The Future Of Gurdwaras In Pakistan

[HSD1]

I wont take anything personally but I want you to think about what I say. There is no malice, I am trying to cover all the corners here.

You mention Gen. Zia but bare in mind he only moved Sikhs to Punjab as he needed Sikhs to control Gurdwaras and take them off SGPC hands. It was all political and with the blessing of the Pak govt. So how are you planning on getting the Pak govt on side?

They may want to move but can they really just upsticks and move? How does this work in Pakistan? Will they have to reregister in Punjab? Will they be willing to live in Gurdwaras till accomodation can be found locally? If you know a lot about Pakistan then tell us more.

If there is enough public feeling about restoring these places, the Badals and SGPC will come round. PSGPC are as much pets of the Pak govt as the SGPC are of the Badals. That's why they hate them, they feel they were screwed over. Ultimately neither are doing Sikhi or Sikhs any favours.

I know that most Gurdwaras are lying in ruins, my family came from West Punjab before 1947. I know that rebuilding them properly is going to be no easy task either. Look at the photos above, some are literally ruins. A slapdash job is just going to reflect the bad way we've looked after Gurdwaras in other places. Read my post on the first page to see what I mean about restoration.

I dont think it's worth comparing Hindu mobs to mujahideen or other muslims. Completely different. Security has to be taken seriously. We cant just say it'll be alright if we do this. Do you think it's worth writing to the Pak embassy or local MPs to twist the arms of the Pak govt to provide proper security to these places? Otherwise it will be like Afghanistan all over again. Dont forget that NATO will leave in a few months time and fighting will probably spread over to Pakistan.

[chatanga1]

Chatanga, how serious are you about this?

Bhaji I am very serious about this. I simply cannot sit by and watch the disappearance of my Guru's House. If you want we can talk over skype about anything we can do to further this cause.

Chatanga, I think our first step is making a document with the name of ALL gurdwaras, locations and districts. This would give an overview of which district has the most Gurdwaras (in my opinion in Pak Punjab it would be Lahore, Kasur and Gujranwala - leaving Nankana Sahib aside). Im saying this for a reason.

I have some plans etc too but I stopped time ago due to lack of trustable and serious 'sevadaars'.

I understand Bhaji, with all the things going on in our Panth at the moment, people are very reluctant to get involved in something as complicated as this.

In 1970s Gen Zia made NWFP Sikhs move down to Punjab (not many, but there were no Sikhs left in Nankana even) and reopened Gurdwaras. If it could be done then, why not now? Besides I have told you that I am in contact with Pak Sikhs who have confirmed me thus, of course not every Sikh will be ready for it, but be sure that most FATA NWFP Sikhs do want to move and North Sindh Sikhs are just to poor, poorest of them all (Bagri converts). Sticking won't be an issue as several families can be deplaced.

I wont take anything personally but I want you to think about what I say. There is no malice, I am trying to cover all the corners here.

You mention Gen. Zia but bare in mind he only moved Sikhs to Punjab as he needed Sikhs to control Gurdwaras and take them off SGPC hands. It was all political and with the blessing of the Pak govt. So how are you planning on getting the Pak govt on side?

They may want to move but can they really just upsticks and move? How does this work in Pakistan? Will they have to reregister in Punjab? Will they be willing to live in Gurdwaras till accomodation can be found locally? If you know a lot about Pakistan then tell us more.

If there is enough public feeling about restoring these places, the Badals and SGPC will come round. PSGPC are as much pets of the Pak govt as the SGPC are of the Badals. That's why they hate them, they feel they were screwed over. Ultimately neither are doing Sikhi or Sikhs any favours.

Re Zia and the Sikhs.

In 1947, after the creation of Pakistan it was agreed that a 30 member Sikh team could stay in Nankana Sahib and look after the GUrdwaras. After the Indo-PAk was of 1965, to get back at the Sikhs and India, this number was reduced to 16, and after the 1971 war, this number was whittled down to 2. All the other Sikhs had to relocate to India.

After when the relations began to normalise, the Sgpc approached zia with the request to allow Sikh caretakers back into Pakistan. He refused, but gave an assurance that Pakistani Sikhs would be allowed to take care of the Gurdwaras instead with Pak Givt support.

This was way before PGPC came into being.

Im not sure if you know, but the PGPC came into being after SIkhs from the western world and some indian sikhs were angry at the way the SGPC were taking all the gohlak money back to india, whilst pakistan gurdwaras needed severe financial aid. There was a actual fight one year, where the Sikhs tried to prevent the SGPC from taking the money, but in the end to preserve the peace and the outlook of Sikhs amongst the Pakistanis, the Sikhs backed down.

