das Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 (edited) Can anyone find the hidden meaning behind the following lines: Son is born before Father. Father and Son have same Mother. Father and Son have same Wife. Find who is "Father", "Son", "Mother", and "Wife". Edited February 21, 2014 by das 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singh123456777 Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 Yes I understand 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonny101 Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 Yes I understand Sanu vi Dasan di kirpa karo 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singh123456777 Posted February 21, 2014 Report Share Posted February 21, 2014 Sanu vi Dasan di kirpa karoWaheguru is the mother(father)when we are born and for our whole life and waheguru is our bride(groom) when we die.So the father and son have Same mother and father and son have same wife.It took me 3 mins to figure out. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singh123456777 Posted February 21, 2014 Report Share Posted February 21, 2014 Hopefully I'm correct lol 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
das Posted February 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2014 (edited) now, three is another twist that I originally forgot to mention in the original post, come on everyone give it a try. Son is born before Father Edited February 21, 2014 by das 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mekhane'ch Jannat Posted February 21, 2014 Report Share Posted February 21, 2014 Mother and Wife are both Prakriti (Maya) or the Prima Materia. From the Mother the Son is born, who is abstract Intelligence, he plans creation. Prakriti then Generates the father Brahma. From this Plan, the Father who is Brahma, creates the World with his wife Maya. This is Pravritti Marg. After the Pravritti creation The Son takes Maya to be his bride and makes Nivritti Marg. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
das Posted February 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2014 Perfectly explained by Mekhane'ch Jannat Jiva is Son; Brahma is Father; Mother and Wife is Maya. When I first read it, I didn't have a clue. It's only after I read the details, I was able to understand. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucky Posted February 24, 2014 Report Share Posted February 24, 2014 (edited) Are you referring to this shabad ? ang 1194 ਜੋਇ ਖਸਮੁ ਹੈ ਜਾਇਆ ॥ Jo▫e kẖasam hai jā▫i▫ā. The wife gives birth to her husband. ਪੂਤਿ ਬਾਪੁ ਖੇਲਾਇਆ ॥ Pūṯ bāp kẖelā▫i▫ā. The son leads his father in play. ਬਿਨੁ ਸ੍ਰਵਣਾ ਖੀਰੁ ਪਿਲਾਇਆ ॥੧॥ Bin sarvaṇā kẖīr pilā▫i▫ā. ||1|| Without breasts, the mother nurses her baby. ||1|| ਦੇਖਹੁ ਲੋਗਾ ਕਲਿ ਕੋ ਭਾਉ ॥ Ḏekẖhu logā kal ko bẖā▫o. Behold, people! This is how it is in the Dark Age of Kali Yuga. ਸੁਤਿ ਮੁਕਲਾਈ ਅਪਨੀ ਮਾਉ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ Suṯ muklā▫ī apnī mā▫o. ||1|| rahā▫o. The son marries his mother. ||1||Pause|| ਪਗਾ ਬਿਨੁ ਹੁਰੀਆ ਮਾਰਤਾ ॥ Pagā bin hurī▫ā mārṯā. Without feet, the mortal jumps. ਬਦਨੈ ਬਿਨੁ ਖਿਰ ਖਿਰ ਹਾਸਤਾ ॥ Baḏnai bin kẖir kẖir hāsṯā. Without a mouth, he bursts into laughter. ਨਿਦ੍ਰਾ ਬਿਨੁ ਨਰੁ ਪੈ ਸੋਵੈ ॥ Niḏrā bin nar pai sovai. Without feeling sleepy, he lays down and sleeps. ਬਿਨੁ ਬਾਸਨ ਖੀਰੁ ਬਿਲੋਵੈ ॥੨॥ Bin bāsan kẖīr bilovai. ||2|| Without a churn, the milk is churned. ||2|| ਬਿਨੁ ਅਸਥਨ ਗਊ ਲਵੇਰੀ ॥ Bin asthan ga▫ū laverī. Without udders, the cow gives milk. ਪੈਡੇ ਬਿਨੁ ਬਾਟ ਘਨੇਰੀ ॥ Paide bin bāt gẖanerī. Without travelling, a long journey is made. ਬਿਨੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਬਾਟ ਨ ਪਾਈ ॥ Bin saṯgur bāt na pā▫ī. Without the True Guru, the path is not found. ਕਹੁ ਕਬੀਰ ਸਮਝਾਈ ॥੩॥੩॥ Kaho Kabīr samjẖā▫ī. ||3||3|| say Kabeer, see this, and understand. ||3||3|| Edited February 24, 2014 by Lucky 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
