sukhasingh Posted July 23, 2003 Report Share Posted July 23, 2003 Is true that in the time of the misal period of Sikh history, Amrit was given to Jat (Farmers first) was there any reasons for this ? or is this just incorrect information. :roll: No a anti-caste posts please, just want to know why 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sukhasingh Posted July 23, 2003 Author Report Share Posted July 23, 2003 one reason in PM "Well the main reason behind it is probably the Rajputisation of the Jats" 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted July 23, 2003 Report Share Posted July 23, 2003 Jats and Rajputs are linked as ethnic groups. Amrit was a way in awakening the old warrior traditions in Panjabi Jat farmers and get these traditions to serve Sikhi 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sukhasingh Posted July 23, 2003 Author Report Share Posted July 23, 2003 i was also thinking that it may be to do with the fact that, other occupations such as, shop keepers,traders etc would be able to move their occupation else where, whereas a jat would have only his land to live from, also a jat would not be jat without his land. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Punjabi Nationalist Posted July 23, 2003 Report Share Posted July 23, 2003 Actually, all social castes, or sub-ethnic groups of Punjab, are linked to eachother, whether they are Jat, Khatri, Rajput, or Brahmin. A Punjabi Rajput is of the same ethnicity as a Punjabi Jat, both are Punjabis. 'Rajput' and 'Jat' are hereditary titles of a social caste which was likely created by Brahmins after the revival of Hinduism in Punjab during the brief Gupta period, if im not mistaken... They are not true ethnic groups, and are certainly not 'homogenous' groups or races, as you can find Jats and Rajputs in most parts of South Asia. I have my serious doubts that Jats received Amrit before any other social-caste of Punjab did, since caste has no value in Sikhism. BTW, even if they did receive Amrit first, there are divisions among Jats and Rajputs. So which 'Jat clans' would have been given Amrit first? Im not so clear on Jats, but my family is supposed to be 'Rajput', and there is a hierarchy system among Rajputs based on clan or family name, im sure the same is true for Jats, as it is for Khatris and Brahmins of Punjab too. Caste is quite complex, its highly unlikely that Amrit was given to Jats first. If it was, then which 'Jats' came first??? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GABROO KHALISTAN DAH Posted July 23, 2003 Report Share Posted July 23, 2003 NO1 RECIEVED AMRIT FIRST, AS NO1 IS C'N AS JAAT, THIRKAN, CHOORA CHAMAAR but as ppl 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aman Singh Posted July 24, 2003 Report Share Posted July 24, 2003 The thing u are talking about is useless. don't raise this issue for nothing. We all humans are equal. there is no caste comes first or last. Sikhs don't believe in caste system. so don't think about it who was first and who was at last. Just believe only in khalsa. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ideal Singh Posted July 26, 2003 Report Share Posted July 26, 2003 No point in discussing. Sikhs do not believe in Caste System. Everyone is Equal. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darshan kaur Posted July 26, 2003 Report Share Posted July 26, 2003 wot do u mean no point in discussing it???? mayb no point 4 u..but 4 others dere mayb 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 26, 2003 Report Share Posted July 26, 2003 Jats and Rajputs are linked as ethnic groups. Amrit was a way in awakening the old warrior traditions in Panjabi Jat farmers and get these traditions to serve Sikhi What about other Ethnic Groups? If Amrit awakened the old warrior tradition in jatts then what did it do to other ethnic groups? No one has said whether such thing happend or not. So my Question is.. Did at anytime in history, Amrit was given to indviduals in order of their Caste heirachcy. IF it was then that was totaly wrong but i don't know if this happend or not so thats what i would like to know. Also I don't think this topic is not worth discussing because we all agree that Caste has no place in Sikhi and if Caste system did find its way in one of our most sacred and important ceremoney in sikhi then its up to us to find out how it got there and why. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aman Singh Posted July 26, 2003 Report Share Posted July 26, 2003 Dharshan kaur ji... do u believe in caste system. ?? and do u know why we dont' want to discuss this topic, cuz this topic can creat problem among sikhs. So better shut down the topic. Remember, sikhi is caste free religion, if u believe in caste system the u are not sikh. Ask Guru Nanak Dev ji, who established this religion. This is why sikhism was created where all humans kind can live eaually. shame on us that we can't live like that.... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ideal Singh Posted July 27, 2003 Report Share Posted July 27, 2003 Darshan Kaur Ji... Could you be kind enough to tell me, being a Sikh, how does it matters to others Sikhs ? :shock: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 27, 2003 Report Share Posted July 27, 2003 Stick to topic and for moderation part we are here to handle it. As far as they discuss it in civil manners everyone is allowed to ask questions. Aman, use PM feature of this site for personal discussion. Thanks 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ideal Singh Posted July 27, 2003 Report Share Posted July 27, 2003 Yes Sir !! :roll: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ms514 Posted July 27, 2003 Report Share Posted July 27, 2003 Sat Sri Akal: Before we get into the thick of this, can someone please provide a reference to the said question? Or it is a he-said-she-said type of thing? