Singh Sabha Movement?

[tonyhp32]

Shaheediyan,

Have a read of Amritpal Singh's site and you will know why I made that statement. Propogating fairy stories about a Nihang jathedar sitting in Akal Takht in 1920 and being thrown out by the Akalis are some of the myths that are being told by Nihangs and starry eyed kids in the west. You, MDS and Maha Singh attempted to show that the aggression was on the part of the Akalis and that they were ending the Nihang jathedari from the times of Guru Hargobind. No evidence apart from some grainy images proving nothing were provided. The likelihood is that Nihang custodianship of Akal Takht ended after Akali Phula Singh while Maharaja Ranjit Singh was still ruling over Punjab. The British just continued the trend of government appointed Sarbrahs until the Akalis took over in 1920.

[navjot2]

dear HSD

if you are able to read any Gurmukhi why dont you demonstarate as much? if you can 'put it into action' where is this evident from your demeanor? i feel nauseated even communicating with half the people on this board.

you have to 'breakdown' my comments to give your 'answers' shows the kind of mentality we are dealing with here. with you the fact is that you start 'mouthing off' when presented with any arguement.

you can reread yourself what you wrote, it looks like mentally ill person wrote it. you think that because there was idols in/around SGGS it proves that the sikh panth was going to be destroyed as part of some hindu 'plan'? you must feel embarrased for presenting such stupid arguements hence the aggression. so tell me what was this plan, was SGGS going to eventually replaced by a idol too? you have not even responded to the fact that they were in the periphery. people on this site cannot seem to follow a line of argument. they just dash from one thing to another. acting like that is called desperation, not dicussion.

the sad fact is that all you have to do is read some hindu/muslim forum you see how generally more intelligent they tend to be then this and other sikh forums. even sadder but i bet most of you reguarly are reading some muslim or hindu forums.

Gurbani can only be mispresented /incorrectly quoted by partially quoting or mistranslating. how will this present itself if someone approaches SGGS direct? and how is going to some other forum to be presented with twisted interpretation different form going to some sikh forum to get the same thing? you do not think sikh forums are doing the same thing?

when i say 'literal' i mean adhering to the original wording in original context. duh! funny the examples you pick is not what 'sikh scholars' tend to pick up on when telling peole their nonesense, because they are self evident. they tend to pick up on othr stuff. but you probably know at least this much.

Why shouldnt I present opinion with explanation on Singh Sabha, on a thread about Singh Sabha? because you dont like it ?

The freaks on this board and their 'agenda' crap. If anyone your precious Singh Sabha were agendaists, so admin cut off. F.Y.I. I am not blaming the British at all.

Am I talking about Hindustan or Islamic republic? again idiots ont his stupid site cannot comprehend anything without comparing it to Hindus or Muslims. are you really so psychologically retarded? Sorry but when i say religion i mean Sikhi with its own terms of reference. Its your desperation to be like other religions that is part of your insecurity. 'we sikhs'? Typicall modern mentallity of you idiots to say 'we' when refering to people of past.

its your sad paranoia that i or anyone else has some agenda to 'stamp out sikh idenity'. stop imaging things you coward.

P.S. Its not my fault if Macauliff played such a central role in Singh Sabha. and if you are so secure in your knowledge of 'sikh identity' why do you have cling so much on Singh Sabha to affirm it? did actual 'sikh identity' only come into existance 100 years ago?

Edited October 14, 2009 by navjot2

[navjot2]

Hi Matheen

The oldest birs of Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji have 'pehrey bindi' letters.

let me show you:

go to: http://www.patshahi10.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=245:sri-dasam-granth-beerh-1698-ad-takhat-sri-patna-sahib-&catid=62:historic-beerhs&Itemid=106

this is apparently the oldest Bir of Dasam Granth. If you scroll down you will see they have typed up teh actual wording (in black and red font) and you will note that it says PaatiSaah not PaatiShaah (Sassa not Shasha).

i read in a sikh grammar book about shasha, zazza, etc being introduced in 1800.

[singh2]

Sarbrah was the manager appointed by the British to look after the whole complex and not just Harmandir Sahib. The whole complex was under a Sarbrah since the times of Maharaja Ranjit Singh who first appointed Desa Singh Majithia and then his son Lehna Singh Majithia. Part of the British justification in having a role in the selection of the Sarbrah was that they were continuing the tradition of the ruler appointing the Sarbrah from the days of Ranjit Singh. After Lehna Singh, the British appointed Jodh Singh. As Sarbrah his control was total and powers included being able to fine the Pujaris for misconduct as well as exclude them from the precincts for upto six months. The dastur-ul-amal of 1859, an administration paper was agreed between Lehna Singh, Jodh Singh and other sirdars clearly treats the whole complex as one classing the superiority of the Pujaris into three grades and then the rebabis, ragis and others. It is interesting that this paper does not even mention the Nihangs let alone grant them any status amongst the Pujaris and others.

I would be wary of the claim of the budhadal site that those jathedars of Budha Dal were 'sworn' in as Akal Takht Jathedars. There are even doubts that the Budha Dal of today has any connected to the Dal founded in the eighteenth century.

During ranjit singh's rule nihungs under akali Phoola singh had total control over the complex. They had militray might to enforce that. They had a battle with English soldiers near the complex when they visited Amritsar after treaty with sikhs. Lehna singh majithia was given charge for gilding of Golden temple.He was an engineer and astromoner well versed for the job.John Malcolm who visited Amritsar in 1805 and was a witness to last gurmatta of sikhs writes in his book about Nihungs ( written as akalis) in control of Akal takhat.The book is sketch of sikhs.