das Posted February 25, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 No, I wasn't referring to the above mentioned shabad, I was reading Bijak of Kabir that day and I think there was couple of places where it was mentioned. In Guru Granth Sahib Ji, I could find the following only: ਪੂਤਿ ਪਿਤਾ ਇਕੁ ਜਾਇਆ ॥ ਬਿਨੁ ਠਾਹਰ ਨਗਰੁ ਬਸਾਇਆ ॥੨॥ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucky Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 A similarity there..............after all, it is Kabirji ! I think that in both cases the metaphors are consistent, but slightly different to what you guys mentioned above ? I make it,- Mother/WIfe = MAYA Father= soul/jeeva (EGO part) and Son = MIND I did do veechar of this shabad some where, with a little more detail and depth. I'm not sure where this was, but I think I can still remember most of it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BhagatSingh Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 (edited) Das that's not how it goes lol. Father and Mother give birth to Son. The Son forgets the father. The Son takes his Mother as his Wife. Father is Hari (commonly referred to as Waheguru). Mother is Maya. The Son is Mun (the mind) and being ignorant of what's going on, he forgets his father and takes the mother as his wife. The Son is immature. He hasn't grown up yet. He considers Maya as his own, ie he is attached to Her. Maya doesn't belong to her, She belongs to his father, Sri Hari. Lucky here's the proper translation to that shabad. This relates to the above. This is very deep shabad and requires much contemplation to understand. The english translator completely botched it. This shabad is the real bujharat. ਜੋਇ ਖਸਮੁ ਹੈ ਜਾਇਆ ॥ Wife (Maya) and Husband (Hari) give birth (to the Son/Mun). ਪੂਤਿ ਬਾਪੁ ਖੇਲਾਇਆ ॥ The Father (Hari) gets the Son (Mun/Mind) to play. Father (Hari) is the Son's consciousness. Consciousness allows the Son to experience things, to think, and so on. This is the play that father plays with us. ਬਿਨੁ ਸ੍ਰਵਣਾ ਖੀਰੁ ਪਿਲਾਇਆ ॥੧॥ The Mother (Maya) gets the Son (Mun/Mind) to drink milk* without having any breasts. Maya gives us the pleasures of life, this is the milk that the mother feeds us. She has no breasts. *The original word is kheer but in this context it means milk because the word that comes after it, is "drink" not "eat". ਦੇਖਹੁ ਲੋਗਾ ਕਲਿ ਕੋ ਭਾਉ ॥ O people, watch this state of Kaliyug. ਸੁਤਿ ਮੁਕਲਾਈ ਅਪਨੀ ਮਾਉ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ The Son (Mun/Mind) thinks the Mother (Maya) belongs to him. What does the mind do in Kaliyug? The answers follow: ਪਗਾ ਬਿਨੁ ਹੁਰੀਆ ਮਾਰਤਾ ॥ The mind is without feet but jumps a lot. It fantasizes, it plans, it looks towards the future. ਬਦਨੈ ਬਿਨੁ ਖਿਰ ਖਿਰ ਹਾਸਤਾ ॥ The mind is without a mouth but laughs a lot. It indulges in pleasures through the five senses. ਨਿਦ੍ਰਾ ਬਿਨੁ ਨਰੁ ਪੈ ਸੋਵੈ ॥ The mind sleeps without sleeping. The mind is ignorant of Hari and is thus asleep. ਬਿਨੁ ਬਾਸਨ ਖੀਰੁ ਬਿਲੋਵੈ ॥੨॥ The mind stirs Kheer/milk without utensils. The mind through the (false/impermanent) body seeks pleasure. ਬਿਨੁ ਅਸਥਨ ਗਊ ਲਵੇਰੀ ॥ The cow lactates without udders. Maya (cow) gives pleasures (milk) without udders. ਪੈਡੇ ਬਿਨੁ ਬਾਟ ਘਨੇਰੀ ॥ The mind thinks the path is foggy, but in reality there is no path. The mind is the image of Hari but it thinks it dies and takes rebirth (the path). ਬਿਨੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਬਾਟ ਨ ਪਾਈ ॥ ਕਹੁ ਕਬੀਰ ਸਮਝਾਈ ॥੩॥੩॥ Without a guru, the path (Bhagti) can not found. This is what Kabir is trying to explain. Following this shabad, in the next shabad, Bhagat Kabir gives an example of a great bhagat, Bhagat Prehlaad, who through his Guru, Guru Narad, learned of the path of Bhagti. ਪ੍ਰਹਲਾਦ ਪਠਾਏ ਪੜਨ ਸਾਲ ॥ ਸੰਗਿ ਸਖਾ ਬਹੁ ਲੀਏ ਬਾਲ ॥ Bhagat Prehlaad went to school and took many of his friends with him. The teacher wrote a lesson on wordly affairs on the board. ਮੋ ਕਉ ਕਹਾ ਪੜ੍ਹ੍ਹਾਵਸਿ ਆਲ ਜਾਲ ॥ ਮੇਰੀ ਪਟੀਆ ਲਿਖਿ ਦੇਹੁ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗਪਾਲ ॥੧॥ He asked his teacher, "Why do you teach me about worldly affairs? Write 'Sri Gopal' on my sheet instead." ਨਹੀ ਛੋਡਉ ਰੇ ਬਾਬਾ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ॥ ਮੇਰੋ ਅਉਰ ਪੜ੍ਹ੍ਹਨ ਸਿਉ ਨਹੀ ਕਾਮੁ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ "Baba, I will not leave the name of Ram, your teachings about wordly affairs are of no use to me."ਸੰਡੈ ਮਰਕੈ ਕਹਿਓ ਜਾਇ ॥ ਪ੍ਰਹਲਾਦ ਬੁਲਾਏ ਬੇਗਿ ਧਾਇ ॥ Sanday and Amarkay reported him (to his Father, King Hiranyakashap/Harnaakash). After hearing this, Prahlaad was called back from school. Now they are in the presence of the king in the courtroom, and Prehlaad's teacher tries to reason with him. ਤੂ ਰਾਮ ਕਹਨ ਕੀ ਛੋਡੁ ਬਾਨਿ ॥ ਤੁਝੁ ਤੁਰਤੁ ਛਡਾਊ ਮੇਰੋ ਕਹਿਓ ਮਾਨਿ ॥੨॥ His teacher said "Give up the habit of talking about Ram, and I will save you from the punishment (death by drowing or throwing off a cliff) of your father, the King Harnaakash (who hated any talk of Ram in his kingdom). Listen to me and obey my command." ਮੋ ਕਉ ਕਹਾ ਸਤਾਵਹੁ ਬਾਰ ਬਾਰ ॥ ਪ੍ਰਭਿ ਜਲ ਥਲ ਗਿਰਿ ਕੀਏ ਪਹਾਰ ॥ Bhagat Prehlaad replied, "Why do you annoy me, again and again? Prabhu is the creator of water, of plains, of cliffs and of mountains"ਇਕੁ ਰਾਮੁ ਨ ਛੋਡਉ ਗੁਰਹਿ ਗਾਰਿ ॥ ਮੋ ਕਉ ਘਾਲਿ ਜਾਰਿ ਭਾਵੈ ਮਾਰਿ ਡਾਰਿ ॥੩॥ "I won't leave Ram, as it brings dishonour to my Guru (Narad). You can burn me or slay me and throw me awayਕਾਢਿ ਖੜਗੁ ਕੋਪਿਓ ਰਿਸਾਇ ॥ ਤੁਝ ਰਾਖਨਹਾਰੋ ਮੋਹਿ ਬਤਾਇ ॥ Harnaakash pulled out his sword in anger and was raging. "Prehlaad show me who protects you. Where is he? Tell me!" ਪ੍ਰਭ ਥੰਭ ਤੇ ਨਿਕਸੇ ਕੈ ਬਿਸਥਾਰ ॥ ਹਰਨਾਖਸੁ ਛੇਦਿਓ ਨਖ ਬਿਦਾਰ ॥੪॥ Prabhu came out of a pillar, in the courtroom. And He ripped Harnaakash's stomach with his claws and killed him. ਓਇ ਪਰਮ ਪੁਰਖ ਦੇਵਾਧਿ ਦੇਵ ॥ ਭਗਤਿ ਹੇਤਿ ਨਰਸਿੰਘ ਭੇਵ ॥ He is the Supreme Soul, the Deva of Devas, God of Gods. For His bhagat, He took the form of Narsingh, half man half lion. ਕਹਿ ਕਬੀਰ ਕੋ ਲਖੈ ਨ ਪਾਰ ॥ ਪ੍ਰਹਲਾਦ ਉਧਾਰੇ ਅਨਿਕ ਬਾਰ ॥੫॥੪॥ Kabir says "No one can understand His limits. He has saved Prehlaad many times" (Many times meaning first from fire, then from being thrown off a mountain and then in the courtroom. This story is the short version.) Edited February 26, 2014 by BhagatSingh 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucky Posted February 27, 2014 Report Share Posted February 27, 2014 Thats great work Bhagat Looking at your comments made me smile because it was very similar to what I kind of concluded. My vocab is nowhere as good as yours, as i'm still teaching myself. Nevertheless, I had a feeling you would be one of the few that would nail straight away, whereas I would have to read through it numerous times. But there were a few little points that I couldn't grasp where you said the translator messed it up. I'm not too sure, but looking at it both ways doesn't do any harm. Your post/work is in purple and the rest is me showing what I kinda made of it, and how i sorta got there..... ਜੋਇ ਖਸਮੁ ਹੈ ਜਾਇਆ ॥ Wife (Maya) and Husband (Hari) give birth (to the Son/Mun). ਪੂਤਿ ਬਾਪੁ ਖੇਲਾਇਆ ॥ The Father (Hari) gets the Son (Mun/Mind) to play. Father (Hari) is the Son's consciousness. Consciousness allows the Son to experience things, to think, and so on. This is the play that father plays with us. 1)does 'joe' mean wife ? .......i'm not too sure I think 'khasam' is husband/owner and ''jaaeiaa'' is go, taken, or ie. when someone says ''maa da jaaiaa''-son of a mother ! Putting these together...I get..- ''husband is son of wife'' ! 2)But, it is ''put baph khalaya'' -son plays the father....wouldn't it be 'baph puth khalayia'' if it were 'father gets son to play' ?? correct me if and where i'm wrong. Continuing....this is what i came to.. I said that wife/mother =Maya Father=soul/jeeva(Ego) Son= Mind bearing these in mind whilst reading..... ਜੋਇ ਖਸਮੁ ਹੈ ਜਾਇਆ ॥joe khasam hai jaaeiaa ||The wife gives birth to her husband.ਪੂਤਿ ਬਾਪੁ ਖੇਲਾਇਆ ॥pooth baap khaelaaeiaa ||The son leads his father in play.The wife (MAYA) gives birth to the husband (MIND)Such that the product of Maya is the MIND which is the sense of false ego/ haumai and also influenced by the 3 Qualities of MAYA.Remember that it is the MIND that itself enjoys the MAYA(it's mother)I think the 2 tuks above actually go a little further into differentiating the Son as the MIND, and the Father as the Soul,/jeeva (the EGO part) The Son (MIND) leads the father (SOUL) into play. Or let's say....The Mind(Son) gets the SOUL(father) into it's OWN play. But the Father(Soul) is supposed to be the leader and guide for the Son (mind). Then what happens is, that the Mind leads the Soul into it's own temptations (false Ego) ! ਬਿਨੁ ਸ੍ਰਵਣਾ ਖੀਰੁ ਪਿਲਾਇਆ ॥੧॥ The Mother (Maya) gets the Son (Mun/Mind) to drink milk* without having any breasts. Maya gives us the pleasures of life, this is the milk that the mother feeds us. She has no breasts. *The original word is kheer but in this context it means milk because the word that comes after it, is "drink" not "eat". ਬਿਨੁ ਸ੍ਰਵਣਾ ਖੀਰੁ ਪਿਲਾਇਆ ॥੧॥bin sravanaa kheer pilaaeiaa ||1||Without breasts, the mother nurses her baby. ||1|| ***Child drinks milk from mother breasts- FACT. I think here, he is saying that there is some milk/feeding that is not from breasts or not genuine milk. falseness, fake, illusion.....**** The MIND gets nursed by Mother(Maya). The 'without breasts' means irregular/not in order/ false/ not the real thing...etc.. So. the False qualities of maya nurse the false senses and demands of the MIND. The MIND starts 'milking' out the soul and taking the jeev out of jeeva in order to fulfill the false perceptions displayed by MAYA(mother) ਦੇਖਹੁ ਲੋਗਾ ਕਲਿ ਕੋ ਭਾਉ ॥ O people, watch this state of Kaliyug. ਸੁਤਿ ਮੁਕਲਾਈ ਅਪਨੀ ਮਾਉ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ The Son (Mun/Mind) thinks the Mother (Maya) belongs to him. ਦੇਖਹੁ ਲੋਗਾ ਕਲਿ ਕੋ ਭਾਉ ॥dhaekhahu logaa kal ko bhaao ||Behold, people! This is how it is in the Dark Age of Kali Yuga.ਸੁਤਿ ਮੁਕਲਾਈ ਅਪਨੀ ਮਾਉ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥suth mukalaaee apanee maao ||1|| rehaao ||The son marries his mother. ||1||Pause||My impression is that in this age of Kalyug, the MIND(son) marries the MAYA(mother) that gave birth to it in the beginning What exactly is this saying ? The MIND(son) is influenced by the 3 qualities of MAYA(mother). Then the Son-mind gets married to the same Maya-mother. What does the mind do in Kaliyug? The answers follow: ਪਗਾ ਬਿਨੁ ਹੁਰੀਆ ਮਾਰਤਾ ॥ The mind is without feet but jumps a lot. It fantasizes, it plans, it looks towards the future. ਬਦਨੈ ਬਿਨੁ ਖਿਰ ਖਿਰ ਹਾਸਤਾ ॥ The mind is without a mouth but laughs a lot. It indulges in pleasures through the five senses. ਪਗਾ ਬਿਨੁ ਹੁਰੀਆ ਮਾਰਤਾ ॥pagaa bin hureeaa maarathaa ||Without feet, the mortal jumps.ਬਦਨੈ ਬਿਨੁ ਖਿਰ ਖਿਰ ਹਾਸਤਾ ॥badhanai bin khir khir haasathaa ||Without a mouth, he bursts into laughter. These next few tuks confirmed the metaphor for MIND Since- Without Feet the MIND still JUMPS.........Just think how our MINDS jump from thoughts to desires and wants ? yet it doesn't even have any feet like everything else that jumps in this world ! Without a Mouth, the MIND bursts into laughter !......Again, Just think how it finds things so amusing and pleasing.....How often do we laugh at jokes and get amused with sudden pleasures, where we let the impulse take over ? This MIND gets pleased and amused by one pleasure and then tries to run and jump to the next....(like a frog jumping from one stone to the other) ਨਿਦ੍ਰਾ ਬਿਨੁ ਨਰੁ ਪੈ ਸੋਵੈ ॥ The mind sleeps without sleeping. The mind is ignorant of Hari and is thus asleep. ਨਿਦ੍ਰਾ ਬਿਨੁ ਨਰੁ ਪੈ ਸੋਵੈ ॥nidhraa bin nar pai sovai ||Without feeling sleepy, he lays down and sleeps. When we are sleepy, our eyes get tired, our body starts to tell us with physical warning signs. But the MIND doesn't have eyes that get tired or muscles that fatigue and have to relax for recharging.Instead, the MIND sleeps due to being Intoxicated from MAYA and the pleasures it gets.However, we try and feel that we are in control, we are not that attached to maya, we try to convince ourselves that we can be Free from Maya......etc.. BUT all this is Haumai and Ego.The MIND in it's True form without Ego is the Jyot Swaroop, and this is the true self from origin without the influences of maya.Sadly, the MIND has fallen asleep in this illusion of MAYA and masked as well as forgotten the True Self or Jyot swaroop. ਬਿਨੁ ਬਾਸਨ ਖੀਰੁ ਬਿਲੋਵੈ ॥੨॥ The mind stirs Kheer/milk without utensils. The mind through the (false/impermanent) body seeks pleasure. ਬਿਨੁ ਬਾਸਨ ਖੀਰੁ ਬਿਲੋਵੈ ॥੨॥bin baasan kheer bilovai ||2||Without a churn, the milk is churned. ||2|| The Churning of Milk without a churn is the MIND churning the desires and going into Ego. The MIND's wanderings and plans of fortune, wealth, success, retirement funds...ALL MAYA is the churning without the True source. Or, the false wanderings of the MIND and the plans to engage in even more maya. ਬਿਨੁ ਅਸਥਨ ਗਊ ਲਵੇਰੀ ॥ The cow lactates without udders. Maya (cow) gives pleasures (milk) without udders. ਬਿਨੁ ਅਸਥਨ ਗਊ ਲਵੇਰੀ ॥bin asathhan goo lavaeree ||Without udders, the cow gives milk. Again, as in the above... the milk seems to not be coming from true source. MAYA is the cow without udders that feeds the MIND. Significance of cow in this case is....- it gives us the 'Milk' that we were attached to from our mother. Then as adults we kind of get attached /linked to this same cows milk. Therefore, the Milk the cow gives is NOT the same as the milk from the original mother-MAYA. But still it keeps the MIND attached to it's more deceptive and falser illusion. Such is the play and attachment of our Minds into deceptive lures and attractions of more MAYA. ਪੈਡੇ ਬਿਨੁ ਬਾਟ ਘਨੇਰੀ ॥ The mind thinks the path is foggy, but in reality there is no path. The mind is the image of Hari but it thinks it dies and takes rebirth (the path). ਪੈਡੇ ਬਿਨੁ ਬਾਟ ਘਨੇਰੀ ॥paiddae bin baatt ghanaeree ||Without travelling, a long journey is made.ਪੈਡੇ ਬਿਨੁ ਬਾਟ ਘਨੇਰੀ ॥