Causes Of Discrimination Against Females Amongst Sikhs

[dalsingh101]

Thought I'd share this sisters work on gender inequality amongst apnay. What do you guys make of it?

The author lives in Toronto with her Sikh husband and son, both of whom she loves dearly. For over ten years she has worked in the highly discriminatory (in terms of gender, ethnicity, social background, economic status) environments of international physics research. She is one of the founding members of SAFAR, Institute for Sikh Feminist Research.

In seeking to explore whether there is political utility in asserting a Sikh thealogy there is efficacy in investigating the possible causes of the disconnect between the theory of Sikhi and its practise. At what point in history did this divergence occur, or did it always exist? I propose three contributive factors to the current state of gender inequality within the Sikh community: (1) male domination of Sikh scriptural education, (2) work, land and property rights under successive colonial rules which privileged men, and (3) prolonged periods of strife during which women were targeted victims of political violence.

Male domination of Sikh scriptural education

During the intense period of persecution from 1716 onwards, the Sikhs fled their homes, lands, their towns and villages and encamped in the forests (from where they conducted a guerrilla war against the state). In the process they left behind the places of worship and education, original handwritten manuscripts of religious texts, historical records and artefacts. In the absence of the Sikhs, two sects, the Udasis and Nirmalas, took possession of the Sikh places of worship and education. These were celibate sects of men trained and educated in the Vedic traditions. This period of history has led to the introduction of Vedic interpretations of Gurbani by the Udasis and Nirmalae [9] which persist to the present day. It is unlikely that in any culture a group of celibate men are likely to celebrate the feminine. Therefore unsurprisingly androcentric interpretations of Gurbani have dominated where women are marginalized, and to date, the empowering message of gender equality within Sikh scripture appears to have been ‘lost in translation’.Despite the efforts of reformist movements such as the Singh Sabha towards gender equality, the influence of the Udasis and Nirmalae continue to prevail in Sikh institutions. Today, the unelected ”gate-keepers” of the Panth, such as the majority of the Jathedars of the Five Takhats and the Sant Samaj, have been educated within traditions that have historically been heavily influenced by the Udasis and Nirmalae.

Work, land and property rights

Historically Sikh identity has been conflated with Punjabi cultural identity. The Punjab, the wheat basket of India, is the richest state per capita within the union of the state of India, where the economic wealth has been derived from intensive agriculture [10]. From the period of the British Raj [11] and following Indian independence, Indian state-controlled economy permitted only agricultural use of land in the Punjab. A consequence of the subsequent absence of industrialization, is that work is predominantly tied to the land. The ownership of arable land is highly valued since it is indicative of wealth and potential earning-power, however women were denied access to land through inheritance until as recently as 2005 [12]. In the twentieth century as a consequence of changes in farming methods there was a general withdrawal of women from direct participation in agricultural work, men and women’s work lives became very separated, this further consolidated the existing rigid segregation along gender lines (purdah [13]) [14]. With the relegation of women’s work to within the home and their reduced contribution to family-income, this meant that women’s work was not valued and women themselves were less esteemed [15].The absence of other sources of employment and work has arisen out of successive state policies. During the British Raj the Punjab economy was limited to a dominantly agrarian role and the Indian state has continued to restrict Punjab to only agricultural production. This imposition of a prolonged agrarian economy is instrumental in creating and sustaining economic and social inequities. Education is not universally valued within the agrarian communities due to the absence of employment for the educated. Women as well as non-landowners in rural areas continue to be marginalized, since they are denied economic and political independence.

