. My only conclusion is that it's being prepared to give all and sacrifice your mind and body without any condition whatsoever. Just tu hi tu and tera hi tera

Welcome back, and you got it! I have a huge problem trying to explain this to people because they can't seem to grasp it. You have to "surrender" and leave ego behind. No questions, no what if's, no what is this or what was that? ... Just devote and give in to the jaap with NO INTENTIONS or CONDITIONS. The only pre-condition must be that I wanna see and be with my maker.. Just like bhagat dhanna. He could have sat in front of anything you gave him and would have still seen his malik because his intention was completely pure and there wasn't an ounce of mayavee condition. I have had countless gursikhs saying I can't progress, I've taken amrit, do nitnem, do sukhmani, do hour of simran...but still feel stuck. When I ask them what their real intentions are ie. what is the ardas? do they do it just for sukh shanti and peaceful bliss? ...is it for success? , riches, happy relationships, happy marriages?? The answer is always yes. Then I tell them that they are doing a sodhha based on conditions and they need to look within. You can't get enlightened with pre-conditions of maya. Our ardas is not an introductory prelude for a list of wants and wishes to add on at the end; sadly this is what we make it. I know of one guy who started seeing the brahm jyot and reaching heights of advanced experiences; simply by sitting down with complete surrender and love in the heart. He used a part visualisation that I mentioned a long time ago to imagine his consciousness shrinking into a small dot and completely letting go of his body. He amended it slightly to putting this dot of awareness directly into the heart chakra area in centre of chest and doing jap with heart beat. No conditions, no wants, no ardas list, except asking forgiveness for wrongs and surrendering of mann into-> the heart/Atma.

You need to refer to radhasoami camp for advice. I don't recommend you do your own pic n mix with guidance. What we try to discuss/advise on here, is as per gurmat. This gurmat is what we understand and interpret to the best of our knowledge. The major difference between gurmat and other schools like radhasoami is that they don't focus on "dhun". Dhun's origin is at the navel and we go upwards from there via heart/hirda chakra. If you don't do hirda stimulation/activation, then your pyaar is not parpatt or pakha. Guru Nanak ji showed us the beauty of "sift salah" and singing the gunn and bhajans of Nirankar. This is why kirtan has a huge role in sikhi. One can reach extreme heights thru love and heart meditation via kirtan praising alone. Radhasoami's don't follow this method and believe that they should start above the throat chakras. Whether this works or not, is not my concern, but it doesn't make sense to me. Also, gurmat doesn't have "naam daan" you mention. You have too keep your legs in one boat. If you try and cross the river with one leg in one boat and the other in an adjacent boat, soon enough, the boats will diverge away and no longer be flowing parallel. You will just sink in the middle because legs will be spread too far apart to get back in any boat.

KAMAYEE is never lost. It remains on your Atma blueprint for hundreds-thousands years of past lifetimes. It is the ONLY thng you take with you, The Naam Khajhaana that bani refers to, only stores Naam kamayee. Naam is the TRUTH and the the truth can never fade away or be wiped.

Gurbani says "janam janam ke kilbikh lathe" ..from countless janams and births,.. the paaps, sins and karams can all be washed away with this one-pointed "No intentions" practice and approach. Not always the case. There are various scenarios, but most commonly, if the person doing the jap has a consciousness vibrating at much lower levels than recipient, then they would be more susceptible to suffering the mirror/reverse effect. It also depends a great deal on what the intentions and directions of divine healing are being put forward by the doer. I do my own spiritual healing and have gained much better understanding of how God works in the mysterious ways of maya.

Very good and very deep. Understanding the concept and differentiation between Atma & Chetun and other deep questions are answered very well. I've had the utmost respect for babaji from an older recording where he answered many questions at incomparable depths; much to my liking. I've listen to it twice now, very slowly, and stopping after each question for a good while to contemplate within myself. Thumbs up here!

Excellent. Nice to see someone that makes you feel proud and worthy.

One of the most accurate explanations of western women. It pretty much nails the difference in behavior and psyche

I think that's a good joke; if it was meant to be? ... So, lets discuss Socrates because he quoted "Strong minds discuss ideas, Average minds discuss events, Weak minds discuss people." We could also discuss the disappointment you have with Socrates for stating this! "weak minds discuss people" is too broad of a quote to make really. My concern and correction is; yes, doing chugliyaan and nindiya is very weak minded. This is ONLY if one does the chugleee/talking with some degree of negative intention; which is directed towards a person who may no be there to defend themself. However, i don't feel there is anything weak about discussing someone's actions which are being perceived negatively by the majority. In this case Dhadrianwala's intentions are coming across as negative and harmful to the sikh public in general.

More so. Lots of stories and tales from mahapurkhs have the core messages mistranslated and distorted over time. The listener receives the superficial understanding most of the time and has little idea if the gurmat message. Classic examples like the Ajamal and narayan story give incorrect messages that Ajamal simply uttered "narayan" without any dhyian on akaal purakh and was given a second chance on his near death experience.

FIrst, there are many nishanees that gurbani mentions of WHEN you are out of lakh chaurasi. That is just one stage, it means mukhti from joons. Then there is the complete mukhti, which is when you are merged in Nirankar as if "absolute" -> completely dissolved.

Good idea. Yes please

This is because your flow of prana is imbalanced and getting obstructed in places. In order to understand this, you have to realise that there is 1) Your physical body and 2) your subtle body (sukham) . In order to be enlightened, these have to be in harmony and in sync. That's why, your body is your temple. Whenever the energy accumulations in your sukham sareer get too vast, then they have to transform directly into your physical body. This is why emotions, feelings and states of mind all affect our physical body. Feeling shitty, depressed, stressed leads to popular symptoms of many physical ailments etc. I've repeatedly stressed in the past that it's important to maintain good posture and be seated upright when doing jap. This allows prana to flow more freely. Also note, that Yoga means to jog, which means to join/merge. True yoga is about the science behind joining your Sukham and physical sareer and to keep them vibrating at equal frequencies. First step is to jog your physical and subtle, your miri and piri, your inner and outer. After this, one can move further in order to jog self-jyot Waheguru jyot. It's all about how you abolish levels of duality and become more pure in order to merge with Akaal Purakh (joti jot milaayai) In my opinion, what you need to do and get stronger with is... focus on prana flowing with saas by doing the saas graas/saas saas techniques with slight navel pull in and out. Done properly, this should pave the path of flow without sudden obstructions and eruptions. Activate and keep all energy flowing upwards from navel.