Documentary On Galaxies

[dalsingh101]

ਗਾਵਨਿ ਤੁਧਨੋ ਖੰਡ ਮੰਡਲ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੰਡਾ ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਰਖੇ ਤੇਰੇ ਧਾਰੇ ॥

The worlds, solar systems and galaxies, created and arranged by Your Hand, sing of You.

Found this absolutely fascinating. Strongly recommended. Really brings home the scale of our planet and even milkyway in relation to the rest of cosmos:

http://www.megavideo.com/?v=QA1JLVCQ

I wonder how advanced Indic knowledge of the cosmos was around the time of our Gurus?

Edited April 25, 2011 by dalsingh101

[Mekhane'ch Jannat]

There is an interesting cosmology from medieval times in relation to the musical scale

DO - DOminus (almighty all powerful ALL Suns and galaxies)

SI - SIdera (stars - galaxies)

LA - via LActea (milky Way)

SOL - SOL (SUn)

FA - FAta (The fates or known as the planets)

MI - MIcrocosmos (Earth -Human Beings)

RE - REgina coelum (queen of the sky - The Moon)

DO - DOminus

Modern western astronomy is schizophrenic. By this is meant that the subjective individual is considered as secondary and the physical fact as a primary truth. Human experience is not considered as important as a physical fact, knowable through the five senses. The absurdity of this position is self evident.

The ancients knew that the Earth rotated around the Sun (Pythagoras as early as 3rd century BC) There is evidence the Vedic civilization had knowledge of the cosmos, which can be shown through their knowledge of the precession of the equinoxes recorded in the Veda. In order for western imperialists to further their agenda of controlling everything they have to utilise a crude form of social darwinism. Modern astronomy is a way of 'wowing' people into thinking that we are the peak of civilization and our ancestors were savages who knew nothing.

It is interesting to consider a SIkh cosmology. The five Khands in BabaJi's Japji Sahib Ji, maybe can tentaively correlated thusly:

Sach Khand - DO - Dominus - The All The Absolute The Unknowable ALL

Karam Khand - SI - Sidera - The Galaxies

-- ------------LA- Via Lactea - The Milky Way

Saram Khand - SOL - The Sun

Gyaan Khand - FA - The Planets or the Fates

Dharam Khand - Mi - The Earth

--------------Re - The moon

[dalsingh101]

I think you are doing way too much projection there myself Jannat. Especially with the khands.

One interesting point I noted was the relative smallness of our sun in our milkyway. Sure it might dominate our lives but really it is a pin prick in the wider galaxy. One of billions of stars.

Note how important iron is to the galaxy and life itself. Sarb loh!

Each coloured light/blob in this image is a galaxy.....

Personally I start to wonder about my significance to God in all this at times.

[Guest]

When i happen to get stressed on grishti day to day life, social daily chores, finances. I try to see myself from top of millions of galaxies.. i feel really comfort to know how insignificant my social daily chores, finances stresses, gristhi occasional issues really are. It would be wonderful to live life all the time in that gyan, don't even need to look at from top of millions of galaxies (i just use that as reference point)... our ultimate goal and gyan to destroy stress and live in anand, is to see this world including this jeva antish karan, panj bhotak chola from the atma...then watch the magic, nothing matters at that point, everything will seem upadhi(changing in vahiguroo hakum), hari da roop.

[SURYADEV]

haven't seen the vid yet but if its the one with the deep space pic taken by Hubble into the darkest patch of sky. then thats the most incredible photo i've ever seen.

there is a hindu website that details indic astronomy mathematics etc.i'll try to find the site. though it does come across as very indo-centric in their world view.

[dalsingh101]

Andromeda: The nearest galaxy to us.

[dalsingh101]

What are the Gurmukhi and (if they are different) Panjabi words for:

1) Planets

2) Solar systems

3) Galaxies

4) The cosmos/universe

Planets are ਗ੍ਰਹਿ

What exactly is a ਖੰਡ, ਮੰਡਲ and a ਬ੍ਰਹਮੰਡ?

ਬ੍ਰਹਮੰਡ is defined as the cosmos/universe is one dictionary but then you have this:

"ਕੋਟਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੰਡ ਕੋ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਸੁਆਮੀ". (ਸੋਰ ਮਃ ੫)

What about ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟੀ?