Control over women’s bodies

The role of a woman in any community is fraught, women as biological reproducers of national and ethnic communities are positioned as signifiers of national or ethnic difference; women’s mobility and sexuality is strictly monitored in times of crises, war and environmental disaster [16]. To ensure that boundaries of the nation are maintained, chastity and reproductivity is monitored and regulated. Throughout history, a strategy of war has included the raping and impregnating women of the other community; sending the message that men cannot protect their families, a form of symbolic emasculation [17].I have read absolutely no historical accounts of this happening during the British Raj, however I have listened to eyewitness accounts of how the women of whole villages would be raped on mass by British soldiers stationed nearby [18]. During and in the aftermath of the traumas of 1947 and 1984 this strategy of war was also adopted. For over ten years after the invasion of Darbar Sahib, women (the daughters, sisters and wives) of ”militants” (or those suggested to be militants) were routinely raped and paraded naked through their villages. In this context Cynthia Enloe’s statement that a woman is either ”an icon to be defended or a spoil of war to be denigrated” [19] is so apt.The aftershocks of these past traumas continue to haunt the community, and have contributed to how daughters are raised within extended families. Daughters as young children, teenagers and adults are highly policed by family members, where all their movements are regulated and monitored, this over-protectiveness in the worst case leads to violence against women. The internalized intergenerational messages, usually conveyed by women to daughters, of fear and anxiety surrounding the protection of ”honour”, result in a reluctance in women themselves to make any contributions in the public spheres of life. Although in the Diaspora Sikh women are very present in the public sphere of professional life they continue to be less visible in the public sphere of religious life.

Footnotes:

9: Singh, Nikky-Guninder Kaur.”Re-Imagining the Divine in Sikhism.” Feminist Theology May 2008 vol. 16 no. 3 332-349. Print.

10: Mann, Gurinder Singh. “The Sikh Educational Heritage” in Studying the Sikhs: Issues for North America edited by Hawley, John Stratton and Mann, Gurinder Singh. SUNY Series in Religious Studies, State University of New York Press, 1993. Print.

Deol, Harnik. Religion and Nationalism in India: the Case of the Punjab. London: Routledge, 2000. Print. Shiva, Vandana. The Violence of the Green Revolution: Ecological degradation and political conflict in Punjab. Zed Press, New Delhi, 1992. Print.

11: ”[Punjab's] economy became increasingly agrarian in an age of industry, producing food and raw materials for exports in Europe” from Oldenburg, Veena Talwar. Dowry murder : the imperial origins of a cultural crime. Oxford. Oxford University Press, 2002. Print.

12: Land inheritance in India remained patrilineal until the 2005 Hindu Succession Act, previously women could inherit acquired land but not ancestral land. It is highly questionable whether women will actually exercise this right to inheritance.

13: Literally translates as ”curtain”, purdah is sill pervasive throughout all aspects of life in the Punjab, all the social norms of dress, conduct, work etc are governed by a strict segregation along gender, in public a woman would not even acknowledge a male member of her own (extended) family in case it may be seen as a transgression of purdah; however purdah has experienced a gradual erosion, especially in the cities where anonymity is possible (See Pettigrew, Sharma).

14: Agarwal B “”Bargaining” And Gender Relations: Within And Beyond The Household”, Feminist Economics, Volume 3, Number 1, 1 March 1997 , pp. 1-51(51); Sharma, U. Women, work and property in North-West India. London: Tavistock Publications. 1980; Pettigrew, Joyce J. M. Robber noblemen: A study of the political system of the Sikh Jats, Routledge & Kegan Paul (London and Boston) 1975

15: Mies, Maria. ”Indian women in subsistence and agricultural labour.” Women, Work and Development, 12 1986

16: Nagel, Joane. ”Masculinity and nationalism: gender and sexuality in the making of nations.” Ethnic and Racial Studies Volume 21, Issue 2, 1998, Pages 242-269. Print.

17: There are the well-known cases of this stratagem of war being used in the Congo, the former Yugoslavia but only in 2008 have Germans started to openly talk about the violence against women towards the end of the Second World War ”Historians estimate that close to 2 million German women and girls were raped [by Soviet troops] in the closing months of the war, many repeatedly.” http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,585779,00.html

18: I mention this because often the British Raj is remembered, by some parts of the Sikh communities, with nostalgia, they recall it as a period with good law and order. Whereas the Muslim man, where every Muslim man personified those who had perpetrated the violence of 1947, was often despised for decades in families that had suffered during the Partition of 1947, no such hatred was directed towards the British.