paiddae bin baatt ghanaeree ||Without travelling, a long journey is made. (He mentions bhaat or journey distance) The life journey can be much better if devoted to the Lord and our True source. Because it is not, life seems like a long hard journey that we keep making longer without even getting any nearer our source or Mool. Another way of looking at it,........ - If we just stay in one position without ever making any effort to travel the path, then the path or journey will just keep getting longer and difficult and the distance will continue to get bigger between Us and Waheguru. I am a firm believer that if we take just 1 step towards Waheguru, then he takes 10 steps towards us. But if we don't even attempt to take just 1, then we just keep making this distance even further. ਬਿਨੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਬਾਟ ਨ ਪਾਈ ॥ ਕਹੁ ਕਬੀਰ ਸਮਝਾਈ ॥੩॥੩॥ Without a guru, the path (Bhagti) can not found. This is what Kabir is trying to explain. ਬਿਨੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਬਾਟ ਨ ਪਾਈ ॥bin sathigur baatt n paaee ||Without the True Guru, the path is not found.ਕਹੁ ਕਬੀਰ ਸਮਝਾਈ ॥੩॥੩॥kahu kabeer samajhaaee ||3||3||Says Kabeer, see this, and understand. ||3||3|| Sant Kabir This kind of sums it up-The MIND that is heavily drowned and intoxicated with MAYA, keeps running and jumping in all directions looking for those comforts and pleasures.They come in many forms but the effect is ALWAYS temporary. If the ultimate peace and permanent comfort is missing, then life will always be miserable full of temporary moments. Our soul that contains the true mool conscience is the one that suffers and faces these consequences. However, the GURU guidance can help the MIND from misguiding the Soul into false and temporary directions.I think the 'bin satgur baath na payee' tells us that we should use the Shabad guru and bani as our guidance to keep us straight on the path. After we make this effort ourselves, then his kirpa and grace follows. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
das Posted February 27, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 27, 2014 (edited) BhagatSingh Ji I was not referring to that shabad of Bhagat Kabir Ji in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. From the metaphor/bujarat in the shabad of bhagat Kabir from Guru Granth Sahib Ji, it is clear that Father and Son have same Wife (Son took the mother as his wife); but it does not mention the other 2 things: "Father and Son have same Mother" and "Son is born before Father". To be more specific, I was talking about the Shabad number 9 from Bijak Of Kabir (which is NOT present in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji): santo bole te jag mare; anbole te kaisek bani hai, shabdahi koi na bichare; pahale janm putra ka bhayau, bap janmiya pachhe; bap put ki akai nari, i acharaj koi kachhe; dundur raja tika baithe, vishahar karai khawasi; swan bapura dharni dhakno, billi ghar me dasi; kagadkar karkud age, bail kare patwari; kahahi kabir suno ho santo, bhainse nyaw niberi; O Sants, when I speak, the world beats me. If I hold my peace, what then ? No one considers the word. The son(JIVA) took birth first : the father (KAAL) was born afterwards. Father and son have the same mother (MAYA) : who can solve this wonder. The rat (MIND) is installed as king with royal tilak : the snake (Pride) is his minister at his right hand. The wretched dog (CONSCIOUNESS) is seneschal, the cat (WIsdom) is servant in the palace. The black crow blackened (VEDAS AND OTHER SCRIPTURES) paper before him: the bullock (THOSE WHO INSTRUCT IN CEREMONIAL LAWS) was made Court clerk. Says Kabir, Listen O Sants; the buffalo is set to administer justice. So, as per the metaphor I was reading: Jiva/Soul is Son; Kaal/Mind (Creator) Brahma is Father; Mother and Wife is Maya. e.g In Guru Granth Sahib Ji I could not find specific shabads but the nearest I could find is: ਪੂਤਿ ਪਿਤਾ ਇਕੁ ਜਾਇਆ ॥ ਬਿਨੁ ਠਾਹਰ ਨਗਰੁ ਬਸਾਇਆ ॥੨॥ At last, I'm a child and a child could interpret things which are meant for different meaning. E.g The defination of toy could be different for different persons: * For a Child: Something to play with and also to quarrel with fellow children because they want to possess it. * For an Parent: Something purchased from shop and given to children for playing purposes to make them happy. * For an Sale-man: Something he could sell to parents and/or children and get the money. * For an Toy Factory worker: Something created with plastic and then moulded into desired shape and eventually putting cool colors. * For an Plastic Factory Worker: Just a piece of any of a wide range of synthetic or semi-synthetic organic solids that are moldable. * Supplier of Raw Material For Plastic Factory: Nothing more than the earth/mithi because plastic could be derived from plant based material (reducable to Earth), or animal based material (again reducable to Earth), or petrochemicals (again Earth). So, same shabad could have multiple meanings based upon the level of Consciouness of the person reading it. Edited February 27, 2014 by das 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BhagatSingh Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 (edited) That's awesome guys. I appreciate the detailed responses! Thats great work Bhagat Looking at your comments made me smile because it was very similar to what I kind of concluded. Right on brother. People who are awakened on some level usually see with their eyes what Sant Kabir was talking about with the mind jumping and sleeping. It makes no sense to the common person lol. But there were a few little points that I couldn't grasp where you said the translator messed it up. I'm not too sure, but looking at it both ways doesn't do any harm. Your post/work is in purple and the rest is me showing what I kinda made of it, and how i sorta got there..... ਜੋਇ ਖਸਮੁ ਹੈ ਜਾਇਆ ॥ Wife (Maya) and Husband (Hari) give birth (to the Son/Mun). ਪੂਤਿ ਬਾਪੁ ਖੇਲਾਇਆ ॥ The Father (Hari) gets the Son (Mun/Mind) to play. Father (Hari) is the Son's consciousness. Consciousness allows the Son to experience things, to think, and so on. This is the play that father plays with us. 1)does 'joe' mean wife ? .......i'm not too sure I think 'khasam' is husband/owner and ''jaaeiaa'' is go, taken, or ie. when someone says ''maa da jaaiaa''-son of a mother ! Putting these together...I get..- ''husband is son of wife'' ! 2)But, it is ''put baph khalaya'' -son plays the father....wouldn't it be 'baph puth khalayia'' if it were 'father gets son to play' ?? correct me if and where i'm wrong. Lucky if the wife gives birth to the husband, then the husband is by definition her son, not husband. If she created her son, then who is the father? But it says the father is the son. The son/husband takes his wife as wife but he is her husband/son... I don't think so. For Kabir 'husband' was Shri Hari. He says: ਜੋ ਜਨ ਲੇਹਿ ਖਸਮ ਕਾ ਨਾਉ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਕੈ ਸਦ ਬਲਿਹਾਰੈ ਜਾਉ ॥੧॥ Those who say the name of Husband (Hari), I am a sacrifice to them. We know for a fact that when Kabir talks about khasam in a spiritual context he is only referring to Hari. This a repeated pattern in not only his bani but in guru granth sahib in general. Guru Arjan dev ji says: ਮੋਹਨ ਮਾਧਵ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ੍ਨ ਮੁਰਾਰੇ ॥ ਜਗਦੀਸੁਰ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਅਸੁਰ ਸੰਘਾਰੇ ॥ Mohan, Madhav, Krishan Murare, Jadishwar, Hari Ji, the slayer of demons. The word Madhav is used a lot in Guru Granth sahib. It is composed of two words Ma, meaning mother/Maya, and Dhav meaning Husband/Hari. BhagatSingh Ji I was not referring to that shabad of Bhagat Kabir Ji in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. From the metaphor/bujarat in the shabad of bhagat Kabir from Guru Granth Sahib Ji, it is clear that Father and Son have same Wife (Son took the mother as his wife); but it does not mention the other 2 things: "Father and Son have same Mother" and "Son is born before Father". To be more specific, I was talking about the Shabad number 9 from Bijak Of Kabir (which is NOT present in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji): santo bole te jag mare; anbole te kaisek bani hai, shabdahi koi na bichare; pahale janm putra ka bhayau, bap janmiya pachhe; bap put ki akai nari, i acharaj koi kachhe; dundur raja tika baithe, vishahar karai khawasi; swan bapura dharni dhakno, billi ghar me dasi; kagadkar karkud age, bail kare patwari; kahahi kabir suno ho santo, bhainse nyaw niberi; O Sants, when I speak, the world beats me. If I hold my peace, what then ? No one considers the word. The son(JIVA) took birth first : the father (KAAL) was born afterwards. Father and son have the same mother (MAYA) : who can solve this wonder. The rat (MIND) is installed as king with royal tilak : the snake (Pride) is