What exactly is a ਲੋਅ?

Edited April 26, 2011 by dalsingh101

[SURYADEV]

the last pic in post 3 is the ultra deep field by hubble space telescope.

THat photo is what exists in the darkest part of the sky where astronomers thought they wouldnt find a thing. What youre seeing there in terms of size is the same area if you would stick your thumb out at arms length, then another arms lentgh again. that whole pic comes from the area that your thumb could cover in the sky at two arms lengths!

incredible!!!!!!!

[Mekhane'ch Jannat]

Dalsingh Ji

Khand means piece or a shard. e.g. a whole pot smashes into different khands

Mandal is circle or elliptical orbit

Brahm Anda is just that Brahma's Egg, according to puranik cosmology the universe was emanated from a 'golden egg'

The egg is a symbol. its shape is elliptic like the orbits of planets and it contains 'life' so it became a sign for something else.

Graha means grasping or seizing. PLanet actually means wanderer. Graha and PLanet are not synonomous even though the relate to the same phenomena. Ancient Hindus saw the 'planets' not as physical objects but as fates the seize your mind and make you experience mental states. E.g. if a person starts wearing all black clothes and acts depressed then Saturn has 'seized' his mind.

Srishti means creation or more specifically an outflowing of creation like rivers as the word in its concrete sense is derived from the flowing of rivers. The concrete always preceeds the abstract in language. (English has become almost abstracted into meaningless! no relation to reality)

Loa is the same as Lok. Originally it meant seeing and then world and in punjabi now it is used in the sense of a group of people.

Maybe by linking the meanings it can be construed as the viewpoint of a large group of people which determines their world outlook or which 'world' they inhabit.

[dalsingh101]

Dalsingh Ji

Khand means piece or a shard. e.g. a whole pot smashes into different khands

Mandal is circle or elliptical orbit

Brahm Anda is just that Brahma's Egg, according to puranik cosmology the universe was emanated from a 'golden egg'

The egg is a symbol. its shape is elliptic like the orbits of planets and it contains 'life' so it became a sign for something else.

Graha means grasping or seizing. PLanet actually means wanderer. Graha and PLanet are not synonomous even though the relate to the same phenomena. Ancient Hindus saw the 'planets' not as physical objects but as fates the seize your mind and make you experience mental states. E.g. if a person starts wearing all black clothes and acts depressed then Saturn has 'seized' his mind.

Srishti means creation or more specifically an outflowing of creation like rivers as the word in its concrete sense is derived from the flowing of rivers. The concrete always preceeds the abstract in language. (English has become almost abstracted into meaningless! no relation to reality)

Loa is the same as Lok. Originally it meant seeing and then world and in punjabi now it is used in the sense of a group of people.

Maybe by linking the meanings it can be construed as the viewpoint of a large group of people which determines their world outlook or which 'world' they inhabit.

It just seems to point at lack of hard definition of vocabulary to me? When you study any scientific based subject in the west you do get used to very specific, 'technical', precise definitions of words, but when it comes to our own, we don't seem to have that?

I mean lets compare your definition of mandal with an online dictionaries for example:

You: Mandal is circle or elliptical orbit

3 other definitions:

SGGS Gurmukhi-Gurmukhi Dictionary

(1) ਦੇਸ਼ (ਸ਼ਬਦਾਰਥ) ਚਕਰ, ਬ੍ਰਹਮੰਡ ਦਾ ਇਕ ਚੱਕਰ ਜਿਸ ਵਿਚ ਇਕ ਸੂਰਜ ਇਕ ਚੰਦਰਮਾ ਤੇ ਧਰਤੀ ਆਦਿਕ ਗਿਣੇ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ (ਦਰਪਨ)। (2) ਤਾਰਿਆਂ ਦਾ ਦੇਸ। (3) ਸਮੂਹ। (4) ਟਿੱਕਿਆ ਹੋਇਆ, ਜੜਿਆ ਹੋਇਆ। (5) ਸਭਾ, ਦਾਇਰਾ, ਸੰਗ, ਹੋਰ ਦੇਖੋ ਮੰਡਲੁ। ਉਦਾਹਰਣ: ਸੰਤ ਮੰਡਲ ਮਹਿ ਜਨਮ ਮਰਣੁ ਰਹੈ। ਸੰਤ ਮੰਡਲ ਮਹਿ ਜਮ ਕਿਛੂ ਨ ਕ

English Translation

n.m. congregation, constellation; group, association, society, social circle; circle, circumference; region, sphere; administrative division, district, sub division; department, halo around the sun or the moon.