Not believing in site of Budha Dal is your personal choice but site is stating the facts. May be akali phula singh was not a Nihung in your terminology but he was a nihung singh for other sikhs who achieved heights of glory in battles fought for expanding sikh empire especially battle of Multan and Nowshera.

[singh2]

V. Jacquemont was a French who toured Punjab in 1831.He was a scientist who wrote his observations in the form of letters that were tarnslated in English.

V. Jacquemon On Nihung singhs in Amritsar whom he calls akalis

" the akalis, or immortals, are properly speaking sikh faqirs. Their rule compels them to be dressed in blue and always to carry arms. The sacred pol at Amritsar is their headquarters, but they often spread themselves over the punjab in large and formidable parties. Ranjit wisely turns their ferocity to his own advantage. He enlists them in his armies and employs them preferably against Mussalman enemies. He has at the moment 4,000-5,000 of them in the army. which he maintains at Attock, ready to march against another fanatic Syed. I have only seen two of them in the streets of Amritsar; it was evening and the matches of their muskets hung ready lighted. I had never seen more sinister looking figures."

Excerpts from :The Punjab a 100 years ago

Edited October 14, 2009 by singh2

[singh2]

"The one sided biographies of Kartar Singh Jhabbar and Teja Singh Chuharhkana etc. have caused serious misconceptions for the historians. They have made tall claims for their roles in the Akali Movement, when the truth is that the activities of Kartar Singh Jhabbar and Teja Singh Chuharhkana etc. were anti-panthic which were more beneficial for the government. Their autocratic activities which was mostly against the decisions and plans of the Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee and Akali Dal created many problems for the Akali Movement. If we examine the history of Akali Movement closely, then we will appreciate that the whole blood-bath in the Akali morchas was caused only due to the activities of such rowdy depredators which were directed more to their self-aggrandisement rather than the benefit of the community. S. Amar Singh Jhubal had always asserted that all the bloody disturbances and massacres in Tarn Taran, Nankana Sahib and Guru ka Bagh morchas were caused only due to the activities of Jhabbar and Bhuchar etc. against the decisions of Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee and Akali Dal. Had this group of pugnacious grabbers synchronized their activities with the plans of the Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee and Akali Dal, then all these gurdwaras could have been liberated in reconciliation and without unnecessary bloodbath.""

From :Real Story of Liberation of Gurdwara Tarn Taran

(as described by Sardar Amar Singh Jhubal1)

Bhai Aridaman Singh Jhubal

International Institute of Sikh Studies,

[tonyhp32]

Singh2,

The fact that Nihangs were custodians at Akal Takht during the time of Akali Phula Singh is NOT in dispute. Your posting of reports from the early eighteenth century serves no purpose. What is in dispute is that in 1920 there was a Nihang who was the Akal Takht jathedar and who was manhandled out of his hereditary role by Akalis when they took over the Akal Takht. As of yet, no concrete evidence has been presented.

As for your quote about the activities of Kartar Singh Jhabbar, there were two factions in Akali Dal who although they agreed on the need to liberate the Gurdwaras, disagreed on the methods and time frame. On faction wanted to involve M K Gandhi and adhere to his sanctimonious advice that the liberation of the Gurdwaras should be postphoned until India got it's independence. Kartar Singh Jhabbar was amongst the faction that thought that it would be harder to liberate the Gurdwaras with a Hindu government in place rather than under the British.

FYI Amar Singh Jhubal was on the congress side and he was instrumental in creating congress committees in Punjab. With the recent attempts to rewrite history and portray the Akali movement as illegitimate, so some family members of Jhubal are attempting to rewrite history to reduce the role of leaders like Kartar Singh Jhabbar. Whereas as most of the Akali leaders suffered all or a majority of their imprisonment for the Akali movement, Amar Singh Jhubal, out of nearly 5 years imprisonment only went to prison for three months for the Akali movement and the rest of the time for activities linked with the Congress party of Gandhi and Nehru.

Interesting enough in the quote you gave from "Real Story of Liberation of Gurdwara Tarn Taran" where the author spares no attempt to malign Kartar Singh Jhabbar, even he does not use the sanatan myth of the Nihang jathedar being kicked out of Akal Takht.

Edited October 14, 2009 by tonyhp32

[tonyhp32]

For those interested in reading the one sided account of how bad and evil Kartar Singh Jhabbar was you can read the whole paper here-;

http://export.writer.zoho.com/public/adhillon/Akal---Independence-Movement---Liberation-of-Gurdwara-Tarn-Taran1/fullpage

Just remember that the writer is the grandson of Amar Singh Jhubal. Read how he places the whole blame for the clash at Tarn Taran on Kartar Singh Jhabbar and exonerates the Pujaris who had assaulted a woman at the complex a few days before and who had filled the complex with their hired goons many of whom were drunk.

[singh2]

Singh2,

The fact that Nihangs were custodians at Akal Takht during the time of Akali Phula Singh is NOT in dispute. Your posting of reports from the early eighteenth century serves no purpose. What is in dispute is that in 1920 there was a Nihang who was the Akal Takht jathedar and who was manhandled out of his hereditary role by Akalis when they took over the Akal Takht. As of yet, no concrete evidence has been presented.

Nihungs were custodians of akal takhat sahib till 1925. The incident you are mentioning happened inside harmandir sahib. maryada was broken by kartar singh Jhabbar inside Harmandir sahib when he barged in. he is the only person who has delievered a speech inside harmanidr sahib.