19: Enloe, C. Bananas, beaches and bases . Univ. of California Press. 1990. Print

Edited April 13, 2011 by dalsingh101

[kdsingh80]

I have already read it on TLH.No offense to this sister but many sikhs believe and want to mold sikhism with western feminist ideology.They believe that all the practices of gender discrimination in Sikhism were caused by Hindu influence.On the other hand whatever little I read from older rehatnama's there is hardly any evidence of hardcore gender equality applied by puratan sikhs.Infact some words against women were also written by them.So whether the type of westernised gender equality sikh women believe was in Sikhism is hard to believe.No doubt Condition of Sikh women was always better than Hindu or muslim women.

[dalsingh101]

I have already read it on TLH.No offense to this sister but many sikhs believe and want to mold sikhism with western feminist ideology.They believe that all the practices of gender discrimination in Sikhism were caused by Hindu influence.On the other hand whatever little I read from older rehatnama's there is hardly any evidence of hardcore gender equality applied by puratan sikhs.Infact some words against women were also written by them.So whether the type of westernised gender equality sikh women believe was in Sikhism is hard to believe.No doubt Condition of Sikh women was always better than Hindu or muslim women.

Whilst I agree that there is a reoccurring problem with some people of Sikh backgrounds projecting post enlightenment type thinking onto Sikhi, which essentially seems to lead to a conflating of Sikhi with modern liberal values, I do think that some of the threads outlined in the piece are interesting and may well have a measure of truth about them.

One thing we have to face is how women have indeed been on at the forefront of various abuse throughout all of the conflicts that have inflicted the Panjab, past and present. In this context it is interesting to remember accusations of kurimaaring by even high ranking past Sikhs such as Jassa Singh Ramgarhia and Sukha Singh (the one who helped slay Massa Ranghar).

Edited April 11, 2011 by dalsingh101

[kdsingh80]

Whilst I agree that there is a reoccurring problem with some people of Sikh backgrounds projecting post enlightenment type thinking onto Sikhi, which essentially seems to lead to a conflating of Sikhi with modern liberal values, I do think that some of the threads outlined in the piece are interesting and may well have a measure of truth about them.

One thing we have to face is how women have indeed been on at the forefront of various abuse throughout all of the conflicts that have inflicted the Panjab, past and present. In this context it is interesting to remember accusations of kurimaaring by even high ranking past Sikhs such as Jassa Singh Ramgarhia and Sukha Singh (the one who helped slay Massa Ranghar).

Women always were/are the worst victim of conflicts.May be we can say that evolution has lot to do with it.victorious men always kill men of other quam and take away their children and women.

[dalsingh101]

Women always were/are the worst victim of conflicts.May be we can say that evolution has lot to do with it.victorious men always kill men of other quam and take away their children and women.

Exactly. Now consider the impact of this on the culture of region that has experienced this type of stuff on a sustained basis. Reflect on how a region like Panjab has experienced invasions compared to say England or Mongolia.

Edited April 11, 2011 by dalsingh101

[HSD1]

I have already read it on TLH.No offense to this sister but many sikhs believe and want to mold sikhism with western feminist ideology.They believe that all the practices of gender discrimination in Sikhism were caused by Hindu influence.On the other hand whatever little I read from older rehatnama's there is hardly any evidence of hardcore gender equality applied by puratan sikhs.Infact some words against women were also written by them.So whether the type of westernised gender equality sikh women believe was in Sikhism is hard to believe.No doubt Condition of Sikh women was always better than Hindu or muslim women.

But that's no reason to carry on with the status quo is it? 300 years ago the roles of man and woman were well defined. If you havent noticed the world has changed a lot since then. Sikh women did an awful lot compared to women of other races pre-1849.

Dalsingh, it would be good of you to get the evidence (times/places etc) of british rapes in Punjab this author found, in order to stick it under the noses of the EDL morons on sikhsangat. I have read an account by a Jamaican poet in the 1920s where he said that rape by soldiers of local women was commonplace. I also remember a story on sikhsangat about a sikh who beat up four english policemen who tried to rape a punjabi girl near a well in the early 20th century. Just goes to show that the strongest always have their way and the weak have to put up with it.