Mahan Kosh Encyclopedia

ਸੰ. {ਸੰਗ੍ਯਾ}. ਗੋਲਾਕਾਰ ਘੇਰਾ. ਦਾਯਰਹ (Circle)। (2) ਸੌ ਯੋਜਨ ਦਾ ਦੇਸ਼। (3) ਉਹ ਇਲਾਕਾ, ਜਿਸ ਵਿੱਚ ਬਾਰਾਂ ਰਾਜੇ ਜੁਦੇ ਜੁਦੇ ਰਾਜ ਕਰਦੇ ਹੋਣ. "ਕੇਤੇ ਮੰਡਲ ਦੇਸ਼". (ਜਪੁ)। (4) ਸੰਸਾਰ. ਜਗਤ. "ਮਰਣ ਲਿਖਾਇ ਮੰਡਲ ਮਹਿ ਆਏ". (ਧਨਾ ਅਃ ਮਃ ੧) "ਪੂਰਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਗਲ ਮੰਡਲ ਏਕੁ ਸੁਆਮੀ". (ਮਾਲੀ ਮਃ ੫)। (5) ਸਭਾ. ਦੀਵਾਨ. "ਸੰਤਮੰਡਲ ਮਹਿ ਹਰਿ ਮਨਿ ਵਸੈ". (ਭੈਰ ਮਃ ੫)। (6) ਸਮੁਦਾਯ. ਗਰੋਹ. "ਤਾਰਿਕਾ ਮੰਡਲ ਜਨਕ ਮੋਤੀ". (ਸੋਹਿਲਾ)। (7) ਫੌਜ ਦਾ ਕੈਂਪ। (8) ਰਿਗਵੇਦ ਦੇ ਹਿੱਸੇ, ਜੈਸੇ ਰਾਮਾਯਣ ਦੇ ਕਾਂਡ ਅਤੇ ਭਾਗਵਤ ਦੇ ਸਕੰਧ ਹਨ। (9) ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਦਾ ਭਾਗ. ਕਾਂਡ. ਪਰਵ। (10) ਯੋਗਮਤ ਅਤੇ ਵੈਦ੍ਯਕ ਅਨੁਸਾਰ ੪੦ ਦਿਨਾਂ ਦਾ ਸਮਾਂ। (11) ਕੁੱਤਾ। (12) ਸੱਪ। (13) ਚਾਲੀ ਯੋਜਨ ਲੰਮਾ ਅਤੇ ਵੀਹ ਯੋਜਨ ਚੌੜਾ ਇਲਾਕਾ। (14) ਗੇਂਦ. ਫਿੰਡ। (15) ਰਥ ਦਾ ਪਹੀਆ। (16) ਭੋਜਨ ਕਰਨ ਵੇਲੇ ਹਿੰਦੂਮਤ ਅਨੁਸਾਰ ਚਾਰੇ ਪਾਸੇ ਕੱਢੀ ਹੋਈ ਲੀਕ (ਕਾਰ).

Edited April 27, 2011 by dalsingh101

[dalsingh101]

Maybe I'm ignoring the obvious, the Indic cosmologist didn't conceptualise the universe like modern astronomy does. Although they did get a good few concepts spot on.

???

So they understood planets and the way they rotated around each other. They probably realise a bunch of planets were intricately involved in doing this around each other.

Did they realise that the moon rotated around the earth and the earth around the sun? Surely yes?

But then did they fathom that a lot of planets are clustered together to form a galaxy and that a lot of these types of galaxies existed?

Edited April 26, 2011 by dalsingh101

[Mekhane'ch Jannat]

It just seems to point at lack of hard definition of vocabulary to me? When you study any scientific based subject in the west you do get used to very specific, 'technical', precise definitions of words, but when it comes to our own, we don't seem to have that?