As for your quote about the activities of Kartar Singh Jhabbar, there were two factions in Akali Dal who although they agreed on the need to liberate the Gurdwaras, disagreed on the methods and time frame. On faction wanted to involve M K Gandhi and adhere to his sanctimonious advice that the liberation of the Gurdwaras should be postphoned until India got it's independence. Kartar Singh Jhabbar was amongst the faction that thought that it would be harder to liberate the Gurdwaras with a Hindu government in place rather than under the British.

There was no Akali dal till then. This incident happened in 1920. read history of akali dal

FYI Amar Singh Jhubal was on the congress side and he was instrumental in creating congress committees in Punjab. With the recent attempts to rewrite history and portray the Akali movement as illegitimate, so some family members of Jhubal are attempting to rewrite history to reduce the role of leaders like Kartar Singh Jhabbar. Whereas as most of the Akali leaders suffered all or a majority of their imprisonment for the Akali movement, Amar Singh Jhubal, out of nearly 5 years imprisonment only went to prison for three months for the Akali movement and the rest of the time for activities linked with the Congress party of Gandhi and Nehru.

We are talking about 1920. There was no akali dal till that time. Neither there was any involvement of congress.

Interesting enough in the quote you gave from "Real Story of Liberation of Gurdwara Tarn Taran" where the author spares no attempt to malign Kartar Singh Jhabbar, even he does not use the sanatan myth of the Nihang jathedar being kicked out of Akal Takht.

Of course kartar singh jhabbar was a bully. he was always there to take credit that was not due to him.

He is the man who delivered a political speech inside Harmandir sahib.

Edited October 14, 2009 by singh2

[singh2]

For those interested in reading the one sided account of how bad and evil Kartar Singh Jhabbar was you can read the whole paper here-;

http://export.writer.zoho.com/public/adhillon/Akal---Independence-Movement---Liberation-of-Gurdwara-Tarn-Taran1/fullpage

Just remember that the writer is the grandson of Amar Singh Jhubal. Read how he places the whole blame for the clash at Tarn Taran on Kartar Singh Jhabbar and exonerates the Pujaris who had assaulted a woman at the complex a few days before and who had filled the complex with their hired goons many of whom were drunk.

Jhabal family was from the lineage of Mai Bhago. This is one of the families very well respected in Amritsar district. They were a far better lot than trouble maker jhabbar.Of course they had contributed a lot for gurudwara reform movement.

[singh2]

http://thesikhencyclopedia.com/sikh-reformist-movements/central-majha-khalsa-diwan.html?directory=1

