Are The Sikhs Hindus?

[bhooliya]

The writer teaches history at Miranda House, New Delhi. She comes from the Punjabi Brahmin family.

http://www.hinduonnet.com/2003/03/04/stories/2003030400951000.htm

Edited January 22, 2010 by bhooliya

[Weedol]

If you are from India, professing any particular religion does not change your gotra, varn, vansh, etc. These characteristics show where a person is from and their lineage, and are protection against inbreeding. Even today, older people in Iran call Pakistan, Bangladesh, India all 'Hendostan' and the people from these places 'Hendovi' or 'Hendi'.

[sanjhk]

Sat sri akal

waheguru.....its answer is in Sri guru granth sahib ji.

find it

sat sri akal

[Akaal_Das]

The writer teaches history at Miranda House, New Delhi. She comes from the Punjabi Brahmin family.

http://www.hinduonnet.com/2003/03/04/stories/2003030400951000.htm

Hindu: In the Guru Granth Sahib it is written “Hindu Salahee Salah”, meaning all praise to Hindus (Vaar Aasa, Ang 465).

Sikh: Dear Hindu, do not try to deceive Sikhs by quoting half a phrase. In this hymn the Guru has not described the greatness of the Hindus. Consider it clearly, the hymn says:

Shalok, First Mehl:

The Muslims praise the Islamic law; they read and reflect upon it.

The Lord's bound servants are those who bind themselves to see the Lord's Vision.

The Hindus praise the Praiseworthy Lord; the Blessed Vision of His Darshan, His form is incomparable.

They bathe at sacred shrines of pilgrimage, making offerings of flowers, and burning incense before idols.

The Yogis meditate on the absolute Lord there; they call the Creator the Unseen Lord.

But to the subtle image of the Immaculate Name, they apply the form of a body.

In the minds of the virtuous, contentment is produced, thinking about their giving.

They give and give, but ask a thousand-fold more, and hope that the world will honor them.

The thieves, adulterers, perjurers, evil-doers and sinners

- after using up what good karma they had, they depart; have they done any good deeds here at all?

There are beings and creatures in the water and on the land, in the worlds and universes, form upon form.

Whatever they say, You know; You care for them all.

O Nanak, the hunger of the devotees is to praise You; the True Name is their only support.

They live in eternal bliss, day and night; they are the dust of the feet of the virtuous. ||1||

Where is the greatness of the Hindu religion in the above hymn?

Hindu: Guru Gobind Singh in his Chhants calls Sikhs as Hindus.

ਸਗਲ ਜਗਤ ਮੇਂ ਖਾਲਸਾ ਪੰਥ ਗਾਜੈ । ਜਗੈ ਧਰਮ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਸਗਲ ਦੁੰਦ ਭਾਜੈ ।

“In the whole world will roar the Khalsa Panth. Hindu dharma will flourish and all else will disappear.”

My dear Khalsa friend, Sikh religion is a Panth (sect) of Hindus as are Bairagis etc. they are not a Quam (distinct identity). In fact, you are making noise for nothing because you do not understand the meaning of Quam and Panth (sect). Only that is a Quam that is large in number but you are only a few million.

Sikh: My dear Hindu friend, the Chhant is not of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. It is written of Bhai Sukha Singh, a priest of Patna and devotee of Durga. Those who are familiar with the writings of Guru Gobind Singh Ji recognize that words used in the given source were never used by the Guru Ji in his poetry.

Still if you believe that the Chhants are the writings of Guru Gobind Singh Ji then read the following which convey just the opposite meaning:

ਮੜ੍ਹੀ ਗੋਰ ਦੇਵਲ ਮਸੀਤਾਂ ਗਿਰਾਯੰ । ਤੁਹੀਂ ਏਕ ਅਕਾਲ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਜਪਾਯੰ ।

Graves, Hindu temples and Mosques be destroyed and that only Eternal, Hari is to be worshiped.