Someone once said when you try to pin down a concept with a technical language, all you pin down is it's shadow. Thats western science for you smoke and shadows.

Mandal in the context of indian astronomy would mean an elliptical orbit. Mandal used in Sant-mandal would not mean an elliptical orbit of sants, but a group or congregation of sants. I do not see any ambiguity or lack of hard definition, on the contrary indian language defines terms highly precisely but the context has to be taken into account. Indic languages are more concerned with the essential inner meaning of a word. English is more concerned with outer form and with an excessive obsession with classifying outer phenomena, they call this a technical language, neglecting the fact that language evokes images and associations in the mind. These images and associations may be chaotic and disordered but the outer language may seen to be technical and orderly.

[dalsingh101]

Someone once said when you try to pin down a concept with a technical language, all you pin down is it's shadow. Thats western science for you smoke and shadows.

Mandal in the context of indian astronomy would mean an elliptical orbit. Mandal used in Sant-mandal would not mean an elliptical orbit of sants, but a group or congregation of sants. I do not see any ambiguity or lack of hard definition, on the contrary indian language defines terms highly precisely but the context has to be taken into account. Indic languages are more concerned with the essential inner meaning of a word. English is more concerned with outer form and with an excessive obsession with classifying outer phenomena, they call this a technical language, neglecting the fact that language evokes images and associations in the mind. These images and associations may be chaotic and disordered but the outer language may seen to be technical and orderly.

Okay but if we use the example at hand of astronomy, then it appears as if the western method does have it's advantages too. Although I would agree that the western approaches has too strong a tendency towards reductionalism and positivitism that leads to skewed perceptions in particular fields, especially those concerned with human spiritual belief, behaviour/emotion - sometimes it is a an exceptionally useful tool.

Indic languages are more concerned with the essential inner meaning of a word.

They can also get carried away with this and start to project in 'weird' directions. With astronomy, the western 'object orientated' approach explains a lot in a way that makes good sense. Instead of conceptualising the moon as a mother or the sun as a god, we have a whole broken down into it's composite sub structures.

Spheres - Solar systems - Galaxies - The cosmos

Now, only if we could establish what lies beyond those vortexes at the centre of spiral galaxies.....

I guess these are modern conceptualisations and I shouldn't be surprised if they aren't modeled in older Indic terminology.

Edited April 27, 2011 by dalsingh101

[Maha Singh]

The infinite within us is far greater than the infinite outside us.

[Mithar]

The infinite within us is far greater than the infinite outside us.

Very interesting statement. Please explain this.

[Guest]

Very interesting statement. Please explain this.

Jo Bhramandai So Pindaie, Jo Khojee So Pavaie || (Bhagat Pipa, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji)

[dalsingh101]

Here's an interesting tuk:

ਜਲਿ ਥਲਿ ਜੀਆ ਪੁਰੀਆ ਲੋਆ ਆਕਾਰਾ ਆਕਾਰ ॥

There are beings and creatures in the water and on the land, in the worlds and universes, form upon form.

Ang 466

Prof. Sahib Singh: ਜਲ ਵਿਚ ਰਹਿਣ ਵਾਲੇ, ਧਰਤੀ ਉੱਤੇ ਵੱਸਣ ਵਾਲੇ, ਬੇਅੰਤ ਪੁਰੀਆਂ, ਲੋਕਾਂ ਅਤੇ ਬ੍ਰਹਿਮੰਡ ਦੇ ਜੀਵ-ਉਹ ਸਾਰੇ ਜੋ ਕੁਝ ਆਖਦੇ ਹਨ ਸਭ ਕੁਝ, (ਹੇ ਕਰਤਾਰ!) ਤੂੰ ਜਾਣਦਾ ਹੈਂ, ਉਹਨਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਤੇਰਾ ਹੀ ਆਸਰਾ ਹੈ।

Edited April 30, 2011 by dalsingh101

[dalsingh101]

ਤਿਥੈ ਭਗਤ ਵਸਹਿ ਕੇ ਲੋਅ ॥ ਕਰਹਿ ਅਨੰਦੁ ਸਚਾ ਮਨਿ ਸੋਇ ॥

The devotees of many worlds dwell there. They celebrate; their minds are imbued with the True Lord.

Edited May 7, 2011 by dalsingh101