Instead they made preparations for the PGPC to come into being, although it was only to have a limited lifespan. I think it was around 6 years or something, whilst this gave the body time to repair the Gurdawaras in Pakistan. The Pak Govt has given millions to repair the main 5 or 6 gurdwaras that yatrees go to every year. The rest remain as they are.

Sham Singh, the 1st head of the PGPC was actually brought up as a muslim. He was born a Sikh, but was left behind in 1947, and bought up as a muslim, although when he was later told about this, he came back to the Sikh path. The SGPC tried to portay him as an ISI operative.

As far as I know the PGPC is no longer operating or the custodians of the gurdwaras. Or if it is, not on the scale it once was.

[HSD1]

Oh really, I thought the PGPC were still in charge? So why cant it be reformed if it did so well back then? They could organise this and channel funds, ask for specific help and bring people in from other parts of Pakistan. The old members cant all have died off. Is really just about lack of funds?

[chatanga1]

from:

http://topnews.in/sham-singh-head-pakistan-s-gurdwara-parbandhak-committee-2249190

New Delhi, Jan 01 : Sardar Sham Singh has been appointed as the new head of the Pakistan Sikh Gurdwara Parbhandhak Committee (PSGPC) after
his candidature was unanimously accepted on Friday by members of the Sikh body. He has been named president of PSGPC after a gap of nearly one-and-half years by the Pakistan Evacuee trust property board (PETPB). Chairman of the PETPB Asif Hashmi proposed Singh’s name to head the Sikh body.

Talking to ANI, Sidique Khurram, a senior official of PETPB, said that the meeting was held in cordial atmosphere, which was chaired by Hashmi. Taru Singh and Sahib Singh have been appointed as vice president of the committee.

Khurram said that Taru Singh would look after Sikh affairs in Sindh and Baluchistan where as Sahib Singh would be in charge of religious affairs in Punjab and North West Frontier Province.

To take care of the Sikh Shrines situated in Pakistan and for the well being of the Sikh community living there, the Pakistan Government
in 1999 constituted the PSGPC under the chairman of Javed Nasir, former ISI chief and appointed Sham Singh its first president.

Earlier, the Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee (SGPC), the premier body of the Sikhs, opposed the formation of the PSGPC, but later
on recognized the Pakistani body. Sham Singh served as the president of the committee for more than five years.

Mastan Singh and Bishen Singh also served as the president of the committee. Sikh Diaspora incliding SGPC, Amrican Gurdwara Parbandhak
Committee (AGPC), Delhi Sikh Gurdwara Managemnet Committee (DSGMC) and Sikh council Switzerland welcomed the election of Sham Singh.

Speaking from Lahore Sham Singh said that his priority would be to expedite the works for the up keep and development of the Gurdwaras
situated in Pakistan.

He said that he would ensure that Akal Takhat’s code of conduct is restored in Gurdwara of Pakistan, and added that more accommodations
will be constructed for Sikh pilgrims coming to the country whose number has increased in recent times.

Khurram claimed that PETPB is determined to provide all the logistic help including funds for the development of the Sikh shrines situated in
Pakistan.

During last one year, the PETPB was in news for allegedly selling land belonging to the Sikh shrines. This would be another task before
the newly elected President to protect the property of the Sikh shrines in Pakistan.

Welcoming appointment of Sham Singh as presidnet of the PSGPC, president of the SGPC Avtar Singh hails Sham Singh for good works done
during his previous tenure. He said the SGPC id ready to provide whatever help Sham Singh needs for the development of the Pakistani Sikh
shrines.

DSGMC president Parmjit Singh Sarna said that Sham Singh is the senior most member of the committee and knows how to get the work done
in Pakistan.

Pritpal Singh, convenor of AGPC, welcomed the election Sham Singh, and said that AGPC would provide all help for the restoration of the
Sikh code of conduct in the Gurdwaras in Pakistan.

There are more than 172 historical Sikh Shrines in Pakistan but Pakistan allows Indian Sikh pilgrims to visit couple of them. (ANI)

i have posted this as it gives us an idea of the bodies that have been set to look after the gurdwaras there.

first there was the PETPB, who's job it was to look after the GUrdwara's and the huge endowments of lands they had. We have seen where a lot of that land has gone. Then again there is also the fact that the PGPC had full support from Sarna, probably because he wants to keep Badal group out as much as poss.