ਮਿਟੇਂ ਵੇਦ ਸ਼ਾਸਤ੍ਰ ਅਠਾਰਾਂ ਪੁਰਾਨਾ । ਮਿਟੇਂ ਬਾਂਗ ਸਲਵਾਤ ਸੁੰਨਤ ਕੁਰਾਨਾਂ ।

That all Vedas, Shashtras and Puranas to be destroyed. Destroy prayer call, circumcision and Quran.

ਸਗਲ ਜਗਤ ਮੇਂ ਖਾਲਸਾ ਪੰਥ ਗਾਜੈ । ਜਗੈ ਧਰਮ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਸਗਲ ਦੁੰਦ ਭਾਜੈ ।

In the whole world will roar the Khalsa Panth. Dharma will flourish and all else ‘Dund’ (Hindu and Islam) will disappear.

Now will you please tell me, what is that Hindu dharma in support of which you quote these Chhants and that Dharma will prevail after all the Hindu temples, Shashtras, Puranas have been destroyed? You also know the meaning of the word ‘Dund’. It means no other religion remains, Hindu or Moslem. Only Khalsa Panth will remain. Moreover you have said that Sikhi is a sect not a Quam. We quote one more Chhant.

ਦੁਹੂੰ ਪੰਥ ਮੇਂ ਕਪਟ ਵਿਦਯਾ ਚਲਾਨੀ । ਬਹੁਰ ਤੀਸਰਾ ਪੰਥ ਕੀਜੈ ਪ੍ਰਧਾਨੀ ।

There is too much corruption in the two religions (Hindu and Islam). The third Panth (Khalsa) is made prominent.

ਕਰੋਂ ਖਾਲਸਾ ਪੰਥ ਤੀਸਰ ਪ੍ਰਵੇਸਾ । ਜਗੈਂ ਸਿੰਘ ਜੋਧੈ ਧਰੈਂ ਨੀਲ ਭੇਸਾ ।

The Khalsa Panth is established. Sikh warriors flourish in the world, blue in their wearing.

Dear friend, the Chhants accepted by you call even the Hindus and Moslems as two Panths not Quam. What can I say more? Would you please tell me if the word ‘Quam’ just like the word ‘Hindu’ is from (in your dictionary) the Sanskrit language?

I would also like to enquire from you that what is the number required (of disciples) for a Dharma to become a Quam? And at what numerical strength Christians and Moslems were accepted as Quams?

Hindu: In your Sakhis (religious biographies) many stories prove Sikhs to be Hindus. Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji sacrificed himself for Brahmins. This proves that Sikhs are Hindus.

Sikh: It has been clearly explained, as far as the Sikhs are concerned, from Gurbani and acceptable Sikh historic texts. There is no need of repetition. We accept only that Sakhis as a (valid) reference which is not against Gurbani.

To help the defenseless and troubled is the cardinal principle of Sikh religion. The compassionate Guru sacrificed himself to remove the injustice and to help those who sought refuge, which does not prove that the Gurus were Hindus. The Guru showed to Aurangzeb that his desire was to make one religion from two, i.e., to convert Hindus to Islam, but this is the Will of the Almighty Waheguru that there will be the third religion Khalsa Panth distinct from the two. The Guru did not sacrifice for Brahmins but for the whole world, as it is shown in Bachittar Natak.

He did this (sacrifice) for the sake of the Saints. He gave his head and did not utter a sigh.

You cannot say that the word ‘Sadh’ or ‘Saint’ means Hindu. My dear Hindu brother the instruction of the Guru to Sikhs is to help the weak and defenseless. Accepting this instruction of the Guru the acts of charity and favor that the Sikhs have done for the country and the sacrifices they have offered to remove injustice, history is witness to that. There is no need for me to narrate that. We consider you (Hindus), Moslems and Christians as well our own part and treat everyone in a brotherly fashion and would forever like to do that. But from religious point of view we (Sikhs) are not Hindus because our beliefs, worship and religious symbols, according to the principles of Quam are different from those of yours. Therefore the Sikh Quam is distinct like Moslems, Hindus and Christians.

