Any Ideas Of What This Means Exactly?

[dalsingh101]

I'm trying to translate something by Bhai Vir Singh (I'll post soon hopefully) and wondered what some of the Panjabi knowing sangat think of this? I can't quite place the meaning in the attachment I've posted, especially the use of the word avaahan? The dictionary defines it as an 'invocation'?

Here is what I've got so far, I know I may be well off the mark, can you help? The most troublesome bit is the part that goes "kaviaan de likhay moojb kissda avaahan kita..."

What is a thinking person supposed to think? That Guru Gobind Singh ji took some of the writings of poets and xxxxxx xxxxxxxxx? Because the writers of Gurbilas and Gur Sartaap Suraj etc. present a hotchpotch of the schools of thought [in their writings].

??????

Edited July 31, 2010 by dalsingh101

[chatanga1]

i think aavahan means praise.and moojab means alternative way.

so far it means that Guru Gobind Singh took the writings of the poets and wrote them alternatively (or in his own words).

sorry i was wrong. have copied this from another site:

Aavahan is a call to make our home, our Mother Earth a more beautiful, peaceful and a prosperous place. It is an invitation...

Maybe this is what is being said:

"What is a thinking person supposed to think? That Guru Gobind Singh ji took some of the writings of poets with an invitation to re-write them? Because the writers of Gurbilas and Gur Sartaap Suraj etc. present a hotchpotch of the schools of thought [in their writings]."

Edited July 31, 2010 by chatanga1

[Mekhane'ch Jannat]

I think avahaan can also mean invitation or entreaty

[dalsingh101]

Thanks guys.

I had ਬਮੂਜਬ and ਮੂਜਬ defined as "according to, in accordance with, under".

Chatanga veer, I just saw your definition, can you tell us more of where you got it from?

Let's try and put this all together:

What is a thinking person supposed to think? That Guru Gobind Singh ji took some of the writings according to poets and praised them? Because the writers of Gurbilas and Gur Sartaap Suraj etc. present a hotchpotch of the schools of thought [in their writings]. X - Makes no sense.

However if moojb can mean alternative way and we stick to invocation for avaahan, then we could have:

What is a thinking person supposed to think? That Guru Gobind Singh ji took some of the writings of poets and created alternatives of their invocations? Because the writers of Gurbilas and Gur Sartaap Suraj etc. present a hotchpotch of the schools of thought [in their writings]. - Makes better sense, but I still find the abrupt references to Gurbilias and Gur Suraj Granths a bit out of place.....

hmmmmmmm......

[dalsingh101]

Maybe we need to sleep on it? lol

What are the "kavian de likhay moojb"

that had "avaahan" done to them?

lol

What was written by the kavi's that had something done to them....moojb?

moojb can also mean under?

hmmmmm...

Edited July 31, 2010 by dalsingh101

[chatanga1]

ਸ਼ੁਮਾ ਰਾ ਚੁ ਫ਼ਰਜ਼ ਅਸਤ ਕਾਰੇ ਕੁਨੀ ॥ ਬਮੂਜਬ ਨਵਿਸ਼ਤਹ ਸ਼ੁਮਾਰੇ ਕੁਨੀ ॥੫੩॥

शुमा रा चु फ़रज़ असत कारे कुनी ॥ बमूजब नविशतह शुमारे कुनी ॥५३॥

It is your duty and a binding on you to do as bidden in writing.53

from page 2268 of Sahib Sri Dasam Granth of sridasam.org

it is part of Zafarnama, so we can deduce it is a Farsi word in origin.

bamoojab is which word here? writing ?

if so could moojab on its own mean un-written? or re-written?

Edited July 31, 2010 by chatanga1

[dalsingh101]

Good find Chatanga!

Apparently ਬਮੂਜਬ is the same as ਮੂਜਬ though. It's from Zafarnama so you are very probably right about the words etymology (I'm not showing off - I just never get to use that word enough!)

Where are those Farsi experts who hang around here when you actually need them? lol

Plus, where do the brothers from back home disappear to when they can possibly be of use?

Edited July 31, 2010 by dalsingh101

[chatanga1]

ਬਮੂਜਬ

ਾ. ... ਕ੍ਰਿ. ਵਿ- ਅਨੁਸਾਰ. ਮੁਆਫਿਕ. ਮੁਤਾਬਿਕ. ਦੇਖੋ, ਮੂਜਬ. the highlighted words mean "according to.."

this is from gur shabd ratnakar mahankosh.

it still doesnt get any clearer for me tho!!!

