Why Do So Many Upneh Drink?

[dalsingh101]

do you think that the drinking at this time may have been limited to those who were Misldaars or high ranking officers rather than your average panjabi tara, dara and hari?

I think the rank and file soldiers drank too (and took bhang etc.). I don't think it was limited to the higher ranks although they probably indulged in these things more than the foot soldiers purely down to their social milieu (i.e. a lot of entertaining of other high rank people) and plain opportunity (i.e. more money for that kind of stuff).

It was probably more of a luxury for the rank and file and from one white man's account I recall, they indulged 'after fatigues', so it may have also had a sort of pseudo medicinal purpose, in helping them relax and unwind (sleep even?) after some serious graft in the day.

I think we really have to grasp that being an Amritdhari didn't have 'symbolic' warrior connotations like it does today. Those guys were actual real sipahis, killing, being killed and what not. Training for war, living in a roving camp life environment on campaigns etc. This would have been a tough, male dominated, hyper macho environment. You are talking about groups of men who would be mixed in their psychological make ups. The prolonged experiences of war would have toughened them up and I don't think they would really make a big fuss over a drink in the evening then. Smoking was obviously a different matter.

It's possible that being religious meant something very different to these Tominder, Deeps and Harjit foot soldiers than what it does to us everyday civilian Sikhs today. That being said, I'm sure a fair amount never indulged back then too.

Edited February 16, 2011 by dalsingh101

[dalsingh101]

Bear in mind this was written a good few decades (1812) before the 'annexation'. This is preBritish influence apnay being referred to:

The Sikhs are forbidden the use of tobacco, but allowed to indulge in spirituous

liquors, which they almost all drink to excess ; and it is rare to see a Singh soldier,

after sunset, quite sober.

Malcolm - Sketch of Sikhs

Edited February 17, 2011 by dalsingh101

[chatanga1]

I think we really have to grasp that being an Amritdhari didn't have 'symbolic' warrior connotations like it does today. Those guys were actual real sipahis, killing, being killed and what not. Training for war, living in a roving camp life environment on campaigns etc. This would have been a tough, male dominated, hyper macho environment. You are talking about groups of men who would be mixed in their psychological make ups. The prolonged experiences of war would have toughened them up and I don't think they would really make a big fuss over a drink in the evening then. Smoking was obviously a different matter.

Sikhs lived like this in the time of Guru Gobind Singh Ji, but there aren't any accounts of them drinking then or even during the times of dal khalsa also. the time drinking seems to be happening is at the times of Mah. Ranjit Singh, where we all know there was a fall in the standards of the Sikhs.

[dalsingh101]

the time drinking seems to be happening is at the times of Mah. Ranjit Singh, where we all know there was a fall in the standards of the Sikhs.

I'd say before that, somewhere in the latter half of the 1700s if I was pushed to make a guess.

Also note the 'Bhangi sardars', who were misldaars - which was pretty much the top leadership position one could achieve in their time. No contemporary or near literature to their time makes any big judgmental note towards the taking of the substance that conspicuously gave them their name.

Like I said, I'm not condoning this stuff and I know full well those inclined along these ways will use this kind of information to justify their own 'recreational' habits.

I don't believe drinking was sanctioned or encouraged under Dasmesh pita who pushed for the highest level of personal discipline in his Singhs, so we agree there. But if you ask me whether every last Sikh was completely teetotal in those times, I'd guess no. Least not in his personal time.

Anyway, lets leave this, I know it usually leads to all manner of accusations getting leveled at people sooner or later. Suffice to say, I'm increasingly believing that Sikhs weren't historically as puritan in certain areas as made out today.

Edited February 17, 2011 by dalsingh101

[chatanga1]

Also note the 'Bhangi sardars', who were misldaars - which was pretty much the top leadership position one could achieve in their time. No contemporary or near literature to their time makes any big judgmental note towards the taking of the substance that conspicuously gave them their name.

Taking Bhang was never an issue in the Panth. Its not the same as alcohol.

Anyway, lets leave this...

No way, I wanna fight over it.

[chatanga1]

I'd say before that, somewhere in the latter half of the 1700s if I was pushed to make a guess.

Baba Deep Singh Ji's shaheedi was in 1757, so I would assume that no Sikh was using alcohol then. I would even go so far as to say that even when Baghel Singh took Delhi, in 1783, i dont think any Sikh would have used alcohol then either.

[Xylitol]

didn't the Guru predict that the Khalsa would establish raj, and then lose it due to falling from Sikhi?? (from Raj Nama or Karni Nama I think) Ranjit Singh's raj certainly fits the bill, as Banda Singh Bahadur's raj was lost due to Banda Singh Bahadur ji himself making a mistake and not necessarily the majority of sikhs.

that would strongly indicate that widespread liquor consumption began during Ranjit singh's raj.

[dalsingh101]

Taking Bhang was never an issue in the Panth. Its not the same as alcohol.

Oh yeah!?!?!

[On phone:] Hello mate. Yeah, long time! Can I get an eighth of Thai weed please?

No way, I wanna fight over it.

Bring it on.

