Why not refute sites and claims instead of slandering?

[Guest]

I'm starting this thread for intelligent discussion. This thread is to refute Sanatan websites instead of slandering them. Truth always wins at the end so show us the truth.

Here is what it will cover.

Sanatan Sikh Shastar Vidiya: www.shastarvidiya.org

Sanatan Sikhi: www.sarbloh.info

Coming soon: www.nihang.com

Note: Narsingha is not willing to participate in this discussion so feel free to post your questions as they will be anwsering most of them on their website.

[Narsingha]

"This thread is to refute Sanatan websites instead of slandering them."

- truthsingh

Please Note....refute the WEBSITES...not the webmaster :roll:

[truesingh]

Lately on this site everyone is talking bout nihangs so i did my research. not a pro yet but ok nihangs are the true warriors but now i feel guilty.

For wearing a chola b/c my history isnt of a nihang. Should we be wearing cholays if we are not nihangs?

The gatka i wanted to learn. Are we allowed to learn it if were not nihangs?

Even the amrit we take is now invalid.

On the there websites they criticise everything that SIkhi is today that im wondering if i am a sikh. sooooooo confused. somebody help me out here.

Fateh

[darshan kaur]

nihangs drank cannabis...

[Narsingha]

"For wearing a chola b/c my history isnt of a nihang. Should we be wearing cholays if we are not nihangs?"

- truesingh

We are working on a section to explain the Nihang baana, so be patient.

"The gatka i wanted to learn. Are we allowed to learn it if were not nihangs?"

- truesingh

Have a look at the shastar Vidiya website for the answer, its there.

"Even the amrit we take is now invalid. "

- truesingh

Well. if the Amrit Sanchaar was kept as it was in the past as it is today within the Nihang Dals, then this wouldnt be an issue.

"On the there websites they criticise everything that SIkhi is today that im wondering if i am a sikh."

-truesingh

I think you over exaggerate this point. We are not "critising" but revealing the truth (via quotes/historical references etc.). If people become victims of this truth, then that is inevitable.

"nihangs drank cannabis...and plus..dere scaaary"

- darshan kaur

The cannabis issue will be dealt in greater depth soon. And Nihangs are designed to be intimidating.

[Super Singhni]

Vaheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa Vaheguroo Jee Kee Fateh

Im looking forward to the detail which will be discussed in this thread. I, myself am a true believer in Nihang Maryada. It's always so great to share our beliefs and learn interactively. Somehow it's easier to understand things.

AKAAAAAAAL!!!!!

[Guest]

I gotta a quick question from my nihang brothers..

You know four types of sikhs- Udahasis, Nirmallas, Seva-Panthis & Nihang-Khalsa.

I know udhasis doesnt need amrit because they follow baba sri hand maharaj and sggs, they are still part of Sikhism

What about Nirmallas???

Would Damdami Takshal, Rara Sahib takshal started by guroo sahiban himself fall under this umbrella???

And What about seeva-panthis??

Would Kar-Seva sector would fall under seeva-panthis??

Also is amrit-pan is needed for nirmallas and seva-panthis?????

Thanks in advance

[Guest BikramjitSingh]

Narsingha

I have two questions for you regarding the nihang websites

1. Can you confirm that you are the creator of one or more of the nihang websites ?

2. On the website at http://www.sarbloh.info/htmls/nanak.html

Guru Nanak is referred to as Akali Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj. Can you provide sources written and oral as to why Guru Nanak should be referred to as Akali ?.

GurFateh

Bikramjit

[nogroup singh]

‘Udhasi Panth is from the time of Guru Nanak it was started by Baba Siri Chand Ji. It is a ancient Panth. In it also the [Adi] Guru Granth was preached. They set up Akharas [religious gatherings] and alongside Adi Granth they gave knowledge of Ayurved [Traditional Indian medicine]. They moved like an army through the villages and towns. They visited the Kumbh [ie. the Kumbh mela, a hindu religious festival occuring every 12 years] at Hardwar on elephants and horses. This I do know about Udhasis the old ones use to preach Guru Granth with Ayurved. These Udhasis are an old Panth of Guru Nanak. They are exempt from the Khalsa initiation. From the beginning they did not get initiated into the Khalsa they adopted Udhasi way of life [non-attachment]. Baba Sri Chand had adopted Udasi life too. If they [baba Sri Chand’s Udhasis] had been initiated into the Sikh fold they would have been successors to the Gurus. However, he [baba Sri Chand] kept his Panth separate.’