[dalsingh101]

Dalsingh, it would be good of you to get the evidence (times/places etc) of british rapes in Punjab this author found, in order to stick it under the noses of the EDL morons on sikhsangat.

I thought the same thing but her footnote relating to that statement is thus:

18: I mention this because often the British Raj is remembered, by some parts of the Sikh communities, with nostalgia, they recall it as a period with good law and order. Whereas the Muslim man, where every Muslim man personified those who had perpetrated the violence of 1947, was often despised for decades in families that had suffered during the Partition of 1947, no such hatred was directed towards the British.

[HSD1]

Surely the oral accounts she must have heard would have mentioned places/date/scale of the atrocities etc? Is she contactable? A find like this isnt something to be sniffed at. Ah hell, post it on sikhsangat anyway.

no such hatred was directed towards the British

Not above an interpersonal level anyway lol.........

Edited April 11, 2011 by HSD 2

[kdsingh80]

Exactly. Now consider the impact of this on the culture of region that has experienced this type of stuff on a sustained basis. Reflect on how a region like Panjab has experienced invasions compared to say England or Mongolia.

I agree with that there is impact of all those invasions but still the condition of Punbjabi women is much better than saudi women.Saudi Arabia was never invaded after the invent of islam yet islam supressed all their rights.

Now coming to point of discrimination the biggest factor which is missing here is the culture that Girls

go to in laws family.No amount of property rights,education or earning can change this.Whatever woman earns always go to her in laws family.This is one of the biggest factor that cause discrimination and make Girl child unwanted.Even the most modern families in India refuse to take money from high earning daughters.

[kdsingh80]

But that's no reason to carry on with the status quo is it? 300 years ago the roles of man and woman were well defined. If you havent noticed the world has changed a lot since then. Sikh women did an awful lot compared to women of other races pre-1849.

I am not saying to carry on with status quo but it is better to live in reality rather than creating fantasy history just to satisfy your own personal belief .

[HSD1]

I am not saying to carry on with status quo but it is better to live in reality rather than creating fantasy history just to satisfy your own personal belief .

Lol, you mean like the sikh women who covered herself in mud and crawled through afghan lines to tell the Khalsa that the Sikhs in Jamrud were being besieged? Or the other accounts of sikh women getting themselves killed by blowing up gunpowder stores etc? There is not fantasy here. The author is trying to analyze the psyche of the sikh man and sikh society at large and the attitudes to their womenfolk. Equality doesnt come into it. Just because some purataan sources hate on women doesnt mean we should do that as well. I'm sure there are things that purataan sources speak of thay you would find disagreeable. Add to this equation that mistreatment of women gives them the justification to rebel against these attitudes. Dont tell me that women who rebel arent a major concern, the threads on sikhsangat devoted to women problems is ridiculous. Treating your own women with respect is a cornerstone of forming a nation. If people want to hate on them dont be surprised if they dont hang around long enough to listen.

[dalsingh101]

I agree with that there is impact of all those invasions but still the condition of Punbjabi women is much better than saudi women.Saudi Arabia was never invaded after the invent of islam yet islam supressed all their rights.

I tell you what, a lot of those Arab women still aren't openly whining like many apneean are about their blokes.

Even if what you say is true, we still have to deal with that.

Plus we kill off a lot more jananis than them through foeticide anyway.

Edited April 11, 2011 by dalsingh101

[dalsingh101]

Lol, you mean like the sikh women who covered herself in mud and crawled through afghan lines to tell the Khalsa that the Sikhs in Jamrud were being besieged? Or the other accounts of sikh women getting themselves killed by blowing up gunpowder stores etc? There is not fantasy here.

Though evidence does seem to point at much more freedom with Sikh women than many of their nonSikh contemporaries of the time, let's not even mistakenly give the impression that any such freedoms where akin to what 'modern' women are clamoring for now. i.e. financial and sexual.