[chatanga1]

Oh really, I thought the PGPC were still in charge? So why cant it be reformed if it did so well back then? They could organise this and channel funds, ask for specific help and bring people in from other parts of Pakistan. The old members cant all have died off. Is really just about lack of funds?

I see from looking at some news articles on the net, that the PGPC is still running. But what power it actually wields is debatable. The original remit of the body was to run the gurdwaras and have the control of the gohlak for 5 years. But that doesnt necessarily mean that it was to be disbanded after completion of its original term.

[HSD1]

So where do we go from here? I guess someone's going to have to contact them and see what's going on.

Do you think it's worth contacting UK Sikh bodies as they werent mentioned in the article? A lot of people dont know about this. That article is from 3 years ago, it seems not a lot has been done for restoration. I hope the PGPC arent just after tourist cash.

[chatanga1]

another interesting article about the history of Sikh Yatra to Pakistan:

http://sikhspectrum.com/2004/02/preserving-our-heritage-in-pakistan/

Preserving our heritage in Pakistan

The first meeting between the Prime Ministers of India and Pakistan on Evacuee property of both countries took place in 1950. The decisions
were not made public under the Nehru - Liakat Ali Act. To the surprise of Sikhs the property of Nankana Sahib, Siri Darbar Sahib (Kartarpur)
and other holy Sikh shrines in Pakistan were declared as lawaris (lit. orphan) property.

Written by Bhupinder Singh Holland

After the painful separation of 1947, the Sikh nation added into its daily prayer, “O Lord grant us the free access (darshan), service (seva) , and maintenance (sambhal) of the Gurdwaras in Pakistan from which the panth (Sikh nation) has been separated”. Sadely enough the ardas (prayes) still remains to be fulfilled.

Sikhs have an unflinching faith in the efficacy of prayer. On the face of it, the addition is clearly understood and as such does not call for ramificattion. However, the deeper meaning of this addition is directly related to the theory of natural place and natural rights which is followed by natural law and natural justice. No one would deny the dispersion of these historic religious places and their rightful custodians, as it is today, is not natural. Until the status quo is changed, they would be deemed as being administered contrary to the natural laws of custody.

Sacred shrines, perticularly those associated with the birth and heritage of different religions, such as Islam, Christianity, Hinduism, Judaism, Buddhism, to mention a few, are managed by the faithful and their sanctity is maintained in accordance with the respective religious traditions. The Jewish State of Israel permits the shrines of Bethlehem and Mosque of Al Aqsa to be manged by Christians and Muslims. Likewise, the shrines of Roza Shrief in Sirhand and Jama Masjid in Delhi are managed by the Muslim clergy in accordance with Islamic liturgical tradition. The Islamic Republic of Pakistan upholds this glorious priniciple as commanded by the Holy Quran by allowing Christian churches bto be run by the various denominations.

The establishment of Pakistan Gurdwara Parbandhak Committe (PGPC), for ensuring the upkeep and santity of Gurdwaras in Pakistan and other facilities for the Sikh yatree (visitors), via a note from Prime Minister’s office dated 06-02-1999 and later the declaration of 11 April 1999 at Dehra Sahib Lahore, is a good begining toward allowing Sikhs the maintenance of all Gurdwaras in Pakistan.

On 14 August 1947, while speaking on Radio Pakistan, the founder of Pakistan Quide Azim Sahib Mohmad Ali Jinah said to his countrymen,

“You are free now. You can pray in a Mandir, Gurdwara or Mosque, where how and when you want. [The] Government will not interfere in your religious affairs.”

It is true that according to the teachings of Islam and the provisions of the constitution of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, minorities have been given complete freedom in the practice of their religion, the control, and management and maintenance of its places of worship. For Sikhs many hurdles still exist before the community can have freedom to manage Gurdwaras in Pakistan.

The first meeting between the Prime Ministers of India and Pakistan on Evacuee property of both countries took place in 1950. The decisions were not made public under the Nehru – Liakat Ali Act. The Home Minister of India Pandit Govind Walab Pant and Major General Sikandar Mirza from Pakistan held a meeting and decided to make an Evacuee Trust Property Board for both sides. To the surprise of Sikhs the property of Nankana
Sahib, Siri Darbar Sahib (Kartarpur) and other holy Sikh shrines in Pakistan were declared as lawaris (lit. orphan) property. Perhaps people
behind this unspeakable tragedy could not bear the thought of Sikhs and Muslims having a cordial relationship.This decision was against the 1947 speech by the Quide Azim, Sahib Mohmad Ali Jinah, and goes against the spirit of the founding father of Pakistan.

