Tune About The Caste System Within The Quom

[dalsingh101]

This guy actually has a decent flow unlike any other Sikh guy I've heard trying this stuff.......useful to get through to the 'yoofs' I imagine.

[shaheediyan]

Video reponse to "Tune About The Caste System Within The Quom".

Just so the subject can be put into context somewhat, also so we can laugh at the bumbling idiot called 'notorious jatt'.

[dalsingh101]

That Notorious Bewakoof was going on about Jatts being Fair skinned and whatnot when he was pretty savlaah himself??!?! That preoccupation with light skin is embarassing in this day and age. I noticed what looked like an Al Jazeera log at the start. I wonder what the original complete piece was like?

Whoever edited that video is a bewakoof too. I noticed they had dubbed in 'canned laughter' when anyone 'low caste' was speaking.

I would like to ask all the people who consider themselves Jats on the forum if they propaagate that pseudo-supremacist bull5hite at home and ask them to explain it to me. Is it not the ugliest form of letting your ego run riot and does it not divide the panth like nothing else?

Please come out of the closet and speak about it folks.

[HSD1]

Caste-ism is a seriously worrying problem. The other day i bought myself a red polo shirt which my mum went nuts about. Why? Because she said that only chamars wore red shirts. I needed to sit down to get over hearing this from my own parent. I pointed out to her that Manchester United wear red shirts so they must be chamars as well (she's a glory hunter, where as i dont like them). I hope that was enough sense in what i said to stop her saying something so stupid again.

[bhooliya]

There is a major difference between Indian caste system and Punjabi village caste system. Punjabi caste system is not that old. Punjabi people were mostly peasants and their "Zamindar" title is not that old with the exception of few the ones who were puppets of Governments whether Muslim or British.

I believe that "Jatts" are getting bad names due to their majority of numbers within Sikhs. I have seen Sikhs from Khatri, Kamboj, Tarkhans, Saini and other castes discriminating against other communities. In my research, I have seen that so-called "Ravidassi" ( Chamar) Balmiki ( Churrah) hold the same caste conscious mind.

It is very common in Ravidas Temple that they will force you to call Bhagat Ravidas, Guru or you don't get the time to sing Gurbani or lecture on their stage. Don't you think it is hypocrisy on their part?

I think our new generation should not allow this caste based discrimination and treat everyone as brothers and sisters. I believe that having surname is not bad but superiority or inferiority complex on the basis of our ancestral background is just not in the context of Sikhism.

Here is one more for balance:

[shaheediyan]

Thanks for sharing that HSD. This is one of the underlying reasons jaath ahankaar continues to exist, because our people are always brushing our friends and family's attitudes under the carpet, its big of you to share your family experience here, I would be shocked if most people here have not heard these types of prejudiced comments from family members at one point or another. We deem them harmless, because the people that same them do not really hate, its just the reminants of the of nonsense that was drummed into their head when they were young.

We should always tackle any type of prejudice/insult to others - be it faith/race/caste head on.

[HSD1]

The thing is, on SikhSangat i discussed this topic with dalsingh often before we both got banned. He believed that caste-ism should be confronted openly and those who consider themselves jatts before sikhs should be handled a lot more strictly. I, on the other hand, thought that this would drive most of these views underground i.e. people would still think along caste lines but not admit to it - similar to how racism has changed in the uk from confrontation to discrimination. What happened with the red shirt has showed me that the problem of caste is a lot more sinister in the way it exists. All my life i have never heard anything like that from my mum, and she did not expect me to be so annoyed by what she said. My worry is that my retort wont change her views; she can just avoid saying these things in front of me but carry on in front of the rest of our family or friends. My view now is that more needs to be done, but what we do shouldnt be so vicious that it gives the caste-ists to chance to cry 'victim'. The biggest thing is to stop it spreading from the older generation to the younger ones. Caste doesnt matter in our community, but some people can use the issue to twist people to their side, especially when deciding who will run gurudwaras. The youth need to be told that our Gurus did many things: travelled the world, learnt other languages, befriended good people regardless of their background, fought in battles, had children etc, but they never ever discriminated on the basis of caste. Also, dividing along caste lines allows us to be exploited by outsiders. Simple points like that will make it harder for the older generation to pass their crap on. I would also like to hear if anyone has any strategies to overcome caste discrimination.