The author is trying to analyze the psyche of the sikh man and sikh society at large and the attitudes to their womenfolk. Equality doesnt come into it. Just because some purataan sources hate on women doesnt mean we should do that as well. I'm sure there are things that purataan sources speak of thay you would find disagreeable. Add to this equation that mistreatment of women gives them the justification to rebel against these attitudes. Dont tell me that women who rebel arent a major concern, the threads on sikhsangat devoted to women problems is ridiculous. Treating your own women with respect is a cornerstone of forming a nation. If people want to hate on them dont be surprised if they dont hang around long enough to listen.

I agree.

KDS in back home and has that accepting mentality towards the order of things that frequently characterises Indians. You have to try and get used to it. KDs you could do with trying to think outside this Indian box yourself. I always hear words to the effect of 'that's just how it goes' from you about most social/cultural things that need reforming.

Edited April 12, 2011 by dalsingh101

[HSD1]

Though evidence does seem to point at much more freedom with Sikh women than many of their nonSikh contemporaries of the time, let's not even mistakenly give the impression that any such freedoms where akin to what 'modern' women are clamoring for now. i.e. financial and sexual.

What do people think of forming an independant Sikh notion of what equality for women entails? I have no problem with financial equality for women. Having your own source of income allows one to not have to depend on parents/family/spouse, which in turn means you dont have to put up with their abuse. Nothing wrong with forging your own path in life.

As for sexual equality, the way I see it is that in the west women have clamoured for equality. As they got equality, what did they do? They tore up the idea of what a women is and just became like their menfolk. The stereotype of the western women is just a reflection of what the western man is like. Now if we Sikh men acted like we were meant to, we could give women equality safe in the knowledge they would still act decent if they wanted to remain within our community. But so many of us drink, shag and act hedonistic whilst our parents dont care, where as girls get the grief for even thinking about it. If sikh men set the example, sikh women would follow. If sikh women still werent interested, trust me, plenty of non-sikh women would be interested in sikh men who took care of themselves and acted like real men. I dont want to go offtopic but I'll leave it there. If you know what I'm on about, good. If not, go back to sleep.

[kdsingh80]

Lol, you mean like the sikh women who covered herself in mud and crawled through afghan lines to tell the Khalsa that the Sikhs in Jamrud were being besieged? Or the other accounts of sikh women getting themselves killed by blowing up gunpowder stores etc? There is not fantasy here.

HSD

I have started a topic whether the Kaur name was actually given by Guru gobind singh ji?

http://www.sikhawareness.com//index.php?showtopic=13957

Unfortunately I have yet to see credible evidence provided by scholars of SA

As far examples you have provided are good.I have always said Sikh women enjoyed better status than other women but Puratan sources are from Sikhs which we call great gursikhs.So one can easily see what was the status of Sikh women then unless those Puratan sources are adulterated.

Also No one can deny the fact that Polygamy was widely practiced by Sikhs but now suddenly sikhs have started seeing polygamy as crime which was never part of Sikhism so is it not molding your own belief into Sikhism?How many women today accept that polygamy was their in Sikhism?

[kdsingh80]

KDs you could do with trying to think outside this Indian box yourself.

Don't understand what it has to do with this thread.I am searching honest answers about Sikhism that what was the puratan sikhism .What type of equality not in term of gender but in everything it provided to People.Unfortunately what i see going on sikh sites is people are selling their personal thinking with a bit of history ,gurbani to justify their beleifs.

[HSD1]

In that topic does the use of devi mean that the women were to be referred to as goddesses then? Still a major sign of respect.