CENTRAL MAJHA KHALSA DiWAN

CENTRAL MAJHA KHALSA DiWAN, also known as the Shiromani Panth MilauniJatha, was one of the several regional organizations that came into being on the eve of the Gurdwara reform movement of the 1920's. A Khalsa Diwan in the Majha area had in fact been established as early as 1904, but it had merged with the Chief Khalsa Diwan three years later. Upon its revival in 1918 as Central Majha Khalsa Diwan, it concerned itself mainly with reforming the ceremonial in Sikh holy places, especially at Tarn Taran and Amritsar. With its headquarters at Kiratangarh, near Amritsar, the Central Majha Khalsa Diwan claimed a membership of over 1200 amritdhari Sikhs from the central Majha districts of Lahore, Amritsar and Gurdaspur. The Diwan had a collegiate executive of five persons, called Panj Piare, elected at a plenary meeting held during March every year. Leaders from outside central Majha such as Kartar Singh Jhabbar from Sheikhupura bar area and Master Mota Singh from the Doaba also lent their support and participated in the meetings of the Diwan. Prominent among its own leaders were Jathedar Teja Singh Bhuchchar and the Jhabal brothers, Amar Singh, Sarmukh Singh andJaswant Singh. The modus operandi of the Diwan was to hold religious congregations at different places on important Sikh anniversaries and other festivals and to provide services of granthis, ragis and pracharaks for functions such as Akhand Paths, initiation ceremonies and marriages, etc. A regular feature was the monthly divan on amavasya, the last day of the dark half of the lunar month, within the precincts of the Darbar Sahib at Tarn Taran. The refrain of the Diwan speeches used to be criticism of the superstitious rites and ceremonies which had taken hold of the Sikh masses and of the malpractices in the administration of the shrines. The clerics in charge of the gurdwaras resented this reformist propaganda. Their per5i5tent opposition forced the Central Majha Diwan to change the venue of their monthly meeting in Tarn Taran from the Darbar Sahib to one of the nearby bungas. At the annual meeting of the Diwan held at the village of Bhuchchar in March 1919, Teja Singh Bhuchchar was elected Jathedar, with four others to assist him. A few days later, on 13 April 1919, occurred the Jallianvala Bagh tragedy in the holy city of Amritsar which sent a wave of shock and anger across the entire country. The Sikhs had a further cause for offence when they learnt that Brigadier General Dyer who had ordered the Amritsar shooting had been received and honoured by the Sarbarah, or manager and the priests of the Darbar Sahib and that an address of welcome had been presented to the LieutGovernor of the Punjab, Sir Michael O'Dwyer. A public agitation started against the Sarbarah. The Central Majha Khalsa Diwan took an active part in it and proposed social boycott of all those Sikhs who had been a party to the honour bestowed on General Dyer or to the address presented to the LieutGovernor. As the Gurdwara reform movement got under way, the Central Majha Khalsa Diwan was the first to swing into action. Its leaders, Jathedar Teja Singh Bhuchchar and Amar Singh Jhabal with a jatha of 25 reached Sialkot and liberated Gurdwara Babe di Ber on 56 October 1920. When Sri Akal Takht was occupied by the reformists on 12 October the same year, the Central Majha Khalsa Diwan offered to administer it, Teja Singh Bhuchchar becoming its first Jathedar. Amar Singh Jhabal accompanied Kartar Singh Jhabbar in November 1920 to liberate Gurdwara Panja Sahib at Hasan Abdal. Towards the end of November 1920, Gurdwara Bhai Joga Singh at Peshawar was taken over through the initiative of Teja Singh Bhuchchar. The Central Majha Khalsa Diwan lent full support to the Gurdwara Rikabganj agitation revived after the end of World War I. Sardul Singh Caveeshar asked, through the columns of the Akali, for 100 volunteers for a shahidijatha, i.e. band of martyrs, to march to Delhi and reconstruct on 1 December 1920 the demolished wall of Gurdwara Rikabganj if the government failed to restore it by that date. The Jhabal brothers endorsed the proposal, repeated the call at conventions held by the Central Majha Khalsa Diwan and enrolled volunteers for the jatha. The government, however, had the wall rebuilt before thcJ'atha intervened. When the Shiromani Akali Dal was formed, on 14 De cember 1920, to coordinate the work of regional Akali groups, Sarmukh Singh Jhabal of the Central Majha Khalsa Diwan was elected its first president. The reform of the administration of Sri Darbar Sahib at Tarn Taran had since the days of the Khalsa Diwan Majha (190407) been a live issue. On 26 January 1921, Jathedar Teja Singh Bhuchchar led a J'atha of 40 volunteers to Tarn Taran. Through the mediation of Bhai Mohan Singh Vaid negotiations began between the reformist Akalis and the clerics in control of the shrine, but they remained inconclusive. The latter resorted to force and suddenly fell upon Bhuchchar'SJ'atAa in the evening with lethal weapons. Nineteen Akalis were injured two of whom later died. Of these first two martyrs who died in the cause of Gurdwara reform, Bhai Hukam Singh of Vasaukot, in Gurdaspur district, was a member of the Central Majha Khalsa Diwan. The Darbar Sahib at Tarn Taran passed under Akali management. Then followed the massacre at Nankana Sahib (20 February 1921) and the transfer of the control of the gurdwaras there into the hands of the reformists. The Central Majha Khalsa Diwan deputed its volunteers to assist the gurdwara administration at Nankana Sahib for several months. It was there that in a meeting held in March 1921, the Majha Diwan approved a motion affiliating itself to the Shiromani Akali Dal. It also passed a resolution of noncooperation and called upon its members to withdraw their children from government schools. In spite of its affiliation to the Shiromani. Akali Dal, the Central Majha Khalsa Diwan maintained its autonomous entity. At its annual elections held in April 1921, Sarmukh Singh Jhabal, with four others, was chosen Jathedar. The members of the Diwan continued to participate in the Akali campaign for the release of Sikh shrines from the control of a corrupt priestly order. During the Guru ka Bagh Morcha, the Diwan sent a batch of 110 volunteers to face, under a vow of nonviolent passive resistance, the police beating on 1 September 1922. With the emergence of the Shiromani Akali Dal as a viable political party, the Central Majha Khalsa Diwan, like other regional bodies, lost much of its relevance. Some members left it altogether, while others were absorbed in the district Akali jathas which now formed constituent branches of the Shiromani Akali Dal. There are still some carrying on under the old banner, holding fast to their old schedule of monthly congregations at Tarn Taran on the day ofamavasya. 1. Mohinder Singh, The Akali Movement. Delhi, 1978

2. Sahni, Ruchi Ram, Struggle for Reform in Sikh Shrines. Ed. Ganda Singh. Amritsar, n.d.

3. Pratap Singh, Giani, Gurdwara Sudhar arthat Akali Lahir. Amritsar, 1975

4. Josh, Sohan Singh, Akali Morchian da Itihas. Delhi, 1972

[Mithar]

Singh2 brother, if you can then please read the book Sandhalbar dha ithihas, virk athe hor. This book gives a very detailed account of the life of many great Sikhs from the Sandhalbar area including Kartar Singh Jhabbar. Lineage means nothing for the Sikhs, just because Jhubal family is from lineage of Mai Bhago does not mean much to a Sikh. As Tony jee mentioned the Jhubal family was instrumental in creating division within the Panth by pushing Sikhs towards the Congress of Nehru and Gandhi. Kartar Singh Jhabbar was a lion of a man, and the Jhubal family today is rewriting history to play down the role of Kartar Singh Jhabbar in order to hide their own family's truth. The Akali movement is one of the proudest chapters of Sikh history of the 20th century. Today you will also find plenty of traitors within the Panth also rewriting history making Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindrawala and other great Sikh martyrs look bad. A lot of this rewriting of history is usually done by politicians and policemen or their family members. Jhubal family is no different. Kartar Singh Jabbar was a man who was respected by the entire Panth, and to this day the Panth honours him just as they honour other great Akali leaders of that time period.

[Mithar]

As for the Nihangs being in charge of Akal Takht during the 1920s is nothing short of a myth. The Nihangs lost their control during Khalsa Raj right after the Shaheedi of Akali Phula Singh Jee. By the time the British had taken over the Nihangs were almost insignificant in terms of being a formidable armed group. Their glory days ended with the Shaheedi of Akali Phula Singh Jee. After Akali Phula Singh, you will hardly ever see any reference to Nihangs.

[HSD1]

if you are able to read any Gurmukhi why dont you demonstarate as much? if you can 'put it into action' where is this evident from your demeanor? i feel nauseated even communicating with half the people on this board.