[dalsingh101]

That Weedol told me he can read/understand Farsi. Lets try him?

[dalsingh101]

Got these definitions:

ਮੂਜਬ - ਅ. ... ਸੰਗਾ- ਵਾਜਬ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲਾ। ੨. ਕਾਰਣ. ਸਬਬ. ਹੇਤੁ। ੩. ਪੰਜਾਬੀ ਵਿੱਚ ਅਨੁਸਾਰ (ਬ ਮੂਜਬ) ਦਾ ਅਰਥ ਭੀ ਦਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ, ਜੈਸੇ ਉਸ ਦੇ ਕਹੇ ਮੂਜਬ ਮੈ ਇੱਥੇ ਆਇਆ ਹਾਂ.

From here:

http://www.searchgurbani.com/main.php?book=mahan_kosh&action=index&letter=%E0%A8%AE&page=24

Weedol came out with:

Struggle! Compel! Try! Coerce!

Edited August 1, 2010 by dalsingh101

[dalsingh101]

ਆਵਾਹਨ

ਸੰ. ਸੰਗਾ- ਬੁਲਾਉਣ ਦੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਯਾ. ਸੱਦਣਾ। ੨. ਮੰਤ੍ਰ ਦਾਰਾ ਕਿਸੇ ਦੇਵਤੇ ਨੂੰ ਸੱਦਣ ਦੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਯਾ. ''ਆਵਾਹਨ ਸਗਰੇ ਸੁਰ ਕਰੇ.'' (ਗੁਪ੍ਰਸੂ)

Lets see if this helps.

Edited August 1, 2010 by dalsingh101

[dalsingh101]

I think I may have it (well some of it)?

likay moojb = written opinions?

BVS was obviously using the Panjabi form of the word (as opposed to Farsi) meaning according to or opinion.

If the above is correct then we now have to fathom what is meant by GGS ji doing an avahaan of these "written opinions". Then link it to the subsequent statement about Gurbilas etc.

Avahaan can also be defined as summoning btw.

Edited August 1, 2010 by dalsingh101

[dalsingh101]

This one looks very promising!! It also links very well to the previous sentences.. Let me know what you think guys.

What is a thinking person supposed to think? Which one of these did GGS ji invoke, as per the poet's writing? Because the writers of Gurbilas and Gur Prataap Suraj etc. present a hotchpotch of the schools of thought [in their works].

Edited August 1, 2010 by dalsingh101

[dalsingh101]

Slight rejiggle:

What is a thinking person supposed to think? Which one of these is Guru Gobind Singh ji supposed to have invoked, according to that written by the poets. Because the authors of Gurbilas and Gur Prataap Suraj etc. present a hotchpotch of the schools of thought [in their works].

[chatanga1]

Slight rejiggle:

yeah the rejiggle seems to have nailed it. do the lines before and after these give any further clue to what BVS was hinting at?

[Kaljug]

Can't see what you are translating, but bamoojab (Punjabi from Farsi) just means "according to, in accordance with, under or vide".

Aavahan is, as already stated above, a calling or invocation, e.g., Hanuman Chalisa is sometimes called Hanuman Aavahan because it is an invocation of his powers.

K.

Edited August 1, 2010 by Kaljug

[dalsingh101]

yeah the rejiggle seems to have nailed it. do the lines before and after these give any further clue to what BVS was hinting at?

The bit I posted comes at the end of a paragraph but it makes proper sense with what precedes it now. Thanks for the support brother - I really appreciate it.

I just have about one more page to translate (ਅਨੁਵਾਦ) for this section now. Then I'll analyse it. I found something out which is a bit of a bombshell.....to me anyway. It explains a lot.....lol

Edited August 1, 2010 by dalsingh101

[Weedol]

Can't see what you are translating, but bamoojab (Punjabi from Farsi) just means "according to, in accordance with, under or vide".

It would make a difference, whether it was bamoojab or an imperative formed from moojaber kardan.

Edited August 1, 2010 by Weedol

[Weedol]

[double]

Edited August 1, 2010 by Weedol

[dalsingh101]

It would make a difference, whether it was bamoojab or an imperative formed from moojaber kardan.