As for the status of women, it is not just equality but respect and dignity. No one on this earth should be devoid of being given dignity and respect if they act normally and lawfully. Especially if they are part of one's own community. A fundamental part of Sikhi is rationalism. Guru Nanak Dev Ji practiced this when he physically ridiculed the practices of muslims and hindus. We face an ever changing world. Purataan sources talk about a wide variety of things. If we put them all into practice, there would be many things that sikhs of western and hindustani extraction would find unpalatable. No one like hypocrisy. In Saudi Arabia the women have ways of dealing with their situation which dont make news stories. Same goes for many muslim societies. But we are not muslim. Sikhs tended to practice what they preached. Now you can try to enact what the purataan sources say, but dont expect sikh women to hang around to be in polygamous relationships. Look at the men on Sikhsangat, they can just about handle one woman. I've heards stories about polyandry from some sikhs talking about Punjab. The real question is that do we want social cohesion and the strength we can derive from that, or do we want our attitudes influenced by the british/indians etc. Sikh women want respect, dignity and to act like sikh men are. Trying to tell them they have more freedom than some random part of the muslim world isnt going to wash. Read what Gurukameet put in this thread:

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/60108-how-to-stop/page__st__20

[dalsingh101]

What do people think of forming an independant Sikh notion of what equality for women entails?

A long time ago I 'blogged' with some West London feminist apnee on the Pickled Politics forum (I know, I know...) about this very topic.

My best friend and flatmate for a long time was an educated African lady who was what she described as a 'Black feminist'. She explained to me how this differed from mainstream (read white) feminism. She told me how the issues that affected females like her with markedly different to the ones effecting white women. Their wants/needs and world views were different. One eye opening thing she said to me was that "not only are we dealing with sexism but we are also dealing with white racism and exoticism at the same time, this makes our cause different from white women". She didn't relate to white feminism at all.

Going back to that apnee. When we spoke of the Sikh women's struggle, I mentioned these things (as many mainstream/white feminists blogged there too). I suggested that Sikh women too need to define and create their own customised form of feminism instead of jumping on the white version. It's my belief that mainstream feminists end up working in an adjunct way with white men and their agendas, including the attempted domination of ethnic men. You can see this in how whitey constantly uses 'womens rights' as a plank to beat nonwhite men with and even as partial justification to invade their countries.

So I agree with your suggestion but this is something Sikh women need to do themselves. We should fully support them in this. Otherwise they just dimwittedly jump onto the white slag version. That is what that apnee seemed to do in the end. When they do that they get bundles of support for it too!

As for sexual equality, the way I see it is that in the west women have clamoured for equality. As they got equality, what did they do? They tore up the idea of what a women is and just became like their menfolk.

That's what I think too. Many white feminists still seem to have an inferiority complex over men and think that only by being exactly like 'men' (as they know them) will they be something.

The stereotype of the western women is just a reflection of what the western man is like. Now if we Sikh men acted like we were meant to, we could give women equality safe in the knowledge they would still act decent if they wanted to remain within our community.

I think it's more complicated than that. Like all men have the potential to be a complete kunjar, all women have the potential to be slappers given the right stimulus/environment. England is one of the worst places for this. Don't underplay the strong social needs of women and the abject terror they feel at being 'different' and the way this can dictate their behaviour when surrounded by the majority culture.

But so many of us drink, shag and act hedonistic whilst our parents dont care, where as girls get the grief for even thinking about it. If sikh men set the example, sikh women would follow.

I disagree, it's more complex than that.

I remember when the instances of Sikh men behaving like this were minimal. In my parents generation infidelity was very rare. Even in my generation we didn't have hordes of he-slags. Apneean didn't have slutty role models either. That didn't stop them getting a terrible rep for these things.

If sikh women still werent interested, trust me, plenty of non-sikh women would be interested in sikh men who took care of themselves and acted like real men. I dont want to go offtopic but I'll leave it there. If you know what I'm on about, good. If not, go back to sleep.

Personally, I think you are on some solid stuff here. If it has got that bad, instead of running around after girls that don't want to be with apnay, Sikh men should go with those that do. Actually having competition would probably make them (apneean) act differently too, what with way female psychology often makes them so competitive with each other over men.