[Akaal_Das]

The writer teaches history at Miranda House, New Delhi. She comes from the Punjabi Brahmin family.

http://www.hinduonnet.com/2003/03/04/stories/2003030400951000.htm

Bhai Mani Singh writes in Gian Ratanavali:

Hajees asked Baba Nanak, "O Saint, are you a Hindu or Moslem?" Then Baba Nanak replied, "I am witness for both."

Gur Partap Sooraj Parkash:

First there were Hindus and Muslims, take note, there are three now. (GurPartapSurya)

On his way towards Deccan, Guru Gobind Singh reached Pushkar .The discussion that took place there is recorded this way in Surya Prakash.

Brahmins, Merchants and others came with Pandit Chaitin. Having made salutation they sat down in the assembly and asked, “What is their Caste? How we recognize them. Your companions wear unshorn hair, what we can say is their Caste? There are many new garbs, but none of them is Hindu or Moslem.” Having heard that Guru replied, “Khalsa is the third Panth in the world. It is distinct from Hindus and Moslems. They are servants of the Eternal, Immortal.” When Guru Gobind Singh met the Emperor Bahadur Shah, this discussion transpired.

Bahadur Shah said, “There are two religions, Hindus and Moslems, What appeals to you? On what you have faith, Hinduism or Islam?”

To that Guru Gobind Singh replied, "Hindu, Moslems whatever way they follow we wish them both well. The Moslems preach fasting; prayer call and five prayers are supreme for them. Hindus perform Sandhya, adoration and rites of stone Gods, and such others are acceptable to Hindus. We consider both the same way abandoning all others; we have established the Khalsa as the third (religion). Without distinction we abandon all else and seek the shelter of the Eternal, the Purusha." (Gur Pratap Surya)

Rehatnamas:

Khalsa should stay distinct from Hindus and Moslems. (Rehatnama Bhai Chaupa Singh-l0)

Khalsa should remove the domination (influence) of Hindus and Moslems. (Rehatnama Bhai Daya Singh-11)

Bhagat Ratnavli:

Not only the baptized Sikhs are separate from Hindus and others, but also stories of Sahajdhari Sikhs tell us that they abandoned other rites and customs and adopted Gurmat. For this see the explanation of the 11th Var of Bhai Gurdas. (Bhagat Ratanavali by Bhai Mani Singh)

Sikhs addressed their supplication, "O True King, the Pundits in Kashmir do not allow the Sikhs to read Bani (Word) of the Guru. They say that Sanskrit is the language of the Gods and the vernacular is the language of mortals. You have abandoned the daily rites and so we are not going to have daily relations with you." Then the Guru asked Sodhi Madho to go to Kashmir and preach Sikhism there.

Gur Bilas and Panth Parkash:

To the two religions was added the Third. Taking the support of Almighty, Guru Gobind Singh created the Khalsa Panth, above the Hindus and Moslems. "Forgetting all ways adopt the Khalsa Panth,” said the Tenth Guru, the Light Incarnate. (Gur Bilas)

Again distinct from the Hindus and Moslems, He said, "Establish I this Panth, powerful indeed." (Panth Parkash)

Conversation between Nadir Shah and Governor of Lahore

It (Khalsa Panth) is distinct from Hindus and Moslems. Distinct and marvelous is their sect. They perform marriage ceremony neither like Hindus nor like Moslems.

Their marriage is Anand ceremony. When a Singh (man) or Singhni (woman) dies, they prepare sacred food and distribute it. They do not perform the Hindu rites and they do not throw the bones (of the dead) in the Ganges. On the tenth day they complete the reading of the Granth and distribute the offerings to the poor. They do not wear the sacred thread, nor put the mark on their forehead. They never worship idols. They worship the One Almighty and do not make obeisance to anyone else. Vedas, Puranas and other (Semitic) books, they do not accept the authority of any. Whatever Guru Nanak said, they keep faith on that. From the same vessel they administer Amrit (baptismal water) to everyone. They all eat together and live like true brothers. They leave behind all caste, Varna, family names, Karma and Dharma of the ancestors. On the contrary, if any Sikh comes to our religion (Islam), on getting the opportunity he goes back and baptizing him they absorb him in their religion.

