Pheena Posted January 9, 2008 Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 If a Man who is a very good swimmer, meaning he has been swimming his entire life. He then Jumps in a pool of water in 'ideal' conditions. He is in perfect health, but wishes to kill himself by drowning. Would he be able to kill himself by drowning or would his instinctual swimming/need to survive save him? Please explain your answer. If your answer is Yes, then replace Man with your Ego. Can you the observer kill your own ego? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niranjana Posted January 9, 2008 Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 Pheena, You should write a Koan book... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mekhane'ch Jannat Posted January 9, 2008 Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 The 'man' cannot override his 'instinct' to swim. The initial observation is that the observer wishing to kill the ego is a desire of the ego, yet another member of the legion that makes up the 'ego'. Man must always swim because that is his job, otherwise he would not get to pass the baton on to other swimmers, who carry on the job of swimming through the milky ocean of creation upon whom vishnu sits. The man liberated in the world cannot drown otherwise he cannot fulfill his worldly obligations. THere must be knowledge of the ego of what type of stroke the man uses etc. in other words man must become an expert swimmer so he glides through the water with minimum friction, he doesn't thrash about and cause discordance and chaos he causes minimum disturbance to the water. The role of the observer is not to kill the ego, but to perfectly control it. to add to the ego all the virtues that are close to god. and destroy the negative attributes, that make his swimming unsightly. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 10, 2008 Report Share Posted January 10, 2008 Would he be able to kill himself by drowning or would his instinctual swimming/need to survive save him? I think he will not be able to kill himself because as you said his instinctual swimming skills in grained in him. Its takes marjiva banda to do this, despite of all his instinct of survival he/she is willing give up his/her life for greater cause. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 10, 2008 Report Share Posted January 10, 2008 The 'man' cannot override his 'instinct' to swim. The initial observation is that the observer wishing to kill the ego is a desire of the ego, yet another member of the legion that makes up the 'ego'. Man must always swim because that is his job, otherwise he would not get to pass the baton on to other swimmers, who carry on the job of swimming through the milky ocean of creation upon whom vishnu sits. The man liberated in the world cannot drown otherwise he cannot fulfill his worldly obligations. THere must be knowledge of the ego of what type of stroke the man uses etc. in other words man must become an expert swimmer so he glides through the water with minimum friction, he doesn't thrash about and cause discordance and chaos he causes minimum disturbance to the water. The role of the observer is not to kill the ego, but to perfectly control it. to add to the ego all the virtues that are close to god. and destroy the negative attributes, that make his swimming unsightly. veer thats deep, have to read it many many times before something hopefully sinks in. In the mean time, can you say all this above in layman terms for pendu like me? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mekhane'ch Jannat Posted January 10, 2008 Report Share Posted January 10, 2008 Im glad you are a pendu because i am one too, its good to be a pendu. Pendu's are like fertile fields they are simple beings. Whatever you plant on them will grow (or not), be it ashes or beautiful crops. Modern intellectuals or wannabee intellectuals are closed they think they know everything, they are totally barren fields. But unforunately for pendu's all they seem to grow is "woman and wine" but the potential is there to become a devta. Moderns are dead inside, i hate modern intellectuals and moderns generally. Sorry to go on. Man or ego should not be killed, Guru Nanak say Haumai dirag rog hai DAROO BHI IS MAHI. The haumai that has to be killed is that which comprimises of the panj chor who lut your house while you are asleep to gods name. Gods name is the light which guards your house. Gods name makes you a good swimmer. The ego should be in the service of the satguru 24 hours a day. The satguru is a touchstone which converts the maggot ridden shitty ego to one of pure gold. Sabh gobind hai sabh gobind hai is too far for most of us. Understand your sh*t first then purify tap yourself then polish your ego then maybe when every speck of sh*t is taken off your ego can you say sabh gobind hai sabh gobind hai PERMANENTLY. I digress back to the point. Knowledge of god is not only up or one way. It is down as well. When you expand towards god you expand the other way as well i.e. you see the sh*t more clearly as well. Other peoples as well as your own sh*t. For liberation in the world, this knowledge has to be known. Liberation in the world is the best type. To know your own ego is paramount, if you don't the chor could be in your house fornicating with your wife despoiling her. DOn't be scared of your own mind you have to know the bad part of you just don't feed it, not to feed it you need to know it. To know and understand all the chors in your house is to be protected against them. This is a perfect swimmer, a perfected ego. This ego is illumined with gods name, his desire he selects, his desire is HIS(GODS) desire. He only acts for the one. But his ego is not dead but it is cleaned. Ego is part of mind, man buddhi ahankar. It is all one. mind is made from the atma. Mind is the atma. But it is dirty. The atma is dirty clean the atma with gods name which is also the atma. Clean your-self with yourself. But these days kids are real psychopaths sikhs muslims gora whatever too much sh*t and they are closed not open like pendu's --well some are anyway. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amriteshwar Singh Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 very nice. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tSingh Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 Mekhane ch' jannat, great post. In my humblest of opinions, i strongly disagree with some of that. If in Sri Sarbloh Granth, the Khalsa avastha is the one who recognises 'atamdev' (parmatma) and if Guru Maharaj says that atma is parmatma...how can atma be maleen? that would imply that parmatma can be maleen. While you recognise that 'man' can mean two things, the broad term for the 'mind' but also a specific part of it along with chit, budhi and hankar, when Guruji states the 'cure' is also WITHIN haumai, here ego means broader mind. What is within it is budhi (which is repeatedly referred to, inc. one shabad where Guru Maharaj explains that pavittar budhi is the experience of parmatma). Buddhi can discriminate (vivek) correctly to work away at man and hankar (haumai), to undermine it...if you think its about perfection of ego, fair enough. Personally i take 'sabh gobind hai' to mean more than 'I cerebally understand as an individuated jeev atma that everything is Parmatma', but to existentially recognise that there is nothing but parmatma...to do that means the haumai has to cease...otherwise, 'I'm me right here looking at this and i exist'. Surely this statement is from the perspective of purified consciousness or atma as in a jeevanmukt. If you changed the word in your post 'haumai' to 'consciousness' then i'd agree - pure consciousness. Pure individuated ego though as a means to brahmgyan is not something you hear in gurbani. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mekhane'ch Jannat Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 thanks for the corrective post brother, the english language is good for discussing the weather and not much else. So let me clear up my definitions, in order to destroy any confusion and ambiguity. Haumai in the quote from Baba Nanak, I agree, refers to the enveloping sheath of the broader mind. And buddhi is the 'cure'. So the big Haumai (broader mind) becomes free from the obscuring small ego, which comprimises of an individuals small desires etc. So when the small ego (hankar) has been eradicated and we are left with, through discrimination, a purified buddhi--- the fabled chains of gold, the binds of a sattvic intellect. This sattvic intellect is the closest experience of paramatma, in the false. In other words something still obscures the 'seeing' or the 'being' This is what I mean by an unpurified ego, the ego remains untranscended. When the ego is purified it is accepted into the atma, knowledge dawns of the pervasion of consciousness. Here I think is where the crux of the matter is, for me knowledge of the atma does not come about by destruction of the big Haumai. A hole is made into the substratum of consciousness that illuminates everything including the haumai, the individuated jeev would not cerebally understand that all is god, (which is a debased understanding i might add) He would be immersed in the light of consciousness BUT still aware of his pinprick exsistence. If Haumai ceases then the world ceases, there is no world just consciousness, there is no play without the evil, the haumai and all the 25 tattva extending from it are illumined, the light of paramatma is by a sants grace descended into the gross world. I am right here looking at this, and I exist, ---- and all this is me. I believe that although when someone has pierced the mystery, the haumai is still there, but it is not identified with, but its there, it is an immutable fact of creation. A stone is a stone. Big haumai can only be purified by identifying yourself? with the unconceptual, by transcending it. It cannot be destroyed only understood. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mekhane'ch Jannat Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 just to add big haumai can be called residual haumai after the experience of sabh gobind hai, you are the atma but the ego lingers. you have 2 ego's, but all is one all is bliss. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tSingh Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 Like i say, i find consciousness (as in chita) a better term than haumai for what we're talking about. i hold that smaadhi to be of complete oneness with no standpoint of self (rather than the vikalapsamadhi you describe), after which you fall back into the conditioned prarbadh karm (aka purified consciousness of nirmal budhi no longer affected by hankar or quibbling man). Gurbani talks of transcending that point of location (the 'three' or triad - meditation, meditated upon and meditator), talks of turiya as transcending self identity. So you get jivanmukt, and eventual videhmukt with the end of prarbadh karma. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pheena Posted January 11, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 The 'man' cannot override his 'instinct' to swim. The initial observation is that the observer wishing to kill the ego is a desire of the ego, yet another member of the legion that makes up the 'ego'. Man must always swim because that is his job, otherwise he would not get to pass the baton on to other swimmers, who carry on the job of swimming through the milky ocean of creation upon whom vishnu sits. The man liberated in the world cannot drown otherwise he cannot fulfill his worldly obligations. THere must be knowledge of the ego of what type of stroke the man uses etc. in other words man must become an expert swimmer so he glides through the water with minimum friction, he doesn't thrash about and cause discordance and chaos he causes minimum disturbance to the water. The role of the observer is not to kill the ego, but to perfectly control it. to add to the ego all the virtues that are close to god. and destroy the negative attributes, that make his swimming unsightly. Firstly I'd like to say that you and tsingh have baked me a cake when all i was hoping for was a cookie. The words of the beloved Kabir, "Mohay Marnay ka Chaou, Maru to har kay Dawaar". The survival instinct of our ego which has had more than enough (life) time(s) to develop and sustain itself has to be evaluated. A story of a man who was said to have been seeking for a very long time and then one day he came across a house...the house of God himself. Man filled with joy barged in the door to find a stairway leading upwards to a room. He went running up the stairs and just a few steps before he got to the door a thought came to his mind. What will I do after I meet God? My whole life has been spent searching for him, and what will I do after I meet him. It is said that the man who went charging up the stairs started to come back down and even so removing his shoes as to not make noise as he departed. It is said that this man even today knowns exactly where God is, but chooses not to go there....still pretending to be searching for him. Why is it that the Chaou does not develop in us for our death (of ego)? Has the ego learned to swim so well ? Perhaps we need the Anchor of a Guru to drown us. Osho mentions Krishnamurti says there is no need of a guru at all. This idea appeals to the intellect and to reasoning. What need to introduce the guru since I am born of God, as is the guru? Mind does not approve of the guru; so a congregation of egoists revolve around Krishnamurti. What he says is perfectly correct, that there is no need of a guru – provided you are capable of annihilating your ego yourself. But it is as difficult to drop the ego yourself as it is to lift oneself up by your bootstraps. It is just like a dog trying to catch his tail. The quicker he turns, the further his trail swishes away. If, however, a person is competent enough, then Krishnamurti is absolutely right that no guru is necessary. But here lie all the complications. No sooner have you somehow conquered your ego then you will say, ”I have dropped my ego,” and there you introduce a new form of ego even more dangerous than the old. The guru is needed so that this new ego is not born. Even as you say, ”By the grace of the guru,” you can convey by your behavior: ”See how humble I am! No one can be more humble!” And now these new paths are etched out by the ego. Till yesterday you were proud of your wealth; today you are proud of its renunciation and your humility. The rope is burned but the twists remain. How is this arrogance to be destroyed? – hence Nanak’s emphasis on the guru. There is no difficulty in attaining God directly, because He is present right in front of you. Wherever you go, there He is. But the one difficulty is that you stand within yourself, and how will you remove this interfering you? Hence, ”THE GURU’S GRACE.” The seeker may labor but the attainment will always be by the guru’s grace. This concept of the guru’s grace will not allow your ego to form. It will destroy the old ego and prevent the new from forming; otherwise, you rid yourself of one ailment and contract another. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaheediyan Posted January 12, 2008 Report Share Posted January 12, 2008 Thats a brilliant story Pheena Ji! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wicked Warrior Posted January 20, 2008 Report Share Posted January 20, 2008 People who wish to kill themselves by drowning do so by tying something heavy to themselves. The human mind's instinct and will to survive is strong. When a person is under water, they become hypoxic (low on oxygen). Instinct mechanisms kick in for the person to try to escape, regardless of the futility of it. It's like trying to kill yourself by trying to strangle your self with your bare hands. Very difficult to do. What I'd like to know is whether this desire, this will to survive is part of the ego under the control of the panj chor? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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