Is SGGS the True Guru ?

[amardeep]

maybe you can't take him seriosly because you dont understand a word of what is being said and wants everything fed to you with a silver spoon....

[Xylitol]

This Shabad is by Bhai Gurdaas Ji in Vaars Bhai Gurdaas on Pannaa 1

bwbw iPr m`ky gXw nIl bsqR Dwry bnvwrI]

baabaa fir maakae gayaa neel basathr dhhaarae banavaaree||

Donning blue attire then Baba Nanak went to Mecca.

Awsw h`Q ikqwb k`C kUjw bWg mus`lw DwrI]

aasaa haathh kithaab kaashh koojaa baa(n)g musaalaa dhhaaree||

He held staff in his hand, pressed a book under his armpit, caught hold of a metal pot and mattress.

bYTw jwie msIq ivc ijQy hwjI h`j gujwrI]

bait(h)aa jaae maseeth vich jithhae haajee haaj gujaaree||

Now he sat in a mosque where the pilgrms (hajis) had gathered.

jW bwbw su`qw rwq nUM v`l mihrwby pWie pswrI]

jaa(n) baabaa suthaa raath noo(n) vaal mehiraabae paa(n)e pasaaree||

When Baba (Nanak) slept in the night spreading his legs towards the alcove of mosque at Kaba,

jIvn mwrI lq dI kyVHw suqw ku&r ku&wrI]

jeevan maaree lath dhee kaerrhaa suthaa kur kuaaree||

the qazi named Jivan kicked him and asked who was this infidel enacting blasphemy.

lqW vl ^udwie dy ikauNkr pieAw hoie bjgwrI]

lathaa(n) val khhudhaae dhae kiou(n)akar paeiaa hoe bajagaaree||

Why this sinner is sleeping his legs spread towards God, Khuda.

tMgoN pkV GsIitAw iPirAw m`kw klw idKwrI]

tta(n)go(n) pakarr ghaseettiaa firiaa maakaa kalaa dhikhaaree||

Catching hold of the legs he lynched (Baba Nanak) and lo and behold the miracle, the whole of Mecca seemed to be revolving.

hoie hYrwn kryn juhwrI ]óò]

hoe hairaan karaen juhaaree ||aa||

All got surprised and they all bowed.

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This Shabad is by Bhai Gurdaas Ji in Vaars Bhai Gurdaas on Pannaa 1

DrI inSwnI kOs dI mky AMdr pUj krweI]

dhharee nishaanee kaas dhee makae a(n)dhar pooj karaaee||

Wooden sandal (of Baba Nanak ) was kept as a memory and he was woshipped in Mecca.

ijQy jweI jgq ivc bwby bwJ n KwlI jweI]

jithhae jaaee jagath vich baabae baajh n khaalee jaaee||

Go anywhere in the world, you would not find a place bereft of the name of Baba Nanak.

Gr Gr bwbw pUjIey ihMdU muslmwn guAweI]

ghar ghar baabaa poojeeeae hi(n)dhoo musalamaan guaaee||

Without discrimination of Hindu or Muslim, in every house, the Baba is revered.

Cpy nWih CpwieAw ciVAw sUrj jg ruSnweI]

shhapae naa(n)hi shhapaaeiaa charriaa sooraj jag rushanaaee||

When the sun rises it cannot be covered and it lightens the whole world.

buikAw isMG aujwV ivc sb imrgwvl BMnI jweI]

bukiaa si(n)gh oujaarr vich sab miragaaval bha(n)nee jaaee||

When the lion roared in the jungle the flocks of deer ran away.

ciVHAw cMd n lukeI kF kunwlI joq CpweI]

charrihaaa cha(n)dh n lukee kadt kunaalee joth shhapaaee||

If someone wants to conceal moon by putting before it a platter, it cannot be hide.

augvxhu qy AwQvxhu nau KMf ipRQvI sB JukweI]

ougavanahu thae aathhavanahu no kha(n)dd prithhavee sabh jhukaaee||

From rising to setting directions i.e from east to west, all the nine divisions of earth bowed before Baba Nanak.

jg AMdr kudrq vrqweI ]óô]

jag a(n)dhar kudharath varathaaee ||aa||

He diffused his power in whole of the world.

---

This Shabad is by Bhai Gurdaas Ji in Vaars Bhai Gurdaas on Pannaa 1

gVH bgdwd invwiekY mkw mdInw sB invwXw]

garrh bagadhaadh nivaaeikai makaa madheenaa sabh nivaayaa||

After making Baghdad, the citadel (of pirs) bow, Mecca, Madina, and, all were humbled.

isD cOrwsIh mMflI Kt drSn pwKMf jxwXw]

sidhh chaaraaseeh ma(n)ddalee khatt dharashan paakha(n)dd janaayaa||

He (Baba Nanak) subjugated and eighty four siddhs amd the hypocrisies of the six schools of Indian philosophy.

pwqwlW AwkwS lK ij`qI DrqI jgq sbwXw]

paathaalaa(n) aakaash lakh jthiee dhharathee jagath sabaayaa||

Lacs of underworlds, the skies, earths and the whole world were conquered. ........