Edited April 11, 2011 by dalsingh101

[dalsingh101]

Don't understand what it has to do with this thread.I am searching honest answers about Sikhism that what was the puratan sikhism .What type of equality not in term of gender but in everything it provided to People.Unfortunately what i see going on sikh sites is people are selling their personal thinking with a bit of history ,gurbani to justify their beleifs.

It just seems like you accept all things in the panth as inevitable, no manner how backwards they are.

I agree that people have a tendency to mould Sikhi according to their preferences/understanding. You should factor in that even the writers of those puratan rehits may have been doing this.

I think Sikhi is going to be constantly explored and interpreted in the context of changing environments. There is a danger that failing to do this will make it stagnant and irrelevant to the everyday experiences of everyday people.

[kdsingh80]

I agree that people have a tendency to mould Sikhi according to their preferences/understanding. You should factor in that even the writers of those puratan rehits may have been doing this.

No Doubt that bias was in Puratan literature that's why New Rehat was Drafted in 1945,but the problem is that new Rehat also come's under heavy firing from liberals as well as old sampradayes .Just remember how the guy on TLH indirectly justify Halal by saying Rehat was drafted in 1930s.So When something does not suit your mind people just diswon it by saying that it is not puratan and when something is taken from Puratan source then may be the literature is adulterated

I think Sikhi is going to be constantly explored and interpreted in the context of changing environments. There is a danger that failing to do this will make it stagnant and irrelevant to the everyday experiences of everyday people.

Nothing wrong with exploration but if Sikhi is interpreted according to time then I am afraid New version of Sikhism will come in every 20 years according to time

One thing that always come to my mind is that what went wrong with Sikhism? Why sikhs lost their martial

spirit? Is it because Sikhs always Gave too much importance to Uncut hair and turbans while totally ignored martial aspect of Sikhi

[kdsingh80]

In that topic does the use of devi mean that the women were to be referred to as goddesses then? Still a major sign of respect.

You are free to interpret what you want but the fact is devi is hindu word.One can say Ram,das, lal are also respectful words but Sikhs always use them in humilating manner for other Sikhs.The main question is every sikh child is taught Guru gobind singh gave Singh to men and Kaur to women and now you suddenly found that there is little evidence that Kaur was actually given By Guru gobind singh is little bit depressing.

As for the status of women, it is not just equality but respect and dignity. No one on this earth should be devoid of being given dignity and respect if they act normally and lawfully.

There are plenty of Sikh families like mine where women not only have lot of respect but also hold much of the household power despite not earning ,so women are treated with respect in plenty of Sikh families.

A fundamental part of Sikhi is rationalism. Guru Nanak Dev Ji practiced this when he physically ridiculed the practices of muslims and hindus

About rationalism the less said the better it is.Many Sikh missionaries are rejecting each and everything in sikhism by calling it non rational.

Now you can try to enact what the purataan sources say, but dont expect sikh women to hang around to be in polygamous relationships

Not saying that Sikh women accept Polygamy but they should accept that Some Guru's as well as Puratan Singh's have more than one wife unlike creating fantasy stories that Guru gobind singh ji have only one wife

Sikh women want respect, dignity and to act like sikh men are. Trying to tell them they have more freedom than some random part of the muslim world isnt going to wash. Read what Gurukameet put in this thread:

I have read what Gurukaameet wrote .Unfortunately that does not justify Sikh women marrying Muslims or Hindu's .What equality they get in those Religion?What I said in that thread I am repeating in this thread too there not one but plenty of Sikh families who treat their daughters with equality respect but still they end up with Hindu husbands.Manmohan singh's daughters are fine example of this.They all are very highly educated yet none of them is married to a Sikh.

Also let me tell you I have 6 cousin sisters ,none of them are married to Sikhs.The one which are married are married to non sikhs despite all the Equality dignity respect given to them.Even the younger one are quite hopeless case.At best I can that maximum of 1 or 2 end up marying Sikhs if that is possible

[Mithar]

I have read what Gurukaameet wrote .Unfortunately that does not justify Sikh women marrying Muslims or Hindu's .What equality they get in those Religion?What I said in that thread I am repeating in this thread too there not one but plenty of Sikh families who treat their daughters with equality respect but still they end up with Hindu husbands.Manmohan singh's daughters are fine example of this.They all are very highly educated yet none of them is married to a Sikh.