I could say the same of you. If you feel so easily nauseated by a bunch of sikhs on the internet I suggest you go out and get a life, it might do you some good.

you have to 'breakdown' my comments to give your 'answers' shows the kind of mentality we are dealing with here. with you the fact is that you start 'mouthing off' when presented with any arguement.

It seems you think that any form of response to you is idiotic, rather than seeing how easily your points are quashed. I will reply to your posts in any manner I see fit, especially in light of your own mouthing off. Have you looked up the word hypocrite in the dictionary yet?

you can reread yourself what you wrote, it looks like mentally ill person wrote it. you think that because there was idols in/around SGGS it proves that the sikh panth was going to be destroyed as part of some hindu 'plan'? you must feel embarrased for presenting such stupid arguements hence the aggression. so tell me what was this plan, was SGGS going to eventually replaced by a idol too? you have not even responded to the fact that they were in the periphery. people on this site cannot seem to follow a line of argument. they just dash from one thing to another. acting like that is called desperation, not dicussion.

Yes, you are mentally ill. Like I said in my previous posts, change does not take place overnight. Gradual changes are more effective. You have not followed any logic in your comments. You dash from one thing to another. Your desperation is even more obvious due to your hypocritical mindset.

Stop crying. Seriously, you are one of the worst projectionists i have come across. See a psychiatrist.

For the record, i am no fan of Singh Sabha as can be seen by my posts on other threads and forums. But you're to stupid to accept any form of contradictory commentary. Hence the comments on your agenda.

the sad fact is that all you have to do is read some hindu/muslim forum you see how generally more intelligent they tend to be then this and other sikh forums. even sadder but i bet most of you reguarly are reading some muslim or hindu forums.

Yes, they are also heavily moderated in order to give this effect. Anyway, plenty of muslims and hindus, like yourself, read sikh forums, so what's your problem?

Gurbani can only be mispresented /incorrectly quoted by partially quoting or mistranslating. how will this present itself if someone approaches SGGS direct? and how is going to some other forum to be presented with twisted interpretation different form going to some sikh forum to get the same thing? you do not think sikh forums are doing the same thing?

Are they? Or are they correcting the junk on the other forums? Like i said, an idiot is an idiot. If he applies himself to Gurbani, something will probably go wrong, as you may know from your own life story.

when i say 'literal' i mean adhering to the original wording in original context. duh! funny the examples you pick is not what 'sikh scholars' tend to pick up on when telling peole their nonesense, because they are self evident. they tend to pick up on othr stuff. but you probably know at least this much.

Well give examples of what you're on about then rather than screaming like a hindu widow on fire.

Am I talking about Hindustan or Islamic republic? again idiots ont his stupid site cannot comprehend anything without comparing it to Hindus or Muslims. are you really so psychologically retarded? Sorry but when i say religion i mean Sikhi with its own terms of reference. Its your desperation to be like other religions that is part of your insecurity. 'we sikhs'? Typicall modern mentallity of you idiots to say 'we' when refering to people of past.

Again with the psychology/ideology crap. Maybe you should stop quoting your AS textbooks. Anyway it is clear you have a major problem, which can only be sorted out with serious medical help. So who were the sikhs of the past? Hindus? Sikhi is clearly a religion of the real world, not a load of hindu mumbo jumbo cow droppings.

its your sad paranoia that i or anyone else has some agenda to 'stamp out sikh idenity'. stop imaging things you coward.

Again with the coward. I told you before, say it to my face otherwise you are the coward, giving it large and stupid on the internet like the sad pathetic freak you are.

P.S. Its not my fault if Macauliff played such a central role in Singh Sabha. and if you are so secure in your knowledge of 'sikh identity' why do you have cling so much on Singh Sabha to affirm it? did actual 'sikh identity' only come into existance 100 years ago?

Again, i do not cling to singh sabha. Hell my comments have so annoyed petty hindus like you who want to blame everything on people like Macauliffe who had little to do with singh sabha. Your ignorance is probable the cause of your sickness.

let me show you:

go to: http://www.patshahi1...erhs&Itemid=106

this is apparently the oldest Bir of Dasam Granth. If you scroll down you will see they have typed up teh actual wording (in black and red font) and you will note that it says PaatiSaah not PaatiShaah (Sassa not Shasha).

i read in a sikh grammar book about shasha, zazza, etc being introduced in 1800.

LOL! So singh sabha existed in 1800? God you are a retard. Thankyou for the entertainment. Have a read of this whilst your crying into your keyboard: http://www.patshahi10.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=255:raj-karega-khalsa&catid=34:english&Itemid=63

Edited October 14, 2009 by HSD

[singh2]

Singh2 brother, if you can then please read the book Sandhalbar dha ithihas, virk athe hor. This book gives a very detailed account of the life of many great Sikhs from the Sandhalbar area including Kartar Singh Jhabbar. Lineage means nothing for the Sikhs, just because Jhubal family is from lineage of Mai Bhago does not mean much to a Sikh. As Tony jee mentioned the Jhubal family was instrumental in creating division within the Panth by pushing Sikhs towards the Congress of Nehru and Gandhi. Kartar Singh Jhabbar was a lion of a man, and the Jhubal family today is rewriting history to play down the role of Kartar Singh Jhabbar in order to hide their own family's truth. The Akali movement is one of the proudest chapters of Sikh history of the 20th century. Today you will also find plenty of traitors within the Panth also rewriting history making Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindrawala and other great Sikh martyrs look bad. A lot of this rewriting of history is usually done by politicians and policemen or their family members. Jhubal family is no different. Kartar Singh Jabbar was a man who was respected by the entire Panth, and to this day the Panth honours him just as they honour other great Akali leaders of that time period.