(Baba Uday Singh, transcript of a recording, 01-03-2001)

source: http://www.sarbloh.info/htmls/sikh_udhasi.html

My feedback is below:

Baba Sri Chand advocated a life of a recluse. This is in contradiction with the Sikh philosophy and world view. One can and should follow Baba Sri Chand's example of sewa/service but not his path of asceticism.

Baba Sri Chand was shown respect for who he was. He was not passed the Guruship because his life style was not that of a Sikh - as desired by the Gurus.

Sanatan sikhs website has the below information:

‘What throne of a kingdom did Baba Sri Chand occupy you tell me? Or, did Guru Nanak have such a throne so as he had to have a successor? Were they kings of some state? Guru Nanak was no king of some kingdom. He occupied the throne of a God’s devotee of devotion. Thus Guru Maharaj Baba Sri Chand Ji made his throne of devotion to God separate. In which there is none attachment and renunciation of every type, as is also found in Guru Nanak as well. Father and son appreciated each other's way of life was different, so they each preached their ways separately. The difference that was that Baba Sri Chand became preacher of Udhasis because one was a house holder [Guru Nanak] and one unattached [baba Sri Chand].’

(Baba Gobind Das, transcript of a recording, 16-02-2001)

How do we validate above information?

- Below are the quotes of Adi Guru Granth sahib for Asceticism

1. Of what avail to him are meditation, penances, fasts and worship, In whose mind dwelleth not the Lord.

(Kabir ji, Gauri Raga)

2. I meditate and practise austerity, And discipline my body and live at a holy place, And give charity and do good deeds, But without the True Lord, Of what avail are all these?

(Guru I, Sri Raga)

3. Repetition of mantras, austerities, set way of living,And other deeds and actions, Leave us destitute even before out journey ends; You shall not get even half a copper for your fasts, And special programme of life. These things, O brother, will not help; For, the requirements of that path are different.

(Guru V, Gauri Raga)

4. I do not keep the fast, as kept by Hindus, Nor that observed by Muslims in Ramzan. I serve Him and Him alone, Who is my ultimate Refuge.

(Guru V, Bhairo Raga)

5. By abiding in silence and taking meals on the palms of hands and not on plate, And wandering naked through woods, And going about bathing at all the pilgrim places and sacred rivers, Yea, even wandering throughout the world, The sense of duality goes not, But ever grows in the heart. One may dwell at holy places as much as one wishes, Even if one chooses to be sawn alive there, Themind defiled by sin is cleansed not thus, However one may try. One may gift away one's wife laden with gold, One may give away in charity, horses, elephants, land and grain, But one cannot find Lord's gate that way,

(Guru V, Sorath Raga)

6. By reading the holy books, By controlling breath and cleansing the inner system by Yogic exercises, One cannot get rid of the five evils; On the other hand one gets self-conceited more and more. One may worship and make flower offerings to the gods, And may prostrate like a log before them, And perform the six karmas as mentioned in the Shastras, But the fetters of egoism loosen not, Rather, become even more tight, And one attains not God even this wise.

(Guru V, Sorath Raga)

7. One may practice Yoga, like a Sidha, And may be able to practice all the eighty-four postures, One may achieve longevity, But shall be born again and again and meet not God.

(Guru V, Sorath Raga )

8. O, ignorant man, torture not your body as if in a furnance, Feed not the fire with your bones,There is nothing wrong; Why hang yourself upside down? Look within yourself for the Lord, And you will attain peace.

(Guru I, Shlokas)

9. He who abstains from eating bread, Deprives himself of God-given blessing, And being led astry suffers much discomfort. He who wears no clothes, remains day and night in tribulations. By practicing silence man stupefies himself; How can he be awakened from th stupor except by the Guru? He walks bare-footed and suffers as he deserves.

(Guru I, Asa Raga)

10. Some wander about hungry and naked, And invite death by practicing rigorous austerities; They know not the value of life.

(Guru I, Maru Raga)

11. He eats filth and puts ashes on his head, The blind fool only loses his self-respect; He spends his days in wilderness, And at graveyards and rematoriums, The foolish man does not know that he will have to regret it afterwards, Only that man finds peace, who meets the Guru, And enshrines the Nam of God in his heart.