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sukhasingh Posted July 27, 2003 Author Report Share Posted July 27, 2003 After some research I didn't start this thread for caste issues, pretending that caste doesn't exist/not-exist etc. :bling: I'm simply trying to find out more about the missal period and I read "Lions of the Punjab", by Dr Fox an anthropologist from California university, mentions it in his study that jats would be the first to step forwards as they had a lot more to lose in terms of wealth, livelihood to lose than the other branches of society, even in Indian Guerilla War Fare by Arjan Das Malik the author clearly places, Hindu's, Muslims, Sikhs and then Jats in their own category as a race of un-predictable people. In "A Matter of Honour" An account of the Indian army, by Philip Mason he goes on to say that when the Americans went to ransack the Red Indians that "How can we fight people that have been brought up around weaponry/steel etc and have been taught by their ancestors in how to use them†The same was with the Sikhs (predominant occupation of farming) they all had weaponry in the forms of Gandasa(axe), guns, tulwar(swords) were all kept in farming tools in the homes when the British came they collected all the weapons and melted them down, so the point being that weaponry was taught through the families and that is how they survived till today. Back to the question “Is true that in the time of the misal period of Sikh history, Amrit was given to Jat (Farmers first) was there any reasons for this ? or is this just incorrect information. “ I think I’ve answered my self or have I it seems to make sense to me any one else ? :? :sikhiwink2: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nogroup singh Posted July 27, 2003 Report Share Posted July 27, 2003 Just an passage from a book (Sikhs in the Eighteenth Century: Their Struggle for Survival and Supremacy by Surjit Singh Gandhi) "During the period from the death of Guru Gobind Singh upto the last few decades (of the 1700s), there is not even a single example of a caste group asserting itself against another caste groups constituting Sikh society. The utterances and policies of Sikh leadership in the aforesaid period all point to the irrefutable conclusion that everything was decided by the Panth and for the Panth. The contribution of the Rangrettas or so-called low-caste people is as great as that of Jatts or Khastris or anyone else. If Kapur Singh and Jassa Singh were given the honor of becoming the leaders of the Sikhs, it was because they were true Khalsa committed to the Khalsa ideals. Had the caste-spirit existed in some substantial measure, it would have been exploited by the Mohammedan Government as well as by Ahmad Shah Abdali and his clever Wazir Shah Khan. "Then certain factors operated in such a way that caste-spirit began to manifest itself...The vetern Sikhs disciplined by Guru Gobind Singh himself had been martyred and their descendants forced to remain in exile with that result the congregation began to drift back to the old customs and beliefs. Those who came from the low castes began to be distinguished from those who came from the so-called high castes. The Sikhs could keep away caste-system only from the Misls whose membership was open to all and whose patronage was shared equally by all...The Sardars at the head of different Misls began to act as sovereigns. Now came the question of selection or appointment of their councillors and officials. They were also stalked with ambition of becoming all-powerful and absolutely independent of one another. That being the state of their minds, there arose mutual squabble among them. As a consequence, every Sardar began to resort to unfair means to have this end. "Accordingly, they appealed to the regional or tribal sentiments. The Sikh mission, having gone weak and slack, could not arrest this trend with the result that caste considerations received strength...When the Sardars began to look more towards their selfish gain, the caste consideration among the Jats also began to emerge on the scene side by side with the Sikh spirit. Since the majority of the Misl Sardars and their followers happened to be Jats, the power and prestige which the Misls acquired, where shared by them with the result that they began to take pride in their caste. "According to Ethne K Marenco, the emergence of caste and the caste considerations were clearly observed by the British observers of the late 18th century. The following excerpt from William Franklin's book Military Memoirs of Mr. George Thomas is an eloquent testimony to the veracity of the aforesaid thesis: "The Sikhs allow foreigners of every description to join their standard, to sit in their company and to share their bread but excepting in the instance of the Jats, they will not consent to inter-marriges, nor will they eat or drink from the hands of an alien except he be a Brahmin and for this caste they will profess the highest veneration." "The mind of the Sikhs instead of making the degree of Sikhism the basis for social status began to work along the age-long grooves of the caste system. The emergence of castes and caste considerations among Sikhs was certainly an act of black-sliding and contrary to the social structure as perceived by the Sikh Gurus and embodied in their teachings. It is really a pity that the Sikh society of the 18th century could not realize the ideal of evolving into a coalesced single-class society."- 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sukhasingh Posted July 27, 2003 Author Report Share Posted July 27, 2003 I have that book yet to read it :bravo: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ideal Singh Posted July 28, 2003 Report Share Posted July 28, 2003 Well... Now here is something to read about !! :bravo: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randip singh Posted July 28, 2003 Report Share Posted July 28, 2003 Is true that in the time of the misal period of Sikh history, Amrit was given to Jat (Farmers first) was there any reasons for this ? or is this just incorrect information. :roll: No a anti-caste posts please, just want to know why No it is not true...........I have been studying Sikhi now for 20 years and have never come across such absurditiy............. Ethnically the Jat is the same as any race in the Punjab..............geneological tests will confirm that.................I think you guys are rellying on the rantings of 19th Century Historians too much....................... 8) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randip singh Posted July 28, 2003 Report Share Posted July 28, 2003 I would further like to add a link to the first five Sikhs: http://www.searchsikhism.com/martyrs/5beloved.htm I do not believe however Amrit was taken in that order..........the followers of Nanak iniatlly were the poor and low caste's like Bhai Lalo (a carpenter), Bala (a peasant/Jat) etc.....................I strongly believe that the poorer people like the Jat, Washerman etc would have come forward before the Khatri for Amrit...........................in anycase, there is still some debate about the above 5 beloved ones in the link......as to whether they were the first............................. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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