[dalsingh101]

You make some valid points there HSD. Personally though, from my experience, the caste thing can't get much worse from where I am standing. I think caste would best be attacked overtly and directly instead of beating around the bushes. You talk of it going underground but in reality it pretty much has been for ages now. For the last few decades at least (possibly longer) Sikhs have been living a charade whereas they on one hand extol the anti-caste stance of Sikhi, whilst practicing inter-caste obnoxiousness at ground level. If fighting this means bending a few noses out of joint, then we shouldn't hesitate to do it. Truth is that the quom would probably be much better off without the type of people who hold haughty views based on assumed superiority anyway. These kinds of people usually have many other ego based problems as result including an incapability for empathy.

I know about deeply ingrained attitudes as you described. One thing that always perplexed me was the way my mother, who was otherwise quite understanding and compassionate about oppression, would freely use certain caste names/labels like they were swear words. When I tried to explain what was wrong with this it barely seemed to register. Plus I got the standard nonsense about how 'they' now have preference for employment through quotas and whatnot. I got her to stop doing it in the end though.

Breaking that transmission between generations is not relevant in my eyes. I know enough of the younger generation who are even more obnoxious than their parents. What is funny however, is how certain kids are pushed to have beliefs of superiority over others, when the reality is that they have no apparent talent or characteristics that justify this anyway. Plus even if they did, putting that down to caste is as logical to putting it down to the colour of your eyes. How much of what we are is the result of biology, how much environment? If one thing can be guaranteed, it is that rabh builds genetic variance into humans (apart from identical twins) so characteristics within any group vary, sometimes dramatically.

The main problem with the caste thing is that in the effort to create feelings of superiority, negative tensions in the community are caused that periodically spill out. One thing that has to be faced is that many Jat people are trying their utmost to position themselves as the high caste of Sikhs, Jat people not acknowledging this are essentially covertly supporting it. I don't see any other section of the quom trying to do this as desperately as the Jat brothers.The people who fail to admit this are essentially identical to goray who deny or underplay racism, probably to keep the status quo and protect their own ego, which is constantly telling them how great a people they are.

There is no choice but to face this head on. If we don't do it, one of the core and most important principles of our common faith will be missing from our society. It will then essentially be a microcosm of Hindu society then. That's another thing people forget in the dogma of the religion, this thing was meant to help us build a fair society. A model society. That is what kids need to be taught to practice the most.

Edited November 19, 2009 by dalsingh101

[HSD1]

Your views are valid but the recent split between 'ravidassias' and the rest of us has showed me that big, decisive gaps do exist among our nation. These can be solved with the carrot more so than a stick. In the future, outsiders will continue to exploit these divisions and it will probably be along moneh/amritdhari lines. Many amritdharis dont consider moneh as sikhs and use words like 'jatts' or 'punjabis' to describe them. Pissing people off will only cause enough friction to make being an 'agnostic jatts/punjabis' acceptable. But i'm no mystic meg either, so who knows what will happen in the future. It doesnt really matter how we solve the caste problem, as long as it's solved one way or the other.

We also have to face that its not only jatts doing it all. A fair few of the handful of khatris i ever knew have had some retarded theories that sikhi is a 'pure aryan khatri religion' that was diluted by mass conversions of the common jatt. Superiority in jatts is bizarre. It is like those white chavs who think that just because they are white they are the best and deserve more benefits. Seeing brown people doing well upsets them because it contradicts their stereotypes. Caste-ism is a lot like racism. As we are the jatts we are taking the role of the white majority in this scenario. This leads to interesting parallels, especially with regards to how to combat the discrimination. Just like some sikhs say there is no caste, the whites can pretend that racism does not exist. With that in mind, if you were white, how would you combat racism in your own community/country? Think the answers through and then apply the same answers to casteism in sikhs. I would be interested to hear what others come up with on this.

If anyone wants to call themselves a jat they will at least need basic farming experience. All ramgarhias will need a C or higher in their woodwork GCSE in order to associate with their caste.

Edited November 19, 2009 by HSD