Mithar ji

kartar singh Jhabbar had a very minimal role. he was not from majha area and was considered as an intruder to gain popularity. He is the one who broke maryada of harmndir sahib by giving a political speech inside. He was more of a bully than a strategist.

The question here is salnder of Nihungs being carried out in a systematic way. Let us not bring santan site when we discuss Nihungs.When we talk about Nihungs we talk about Nihungs of Punjab. They were the ones who did a yoeman's service for expanding sikh rule during maharaja's time. They are a respected sect of sikhs.why are they being labelled as traitors by some vested interests. that is what i am obejecting to. They are not political people but a religious sect. hence it is ignorance to expect them to fight political battles.

[singh2]

As for the Nihangs being in charge of Akal Takht during the 1920s is nothing short of a myth. The Nihangs lost their control during Khalsa Raj right after the Shaheedi of Akali Phula Singh Jee. By the time the British had taken over the Nihangs were almost insignificant in terms of being a formidable armed group. Their glory days ended with the Shaheedi of Akali Phula Singh Jee. After Akali Phula Singh, you will hardly ever see any reference to Nihangs.

I have given a quote from the book of a french traveller who went to punjab in 1831 and he testifies Nihungs being in control of akal takhat.

Their role dwindled after 1849 when british took over Punjab. But nevertheless there are very strong and genuine Nihung jathebandis in Punjab and Haryana notably Nihungs of tarna dal led by Nihal singh, Baba Bidhi Chand nihung sikhs led by Baba daya singh ji. They are the ones who marched to aid of Sant Bhindrewale when he was encircled in harmandir sahib in 1984 and were strafed by army Helicopters in the vicinity of Amritsar. Where were so called akali dal leaders of panth that time? Reliigous people are always a shade above political people as they stand for truth. What have this akali dal achieved for panth so far. Nothing.

One sikh went to meet Acharya vinobha bhave in 1940s. Vinobha bhave told him that sikhism was a great religion but it is going to be corrupted and will lose its glory in future. Sikh asked him why? he told that british ahd enacted SGPC act whre winners will be decided by votes. That is going to corrupt sikhs as lies, bribery and enticement will become order of the day voting process. Time is proving how correct he was.If one injustice is committed in the name of religion it weakens religious instutitions

in the long run. So opportunists can never take the religion to heights of glory. In sikhism we have opporurnist controlling the affairs of sikhs. Nihungs are a thousand times better than these people.

[singh2]

Singh2 brother, if you can then please read the book Sandhalbar dha ithihas, virk athe hor. This book gives a very detailed account of the life of many great Sikhs from the Sandhalbar area including Kartar Singh Jhabbar. Lineage means nothing for the Sikhs, just because Jhubal family is from lineage of Mai Bhago does not mean much to a Sikh. As Tony jee mentioned the Jhubal family was instrumental in creating division within the Panth by pushing Sikhs towards the Congress of Nehru and Gandhi. Kartar Singh Jhabbar was a lion of a man, and the Jhubal family today is rewriting history to play down the role of Kartar Singh Jhabbar in order to hide their own family's truth. The Akali movement is one of the proudest chapters of Sikh history of the 20th century. Today you will also find plenty of traitors within the Panth also rewriting history making Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindrawala and other great Sikh martyrs look bad. A lot of this rewriting of history is usually done by politicians and policemen or their family members. Jhubal family is no different. Kartar Singh Jabbar was a man who was respected by the entire Panth, and to this day the Panth honours him just as they honour other great Akali leaders of that time period.

Jhabal brothers did not create any division among sikhs. They joined congress in later years in 1940s. so did almost many other other sikhs including Teja singh Bhauchar ( a friend of jhabbar), Ishar singh majhail, Mohan singh nagoke, teja singh Akarpuri, partap singh kairon etc etc. tey were all prominent memebers of akali dal and many of them were jathedars of akal takhat also. By far Jhabal family was a gentleman family in the whole region.

[tonyhp32]

Singh2,

Please stop spreading your ignorance. Amar Singh Jhubal joined the Congress party in 1919 and was instrumental in organising the grass roots of the party in rural areas of Punjab but mostly in Amritsar district. While the Akali movement was at it's height, he was the president of the District Congress Committee for Amritsar district. How else could the party of Banias and Brahmins get so strong amongst Sikhs in Punjab. It was due to the organising abilities of people like Jhubal that by 1946 elections in Punjab the Congress won 10 seats reserved for Sikhs whilst the Akali Dal won only 23 reserved Sikh seats. You obviously have some sort of agenda and a poor sense of history. You want to push back the Jhubal involvement with the Congress to the 1940s as that was when it became common for many Sikhs to associate with the Congress but Jhubal was one of the main reasons that Congress got such strong support from Sikhs. While the Muslim vote was being consolidated in the Muslim league, the Sikh vote was being divided and thus ensured that Nehru could treat the Akali Dal as a minor party as he could count on his puppets like Jhubal the original 'Congressi Sikh'

Why do you persist like a broken record to bring up writings from the 1830s when they are not relevant to the question at hand. You jump from the 1830s to 1984 as if that will prove the point. For each Nihang in 1984 who did something positive for the Panth there were ten others who went with the government. Sahib Singh in 1920 and Santa Singh in 1984, both sought to subvert the Sikh movements of their day, both sought to bring back the Nihang Jathedari over Akal Takht. The Sikhs in 1920 were able to get their hands on Sahib Singh and beat his ambition out of him. No doubt given the anger of Sikhs at Santa Singh's antics, had they been able to get pasr the cigarette smoking CRPF security of Santa Singh whilst he was at Akal Takht they too would have beaten him senseless.

