Gobinday Mukandey Uddarey Apaare Hariang Kariang Nirnaame...

[Ragmaala]

WJKK WJKF

What is the significance or mahatam of doing a jaap of this shabad , lets say a minimum of sava lakh times ?

When doing the jaap , is it advisabe to do it in ur mouth or out loud ?

I have heard Giani Thakur Singh ji talk about doing jaaps of this shabad ?

Does anyone know more about this shabad by Dasam Patshah and the treasures that it holds , maybe xylitol or anyone else ?

Thank you

WJKK WJKF

[Niranjana]

There are 'stories' (accounts/sakhis/folktales - depending on your take) of the late and much respect Sant Attar Singh Mastuanewale reciting this 'Chand' repeatedly during his time at Hazoor Sahib (I believe the foremost propagator of this story is one 'Sant Baba' Maan Singh - who most will no doubt remember for his alleged 'sex slaves' incident a few years back).

The late 'Yogi Bhajan' and his 3HO with their usual 'new age' influenced Sikhi chant this as part of their special morning 'sadhana for the aquarian age' (supposedly Yogi-ji knew that the chants that form part of this 'sadhana' were the best selection until 2012 - not sure if this has anything to do with the London Olympics). According to 3HO, this offers 'protection' and was used by Guru Gobind Singh alongside a particular 'Yoga' exercise peculiar to Yogi Bhajan's Kundalini Yoga when training his Khalsa Troops.

[shaheediyan]

"The late 'Yogi Bhajan' and his 3HO with their usual 'new age' influenced Sikhi chant this as part of their special morning 'sadhana for the aquarian age' (supposedly Yogi-ji knew that the chants that form part of this 'sadhana' were the best selection until 2012 - not sure if this has anything to do with the London Olympics)."

LOL.

The other one is that those Singhs who regularly recite Jaap Sahib really fast used to be so superhuman they would even outrun their horses whilst reciting the baani....

Although the above stories can be deemed silly, there is no doubt that specific verses from Jaap Sahib were certainly (and still are) used by Nihang Singhs whilst practicing various pentras etc. Also, I doubt a little stretch of the muscles before entering the battlefield would have been such a bad idea... maybe there would have been some form of namaskara according to Kshatriya tradition i.e. Surya related or perhaps to Guru or Shaaster - which would have included warrior yoga posses. All specualtion on my part of course.

[Xylitol]

You can recite it out loud or silently, kamai is considered to be greater when recited silently.

It's for protection, for shaheed singhs to do rakhya. Gyani Thakur Singh explained it to me thus, Think of Mool Mantr as the raja, and this mantr (Chachri Chand, Tav Prasaad) as the general.

My understanding is that any Gurbani can do anything, but different shabads tend to have a greater thrust in a particular direction.

[Niranjana]

That's very nice - I recall Gyani Thakur Singh also referring to Sobha Singh as someone with his dasam duar faculties activated...which makes me wonder if Gyani Ji actually is aware of the source for Sobha Singh's paintings or if he like many others falls for the myth that surrounds this artist.

[Ragmaala]

Niranjana keep your sarcasm to yourself. Giani Thakur Singh has had the sangat of many mahapurash and kamai wale gursikhs , and you can feel the rass from his katha as well. He doesnt make up stuff from himself. Baba Harnam Singh ji rampur khede wale used to do jaap of this shabad and that is very he learnt about the benefits of doing jaap of this shabad. He speaks from his experiences not just make up stuff.

And I haven't ever heard about sobha singh tale. and how do you know if its a myth , do you have the capability of sensing someone's spiritual advancement ?

Anything that you cannot seem to understand seems like mythical and fairy stuff to you eh. I don't have to go on convince you about anything , you have your own way of examining things or set of beliefs.

[Niranjana]

Niranjana keep your sarcasm to yourself.

I cannot see where in my earlier post I have made any sarcastic comment. I have simply made reference to a recording of a Katha by Gyani Jee in which he made certain comments which obviously raise certain questions.

Giani Thakur Singh has had the sangat of many mahapurash and kamai wale gursikhs , and you can feel the rass from his katha as well. He doesnt make up stuff from himself. Baba Harnam Singh ji rampur khede wale used to do jaap of this shabad and that is very he learnt about the benefits of doing jaap of this shabad. He speaks from his experiences not just make up stuff.

I really don't see what relevance this has to the point I made - I am not doubting his sangat with people held in high esteem. I am simply asking a question about his assertion regarding Sobha Singh's paintings.