his minister at his right hand. The wretched dog (CONSCIOUNESS) is seneschal, the cat (WIsdom) is servant in the palace. The black crow blackened (VEDAS AND OTHER SCRIPTURES) paper before him: the bullock (THOSE WHO INSTRUCT IN CEREMONIAL LAWS) was made Court clerk. Says Kabir, Listen O Sants; the buffalo is set to administer justice. Das thanks for taking the time to post the shabad. Now that I see it, it is clear to me where the misunderstanding is coming from. Firstly it does not say "Father and Son have same Mother" anywhere. It says: pahale janm putra ka bhayau, bap janmiya pachhe; First came the son, then came the father. bap put ki akai nari Father and son have the same wife, This is the bujharat. The son(JIVA) took birth first : the father (KAAL) was born afterwards. How can a mortal be born before the cycle of time? Answer: Mortals cannot be born before the cycle of time. This shalok is not talking about birth/creation but one's subjective experience. And it's not talking about kaal. Kabir uses the word Husband to refer to Hari. If the Bijaks are an authentic source of Kabir's writings then must follow the same kind of pattern as those writings in Guru Granth Sahib. So the son is the mortal/mind, father is Hari, wife is Maya. pahale janm putra ka bhayau, bap janmiya pachhe; First came the son, mun, its activities, its wants desires, etc. The Father, Sri Hari, got left behind ie Hari was forgotten. bap put ki akai nari (Forgetting the father) the mun thinks that Maya is his wife, so both mun and Hari have the same wife, Maya. But Sant Kabir says ਦੇਖਹੁ ਲੋਗਾ ਕਲਿ ਕੋ ਭਾਉ ॥ O people, watch this state of Kaliyug. ਸੁਤਿ ਮੁਕਲਾਈ ਅਪਨੀ ਮਾਉ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ The Son (Mun/Mind) thinks the Mother (Maya) belongs to him Due to the ignorance of the immature mind, it thinks that the world and whatever it has to offer belongs to him. It does not. It does not realize that all that he thinks of as permanent is actually impermanent. Guru Tegh Bahadur ji says ਅਸਥਿਰੁ ਜੋ ਮਾਨਿਓ ਦੇਹ ਸੋ ਤਉ ਤੇਰਉ ਹੋਇ ਹੈ ਖੇਹ ॥ ਕਿਉ ਨ ਹਰਿ ਕੋ ਨਾਮੁ ਲੇਹਿ ਮੂਰਖ ਨਿਲਾਜ ਰੇ ॥੧॥ That body which you think is permanent shall be reduced to dust. Why don't you chant the name of Hari, O shameless fool? ਰਾਮ ਭਗਤਿ ਹੀਏ ਆਨਿ ਛਾਡਿ ਦੇ ਤੈ ਮਨ ਕੋ ਮਾਨੁ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਜਨ ਇਹ ਬਖਾਨਿ ਜਗ ਮਹਿ ਬਿਰਾਜੁ ਰੇ ॥੨॥੪॥ Fill your heart with Bhagti of Ram and let go of your mind's false prides. This is what Nanak and his kind preach, this is the way to sit in the world (and be free of the cycle of brith and death). Those two shabads are in fact talking about the same thing. This is the ultimate spiritual bujharat, to turn the mind away from Maya, and towards Sri Hari. Edited February 28, 2014 by BhagatSingh 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucky Posted March 1, 2014 Report Share Posted March 1, 2014 Lucky if the wife gives birth to the husband, then the husband is by definition her son, not husband. If she created her son, then who is the father? But it says the father is the son. The son/husband takes his wife as wife but he is her husband/son... I don't think so. For Kabir 'husband' was Shri Hari. He says: ਜੋ ਜਨ ਲੇਹਿ ਖਸਮ ਕਾ ਨਾਉ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਕੈ ਸਦ ਬਲਿਹਾਰੈ ਜਾਉ ॥੧॥ Those who say the name of Husband (Hari), I am a sacrifice to them. We know for a fact that when Kabir talks about khasam in a spiritual context he is only referring to Hari. This a repeated pattern in not only his bani but in guru granth sahib in general. Guru Arjan dev ji says: ਮੋਹਨ ਮਾਧਵ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ੍ਨ ਮੁਰਾਰੇ ॥ ਜਗਦੀਸੁਰ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਅਸੁਰ ਸੰਘਾਰੇ ॥ Mohan, Madhav, Krishan Murare, Jadishwar, Hari Ji, the slayer of demons. The word Madhav is used a lot in Guru Granth sahib. It is composed of two words Ma, meaning mother/Maya, and Dhav meaning Husband/Hari. Gotcha ! That was real interesting shabad veechar, that's worthy of it's own thread alone ! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
das Posted March 1, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 1, 2014 dam ha boss in your translations 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