Preserving Sikh art and architecture:

The link between the people of Pakistan and the Sikhs is such that it is difficult to conceive of any permanent friction between the two communities. These links are four-fold: historical, geo-political, ideological and cultural. They are all fundamental and in no way superficial or perishable.

Historically, the greater Punjab, the region between Jamuna and Jamrud which is the green patch between middle India and inner Asia, has been the meeting ground of ideas originating from many different regions such as Indus valley, Gangetic plain, Kashmir, Afganistan, Iran, Graeco-Baetrian and Turkish middle Asia. These influences have given birth to a prophetic religion, Sikhism, the only revealed religion originating outside the Hebrew-Judaic traditions of Christianity and Islam. Besides, these have fashioned a permanent national personality on the basis of which the Sikh Commonwealth of the Lahore Durbar dreamt of and tried to create and insert into history a new nation, the “Punjabi Nation”.

The geo-political linkage between the two peoples of this fertile region are too obvious to require a further definition. There is ample confirmation in world history to suggest that geography is more powerful than politics, and more often than not politics is forced to the painful realization that it must accomodate to such truth.

The ideological links between these two peoples may be discerned in the ideology and insights out of which the prophetic religion of Sikhism has arisen. A close study of the scriptural contents of Guru Granth Sahib and the holy Quran makes it clear that out of the three distinct elements : 1) dissertations on the nature of God and man’s relation to Him; 2) social organization and ethics; and 3) the Judaic mythology, the first method has been deemed in the texts of the Guru Granth Sahib, as worthy of serious attention and has been assented to in substance. Sikhism has never held Islam as a polarity to itself and postulates auniversal religious consiousness.

A common language between the major portion of the people of Pakistan and the Sikhs, and above all, the ethnic links between the two, are factors of such high significance and dynamism that they are capable of transcending all contingent suspicions and elements of division.

In the Sikh doctrine, the janamasthan Nankana Sahib, is invested with a holy status unparalleled in the spirtual history of the great world religions. Bethlehem of Christianity, Jerusalem of Judaism, Mecca of Islam, and Varanasi of Hinduism are holy cities. All are primary centers of worship to these great religions. The birth place of Guru Nanak, janamasthan, in Sikh religious perception, is a sacred terrestrial focus, manifested and not created by the birth of Guru Nanak at its geo-physical point.

This academic point has been made to highlight the intensity and urgency of the current Sikh desire and demand for restoration of
unrestricted access to and effective association of the Sikhs with the maintenance and management of janamasthan, and their consequential
demand for proper management to preserve the sanctity of all historical Sikh Gurdwaras located in Pakistan.

Despite limited diplomatic relations between India and Pakistan, theman who tried to fulfil the prayer of the Sikh nation succeeded in
getting a visa to visit Pakistan from Sahibzada Yakub Khan, the ambassador of Pakistan in the U.S in 1975. Since then and uptil now,
Sardar Ganga Singh Dhillon, a prominent Sikh leader, is working on this project and has left no stone untouched. On January 3, 1979 he met a man
of deep wisdom and great foresight.

President Zia ul Haq understood the relationship of human soul and its religious heritage. He established the pattern that allowed the
worldwide Sikh community to visit our holy shrines and introducedsweeping changes to preserve the sanctity of Gurdwaras in Pakistan.
There were some who failed to see the benefit of his policy.

President Haq realized that religious truth is at the heart of human existence and that Pakistan could only gain by lifting restritions on
Sikhs who desired to visit Gurdwaras in Pakistan. This decision has helped in creating better understanding between Sikhs and Muslims.
Chaudhary Hazoor Ilahee, father of Chaudhary Sujat Hussain, the leader of Muslim League Quide Azim, was the champion of this achievment.

A seven member international Sikh delegation was received with warm welcome in Pakistan for the first time by the Nankana Sahib Foundation with Sardar Ganga Singh Dhillon as president on October 7, 1979. Sardar Ganga Singh Dhillon has pursued the case of Gurdwaras in Pakistan with
all the governments and met each President and Prime Minister of Pakistan for this matter until Pakistan Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee
was formed in April 1999.

An application was submitted by Nankana Sahib Foundation to Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif on 12 January 1997 to form PGPC, but it was
rejected on 1 August 1997. It was stated that such a committee would be against the constitution of Pakistan with a suggestion that Sikhs
settled in Nankana Sahib should be displaced to other parts of Pakistan for security reasons. Again on the request of Nawaz Sharif, a second
application was submitted and it was approved on 6 Febuary 1999. Lt.General, Javed Nasir, who was the president of Evacuee Trust Property
Board, played an important role.