Baba Harnam Singh ji rampur khede wale used to do jaap of this shabad and that is very he learnt about the benefits of doing jaap of this shabad. He speaks from his experiences not just make up stuff

Again, when have I suggested to the contrary? In my comments to date on this thread, I am simply highlighting that surrounding any legitimate practice or theory there is an uncanny knack for a whole variety of nonsense pseudo scientific mumbo jumbo to drummed up - such as with the example provided above for the 3HO 'sadhana for the aquarian age'. I note you have ignored my other comments regarding the much respected Sant Attar Singh Mastunanewale reciting this shabd (i.e. I am not in any ridiculing the practice).

And I haven't ever heard about sobha singh tale. and how do you know if its a myth , do you have the capability of sensing someone's spiritual advancement?

Ragmala, you obviously reacting emotionally to my comment and in the process have got the wrong end of the stick. Yes you are correct in that you clearly haven't heard about Sobha Singh's paintings and as result are making an accusation against me for something I didn't say in the first place! I am not questioning anyone's "spiritual advancement", I am raising the question over Sobha Singh's paintings (and no I don't have it in for him since I have a fair view of them around my own house), maybe when you have calmed down, you could look into the issue I am actually questioning.

Anything that you cannot seem to understand seems like mythical and fairy stuff to you eh. I don't have to go on convince you about anything , you have your own way of examining things or set of beliefs.

Actually no. I don't fully understand quite a few things from some rather simple biology to some quantitative financial models to rocket science but that doesn't make any of that 'mythical' to me, likewise I don't fully understand why humans sleep or what exactly happens to us at death, but again that does not make any of these things 'mythical'.

Yes, you don't 'have to' convince me of anything or me convince you of anything, this is a forum for sharing ideas and raising questions, I'm not here to do anything other than that!

In any event, what's wrong with something being 'mythical' - every civilisation has its 'mythology' and it is central to its development in many respects.

[Mithr]

Gurbani is Mantar Roop. Many Mahpursh repeatedly recite shabds like a Mantar. Recently many modern thinking Sikhs such as Kala Afghanist, missionaries etc discourage repetitive recitation of Shabds. They discourage Sikhs from doing it by ridiculing it as being too Hindu or by calling it tota raTnaa. This new movement within Sikhs is similar to the Wahabi movement of the Muslims who also make it their goal to discard anything they see as being "un Islamic", which includes doing Zikr of Gods names or repatitive recitation of Quranic verses.

This new movement within religions around the world with people thinking with too much logic is actually damaging religions than making it better. Firstly it destroys people's Shardaa for their Dharm. With less Sharda comes the down fall of your jeevan.

I know a guy long ago who had alot of Sharda for Sikhi. He was an Amritdhari with a long flowing beard. But later on he started reading Sikh missionary books. Sikh missionaries always promote too much logical thinking rather than Sharda. Soon he started analysing everything like a scientist when it came to matters of faith. It wasn't long before the guy cut his hair because the Sharda inside him was almost dead.

Many Mahpursh like Sant Jagjit Singh Harkhowalwalay encourage people to do many Paaths of Japji Sahib a day. These spiritual masters themselves have practical spiritual experience that people like us don't have. Yet we also have many worldly logical thinking Sikh missionary leaders who discourage it. Recently some big hot shot Sikh missionary guy from Gurdaspur is doing alot of Parchar against people who do too much paaths of Japji Sahib or Sukhmani Sahib or just Shabds.

Point is, matters of faith sometimes require Sharda rather then worldly logical thinking. Ideally we need to think with Sharda plus logical thinking. But that logical thinking should be based on Sikh traditions. By Sikh traditions I mean examples and traditions of the Gurus, great Sikh Mahpursh. Even the example of the Bhaggats of Kaliyug and of previous yugs (whose names are mentioned in Gurbani) are to be followed as exampliary Saints.

[shaheediyan]

I thought all Hadiths agree that Muhammed Sahib used to be an avid practitioner of Dhikr (Zhikr)?

I don't think correct logic and sharda are contradictory.

Repeating a complete shabd or Gur/Mool Mantre is 100% logic. How does one revise for an exam - by repitition - we engrain gurbani on our mind through repitition - next thing to do is vichaar and understand it.

Repeating Gods name - keeps us God focused - and that focus affects all our thoughts, decisions and actions - logic.

Repeating bani enables us to memorise it - hence negating the use of numerous gutke when quoting or pothi when doing kirtan - logic.

In my view are Guru's were completely logical - it is for their supreme and pure logic that I have sharda.

[Niranjana]

Gurbani is Mantar Roop. Many Mahpursh repeatedly recite shabds like a Mantar.

Agreed, which is why it is hilarious to find practices such as recitation of 'special banis' over a glass of water and drinking the water as if it has some magical power because of the mantra - the obvious issue here being, that if the mantra can affect the water which is external to us, then surely it can affect us, our blood and our minds?

Recently many modern thinking Sikhs such as Kala Afghanist, missionaries etc discourage repetitive recitation of Shabds. They discourage Sikhs from doing it by ridiculing it as being too Hindu or by calling it tota raTnaa.