(Guru I Asa Raga)

12. Some go about visiting the places of pilgrimage, And eat not bread, believing it a good religious act; Some expose themselves to blazing fire, And torture their bodies thus. But they can get no salvation this way. How could they? They who do not understand the Guru;s wisdom, Wander in wilderness, Being ego-centric and with no control on self, They dwell not on God's Nam. They practice falsehood and waste away their lives, And this wise fall into the noose of death.

(Guru I, Maru Raga)

13. Some go to the jungle and sit in silence; Some overcome chill and frost and suffer cold water: Some be smear their bodies with ashes and do not wash the dirt; Some keep matted hair and appear harsh and frightful; They all put their family to disgrace.l

Some wander day and night naked and do not sleep;; Some burn the parts of their body i fire and disfigure themselves; The body is like ashes without the Nam of the Lord; What do they say while weeping? those who serve the true Guru get respect in the presence of the Lord.

(Guru I, Malhar Raga)

14. He walks bare-footed, And reaps the fruit of his actions, He eats dirty food and throws ashes on his head.The blind fool has lost his honour; He lives in desers and cremation grounds, The blind does not know the reality and afterwards repents.

(Guru I, Asa Raga)

15. How can I with hungry stomach devote myself to Thee? Take away Thy rosary.

(Kabirji, Sorath Raga)

16. Shall we go to bathe at the pilgrim places?No, Nam is the only sacred place of pilgrimage.

(Guru I, Dhansri Raga)

17. I would bathe at the sacred places,If by doing so I could please Him;But what use is the Bathing, If it pleases Him not that way. How can mere bathing help?

(Guru I, Japuji)

18. You will not get a place there for all your bathing,And wandering in different places.All these are useless,They cannot satisfy the conditions of that world.

(Guru V, Gauri Raga)

19. I shall not go for Haj to Mecca, Nor worship at the Hindu places,I shall serve only Him and none else.

(Guru V, Bhairo Raga)

Source: http://allaboutsikhs.com/quotations/asceticism.htm

What's your feedback on this Narsingha?

Thanks!

[sukhasingh]

:yo: Kool post let's see what comes out of this :party:

[Narsingha]

With regards to the Baba Sri Chand Ji Maharaj and Udhasis, there is a website coming soon that will reveal more of their world.

:wink:

(so be patient...and yes, ur question will be addressed there in a great deal of depth..by Udhasis themselves)

In addition, Mahant Gobind Das's information is based upon his extensive study of Udhasi texts of Baba Sri Chand's life and Udhasi traditions. In addition, he is a respected individual amongst the Udhasis themselves in Hardwar, and represents the Udhasi Sampardhah at many levels within India. As such his opinion is credible. Also, the section on Udhasis is designed to give THEIR point of view, whether one agrees with it or not is an individual's choice.

You stated:

"Baba Sri Chand advocated a life of a recluse. This is in contradiction with the Sikh philosophy and world view. One can and should follow Baba Sri Chand's example of sewa/service but not his path of asceticism.

Baba Sri Chand was shown respect for who he was. He was not passed the Guruship because his life style was not that of a Sikh - as desired by the Gurus."

Could you please reference your source for this information. We have referenced all our sources fully on the websites, we ask everyone else to do the same.

[Guest BikramjitSingh]

Narsingha

Any chance of answering my question ?

Or do you also want me to wait for another website coming soon ?

So that's two.. Khalistan and Udasis wait for the website..

GurFateh

Bikramjit

[Guest]

Also Narsingha can you please answer my dumb question as well??? I m really curious about above the question i posted

[Narsingha]

Bikramjit Singh, Nihang Niddar Singh Ji and myself are currently in a process of writing a lekh that will explain the usage of terms such as "Akali" to refer to the gurus and their wider connotations (+ the usual scriptual/historical quotes and references). So, pls be patient.

N30...

"What about Nirmallas??? "

The Nirmala section will be updated soon, so, your answer will be there. However, for the moment, I can say that the Nirmala Panchayat does have a system of initiation similar to that of the Khalsa (but this too has gone under change over time).

"Would Damdami Takshal, Rara Sahib takshal started by guroo sahiban himself fall under this umbrella???"

www.sarbloh.info will be updated soon to reveal the histories of a huge variety of Sikh samparday that have existed in the past, and also exist in the present. They will cover the history of "Damdami Taksal" and "Rara Sahib" too.