Tat Khalsa is the representation of the Guru “(they say) it is beyond the coming and going through the life cycles. Hindus are blind, Muslims are one eyed, but really sages are the Sikhs of the Guru” distinct from Hindus and Moslems.

All the customs are different, among them. They do not acknowledge the ghosts at all. They do not recognize graves and cemeteries. They do not go to the Ganges for pilgrimage. They do not consider impure puerperium (state after child birth).

They do not wear the Janeau and do not put the sacred mark. They do not abide by the rites of the Hindus like keeping a Bodi (tuft of hair), Dhoti and Rosary of Tulsi, performing Hom, or Shradh.

They consider their own religion to be better and if somebody calls them Hindu they get angry. They have abandoned all the customs of the Hindus. They live like real brothers, and respect each other. They are greatly united.

A Sikh always sacrifices himself for other Sikhs gladly in time of need.

Another Historic Account:

Bhai Dhesi and Bhai Jodha sought protection of Guru Arjan. They addressed their appeal thus, "O True King, the Pundits do not let us sit in Pangat. They complain, in spite of being Brahmins we have become disciples (Sikhs) of a Kshatriya. We have abandoned the language of the Gods in the Vedas and sing the songs of the Guru in Vernacular, having abandoned Janam Ashtmi, Shivratri, Ekadsi, we feed Sikhs. We have abandoned Gyatri, Tarpan, Sandhya, Pind, Patal, rites of birth and death and perform the Sikh prayer and distribute Karah Prasad after Ardas, as the rites of the dead. O Protector of the humble we have come to your shelter. You have saved us. The egoist Brahman has gone away from us. We have received gnosis and name of the Lord."

[Akaal_Das]

The writer teaches history at Miranda House, New Delhi. She comes from the Punjabi Brahmin family.

http://www.hinduonnet.com/2003/03/04/stories/2003030400951000.htm

Many Shashtras and many Simirtis have I seen and searched them all. Nanak, they equal not Lord God's invaluable Name.” (Ang 265)

“You worship gods and goddesses, but you do not know the Supreme Lord God. Says Kabeer, you have not remembered the Lord who has no ancestors; you are clinging to your corrupt ways.” (Ang 332)

“The Pandits, the religious scholars, the teachers and astrologers, and those who endlessly read the Puraanas, do not know what is within; God is hidden deep within them. || 4 ||” (Ang 419)

“The Hindus have forgotten the Primal Lord; they are going the wrong way. As Naarad instructed them, they are worshipping idols. They are blind and mute, the blindest of the blind. The ignorant fools pick up stones and worship them. But when those stones themselves sink, who will carry you across? ||2||” Ang 556

“Why worship gods and goddesses, O Siblings of Destiny? What can we ask of them? What can they give us? The stone gods are washed with water, O Siblings of Destiny, but they just sink in the water.” (Ang 637)

"The Hindu is sightless; the Muslim has only one eye. The spiritual teacher is wiser than both of them." (Ang 875)

"I do not make pilgrimages to Mecca, nor do I worship at Hindu sacred shrines. I serve the One Lord, and not any other." (Ang 1136)

"I do not perform Hindu worship services, nor do I offer the Muslim prayers. I do not perform Hindu worship services, nor do I offer the Muslim prayers." (Ang 1136)

"I am not a Hindu, nor am I a Muslim." (Ang 1136)

"I have abandoned both the Pandits, the Hindu religious scholars, and the Mullahs, the Muslim priests. ||1||Pause|| I weave and weave, and wear what I weave. Where egotism does not exist, there I sing God's Praises. ||2|| Whatever the Pandits and Mullahs have written, I reject; I do not accept any of it. ||3||" (Ang 1158)

"They who say the stone is a god; in vain is their service. He who falls at the feet of the stone; vain goes his labor. My Lord ever speaks. The Lord gives gifts to all the living beings. The Lord is within, but the blind one knows not. Deluded by doubt, he is caught in a noose. The stone speaks not, nor gives anything. In vain are the ceremonies of the idolater, and fruitless his service." (Ang 1160)

"The blind ignorant ones stray in doubt and so deluded, deluded they pluck flowers for worship. They worship the lifeless stones and adore tombs. Their service all goes in vain." (Ang 1264)