I agree that hyper-rationalists like IOSS, Kala Afghana and other similar 'Bhasuarias' grossly miss the point and are still living in a fantasy world which has just come out of the European Enlightenment! I think we need to distinguish between a practice (here the repetition of a mantra or particular 'paath') and what is known as 'totaratnaa' which is critiqued by the Gurus too and with many things now prevalent in the Panth (particularly over the past 100 years) has its origins with Buddhist influences rather than the dreaded Hindu influence that Sikhs are all so concerned about.

This new movement within religions around the world with people thinking with too much logic is actually damaging religions than making it better. Firstly it destroys people's Shardaa for their Dharm. With less Sharda comes the down fall of your jeevan.

I note your example of your ex-Amritdhari friend, however the problem we have is again an issue that has arisen from largely post-enlightenment Western thinking which many Indians have acquired via their western schooling. Whatever way one looks at the world, when using such an approach, will eventually lead to a duality of Science vs. Religion, Logic/Reason vs. Faith/Mysticism etc etc.

Such black and white issues did not traditionally exist in traditional civilisations, be they Mediterranean, Middle Eastern, Indian or elsewhere - many of these have been the birth place of what is known today as 'science' and indeed also 'skepticism' and also have been centres for traditional forms of Christiantiy, Islam and Hinduism - i.e. this 'science/logic vs. religion/spirituality' issue didn't arise there!

Why I raise this point is that there is a disturbing trend within Gurdwaras and 'religious' Sikh circles to moan about people who are 'educated' and make use of tools such as 'logic' or 'science' etc, it has become too familiar a sight to walk into a Gurdwara and hear that Kathakar or Ragi deriding 'parhey likhey' as some form of abomination - this is nothing but dangerous and simply brews a culture of anti-intellectualism - something that is already rife within Punjabi Sikhs for a variety of factors, not all internal necessarily, but whatever the case, why should we allow this to continue.

As for the newly formed middle class 'educated' Punjabi Sikh community, maybe read up a little more using your much prized 'education' and look into matters such as 'skepticism', particularly 'empirical skepticism' and realise the folly of some of your educated rationalist brethen and their over reliance on "logic" and "reason".

[shaheediyan]

"Agreed, which is why it is hilarious to find practices such as recitation of 'special banis' over a glass of water and drinking the water as if it has some magical power because of the mantra - the obvious issue here being, that if the mantra can affect the water which is external to us, then surely it can affect us, our blood and our minds?"

Interesting, this is the same as leaving a small baata at an akhand paath and then distributing it as amrit.

However I disagree that water cannot be made holy - Khande da Amrit is not just a ritual/rhetoric - the linked contact of the Panj Pyare with kirpan, and the kirpan with the baata does transfer (conduct) pyaar/naam/ras - (arising from the affect of the baani on the Singh sahiban) into the water and trasnform it into amrit. This isn't modern Sikh - science reconciling with religion thinking - it's what I truely believe having experienced the power of amrit.

This doesn't contradict Niranjana's point that the power of baani should be able to affect our body directly - and I believe it does when one recites baani/kirtan/simran themself - but Khande da Amrit is a differetn scenario.

[Mithr]

Good point by Shaheediya. Just as water can be transformed into Amrit by the Panj who recite the 5 banis infront of it, Kara can be transformed into Parshad by the touch of a Sarbloh Kirpan similarly I don't see why water cannot be transformed into something more by reciting Bani next to it. It's all to do with Shardha at the end of the day. I also beleive that the Sarover at Harimandir Sahib is no ordinary water. It's my beleif that taking Ishnaan in that Sarovar is not some empty ritual.

[Niranjana]

"This doesn't contradict Niranjana's point that the power of baani should be able to affect our body directly - and I believe it does when one recites baani/kirtan/simran themself - but Khande da Amrit is a differetn scenario"

Veer Ji, exactly! It is a different scenario! The Khanda/Kirpan Amrit, Karah Prashad is a 'vidhi' passed down from Guru Sahib's time and has a large amount of formality associated with it (i.e. initiation, pledge/declaration of faith etc). The situation of the bottle of water leaves itself open to a whole manner of innovations.

Mithr:

"I don't see why water cannot be transformed into something more by reciting Bani next to it"

I am not disputing that it can - however, to focus on your point concerning 'sharda' and 'faith', this whole issue of doing a 'special paath' over a bottle of water and then drinking that water to acheieve the desired goal/wish/objective one is praying for (which is typically why people, usually older females, engage in such activity, typically on the advice provided by Sants and Babas) is effectively undermining 'faith' and 'sharda' in the Paath/Mantra/Ardas being performed/recited! If one had 'faith', then why the need for the 'jal' ritual which is not mentioned in the Sikh Rehit Maryada or any rehitnama literature?