Incidentally, if you visit: http://www.sikhcybermuseum.org/People/SundarSinghSant.htm you may note that the teachers of Sundar Singh Bhindrawaley, the FOUNDER of DamDami Taksal were "two Udasi scholars, Pandit Javala Das and Pandit Bhagat Ram". He also "learnt Sanskrit from a Brahman at Dharmkot". We will be expanding on this on www.sarbloh.info.

"Would Kar-Seva sector would fall under seeva-panthis?? "

Traditionally, the Seva Panthis/Addan Shahis assisted with matters of Seva, but, so too did the Udhasi Sampardah to a large extent (esp when Nihang Khalsa was under threat from enemy forces).

"Also is amrit-pan is needed for nirmallas and seva-panthis????? "

Today, some Nirmala-based institutions and some Seva Panthis/Addhan Shahis have adopted Amrit as a form of initiation. Possibly to appeal to mainstream Sikhs. However, traditionally this was not always the case. These are largely pacifist orders. If you visit the section on Seva Panthis, you will see that the 5 ks, etc, was not a large stipultion amongst these groups in the past. Indeed the paintings of Bhai Jagta Ji, etc show their dress to be largely non-Khalsa. Today, many groups within the Nirmalas and Seva Panthis have been influenced by SGPC-fied Sikhism, so elements have creapt in which did not exist before.

perhaps others can add to this

[Guest BikramjitSingh]

Narsingha

I don't need 'war and peace' just a simple answer as to why you refer to Guru Nanak as 'Akali', plus a few checkable references. By your comment that you and Nidder Singh and doing some work on the website, can I assume that you are the webmaster/ joint webmaster of the Nihang websites ?

GurFateh

Bikramjit

[sukhasingh]

To understand these websites I feel as though we need to read into 19c movements and problems that the sikhs faced during this time

http://www.sikhcybermuseum.org/history.htm has comprehensive list of what happened 1800 onwards, but does not delve into before that time /the politcs of who done what/was it right/wrong for the panth as alot of the time it dig's out truths which hurt the general sikh masses. . But nevertheless people should find out for themselves not just take these sites as the whole truth but dig into what they are saying is true :roll:

In the past year I have spent near £2000+ on building a library and collecting various old items/text etc that paint the picture as to how we have come to where we are today and I suggest others do to preserve our great heirtage something that I see being done by the above mentioned sites :bow:

:sikhiwink2:

[Narsingha]

Bikramjit, assume what you wish. It doesnt really matter who's behind the websites does it? It is the information there that is the subject of this thread, not the webmaster (please read the opening posts of this thread). You may be comforted to know that the webmaster is neither Hindu or Muslim, but an apnah banda..

sukhasingh, as will, and is being made evident on the websites is that modern sikh scholars who are biased towards mainstream Sikhism have castrated Sikh historical texts of the past to appeal to modern Sikh dogma.

Some scholars/historians (who we wont mention here as yet) have even propagated pure lies, simply to negate any aspect that does not fit into the picture of what mainstream Sikhs consider to be "sikhi". By translating and highlighting the original Sikh historical texts such as Prachin Panth Prakhash, Gur Pratap Suraj Granth, Gurblias Shemi, Gurbilas Dasmi, Parchian Sevadas etc. in their entirity, we will cause headaches for mainstream Sikhs.

The aim of the websites is to reveal the damage that has occured to Sikhi over the past 300 years, and how Sikh historical texts, etc, have been misinterpreted, twisted, and even re-written to remove aspects of Sikhi that once existed. In doing so, its inevitable we will make enemies, but that is the product of revealing the truth.

We want a thinking Panth, not a Panth of sheep....

[Guest BikramjitSingh]

Narsingha

It was a simple question about whether you are a webmaster or not.. I didn't know it was a state secret..

You've made a lot of claims about Sikh scholars telling lies but there's nothing backing it up..just your views. Read Truth Singh's main post.. it's all about references and not opinions

PS still waiting for your answer to the other 'Akali' question. Just an idea perhaps you shouldn't be putting info on the website until you have the references to back it up.

GurFateh

Bikramjit

[Narsingha]

Bikramjit, considering the scope of Sanatan Sikhi, it would be impossible to put the entire Sanatan Sikh ideology on a website. Besides, Sanatan Sikhi is more than a website...and is practiced to be understood. The aim of the websites is to reveal what there is within Sanatan Sikhi and promote thinkers who will go and persue knowledge rather than get all their answers on a website.

"You've made a lot of claims about Sikh scholars telling lies but there's nothing backing it up..just your views. Read Truth Singh's main post.. it's all about references and not opinions "

-Bikramjit

Well, Bikramjit, unlike yourself, I can read...and my statement was not made without due consideration.