Sardar Ganga Singh Dhillon has met the current President GeneralParvez Musharaf three times. I was also present at the meeting in
Islamabad on August 17, 2000. A thirteen member Sikh delegation from U.S.A, Canada, England, Holland, Germany, and Malaysia was invited under
the leadership of Sardar Ganga Singh Dhillon to visit and discuss the issue of Sikh Gurdwaras, and the delegation also took part in the
celebrations of the 54th Independance day of Pakistan for the first time in history.

Keeping in view the representations of Sikh Yatrees and International Sikh Organisation especially Nankana Sahib Foundation, for ensuring the
upkeep, management and sanctity of the Gurdwaras as well as providing facilities to the Sikh Yatrees from all over the world, the Government
of Pakistan has constituted a Committee, namely, the Pakistan Gurdwaras Parbandhic Committee ( PGPC ).

These proposals have not been implemented fully yet but the work is in progress. The Sikh nation is working in getting involved in remedial
measures for the maintenance, preservation of Gurdwaras, and ensuring their sanctity according to Sikh traditions. A lot needs to be
accomplished and we hope that with the help of the people of Pakistan this wish of the Sikhs will get fulfilled.

These propositions, in principle, and their sincere implementation without undue delay is likely to be a major historical development in
South Asia. It will greatly add to the glory and image of Pakistan in the eyes of the world. It will foster friendship between the Sikh nation
and the people of Pakistan through the goodwill of PGPC.

Guru Nanak Model School, Nankana Sahib, Pakistan.

This time, I had the opportunity of visiting this school, where Gurmukhi is being taught. The school headmaster Mr. Azgar Bhatti cordially took us to his office. The school has five Sikh and seven Muslim male teachers and seven Muslim lady teachers. At Nankana Sahib, there are eight Government schools and fourteen private schools among which Guru Nanak Model School occupies top position.

About 142 Sikh students study here and the number of Muslim students is 410, of which 120 are poor and enjoy full fee concession. This school
was set up in April 1999.

While Sikh students recited Sukhmani Sahib, Japji Sahib and Rehras Sahib, Muslim students recited verses from holy Qu’ran.

[chatanga1]

So where do we go from here? I guess someone's going to have to contact them and see what's going on.

Do you think it's worth contacting UK Sikh bodies as they werent mentioned in the article? A lot of people dont know about this. That article is from 3 years ago, it seems not a lot has been done for restoration. I hope the PGPC arent just after tourist cash.

PGPC was created to stop the sgpc getting their hands on that tourist cash. But that is going to be the next step, to see if we can find out what remit the PGPC actually has.

[dalsingh101]

Underlying a lot of this is the thorny issue of our relationship to the Muslim world.

It needs to change in my opinion.

In Pak in particular we have to play it safe. No antagonism because we simply can't back sh*t up. And we know that they will get 'burnin' and a lootin' at the slightest provocation.

The Sindhi angle is an important one. These people need to be 'mainstreamed' without pushing modern day, Jat Singh Sabha vibes down their throats.

We should maybe push for a quid-pro-quo (I think that's what it's called?) relationship. We renovate and preserve mosques on our side and they reciprocate? We play it low key and friendly out their - i.e. no nagar kirtans etc.

Outside of this, if we ever get into manufacture as a community, the Islamic world forms half the world, we should foster good relationships as they could be big consumers.

In all of this we have to watch out for the ground level reality that if any of our daughters/sisters are a tad bit on the 'available side' these guys will not blink to 'plug' them.

Edited March 16, 2013 by dalsingh101

[BhagatSingh]

The Sindhi angle is an important one. These people need to be 'mainstreamed' without pushing modern day, Jat Singh Sabha vibes down their throats.

Lol. How do you propose we accomplish it?

[SikhKhoj]

1. chatanga, yes we will discuss about it in more detail soon.

2. Members on this board have a really bad image of Pak, as if you are persecuted on every road, as if this that no nagar kirtans but do you know that one of the recently elected members of Imran Khans party is a sikh (south Punjab)? It is not bad as the media claims it is. Surely the minorities are abused because of the discriminatory laws. For example even Muslim women are kidnapped but there are more non Muslim women kidnapped because that becomes legal once they make them convert, most of the times it is done out of lust not because of lust (while Islam may be a factor too). Same way you can youtube for video of Pakistani Hindus celebrating holi openly in NWFP and Punjab so it is not that bad guys.