But lets not divert the thread. Either provide proof of a Nihang Jathedar being in charge at Akal Takht in 1920 or shut up. It's that simple.

[Mithar]

Mithar ji

kartar singh Jhabbar had a very minimal role. he was not from majha area and was considered as an intruder to gain popularity. He is the one who broke maryada of harmndir sahib by giving a political speech inside. He was more of a bully than a strategist.

Kartar Singh Jhabbar like most Virks was from SandhalBar now in Pakistan. Sandhal bar is the area between the Ravi and Chenab while Majha is the area between Satluj and Ravi. Unlike the Sikh settlers from all over Punjab who settled down Sandhalbar in the famous canal colonies, the Virks of Sandhalbar were the native locals of that region.

While the new Sikh settlers who were actually from diverse bachgrounds began to be regarded as Majhails, but the Virks of Sandhalbar never regarded themselves as Majhails. They were a proud people and proud of their region. The Virks would never marry with the Majhails. To bridge this difference Jathadar Teja Singh Samundhari married a girl from his family to a boy from Kartar Singh Jhabbar’s family. At the time this was a very big deal because Virks of Sandhalbar would rarely marry with those they considered as non locals while the Majhails who were an equally proud people would never marry their daughters outside of Majha. Now it is a difference matter, but back then Majhails would only have done this because of the immense respect they held for Kartar Singh Jhabbar who was respected by the entire panth for his Seva and legendary bravery.

[singh2]

Singh2,

You have been given the reference wherein Jahbal brothers were memebers of Central majha diwan in 1920.Here is another refrence of them being the jathedar at birth of akali party in 1920.

http://thesikhencyclopedia.com/sikh-political-institutions-and-movements/akali-dal-shiromani.html?directory=1

These proposals were discussed at a meeting of leading activists in front of the Akal Takht on 14 December 1920. It was decided to form a central dal, corps or contingent, of which Sarmukh Singh Jhabal was designated the first jathedar (president). This date (14 December 1920) is generally accepted to be the date of the formation of the Shiromani Akali Dal, although the title shJ`romamwas added only through a resolution passed by the Dal on 29 March 1922.

Unquote

You say he joined Congress in 1919. History reveals that he was made president of SGPC in July 1922.

Can you give reference for your above false statement.

You have been given the reference that nihungs were in control of Akal takhat till 1925. They did not follow the formal tradition of naming a akal takhat jathedar.

Now You give me the refrence by furnishing name of jathedar of akal takhat immediate before 1920.

Edited October 15, 2009 by singh2

[singh2]

Kartar Singh Jhabbar like most Virks was from SandhalBar now in Pakistan. Sandhal bar is the area between the Ravi and Chenab while Majha is the area between Satluj and Ravi. Unlike the Sikh settlers from all over Punjab who settled down Sandhalbar in the famous canal colonies, the Virks of Sandhalbar were the native locals of that region.

While the new Sikh settlers who were actually from diverse bachgrounds began to be regarded as Majhails, but the Virks of Sandhalbar never regarded themselves as Majhails. They were a proud people and proud of their region. The Virks would never marry with the Majhails. To bridge this difference Jathadar Teja Singh Samundhari married a girl from his family to a boy from Kartar Singh Jhabbar’s family. At the time this was a very big deal because Virks of Sandhalbar would rarely marry with those they considered as non locals while the Majhails who were an equally proud people would never marry their daughters outside of Majha. Now it is a difference matter, but back then Majhails would only have done this because of the immense respect they held for Kartar Singh Jhabbar who was respected by the entire panth for his Seva and legendary bravery.

Mithar ji

I know about Virks. They were mainly from Gurjranwala district. They were known for criminal tendencies.

It was a common knowledge in Punjab of those years that people used to be careful not to cling to exterior of trains while passing through Gujranawala enroute to Amawas gatherings as virks used to take turbans off by flinging a branch of a tree.

sikhism does not accord any special status to any caste. All sikhs have martial traditions.

[singh2]

As for the Nihangs being in charge of Akal Takht during the 1920s is nothing short of a myth. The Nihangs lost their control during Khalsa Raj right after the Shaheedi of Akali Phula Singh Jee. By the time the British had taken over the Nihangs were almost insignificant in terms of being a formidable armed group. Their glory days ended with the Shaheedi of Akali Phula Singh Jee. After Akali Phula Singh, you will hardly ever see any reference to Nihangs.

Mithar ji

Contributions of nihungs for sikhism are too many to be marginalized by a few.This is far from truth that nihungs had suddenly become irrelevant group after Akali phula singh ji.As written earlier that nihungs by and large refused to lay down their arms after british took residency in punjab after first sikh war.That year was 1846.

british had issued orders that arms be surrendred. Resisitance of this order was demonstrated by Ganga singh a nihung sikh who took positon with other Nihungs in akal takhat with their weapons. When british came after him he resisted the entry of british soldiers who entered with shoes on. In the process Nihungs killed a Subedar of british army and wounded a few others including Commandant.Nihung Ganga singh and two others were hanged for this.Six others were imprisoned for life.The names of them were

Bhag Singh, Kharg Singh, Mustan Singh, Heera Singh, Hookum Singh, and Jawanhar Singh.

Sir john lawerence British resident Of lahore wrote on 19th February, 1848, to the Secretary Government of India, Foreign Department, Fort William (Calcutta), that these Nihang Sikhs (then called Akalees) had won the admiration of the Sikh masses and “these Akalees are looked up to with respect and even reverence by the Sikh population of the Punjab"

Jolted by the sacrifice of these nihungs John lawerence ordered dated March 24th, 1847, that by order of governor - general british subjects are forbidden to enter the temple or its surroundings or indeed any temple with shoes on.