Edited February 17, 2011 by dalsingh101

[dalsingh101]

Baba Deep Singh Ji's shaheedi was in 1757, so I would assume that no Sikh was using alcohol then.

That's where we differ. I wouldn't assume like that. To project the nature of a giant in Sikhi like Baba Deep Singh onto all other Singhs of his time is problematic.

Lets be real, our own traditions tells us that a Singh fled from fighting an elephant despite dasmesh pita instructing him to do so. A Singh went to visit a prostitute and had to be physically prevented from achieving his objective by the Guru himself. Guru ji was deserted at some stage (by the 40 muktay), who later redeemed themselves.

So the notion that all Singhs were always models of Sikhi perfection in their behaviour simply due to the presence of Guru ji or Singhs like Baba Deep Singh doesn't seem consistent.

Of course, I wouldn't go as far as to say I definitely know what happened then. But the existence and nature of the rehats themselves indicate a system that involved punishments for transgressions. I'm sure they reflect concerns and ground level realities of the time? By this I mean that they were actually used to deal with lapses of discipline by Singhs.

You asked for it. You got it! lol

Edited February 17, 2011 by dalsingh101

[chatanga1]

the Singh, Bachittar Singh axtually fought the elephant, but anyway, Guru Granth Sahib tells us alcohol is never to be drunk, and in one of the rehitname, it say : Guru ka Sikh shraab kade na peeve, a sikh of the guru must never drink alcohol. The rehat name date mainly form after the 10th Guru, so I would assume at that time there was a strong rejection of alcohol at that time.

I think upto around the time just before the misls, the Sikhs were unaffected by the splendour of raaj. The times of excess came as the Sikh misls, not all of them mind you, began to mimic the previous rulers ie the moghals ( who had a similair injunction on alcohol) and the hindu rulers I used these two sikhs as examples as the khalsa panth was still in its ascendancy, where storys of alcohol use are not known. The use of alcohol I would say that came withthe descendancy of the panth.

now take that punch! Take it!

[dalsingh101]

the Singh, Bachittar Singh axtually fought the elephant, but anyway

That's not how I heard the sakhi. Prior to Bachittar Singh dealing with the elephant another bigger Singh was asked to deal with it but apparently lost his nerve and scarpered. Then Bachittar Singh stepped up on the Guru's order.

Guru Granth Sahib tells us alcohol is never to be drunk, and in one of the rehitname, it say : Guru ka Sikh shraab kade na peeve, a sikh of the guru must never drink alcohol. The rehat name date mainly form after the 10th Guru, so I would assume at that time there was a strong rejection of alcohol at that time.

Well, reading the surviving rehats it doesn't seem like they are uniform in their instructions. They have obviously evolved. I posted a reconstruction of what purports to be the oldest surviving one last night. This one brings up lots of questions which I'm sure we'll be discussing sooner or later.

I'm beginning to suspect that where we materially differ in our views is in regard to the perceived nature of the personal struggle Sikhs would have gone through in keeping discipline. I have no doubt that many Sikhs where inspired enough to act with with the highest level of discipline and faith. But where I think we differ is that you don't seem to think some Sikhs may have possibly struggled with their discipline from time to time and lapsed, I think this is highly likely and believe that one of the significant purposes of a rehat was to lay out instructions on how to deal with such matters.

I think upto around the time just before the misls, the Sikhs were unaffected by the splendour of raaj.

I would tend to agree with you there but you you seem to be linking drinking solely to excesses of people in power, I don't think this is true and I'm sure cheap equivalents of 'desi' was available to common man too.

The times of excess came as the Sikh misls, not all of them mind you, began to mimic the previous rulers ie the moghals ( who had a similair injunction on alcohol) and the hindu rulers.

That's not acknowledging the above scenario where people who weren't big shots may have drunk or taken drugs. Like nihangs for example, they never had ANY pretensions to royalty and where more like 'monk foot soldiers' but even they were known to take stuff.

I used these two sikhs as examples as the khalsa panth was still in its ascendancy, where storys of alcohol use are not known. The use of alcohol I would say that came with the descendancy of the panth.

I hear you but our lot are conservative mofos and wouldn't speak of this stuff in their literature. It's like we only know of drinking in the latter part of the 1700s from contemporary white man accounts. Our own accounts from that period remain generally silent about it.

now take that punch! Take it!

Haarrrhh!! Your punches are as effective as this "man's" would be! (Imaginably):

Seriously though, I see nothing to make me change my mind about the second half of the 1700s as a very likely contender for the emergence of drinking and bhanging.

I may have a dig round to find some old quotes to shed more light on the matter.

As previously stated, none of what I am saying is to betaken as an excuse to excess on Bacardi and coke or "biskey", like our guys frequently do.

Edited February 18, 2011 by dalsingh101

[Mithar]

the Singh, Bachittar Singh axtually fought the elephant, but anyway, Guru Granth Sahib tells us alcohol is never to be drunk, and in one of the rehitname, it say : Guru ka Sikh shraab kade na peeve, a sikh of the guru must never drink alcohol. The rehat name date mainly form after the 10th Guru, so I would assume at that time there was a strong rejection of alcohol at that time.