Also let me tell you I have 6 cousin sisters ,none of them are married to Sikhs.The one which are married are married to non sikhs despite all the Equality dignity respect given to them.Even the younger one are quite hopeless case.At best I can that maximum of 1 or 2 end up marying Sikhs if that is possible

That is true. I have seen this in my family also. I have a cousin who was also treated with a lot of equality and freedom. She was highly educated. But when she turned around 24, she puts khay on the heads of her family and married a Madrasi. I have seen this all too often where this so called western style freedom is practiced by foolish fathers and mothers. This is especially true for the daughters of Sikh army officers, nearly all of whom marry non Sikh men.

Sikh women should be taught the examples of the women of the Gurus household. They were religious, pious, devoted to their families and Dharm. They were good daughters, sister, wives, mothers and grandmothers. They were the ideal women. Western culture and freedom is not that good when applied to family, it corrupts one's daughter very easily. One should give a mix of traditional plus Sikh values to their children.

[kdsingh80]

That is true. I have seen this in my family also. I have a cousin who was also treated with a lot of equality and freedom. She was highly educated. But when she turned around 24, she puts khay on the heads of her family and married a Madrasi. I have seen this all too often where this so called western style freedom is practiced by foolish fathers and mothers. This is especially true for the daughters of Sikh army officers, nearly all of whom marry non Sikh men.

But First our own brigade of western educated Liberal men and women have to accept this truth.They just take examples from families where Girls are not treated with equality and attack Sikh men and Sikh society while totally ignoring the other side of story

[dalsingh101]

No Doubt that bias was in Puratan literature that's why New Rehat was Drafted in 1945,but the problem is that new Rehat also come's under heavy firing from liberals as well as old sampradayes .Just remember how the guy on TLH indirectly justify Halal by saying Rehat was drafted in 1930s.

That was lame because for all the more grey areas of puratan rehits, the issue with halal is one of the few that is almost unequivocally persistent throughout them.

So When something does not suit your mind people just diswon it by saying that it is not puratan and when something is taken from Puratan source then may be the literature is adulterated

This is going to be an ongoing concern as there is no definitive, set in stone, unchallengeable rehat.

Nothing wrong with exploration but if Sikhi is interpreted according to time then I am afraid New version of Sikhism will come in every 20 years according to time

You can see it that way. I think it can also be conceived in terms of Sikh society's understanding of the faith could become more developed and in depth as we build up our body of knowledge and experience of it over time and interrogate it with more precision and answer more and more questions in this way.

One thing that always come to my mind is that what went wrong with Sikhism? Why sikhs lost their martial

spirit? Is it because Sikhs always Gave too much importance to Uncut hair and turbans while totally ignored martial aspect of Sikhi

To me this one is simple. True independent Sikh martial spirit was suppressed after the Anglo-Sikh war and only a controlled version which worked in an adjunct way to the British imperial agenda was allowed to be manifest. Outside of this, the martial culture was largely subverted into symbolism as opposed to real life practice which kept one militarily prepared in the modern context. Only small amounts of people tried to resist this (mostly unsuccessfully) like the Gaddarittes and those who joined the antiBritish movement during WW2.

Most Sikhs became preoccupied with securing employment or functioning in the new economic environment created by the invaders. This obviously didn't value military prowess outside of those that maintained colonial interests. The psychology of Sikhs changed in all this, to one of subjects, instead of the free spirited revolutionaries that emerged in 1699.

[dalsingh101]

But First our own brigade of western educated Liberal men and women have to accept this truth.They just take examples from families where Girls are not treated with equality and attack Sikh men and Sikh society while totally ignoring the other side of story

As they say in England:

You're damned if you do, and you're damned if you don't.

Personally I feel the situation is too far out of control to be quickly reversed now. The solution will have to be a long term one.

Edited April 12, 2011 by dalsingh101