If the Lord Allah lives only in the mosque, then to whom does the rest of the world belong? According to the Hindus, the Lord's Name abides in the idol, but there is no truth in either of these claims. ||1|| (Ang 1349)

"I do not accept Ganesha as important. I do not meditate on Krishna, neither on Vishnu. I do not hear them and do not recognize them. My love is with the Lotus feet of God. He is my protector, the Supreme Lord. I am dust of his Lotus feet." (Guru Gobind Singh)

"Mahadev called himself eternal; Vishnu called himself Supreme, Brahma called himself lord; none of them realized the Transcendent Lord. All those sages created by Hari, They propagated their own Simritis, the way by which one can enshrine the Lotus feet of Hari in mind, they did not adopt that way of meditation. Brahma produced the four Vedas but those who love the Lotus-feet of Hari rest outside the attachment of the Vedas. Prophet Mohammad was created by the Lord. He was made sovereign of Arabia. He also created a new Dharma and the circumcised (Muslims) became supreme. All were forced to meditate on his name (Mohammad Rasul). Nobody remembered the Name of the True Lord. Then I (Hari) adopted you as my Son so that you may start the Khalsa Panth. Everywhere you spread the Dharma and instruct the public not to practice chicanery. What the Hari says I (Gobind Singh) utter that, and do not subject myself to anybody’s influence. We do not worship stones, neither adopt various garbs. We do not keep matted hair nor wear ear rings. We do not subject ourselves to anyone’s influence. We perform whatever God ordains. I have come for this in the world. The Lord sent (me) to uphold Dharma. All the Avtars (Prophets) that have been before proclaimed themselves only." (Bachittar Natak, Guru Gobind Singh Ji)

"Some say the Muslim rosary, others meditate by Hindu Mala. Some read Puranas, others read Quran. Both waste themselves in the love of arguments. Lord is distinct from both." (Bachittar Natak, Guru Gobind Singh Ji)

"Ever since I have grasped Your feet, I have not thought of anybody else.

I do not accept the doctrines enunciated by various faiths, believing in Ram, Rahim, Puranas and Qoran.

The Simritis, Shastras and Vedas mention different concepts but I do not subscribe to any of them.

O God, the Sword-bearer (of justice)! With Your Grace, all that has been uttered by me has been done under Your command.

Dohra!

I have shunned every door and have entered Your door

Please hold my arm and keep my honour, Gobind is ever Your slave." (Raam Avtar, Guru Gobind Singh)

Guru Gobind SIngh Ji on Khalsa

Day and night they meditate on the Light manifest. Accept the One, and they do not contemplate anyone else. In complete love they keep the form. They never keep faith in fasts, graves, Mausoleums, pilgrimages, ritual charity, false compassion, austerity, false constraints. Except the one, the Lord, they do not recognize anyone. When the Light illuminates the Mind, only then Khalsa is known, distinct and pure. (33 Swaiyas)

[Weedol]

Going by these highly selective quotes, the Emperor and the Guru did not understand that there is no such religion as 'Hinduism', and held only a superficial understanding of the beliefs and practices of the Indian people as revealed here. Also, 'khalsa' is not synonymous with 'sikh'. The majority of Sikhs are not 'khalsa' and most likely the original meaning of 'khalsa' is lost. Example: sadhus attend their own funeral service before initiation into the akhada. This is supposed to show they are dead to the world and renounce their former lives.

To cut a very long story short, without this level of intention, there is no possible way anyone can renounce heredity. You may incline to Sikhism, Buddhism, Jainism, Christianity or Islam. But at the end of the day, by dint of genetics you remain jatt, khatri, chamar, or whatever. The way of sadhus is not for ordinary people like 'the Sikhs' or other Hindus.

[Matheen]

Going by these highly selective quotes, the Emperor and the Guru did not understand that there is no such religion as 'Hinduism', and held only a superficial understanding of the beliefs and practices of the Indian people as revealed here. Also, 'khalsa' is not synonymous with 'sikh'.

Moorakh.

[Weedol]

Moorakh.