3. I have heard several times about renovating mosques in E Punjab and then getting ours returned in W Punjab. Sounds good but your average Pakistani doesn't really care about the mosques in E punjab, Pak might be existing upon the basis of Islam but its far from it. We could however talk with the govt of more 'tourism income' and the potential (I had read figures of rs 500 million potential in Sikh Tourism for Pak) and also with the archeology department etc.

4. I have an idea which I will illustrate with an example. Lets take an example of Dist Narowal. I know of 3-4 historical Gurdwaras there, the most famous being Kartarpur Sahib. These Gurdwaras are located within 10-15 km of each other, which is a positive thing. I would suggest somehow, buying land around the main Gurdwara (here Kartarpur) and helping Sikhs settle down there (I think a few families already live but its a very low number) and then take care of their economical needs. This way they will leave in a 'bigger group' (better for parchar amongst them, bit more security) and they can also go daily to the other 2-3 Gurdwaras. This scenario can be used in other areas aswell, because we could settle Sikhs in one area of Sialkot for example (which is less populated or anything, cheap lands) and then they could take care of Gurdwaras all over Sialkot (now it depends on size of district too but just an example). I prefer this over keeping two three families per Gurdwara, it will be difficult for the Sikh children being alone in Muslim environment as well.

5. I knew of a Sindhi Sikh who was up for parchar, I might still have his details (he lives in South Sindh, and he wanted to convert his other fellow Hindus to Sikhi but had financial limitations, he had some plans too) - so if anyones interested?

6. I think we should allow jathebandia, sarkar and start doing something individually.

[jaikaara]

wha

Lol. How do you propose we accomplish it?

The Sindhi Sikhs have Udasi influence , i live among them here in India. It is the talibani mentality and puritan thought processes which is pushing them out . Panthic committees coming in trucks to pick of Swaroops of Guru Granth sahib alleging beadbi...threatening them.

They are being made to disown Guru Granth Sahib and being pushed over to worship anywhere else ..the people who worship bani with their hearts ..many who have memorized Sukhmani Sahib ..they are treated as if they are a liability.

Can things not just be discussed over the table rather than showing force ? and force shown to whom ? to devotees who dont fit into your defination ? i dare these committees to show force in pakistan...

[dalsingh101]

I met a few Sindhis at the Gurdwara. They have proper shardha, and have memorised paats, even though they can't read Gurmukhi. Some do not see any difference between Sikhs and Hindus in Sindh. I don't have no problems with this myself, but I'm sure plenty of hogis wont be able to resist the urge to huff and puff about this like they do.

I recall reading a point about 'Unity NOT Uniformity' on another forum, we need to practice that now more than ever.

If anything, it was the British colonial experience that made apnay go overboard with issue of so-called 'orthodoxy' and wrap Sikhi up with a post modern and neo-protestant blanket.

Truth is that we were diverse before and lived with it. We need to go back to that, and stamp out the hogi herd mentality that starts foaming at the mouth at any opportunity.

To Bhagat. How we begin? For a start all nonhogis (and progressive ones) can make a conscious pledge not to support the exclusivist mentality and condemn it when they witness it. Numerically we have enough combined numbers to influence things.

[jaikaara]

I met a few Sindhis at the Gurdwara. They have proper shardha, and have memorised paats, even though they can't read Gurmukhi. Some do not see any difference between Sikhs and Hindus in Sindh. I don't have no problems with this myself, but I'm sure plenty of hogis wont be able to resist the urge to huff and puff about this like they do.

I recall reading a point about 'Unity NOT Uniformity' on another forum, we need to practice that now more than ever.

If anything, it was the British colonial experience that made apnay go overboard with issue of so-called 'orthodoxy' and wrap Sikhi up with a post modern and neo-protestant blanket.

Truth is that we were diverse before and lived with it. We need to go back to that, and stamp out the hogi herd mentality that starts foaming at the mouth at any opportunity.

To Bhagat. How we begin? For a start all nonhogis (and progressive ones) can make a conscious pledge not to support the exclusivist mentality and condemn it when they witness it. Numerically we have enough combined numbers to influence things.

very true bro i agree ...can u imagine i seen their mone lads doing prachaar in their own style ..a few weeks back i met them at someone's shop.. they were debating with a turbaned lad of their age ..explaining him what it means to be a sikh ! i was like ..woww ! this is called real prachaar !

[chatanga1]

Underlying a lot of this is the thorny issue of our relationship to the Muslim world.

It needs to change in my opinion.

In Pak in particular we have to play it safe. No antagonism because we simply can't back sh*t up. And we know that they will get 'burnin' and a lootin' at the slightest provocation.