If you visit www.shastarvidiya.org and point your browser to the section on Chatka, we have already given one example of the above with regards to Bhai Randhir Singh and his incorrect claims about the term "Chatka". Please dont expect me to re-write the websites here for your benefit.

There are more examples to follow with regards to the accusations against modern Sikh scholars/historians (trust me on this), and not just from the Nihang angle either (+ references).

[nogroup singh]

In addition, Mahant Gobind Das's information is based upon his extensive study of Udhasi texts of Baba Sri Chand's life and Udhasi traditions. In addition, he is a respected individual amongst the Udhasis themselves in Hardwar, and represents the Udhasi Sampardhah at many levels within India. As such his opinion is credible. Also, the section on Udhasis is designed to give THEIR point of view, whether one agrees with it or not is an individual's choice.

I see lack of references here. I would take it more seriously if you will provide references as well. Mahant gobind Das's information is based upon his extensive study of Udhasi texts of Baba Sri Chand's life and Udhasi traditions. Now here is the lack of references because you forgot mention those texts.

You stated:

"Baba Sri Chand advocated a life of a recluse. This is in contradiction with the Sikh philosophy and world view. One can and should follow Baba Sri Chand's example of sewa/service but not his path of asceticism.

Baba Sri Chand was shown respect for who he was. He was not passed the Guruship because his life style was not that of a Sikh - as desired by the Gurus."

Could you please reference your source for this information. We have referenced all our sources fully on the websites, we ask everyone else to do the same.

References are from Adi Guru Granth Sahib the ones I have posted above. All the quotes are not in favour of asceticism and Udasi preach asceticism if im not mistaken. Now it can't be true that Gurus will go against their own teachings and views by making Sri Chand's asceticism a part of Sikhism.

I have stated clearly that "One can and should follow Baba Sri Chand's example of sewa/service but not his path of asceticism." and my references are coming from Adi Guru Granth sahib. Please, check all the quotes I have posted above.

Also, the section on Udhasis is designed to give THEIR point of view, whether one agrees with it or not is an individual's choice.

Ok! I say America is India now its up to individual's choice if they agree with me or not. So, am I going to solve anything by saying something like that? Please be reasonable and back up whatever you have on your websites. Also, my whole intention is to learn.

Thanks!

[Guest]

Narsingha,

Bikramjit Singh asked you question which is very reasonable. As you know that there is no bypassing in this discussion and I hope you will try to anwser him as soon as possible.

Here is his question:

Guru Nanak is referred to as Akali Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj. Can you provide sources written and oral as to why Guru Nanak should be referred to as Akali ?.

[Guest BikramjitSingh]

TruthSingh

Thanks for pointing out the terms of the discussion for Narsingha. This was the reason I wanted to clarify whether Narsingha is the webmaster of the site because if he is the webmaster then one would assume that he would be able to answer any of the questions we may have about the website.

He has not answered whether he is the webmaster along with the question about referring ro Guru Nanak as 'Akali'

Narsingha

I am checking the translation from Bhai Randhir Singh that is on the website and which you claim shows that he told 'lies'.

You referred to scholars, plural are there any others you can tell me about who in you view are telling lies about Sikhi, references such as the one for Bhai Randhir Singh would be appreciated.

GurFateh

Bikramjit

[Narsingha]

As I said, ur question will be answered on the website, sow ait for it.

If you think this is unfair...sue me.

[Narsingha]

Please remember, the only reason I am inviting discussion here is because I wish to do so, I may equally choose not to respond completely.

Use this chance wisely

www.sarbloh.info and www.shastarvidiya will have their own forums in the future, so please dont expect that I am obliged to answer you or anyone else here.

:wink:

[Guest BikramjitSingh]

Please remember, the only reason I am inviting discussion here is because I wish to do so, I may equally choose not to respond completely.

Use this chance wisely

www.sarbloh.info and www.shastarvidiya will have their own forums in the future, so please dont expect that I am obliged to answer you or anyone else here.

:wink:

Narsingha

I am surprised that you couldn't even answer this simple question about the site. Normally it take a few more questions before you use the 'wait for the website' card.

TruthSingh

Pretty much ends any discussion on this thread. Over to you for action as per the rules. I don't see why Narsingha should be able to advertise the site but bypass any questions put to him.

GurFateh

Bikramjit