I think there is a difference between the Panjabi definition and the Farsi one? Weedol could maybe look at the context of the usage in Zafarnama to see if it fits his Farsi definition? Just out of interest?

Kaljug, go further up the posts and find the attachment with the original Panjabi text, if you want to see it in context. You have to be logged in to do that.

I'm pretty happy with the last 'rejiggled' translation given. I'm leaving it up for scrutiny. Unless someone tells me otherwise I'll probably run with it.

The next few paragraphs of this section get a bit tricky, mainly because Bhai Vir Singh seems to have written extremely long sentences. lol

[Weedol]

I Google bamoojab and found this excerpt and translation from Zafarnameh on rajkaregakhalsa.net:

Shumaa raa chu farz ast kaare kunee|| Bamoojab navishatah shumaare kunee

It is your duty and a binding on you to do as bidden in writing.

It shows it does not mean 'according to'. It is one half of a verb, the second half of it is kardan. It means you are compelled.

'Compel/order in writing (or according to writing), do it!'

Edited August 1, 2010 by Weedol

[dalsingh101]

I Google bamoojab and found this excerpt and translation from Zafarnameh on rajkaregakhalsa.net:

Shumaa raa chu farz ast kaare kunee|| Bamoojab navishatah shumaare kunee

It is your duty and a binding on you to do as bidden in writing.

It shows it does not mean 'according to'. It is one half of a verb, the second half of it is kardan. It means you are compelled.

Does the whole translation make complete sense to you? Do you know all the words?

As I said earlier, the word seems to have a different meaning in Panjabi to Farsi. This from Mahan Kosh:

ਮੂਜਬ - ਅ. ... ਸੰਗਾ- ਵਾਜਬ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲਾ। ੨. ਕਾਰਣ. ਸਬਬ. ਹੇਤੁ। ੩. ਪੰਜਾਬੀ ਵਿੱਚ ਅਨੁਸਾਰ (ਬ ਮੂਜਬ) ਦਾ ਅਰਥ ਭੀ ਦਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ, ਜੈਸੇ ਉਸ ਦੇ ਕਹੇ ਮੂਜਬ ਮੈ ਇੱਥੇ ਆਇਆ ਹਾਂ.

This broadly translates as:

"Opinion" or "according to" is the meaning given in Panjabi, as in "I came here because of his spoken opinion/accordances".

[Guest Weed]

EDIT: fixed

Does the whole translation make complete sense to you? Do you know all the words?

Sure.

Shumaa raa chu farz ast kaare kunee

Shoma = you (formal)

ra = direct object (hard to explain)

cho = rumour / as

farz = (sense of) honour/obligation

kaare konee = work

I.e. you are said to be have honour OR you as obligation must do

Bamoojab = under

navishatah = writings

shumaare = by reckoning of

kunee = to do (kardan)

As I said earlier, the word seems to have a different meaning in Panjabi to Farsi.

I really don't know about that.

This from Mahan Kosh:

ਮੂਜਬ - ਅ. ... ਸੰਗਾ- ਵਾਜਬ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲਾ। ੨. ਕਾਰਣ. ਸਬਬ. ਹੇਤੁ। ੩. ਪੰਜਾਬੀ ਵਿੱਚ ਅਨੁਸਾਰ (ਬ ਮੂਜਬ) ਦਾ ਅਰਥ ਭੀ ਦਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ, ਜੈਸੇ ਉਸ ਦੇ ਕਹੇ ਮੂਜਬ ਮੈ ਇੱਥੇ ਆਇਆ ਹਾਂ.

This broadly translates as:

"Opinion" or "according to" is the meaning given in Panjabi, as in "I came here because of his spoken opinion/accordances".

It's possible to make mistakes with this on account of 1) the gurmukhi script is not ideal; 2) there may be a drift in language from the Persian meaning to something else in Punjabi, or even 2 similar words in Punjabi and Persian with the same root.

Edited August 1, 2010 by Weed

[dalsingh101]

Don't discount the possibility that it could be two separate words with differing etymology that are just spelt/pronounced the same.

Edited August 1, 2010 by dalsingh101

[chatanga1]

Don't discount the possibility that it could be two separate words with differing etymology that are just spelt/pronounced the same.

or it could be a word used from another language in an entirely different context.

eg how the word Juggernaut came from JagganNath.