There is a reason why Muslims attempt to make the first Guru out to be a Muslim. Their own prophet must be the final prophet. The Guru's light was too great, if seen as a member of another religion then he is clearly a prophet (rasul), people are forced to admit this, if not publicly than at least to themselves in private. But, if seen as a Muslim, he is seen as a great saint, but not a prophet, thus not disturbing Islam's claim to have the final prophet. Muslims do, after all, bow down in the direction of the Guru's sandals 5 times a day.

The reason why the lineage of Guru ship is being attacked is b/c the Gurus have written more than once that all Gurus are one and the same. The Tenth Nanak clearly rejected the authority of the Quran explicitly. By attempting to cast doubt on the passing of Guruship to SGGS, by claiming it's copying/influence, the divinity is questioned.

Those with the spiritual eye open can see prakash around Maharaj, they are aware of the immense power of the Guru. Others rattle on about influence and other such nonsense. The light in SGGS is the same as in all Gurus.

sorry admin, i'm not trying to restart debate on Guru as muslim, just pointing out what I see as something that is too relevant to the discussion at hand. just feel it needs to be said.

[shaheediyan]

Hasn't said anything offensive, I suppose comparing Guru Gobind Singh Ji to the fool and idiot Ram Raheem is polite conversation!

Please disappear Bahadur Ji, you are a vile.

[golestan]

Be name Khoda

I am not going to respond to Xylitol because he has no idea of what the concept of prophethood (nubuwwah) implies in Islam. And as I don't want to further divert you people from your topic I won't insist.

Shaheediyan wrote:

[unbreakable]

..

[shaheediyan]

It may have not have crossed your mind, but insulting someones faith and spiritual fathers is a reflection enough for one to see that imbocile as a villain.

To drive the point home through your brick like skull, had your revered Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini ever met Sir Ahmed Salman Rushdie, on whom he declared the infamous fatwa?

No, the Shia spiritual nations judgement of this so called villain was based on his writing (the artistic genre of magical realism being an alien concept), as is my judgement of your charater, based on your continuous insults, irrelevant of them being delivered 'politely'.

“The devil can site scripture for his own purpose! An evil soul producing holy witness is like a villain with a smiling cheek. [Merchant Of Venice]â€

[golestan]

Be name Khoda

The topic of this thread is the institution of the Granth Sahib. You accuse me of not sticking to the subject yet you are the ones going on and on about Bahadur Ali Shah. Ironic isn't it. As for the other issue that concerns unbreakable it is a mystery to me as to why he keeps insisting on it when the points I made speak for themselves. There is no need for me to debate with people who lack ANY and I insist here on ANY substantial knowledge of Islam. The day unbreakable shows that he has done his homework there might be a debate. For a debate to take place both parts need to share the same basic knowledge. What I have found here is that not only didn't people have that necessary knowledge about Shi'ism but on top of that tried to even dismantle basic and elementary facts without having the competence to do so. For example: when I say that Ismailis are Muslims, I am not sharing my opinion, I am stating an official recognized reality, one that is corroborated by any leading Shi'a or Sunni institution. Yet that very fact (not opinion) is being dismantled by people who themselves lack any knowledge of usul e dîn and usul e fiqh to be able to do it and who fail miserably at it. The other prerequisite for a debate is to stick to the discussion of the arguments NOT the people. Ad hominem attacks have been a recurring and constant feature in any thread I have participated in. Debating is about facts and ideas not people. Attacking me doesn't not change the facts and doesn't contribute in any way or form to the debate. And on top of that I have long grown immune to it.

kind regards

Bahadur Ali Shah

[unbreakable]

..

[shaheediyan]

A discussion is only worthwhile if one is looking to learn from it as well as contribute to it, your intentions are not to discuss and learn i.e. re-think your opinions if need be, but rather to propagate Shia’ism at every given attempt, this is plain for every one to see in all the little plugs you keep getting into all discussions.

And your or your groups opinions do not represent facts or truth, only your opinions.

This is no surprise, as your once freewill is now locked in the ‘facts’ decided upon by the institution you are now subservient to and paying obedience to.

Stop wasting our time with your boundary ridden, one-way logic and persona of hand picking only those questions which you think you can answer.

[begum]

N30 Ji,

I was in the impression that I wrongly posted in Islam Category. I had no intentions to do so and never wanted to get mixed up with shia matters. My question was polite enough - Is SGGS the True Guru ?

If feel there is a lack of participants on Sikhism in this forum. Most of the members start feeling offended in defending their faith against the claims of shia influence on Sikhism.

[amardeep]

Bhai Nand Lal, Gurbani, Bhai Gurdass and early historical scriptures all say that Gurbani is the Guru..... really there is no discussion on this..

[shaheediyan]

Begum, a Sikh will always feel offended when one insults his Guru.

There is way to discuss politely, diplomatically and in a civilied manner, something whihc is alien to our Shia friends.

[Xylitol]

"I am not going to respond to Xylitol because he has no idea of what the concept of prophethood (nubuwwah) implies in Islam. And as I don't want to further divert you people from your topic I won't insist. "

Please, do tell us what the concept of prophethood implies. What is it that makes Prophet Mohammed different from the Gurus with regard to this concept.