The Sindhi angle is an important one. These people need to be 'mainstreamed' without pushing modern day, Jat Singh Sabha vibes down their throats.

We should maybe push for a quid-pro-quo (I think that's what it's called?) relationship. We renovate and preserve mosques on our side and they reciprocate? We play it low key and friendly out their - i.e. no nagar kirtans etc.

Outside of this, if we ever get into manufacture as a community, the Islamic world forms half the world, we should foster good relationships as they could be big consumers.

In all of this we have to watch out for the ground level reality that if any of our daughters/sisters are a tad bit on the 'available side' these guys will not blink to 'plug' them.

Dal, we do have a thorny relationship with the muslims world outside of india, in india, its seems ok. But in Pakistan, they may hate the Sikhs (especially after 47, or the indo-pak wars) but they do admire and accept that the Sikh people are brave and therefore worthy of some sort of respect

We have already played or paid, a quid, with the restoration of "Guru Ki Maseet" in Gurdaspur I think. The Pakistanis have spent a lot of money of a handful of gurdwaras in Pakistan, but i am not sure if the money they used was their own, it may have come from the land income of these very gurdwaras, amd also donations from western sikhs.

I remember ages ago, when my cousin got to number one in the music charts in the UK, he gave a sizeable donation for Nankana Sahib renovations.

Re the Jat issue, I woiuld be so bold as to say that there may be a handful of Jats there if any. Most Sikhs there are from the Khatri class. Also it may come as a shock to you, but there are no Jat SIngh Sabha or any such vibes. The Singh Sabhas abhored caste, and supported the lower castes right. The Gurdwaras in Pakistan were all part of the Singh Sabha movement as well. In fact as you will know, the saka of Sri Nankana Sahib spurred on the Singh Sabha no end.

.

.

3. I have heard several times about renovating mosques in E Punjab and then getting ours returned in W Punjab. Sounds good but your average Pakistani doesn't really care about the mosques in E punjab, Pak might be existing upon the basis of Islam but its far from it. We could however talk with the govt of more 'tourism income' and the potential (I had read figures of rs 500 million potential in Sikh Tourism for Pak) and also with the archeology department etc.

4. I have an idea which I will illustrate with an example. Lets take an example of Dist Narowal. I know of 3-4 historical Gurdwaras there, the most famous being Kartarpur Sahib. These Gurdwaras are located within 10-15 km of each other, which is a positive thing. I would suggest somehow, buying land around the main Gurdwara (here Kartarpur) and helping Sikhs settle down there (I think a few families already live but its a very low number) and then take care of their economical needs. This way they will leave in a 'bigger group' (better for parchar amongst them, bit more security) and they can also go daily to the other 2-3 Gurdwaras. This scenario can be used in other areas aswell, because we could settle Sikhs in one area of Sialkot for example (which is less populated or anything, cheap lands) and then they could take care of Gurdwaras all over Sialkot (now it depends on size of district too but just an example). I prefer this over keeping two three families per Gurdwara, it will be difficult for the Sikh children being alone in Muslim environment as well.

5. I knew of a Sindhi Sikh who was up for parchar, I might still have his details (he lives in South Sindh, and he wanted to convert his other fellow Hindus to Sikhi but had financial limitations, he had some plans too) - so if anyones interested?

6. I think we should allow jathebandia, sarkar and start doing something individually.

Bhaji, the Pakistan Govt welcome Sikh tourists, but the only snag in this, is their relationship with the indian govt. Issues with the indian govt usually end up affecting Sikh-Pak relations, which of course the indian govt abhors.

Bhaji the gurdwaras in Pakistan had so much land attached to them, but this has been whittled away, either by the establishment, or local villagers. Im not sure that buying land would be of benefit in this case. Most, if not all of the Pakistani Sikhs wouldnt know how to plough a field. We could on the other hand help set up up in retail enterprise, which is where most of them are engaged at the moment. Or in the medical field for any promising students etc.

If this Sindhi Sikh is still up for parchar, then sure lets get it going.

i dont understand what point you are making on number 6.

wha

The Sindhi Sikhs have Udasi influence , i live among them here in India. It is the talibani mentality and puritan thought processes which is pushing them out . Panthic committees coming in trucks to pick of Swaroops of Guru Granth sahib alleging beadbi...threatening them.

They are being made to disown Guru Granth Sahib and being pushed over to worship anywhere else ..the people who worship bani with their hearts ..many who have memorized Sukhmani Sahib ..they are treated as if they are a liability.

