Roop Of Atma?!

[SAadmin]

I asked this question to baba jagjit singh ji, can we consider atma as sargun saroop ?? He said atma is nirgun. Very good straight forward answer, but he did not said explicitly that atma is not sargun. I m not questioning what he said, may be he said it for easy understanding so that one does not limit atma to sargun saroop of paratma and start idiolizing it. I open this discussion to get sangat view on this.

I think atma can be consider sargun roop for understanding but real essence of atma is nirgun. Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji himself gives example of this in Sri Akaal Ustat:

Zami Zaman Kaie Bikhaie Na Samasth

Ik jot hai Na Ghat Hai Na Bhad Hai

Na Ghat Bhad hoth hai ||

What do you guys think?

[shaheediyan]

Nirgun.

Maybe our mun can be considered sargun because of its interplay and entanglement with maya - but the I feel the atma is the nirgun essence of the nirgun parmatma that exists in us all - that which is akaal is nirgun - sargun is tied to kaal.

[tSingh]

Gurfatehji,

Atma cannot be sargun for simple reasons. For Atma and Braham to be one and the same (advaita) they must be of the same essence (sadchidanand). When consciousness is associated with the pure sattvaguna of maya it is called Parmatma/Bhagvan/Ishvar. This is the cause of the gross and subtle manifestation. Braham in sargun form is the ruler of maya. In turn, that same consciousness afflicted by agyaan becomes the jeeva, but it is not possessing sargun attributes in any true sense, for that would imply a real modification of its nature - in other words Maya has given it actual qualities. This form (jeev) which appears to have qualities is a result of ignorance (i.e. the quality of agency, of quality of independence, etc). Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji has written in Gyan Prabodh that Atma and Braham are no different and that their shared qualities are being free of karam, death, difference, illusion, desire, etc. Therefore Atma remains nirgun in essence. Its apparent form as a dynamic living thinking feeling independent being is the result of agyaan.

Hope that helps.

t

[SAadmin]

Thanks for responding on this topic tsingh, I agree atma in essence is nirgun, there is no question about that. If atma is truly believed to be parbhram Vahiguroo then it also must have qualities of Vahiguroo as well which is - nirgun and sargun. One may believe and realize based on their surti sitting in nirgun avastha that sargun parsara is all result of agyan or one may believe and realize based on their surti in nirgun avastha that all sargun parsara is indeed all parbhram, jot roop, atamsaroop which lead their surti to not to differentiate between sargun and nirgun.

Main question here comes down to - Does Gurbani supports that sargun parsara(creation) is all result of agyan or sargun pasara is all jot/atam roop? or both?

I have found gurbani supporting latter view more which is sargun saroop of vahiguroo itself is all jot roop which will lead us in nirgun parbhram once one's surti is in sun samadhi.

Gurbani tuks like-

Zami Zaman Kaie Bikhaie Na Samasth

Ik jot hai Na Ghat Hai Na Bhad Hai

Na Ghat Bhad hoth hai ||

sabhai ghat raam bolai raamaa bolai.

Within all hearts, the Lord speaks, the Lord speaks.

raam binaa ko bolai ray. ||1|| rahaa-o.

Who else speaks, other than the Lord? ||1||Pause|Sabh Ghat Ram Bholaie Ram ||

ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਦੀਸੈ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਸੁਣੀਐ ਏਕੁ ਏਕੁ ਵਖਾਣੀਐ ॥

breham dheesai breham suneeai eaek eaek vakhaaneeai ||

ਆਤਮ ਪਸਾਰਾ ਕਰਣਹਾਰਾ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਬਿਨਾ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਣੀਐ ॥

aatham pasaaraa karanehaaraa prabh binaa nehee jaaneeai ||

sabh gobind hai sabh gobind hai gobind bin nahee ko-ee ||

enjoy !

[fatehsingh]

Chicken and the egg.

[tSingh]

sargun pasara is not the result of 'agyan' for that implies that Braham suffers ignorance of its own nature. This is the point. The sargun form through to the vairat sargun svarup of braham (jale hari thale hari) is all in the context of maya-pati, sarbgya, antarjami parmatma, meaning controlled by He who is unafflicted by maya, also referred to as the samashti roop. Only the jiva is afflicted by ignorance (avidya, agyan, etc). The jiva is nirgun chetan (atma svarup) reflected in that ignorance. Its qualities are derived from that. To argue that jiva and parmeshvar (rather than jiv and braham) are the same in having the same nirgun and sargun qualities would lead to the conclusion that a brahamgyani becomes the universe (which is a form of sargun parmeshvar only). There is a distinction between sargun braham and the jiva. Even after brahamgyan there remains a distinction. Many sadhus have written that even after becoming jivanmukt the gyani continues to be devoted to bhagvan, because that will always be distinct. I think you need to study some of the key ideas of adhyatam again. there are some misunderstandings you have that once cleared will help to solve this, such as the distinction between shudh sattva maya-prakriti + chetan = sargun parmeshvar and srishti, and malin sattva guna maya + chetan = jiva and agyan. There is a very important distinction to be made here. We suffer agyaan and bhram, whereas trehguna prakrti is 'sabh teri maya'.

[SAadmin]

tsingh, thanks a lot for responding to this, it took me few reads to finally graps some of the parts but some its still little unclear and it does gives room for more questions regarding to this topic-

" To argue that jiva and parmeshvar (rather than jiv and braham) are the same in having the same nirgun and sargun qualities would lead to the conclusion that a brahamgyani becomes the universe (which is a form of sargun parmeshvar only)"

- But we do see such example when this happened, when arjuna asked krishan maharaj to show him vairaat saroop, krishan maharaj showed his vairaat saroop of vahiguroo from his mouth? Now is there any difference between bhramgyanis and sargun avtar? is it because bhramgyanis are not made out of shud satogun and karak bhramgyanis or avtars are? is that the reason why above sakhi is exception?