"Going by these highly selective quotes" I said. The quotes selected and the context in which they were used said much more about the selector than their alleged author.

Anyway, not believing in the infallibility of your guru doesn't make me a 'moorakh' otherwise all non-Sikhs are moorakhs. True moorakhs are ordinary stay-at-home householders who think they are 'khalsa' and use these quotes to justify why they fail to honour their ancestors by performing shraadh and other obligations detailed in their respective ancestral sutras.

Edited January 23, 2010 by Weedol

[Matheen]

In answer to the original question, Guru Sahib states, on Ang 1136," naa ham hi(n)dhoo n musalamaan ||I am not a Hindu, nor am I a Muslim."

Settles it.

[Weedol]

It doesn't 'settle it' in my view because an important part of the creed of the Sufi masters - a group to which Guru Nanak is very likely to have belonged - is that they have no native home on earth: 'Woe be to him who considers his home [insert city here] or any other city of this world' - Sohrawardi. If Guru Nanak made that utterance it belongs to the category of spiritual secrets and denotes his separation from worldly attachments, and does not constitute an injunction for his self-appointed followers.

Edited January 23, 2010 by Weedol

[chatanga1]

part of the creed of the Sufi masters - a group to which Guru Nanak is very likely to have belonged

what makes you make such a a bold statement? This issue is settled in Japji Sahib Ji.

[shaheediyan]

Hello Singho.

[Weedol]

what makes you make such a a bold statement? This issue is settled in Japji Sahib Ji.

When you take away the separatist dogma, it seems obvious that Sikhism is, if not a conglomeration of Muslim and Hindu beliefs, deeply influenced by both strands. Check the Devi Pargat thread for the Hindu influence. Also, what is the 'amrit' referred to in Adi Granth? Don't tell me it's the sugar-water that householders take on 'initiation'. For there to be an initiation there has to be a tradition, and the khalsa mode of initiation as it departs from charan pahul is clearly derived from Muslim-Sufi initiation rituals resembling an initiation into a Sufi sect. Most of the people who think they've taken initiation into 'khalsa' have not, simply because the lineage and tradition isn't there. A 19th/20th century reform movement doesn't have the lineage, and yet that's what the majority of Sikhs today refer to as 'khalsa'.

Edited January 23, 2010 by Weedol

[Weedol]

A view of a Sikh:

(http://www.hindunet.org/srh_home/1997_2/0050.html)

THIRD KHALSA PANTH.

This fact is well known to all the people but which are the other two?

Thinking logically, Khalsas do the philanthropic work of God and, thus he must have a knowledge of God. This knowledge he acquires from Ad-Granth, which is for the Sikhs.

So, the second Panth is Sikh.

Further, a person cannot be a Sikh of a Satguru unless he is a disciple of a Pandit guru who imparts the worldly knowledge of his physical parents and how to lead your life in the political circles. The duty of a Pandit is to keep the person reminded of his physical father and that makes a person a Hindu. The word Hindu originates from HONDH, the identity and the wisdom of the great Pandit Ravan is still visible in Southern India, where the name of a boy includes the name of his father and that of the village i.e. JAATI and BAASI.

No Saint Who belong to the Fourth Panth ever concealed his tribal identity as that is given by God by birth. No body is born into a family of his own free-will but that of God.

So, the first Panth is Hindu, the second is Sikh, the third is Khalsa and the fourth is of Nirmallae Sants or Bhagats.

As a students of a secondary school would not be attending the classes of the primary school, so a person belonging to a higher Panth would not be attending the religious places of the lower Panth. In this sense a Sikh would not be attending a Mandir of a Pandit, a Khalsa attending the Gurdwara or a Nirmallae Sant taking on the sword or weapons of the third Panth.

As the Bhagatan Sikhs and Nirmallae Sants are compatible, so the Khalsas with weapons are odd persons in the Gurdwaras or Har Mandir Sahib, the root of all the Sikh Gurdwaras. That is why Sachae Paatshah Gobind Singh Ji, the establisher of the Khalsa Panth never visited Har Mandir Sahib whilst the Sachae Paatshah Har Gobind Ji was the founder of UPKAARI FAUJ Who prepared the Sikhs for the Khalsa Panths under His own guidance. Khalsas after Sachae Paatshah Gobind Singh Ji is an independent PAR UPKAARI SOLDIER, a Sardar who is subject to no secular authority.