The eaxact order reads as follows

“The priests of Amritsar having complained of annoyances, this is made known to all concerned, that by order of the Governor General, British subjects are forbidden to enter the temple (called the durbar) or its precincts at Amritsar, or indeed any temple, with their shoes. Nor are the Sikhs to be molested, or in any way to be interfered with. Shoes are to be taken off at the bunga at the corner of the tank and no person is to walk round the tank with his shoes on.

H.M. Lawrence, Resident

Unquote

This was a great example of bravery on the part of Nihung sikhs when the general sikh populace was under fear. Their was a symbolic resistance like Baba gurbakhash singh ji who faced Ahmed shah and Bhaibdrewale who face Indian army. The above is all in legislative records of punjab. Brave communities safeguard their heritage instead of destroying those.

[tonyhp32]

Singh 2 wrote-;

You say he joined Congress in 1919. History reveals that he was made president of SGPC in July 1922.

Can you give reference for your above false statement.

Below is from a paper written by Amar Singh Jhubal's grandson. For someone who keeps trying to talk up Jhubal you don't know much about him.

Educated in Khalsa College, Amritsar, Sardar Amar Singh Jhubal had served as thanedar4 for nine years in North Western Frontier Province police force. He had resigned in 1917 in protest against the insulting behaviour of his British officer towards Indians. Sight of blood and death in Jallianwala Bagh in 1919 massacre had set Sardar Amar Singh Jhubal on the path of struggle for freedom along with both his brothers. He joined the Indian National Congress the same year. He organized the first-ever political conference in the rural areas of Punjab in July 1920 at the large village Vachhoa in Amritsar district adjoining to the smaller village Dial Bharang where too he had substantial lands. He was helped by his friends S. Dan Singh of Vachhoa, another big landlord of the area, and the Zaildar5 of Sudhar, another adjoining village, S. Harnam Singh, with whose only daughter he later betrothed his only son Dr. Upkar Singh Jhubal when they were together in jail. The Vachhoa conference had not only given a push to the Indian National Congress in rural Punjab, it had also started what developed into the Gurdwara Reforms Movement in Punjab, later also called the Akali Movement.

Singh 2 wrote-;

You have been given the reference that nihungs were in control of Akal takhat till 1925. They did not follow the formal tradition of naming a akal takhat jathedar.

Now You give me the refrence by furnishing name of jathedar of akal takhat immediate before 1920.

You gave a reference from a mickey mouse website. There was no Jathedar at Akal takht from the time of the British annexation until Teja Singh Bhuchar was made jathedar by the Akalis in 1920. You were asked to give a reference and you have failed miserably. I am surprised that MDS and Shaheediyan haven't been able to pull out any references. So it looks like Sahib Singh and his Nihangs attempted to seize the Akal Takht from the Akalis who had only a few days before taken it over from the Pujabris who were under the control of the Sarbrah. The Nihangs came from Burj Akali Phoola Singh which is over a mile away from Akal Takht. Under the Sarbrah the Nihangs like other Sikhs could visit Akal Takht but they had no special status or custodianship over it. This is history.

I would expect Neo to apologise for speading the bukwas story told to him by a Nihang that the Akali removed Sahib Singh from Akal takht of which he was the Jathedar and used women to beat him as they knew that he would not fight back against the women. That story has been shown here to be false. Over to you Neo.

Edited October 15, 2009 by tonyhp32

[Malwe Da Sher]

You were asked to give a reference and you have failed miserably. I am surprised that MDS and Shaheediyan haven't been able to pull out any references. So it looks like Sahib Singh and his Nihangs attempted to seize the Akal Takht from the Akalis who had only a few days before taken it over from the Pujabris who were under the control of the Sarbrah. The Nihangs came from Burj Akali Phoola Singh which is over a mile away from Akal Takht. Under the Sarbrah the Nihangs like other Sikhs could visit Akal Takht but they had no special status or custodianship over it. This is history.

I would expect Neo to apologise for speading the bukwas story told to him by a Nihang that the Akali removed Sahib Singh from Akal takht of which he was the Jathedar and used women to beat him as they knew that he would not fight back against the women. That story has been shown here to be false. Over to you Neo.

LOL calm down dear you have been given a reference to an account of a Bibi beating up baba Sahib Singh and I refernced Giani Kirpal Singh, ex Jathedar of Akal Takht who writes that the Nihang Singhs were custodians of Akal Takht up until 1920.

Edited October 15, 2009 by Malwe Da Sher

[singh2]

;

Provide the link. how can a person join congress in 1919 when he became president of SGPC in 1922. On top of that there was no congress in Punjab that time.

Now you are twisting the issue. The fact that there was no title of jathedar prior to 1920 proves that starting from dal khalsa onwards sikhs were conducting gurmattas by calling sarbat khalsa.

have not you read the statement of john lawerence British Resident of Punjab ordering the status quo in respect of religious centres. this statement was issued after confrontation between Nihungs and british army at akal takhat.

Instead of writing your nonsense give us the refrenece.You are weaving your fancy tales and pitting nihungs against akal takhat. had it been so they would not have been mentioned as one of the memebers controlling harmandir sahib complex vi8de a Hukmanam issued by Central khalsa diwan ( who later became akalis) in 1920.

That is a personal bakwas coming from someone who has an agenda to discredit a great sect of sikhs. You have made only personal satements here and in the absence of any credible refrence it is your personal opinion. personal opinions do not count when digging into history.

Edited October 15, 2009 by singh2