Also few more questions:

- How much of element in Jiva is made out of agyanta and how much of it is atamsaroop? (million dollar question? thanks to drawrof for this..hehe)

- If atma cannot be sargun only nirgun parbhram, how does one do atam chintan? because, one may still bring atma in form of shakti/chaitanta or sargun parkriti in their surti? is this chintan(meditation) according to sidhant of gurmat advaita? I think this would be ok align with gurmat advait because even if atma cannot be sargun but its chaitanta exist everywhere in each particles of all the sargun parsara right? if you could use further analogy to explain this?

[jsingh96]

excellent posts

[tSingh]

Gurfateh

Good questions. I'll answer forward-backward's first - how much of the jiva is agyanta and how much is atma svarup? The notion of mutual superimposition between sakshi atma and the jiva identity (termed tadatmaya adhyas) states that the quailities of consciousness and existence are reflected into the jiva's nature. All else that arises out of that is through bhed, bhram stemming from agyaan - gurbani 'antar agyan dukh bhram hai vich parrda door piaas', the parrda (veil) of bhram (false cognition). There are in fact five types of bhram; sang, kartar-tva, satya-tva, vikaar, bhed. All that arises from this is false. The bhram ka parrda is gurbani's way of explaining the shakti (power) of aavaran, one of the two results of agyaan at the level of the jiva (not something Paramishvar is affected by). Atma chintan - well, strictly speaking you can never truly objectify the atma, totally impossible, and this is because of the distinction between proksh (indirect) and aproksh (direct) gyaan. Any knowledge which you can understand through the mind is mediated through the triputi of object of perception, perceptor and the process of perception (thus it is sarvikalap). When the mind is in ekaagar, when the thoughts fall away, then the empty consciousness of smadhi is entered into 'sun smaadhi'.

There is a very important distinction to be made between avatar and a brahamgyani. The latter has obtained knowledge of braham...but it does not say that the brahamgyani has become avatar, nor has she become bhagvaan. Imagine you walk into a hall of distorted mirrors. The person is reflected in one mirror as a small squat person, in another mirror as a huge collosal person. Whenever that person is being reflected by different mirrors that person appears in different forms. This metaphor only conveys some of what is being explained here. Don't take it as a perfect metaphor. A jiva is affected by agyaan. When it becomes brahamgyani, it continues to be situated in the sthul sareer until prarbdha karam is finished. During this time, it continues to take the jiva's sareer (squat person mirror), and not the vairat sargun braham form of bhagvaan (tall person mirror), even though the essence of both is the same (the same 'person' being nirgun braham). Like I said, avatar and bhagvan is maya-pati. The two, maya and braham are personified in dasam bani as mahakaal and mahakalikaa, and there are clear references to mahakalika residing at the feet of mahakaal. Adhyatam Ramayan has the same with sita being maya-prakriti and Ram as sadchidanand braham.

hope this helps.

[SAadmin]

Thanks a lot tsingh for your deep vichar on this, i m definitely getting what you are trying to say slowly but surely. I will have to read it few more times to totally grasp it, if i have any question, will reply to this topic.

[amardeep]

The Sikhawareness team should arrange a sikh camp in UK and have great knowledgeable sikhs such as tsingh, kam, valli singhshaheediyan, pheena and mekhane janat to give lectures on sikhi. It would be a good way to get to know each other on the basis of Sikhi

[SAadmin]

Never mind found answer to my question in sri guru gobind singh ji gyan parbodh:

Also bachan by sri guru gobind singh ji in sri dasam granth sahib- gyan parbodh:

ਚਰਿਓ ਆਤਮਾ ਪਰਾਤਮਾ ਸੰਗ ॥ ਉਤਭੁਜ ਸਰੂਪ ਅਬਿਗਤ ਅਭੰਗ ॥

उचरिओ आतमा परातमा संग ॥ उतभुज सरूप अबिगत अभंग ॥

The soul said to the Higher Soul; the Germinating Entity, Unmanifested and Invincible;

ਇਹ ਕਉਨ ਆਹਿ ਆਤਮਾ ਸਰੂਪ ॥ ਜਿਹ ਅਮਿਤ ਤੇਜ ਅਤਿਭੂਤਿ ਬਿਭੂਤਿ ॥੨॥੧੨੭॥

इह कउन आहि आतमा सरूप ॥ जिह अमित तेज अतिभूति बिभूति ॥२॥१२७॥

What is this Soul Entity? Which hath indelible glory and which is of queer substance."2.127.

ਪਰਾਤਮਾ ਬਾਚ ॥

परातमा बाच ॥

The Higher Soul said:

ਯਹਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਆਹਿ ਆਤਮਾ ਰਾਮ ॥ ਜਿਹ ਅਮਿਤ ਤੇਜਿ ਅਬਿਗਤ ਅਕਾਮ ॥

यहि ब्रहम आहि आतमा राम ॥ जिह अमित तेजि अबिगत अकाम ॥

This Soul is itself Brahman;" Who is of Everlasting Glory and is Unmanisfested and Desireless.

ਜਿਹ ਭੇਦ ਭਰਮ ਨਹੀਂ ਕਰਮ ਕਾਲ ॥ ਜਿਹ ਸਤ੍ਰ ਮਿਤ੍ਰ ਸਰਬਾ ਦਿਆਲ ॥੩॥੧੨੮॥

जिह भेद भरम नहीं करम काल ॥ जिह सत्र मित्र सरबा दिआल ॥३॥१२८॥

Who is indiscriminate, actionless and deathless; Who hath no enemy and friend and is Merciful towards all.3.1228.