Can things not just be discussed over the table rather than showing force ? and force shown to whom ? to devotees who dont fit into your defination ? i dare these committees to show force in pakistan...

Why is why we need the Sampardayes doing more preaching in these areas, like Taksal or nirmalas.

[jaikaara]

How will the Sampraday function ? they are being scorned at ..and i dont say its not their fault entirely ..however my opinion is lets all work..in different directions ..and lets stop playing the blame game..let singh sabha do its bit ..lt them do theirs ...

[chatanga1]

they will function as they always have. Dont get me wrong, im not saying this should be limited to Samprdayes, but it would be beneficial for them to be in th vanguard, as they accept that there are some differences in maryada's and such between different groups of Sikhs, and if the main recipricants of this movement are udasi sikhs, then Singh Sabha ideology may not be the best foot forward.

Thats not to say that the Singh Sabha cant put a foot forward at all. You are right, in that we ALL need to do our bit. Singh Sabha, or lets read SGPC, can have a tremendous input in this, ie finances, project management, media relations.

[chatanga1]

Have any of you seen the facebook page about the Udasi dera in Sindh, some SIkhs are going mad over it. An udasi guy is reading Guru GranthSahib with nanga head, and then he puts a swastika on the inside back cover.

So if you were to tackle this, you would have to tread on egg-shells(veggie ones of course) to prevent scaring them away, or leading them to totally distance themselves from us.

[SikhKhoj]

Saw that pic and instantly thought of this thread. The head not covered is not so bad but I however did mind the Swastika.

Chatanga, you say lets get on with the Sindh Singh, but do you have any plan? 'budget'? anything?

We need one person who can travel to pak, because TBH Pakis (regardles of religion) are as corrupt as Indians if not more. Very greedy (yes stereotyped but still you get what I mean).

Secondly, we could talk to WAQF or PSGPC or archeological departments about the lands and something would certainly be done.

Thirdly, I don't ask them to be farmers but the Sindhi Singh had a good idea: we establish a school (dont know exact costs but it was reasonable). It will be a Sikh school where non Sikh students will have to pay a fees. He says it happens of ten in Christian schools etc and the income could be used for further bhalai of our Qaum in Pak. What say?

Then if we are serious about this, we should talk by pm or something I guess.

[chatanga1]

Sikh Khoj Bhaji,

Im not going to bulls-hit you, I am unemployed and live (at the moment) on a very meagre budget with my family.

My thought of this Sindhi Sikh is basically to see what he feels he needs to start his parchar. Basically where, when and what. When we have his idea, then we can solicit for finances either on a small individual scale, or get some UK Sikh bodies to initiate contact with the PGPC to facilitate his needs.

Re a school, Im afraid that, that will be a mid-term aim. what we want to do, if we wish to achieve Gurmat PArchar amongst the Sindhi Sikhs, to to use what resources they already have over their ie Dharamsalas and such. Then during Guru Nanaks Birthday celebrations that can be used as a further possibility for parchar. but to go straight ahead with the notion of a school, will be a backward step, as it would require more than the services of a unemployed, skill-less person like myself, and a handful of people on a forum. Lets start to think about standing, then we can stand and after that walk and run.

PGPC involvement is a must. The control of the Gurdwaras is in their hands I beleive. We not only have to involve them, but basically allow them to take charge, unless you would be prepared to spend a year at least in Pakistan.

Bhaji I take it you have been to Pakistan yes?

Edited March 19, 2013 by chatanga1

[SikhKhoj]

I'll reply to you on pm brother.

[jaikaara]

Veers before you get into financing ..first take a discovery tour to see what is being done .. don't jump head right into it ...i would like to talk personally with both of you on this ...there is a lot more coming ..can both of you pm me your email ids ? can we talk on skype on the weekend ?

[chatanga1]

The PGPC are no longer an active functioning body, and as i have heard the head of the comiittee Sham Singh has been accused of selling land belonging to the Gurdwara.

This seems to be leading to a mire of a totally bleak situation, and future for the Gurdwaras.

I have a horrible feeling that we are not really going to be able to do much.

[chatanga1]

a heart breaking song by Manmohan Waris on the loss of Sri Nankana Sahib.

[ipledgeblue]

How much sewa is currently provided to gurdwaras local to the border eg Lahore? Can sewadaars get visas to at least go look after these gurdwaras if not further, by travelling by bus and train? Can organisations such as SGPC and others not provide this. If yatras can be done, then can this not be done? I think a special organisation or committee (tongue in cheek) should be set up which sends sewadaars specially for dekhpaal, looking after the gurdwaras.