So, those people who take Amrit of Khalsa are not aware that the Amrit is to be taken in the Places of the third Panth, the True TAKHTS and not in the places of the second community, the Gurdwaras. What could you expect of such Khalsas who soon after the baptism run towards their family homes instead of their Sachae Takhts?

What do you Sikhs think of this?

[Matheen]

The article doesn't make any sense and has no backing from Gurbani or legitimate historic sources. I also doubt that it was written by a Sikh.

Weedol, out of interest and to help understand your point of view, what has been your main source of knowledge on Sikhi? Did you go to school in Slough by any chance and learn Religious Studies under Rishi Handa?

Edited January 23, 2010 by Matheen

[Kaljug]

Hello Singho.

LOL

Just what the forum needed, a confused chela of Bandar Ali.

To those who don't know, Weedol is the idiot once known as Singho on this forum. He is a confused ex-public school boy who adopted Bahadur Ali/Ishraqi as his surrogate father figure. Both were once some kind of Sikhs who have since "seen the light" and become Shia Muslims. When they were not brown nosing their "Persian" friends, they were here trying to propagate the idea that Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji was a secret member of their particular cult.

K.

K.

[Weedol]

The article doesn't make any sense and has no backing from Gurbani or legitimate historic sources. I also doubt that it was written by a Sikh.

I don't know, that guy has many videos on Youtube and says he is a Nirmala.

Weedol, out of interest and to help understand your point of view, what has been your main source of knowledge on Sikhi? Did you go to school in Slough by any chance and learn Religious Studies under Rishi Handa?

No, and I don't know anyone by that name. My point of view is that, on the basis of historical example, the Sikh Gurus married within their own caste group, i.e. they made a point of marrying only those people who were 'halal' for them within the parameters of respectable Indian cultural norms. Furthermore, the 10th Guru said he was a 'shatri'. Both of these historical facts seem to indicate that caste was not rejected in the way that many people might think. Also, if you look at Sikh people today, there are fringe groups such as the modern Deras comprising Dalits, the Chamars and other Mazhbi groups. There is an understanding that these people are not true Sikhs, and I suggest this is because they would not have been eligible to join the Khalsa at the time when the Khalsa was still extant (in original form). The 10th Guru also has a detailed history of his Sodhi family that's included in the Sikh sacred texts. So what this indicates to me is that the 10th Guru's 'Khalsa' may have been a fraternity to which a minority of people could aspire to join, on more or less the same conditions as those that applied to the traditional akharas of sadhus, on which example the early Sikhs modelled this fraternity.

The sadhus likewise reject the temple and household brahmins, because they are 'dead' to their household lives in the service of their Guru. They are/were in disciplined groups, they don't have any possessions, they have no fear of death and they eat and sleep little. This is a model of obvious benefit to any militant order so it makes some sense that the Khalsa would have been modelled after this pattern. Whatever the case may be, it seems clear that the Khalsa was not supposed to be a householder, and that not every Sikh was supposed to hope to become a Khalsa. The householder Sikhs would have continued their ancestral rites (including sacrifices into the havan while reciting Vedic formulae in the case of khatris, Bishts, etc.), and would not have been expected to hold to the creed of the renunciate Khalsa as summarised in some of the quotes from Akaal Das here on this forum. The popularisation of Khalsa was encouraged for political reasons first by the British then by separatists, and led to its apparent demise (notwithstanding recent attempts to reconstruct nihang heritage etc.). The whole model of initiation depends 100% on authenticity of lineage - when it's lost it's lost forever.

Edited January 23, 2010 by Weedol

[Weedol]

LOL

Just what the forum needed, a confused chela of Bandar Ali.