I think upto around the time just before the misls, the Sikhs were unaffected by the splendour of raaj. The times of excess came as the Sikh misls, not all of them mind you, began to mimic the previous rulers ie the moghals ( who had a similair injunction on alcohol) and the hindu rulers I used these two sikhs as examples as the khalsa panth was still in its ascendancy, where storys of alcohol use are not known. The use of alcohol I would say that came withthe descendancy of the panth.

now take that punch! Take it!

True. The Sikh generation that lived during the time of Guru Gobind Singh jee was the purest of Sikhs. Over time, with every passing generation cultural traits began creeping in. The early misl period Sikhs were also pious Sikhs, real Sant Sipahis, they lived in Gareebi and only for Sikhi. During this period it was also a meritocracy meaning: when one Sardar of a misl died, the next most able Singh would take his place as leader of the misl. But the later Misl period and Ranjit Singh era saw Sikhs becoming less and less pious and more worldly. Sardars began collecting wealth and a son would succeed father as the new head of a misl as if a misl were now a family Jageer, Singhs began drinking alcohol and even began to take a liking of watching Mujraa girls dance. By the end of the anglo Sikh wars, Sikhs (although still very brave) had largely become worldly and did not want to leave home and wage a guerrilla war against the British as compared to their great grand fathers who lived in jungles and carried out guarilla warfare against the Afghans. I'm assuming that the problem with female infanticide amongst Sikhs also began when Sikhs began settling down during the later misl period. The story of Maharaja Ranjit Singh's mother is also from that period.

[Xylitol]

generally, the periods of persecution are when a dharm's followers are most pure, later on people with less strenght of faith join and the possibility of having individuals lapsing increases. it's still the same low possiblity for the true adherents, but the kacha ones are in greater numbers.

[Guest zulu]

I may have a dig round to find some old quotes to shed more light on the matter.

As previously stated, none of what I am saying is to betaken as an excuse to excess on Bacardi and coke or "biskey", like our guys frequently do.

I think I read a quote about drinking in the book sicques, tigers or thieves something about being allowed to drink whatever they wanted to or something....

Also a rehitnama which says at times of battle it is okay to drink but at times of peace dont mention its name...

Edited February 19, 2011 by zulu

[Mr Sardar]

It is has been down hill after then and to go back up we need to infuse such rehat instrength. There have been loads of corrupt Sikhs since Misl period but even then and now those corrupt guys did some good things at the same time. Following all of rehat is difficult but takes the panth, and sangat to do so but so now it is difficult to have religious circles due to caste, jatha etc. I would also ask everyone who reads this to go to another Gurdwara you normally would not visit make friends go to another caste/jatha/sect gurdwara. Make friends and encourage intermarriage also give those women the rights they deserve and for each person to make that difference around all the people they know and in ones own families.

[chatanga1]

Also a rehitnama which says at times of battle it is okay to drink but at times of peace dont mention its name...

for what reason? Sukh nidhaan does all the things alcohol does and more.

[Guest zulu]

for what reason? Sukh nidhaan does all the things alcohol does and more.

Dutch courage maybe?

[dalsingh101]

That is a dodgy position Zulu. I know some people will try and make out like Sikhs used false (Dutch) courage to fight using this argument. Some may have but I'm even more sure that many fought out of faith and conviction in their cause, especially in the early 1700s. We have a NEAR contemporary account of a nihang who didn't take sukha leading the storming of some Afghan fort in NWFP for example.

for what reason? Sukh nidhaan does all the things alcohol does and more.

Nah, their effects are totally different on humans - and even these vary from individual to individual.

Edited February 19, 2011 by dalsingh101

[Mr Sardar]

http://www.sikhnet.com/news/end-curse-drugs-and-foeticide-punjab-dr-bains

[dalsingh101]

Documentary on nasha abuse in Panjab:

[dalsingh101]

Found this:

It is known to every Sikh that tobacco is forbidden by his religion, but it is not generally known that wine is equally forbidden. After I had quoted the Sikh tenets on this subject in public lectures at Simla, it was taken up by the enlightened Singh Sabha of Patiala; and a resolution in favour of total abstinence was signed by several of the best educated and most influential Sardars of the State.

Macauliffe in preface to The Sikh Religion (1909)

[Mr Sardar]

The patialla raja used to drink alot. Maybe you could find the actual document that was signed it would be good to post it on the internet and gurdwaras alike.

[Mr Sardar]

If you could get that document signed and we propogate that everywhere it could probably mitigate the problem and maybe bring it to an end one day.

[dalsingh101]

If you could get that document signed and we propogate that everywhere it could probably mitigate the problem and maybe bring it to an end one day.

Are you serious? Do you know the extent some Panjabi Sikhs drinks? How deeply ingrained in the culture it is? That letter wouldn't have diddly squat influence in my opinion. If anything, people would probably start saying:

"Look, our people all used to drink before and then Singh Sabha came along with their Christian puritan vibe and tricked us into being sober, the ba$*~£!s! Ayo, peg sheg layo!"

Edited March 11, 2011 by dalsingh101

[Guest zulu]

Patiala style peg....