To those who don't know, Weedol is the idiot once known as Singho on this forum. He is a confused ex-public school boy who adopted Bahadur Ali/Ishraqi as his surrogate father figure. Both were once some kind of Sikhs who have since "seen the light" and become Shia Muslims. When they were not brown nosing their "Persian" friends, they were here trying to propagate the idea that Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji was a secret member of their particular cult.

K.

K.

LOL you have confused me with someone else buddy.

[Matheen]

Discrimination based on caste was totally rejected. Marrying within the same caste doesn't prove anything either way. Look at Gurbani and historic Rehatnamas. Plenty of Dalits/ Chamaars etc are Amritdhari Sikhs and there's no way to tell the difference between them and the rest.

I'd suggest you forget all that you think you know of Sikhi and study/ listen to katha of Gurbani first, if you're seriously interested in learning the truth about Sikhi.

There is no evidence for any of the views you hold, which seem to be based entirely on stuff you've read on the Internet or Bahadur. Were you here as 'singho' in the past?

[Guest]

guys, i just cheked ip address with weedol there is no match between weedol and singho. So please continue the discussion without any accusations.

[Weedol]

Discrimination based on caste was totally rejected. Marrying within the same caste doesn't prove anything either way. Look at Gurbani and historic Rehatnamas. Plenty of Dalits/ Chamaars etc are Amritdhari Sikhs and there's no way to tell the difference between them and the rest.

Yes, that's the case now, but it's not 'puratan' is what I'm saying.

There is no evidence for any of the views you hold, which seem to be based entirely on stuff you've read on the Internet or Bahadur. Were you here as 'singho' in the past?

No, as mentioned before in answer to Kaljug.

I remain unconvinced about the interpretation of the Sikh tradition by the modern form of the Sikh religion - it can't be brushed aside as internet rumours. On this site I noted that Anand Karaj was originally performed around a havan. Also an interesting claim that because several Sikh Gurus used the pen-name 'Nanak', it is equally possible that later Sikh masters may have used 'Gobind Singh' as a pen-name. I don't think you guys have it all figured out and I remain open to new research on the practices of the early Sikhs when it was considered a 'dharma'.

[Kaljug]

guys, i just cheked ip address with weedol there is no match between weedol and singho. So please continue the discussion without any accusations.

That's pretty easy to change, Singh. It also assumes he's still in the same location.

K.

[Matheen]

Yes, that's the case now, but it's not 'puratan' is what I'm saying.

Based on what evidence?

On this site I noted that Anand Karaj was originally performed around a havan.

There are Nihang sources (Akali Baba Trilok Singh, Taruna Dal) who state it was done around 'Ik Oankaar', until the Lavaan were revealed.

Also an interesting claim that because several Sikh Gurus used the pen-name 'Nanak', it is equally possible that later Sikh masters may have used 'Gobind Singh' as a pen-name.

Examples please. The Guru's were all the jyot of Guru Nanak Sahib Ji, which is why they used 'Nanak'. I know, difficult to comprehend if you believe in Islam, but that's the way it is.

This topic is titled "are Sikhs Hindus?" Gurbani, specifically Dasam Ban,i makes it clear that Sikhs of Guru Sahib are not Hindus.

Edited January 23, 2010 by Matheen

[shaheediyan]

Singho was always in denial of his multiple personalities around the place and was ever looking out for new Laptops lol.

Anyways, it matters not, at least you aren't spewing hate now, that's a good thing.

"Also, if you look at Sikh people today, there are fringe groups such as the modern Deras comprising Dalits, the Chamars and other Mazhbi groups. There is an understanding that these people are not true Sikhs, and I suggest this is because they would not have been eligible to join the Khalsa at the time when the Khalsa was still extant (in original form)."

This is incorrect.

1 - Look at the bradari make up of the 'Aad Khalsa' i.e. the Panj Pyare.

2 - Look at any number of independant historical sources which cite the make up of the 'Bandai Khalsa', its a well known fact, most were from sudra bradaris.

3 - Regarding your Khalsa Vs Grist theory - were Misldaars like both the great Jassa Singhs not both Khalsa and Grihsht?

4 - Again, regarding Khalsa, look at various puratan rehitnamai, which give instructions on marriage rites of 'Singhs/Khalsa'.