das Posted March 1, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 1, 2014 (edited) I don't know if I'm right or wrong but last night I was thinking the following. It seems like we all are agreeing that Son is the Mind/Kaal/Time and Wife/Mother is Maya but we've differences in naming Father. As per the 9th Shabad in Bijak, I think the Father is Kaal and not Ek-Onkar. How can a mortal be born before the cycle of time? Answer: Mortals cannot be born before the cycle of time. This shalok is not talking about birth/creation but one's subjective experience. And it's not talking about kaal. Kabir uses the word Husband to refer to Hari. If the Bijaks are an authentic source of Kabir's writings then must follow the same kind of pattern as those writings in Guru Granth Sahib. So the son is the mortal/mind, father is Hari, wife is Maya. First of all Mind does represent Kaal who does all the deeds but Mortal has to bear its results. So, Mind/Kaal/Time are one and the same thing. Secondly, even if one is talking about subjective experience then it HAS to follow the exact reverse pattern of creation. In other words, one could back to the source only if one follow the way which lead us to here. e.g God created Kaal and then Kaal created all the 3 words in the seqeuence of: Causal/Brahmund, then Astral/Aand, and eventually Physical/Pind. Now, when anyone is climbing spiritually, he/she has in the same reverse sequence of creation. So, in my thinking creation and subjective experience is the same thing with 2 different names. Thirdly, when it was mentioned that "Son/Mortal was born before father"; it was based upon the fact that the when Kaal/Mind requested Ek-Onkar to give him the seed so that he can continue creation, then Ek-Onkar created the Maya and gave her the Root-Seed; and then Ek-Onkar instructed Maya to goto Kaal and continue the creation. So, Father is the Root-Seed (Soul) which was given to Kaal/Mind (Son). In other words, father and son has same mother. In other words, Kaal created the Seed but ONLY with the help of Root-Seed; so Son (Root-Seed/Jiva) was created before Father (Kaal/Time). ਪੂਤਿ ਪਿਤਾ ਇਕੁ ਜਾਇਆ ॥ ਬਿਨੁ ਠਾਹਰ ਨਗਰੁ ਬਸਾਇਆ ॥੨॥ Ek-Onkar is SELF, HE has no start and no end and therefore it is not possible for him to have wife. Ek-Onkar is Neutral neither Positive nor Negative. At last, there are many instances in Guru Granth Sahib Ji when Ek-Onkar is referred to Khasam/Husband and the Soul is us/wife. But there are other instances where Father is said to be different like "Pavan Guru Pani Pita Mata dharat mahat" but that does not mean that Father is Pani..........I just wanted to convey that in 9th shabad of Bijak the metaphor is different and tuks you're referring to from Guru Granth Sahib Ji is different. When we are talking of the God and it's creation, then HE (Ek-Onkar) is the Father; this is the case in Guru Granth Sahib Ji that everyone is aware of. But in the lower creation in which Kaal/Mind is the creator, he is the Father and the Root-Seed is the Son within that subset. I think that Bhagat Kabir Ji in shabad 9 of Bijak is talking about the smaller subset of HIS creation and therefore Kaal/Mind/Time is the creator and Jiva/RootSeed is the Son but keep in mind the real father is the Ek-Onkar. Bhagat Kabir is warning the humans to understand that Son was born before Father implying that there is supreme entity/force called Ek-Onkar who is the real father and NOT the Kaal. Vedas talk about one God, but that is talking about the One Kaal and NOT the Ek-Onkar. So, Kabir Ji was opening the parda that Kaal is not the real-father as he got the Root-Seed from the real-father (Ek-Onkar). It seems like we all are on the same page, but sometimes the written statements don't seem to agree. Edited March 1, 2014 by das 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BhagatSingh Posted March 3, 2014 Report Share Posted March 3, 2014 Ok so this relates to our discussion form the other thread. Das I appreciate you for having an engaging discussion with me. Please continue to provide text from Bijaks as you have done before. I don't know if I'm right or wrong but last night I was thinking the following. It seems like we all are agreeing that Son is the Mind/Kaal/Time and Wife/Mother is Maya but we've differences in naming Father. As per the 9th Shabad in Bijak, I think the Father is Kaal and not Ek-Onkar. I don't think the Son/Mun is Time/Kaal. Time/Kaal is within the realm of Maya. The Son/Mun is bound to Maya and is thus also bound to Time/Kaal. Time is a function of Maya, nothing more, nothing less. When describing the effects of Maya Sant Kabir says ਮਾਇਆ ਮਹਿ ਕਾਲੁ ਅਰੁ ਪੰਚ ਦੂਤਾ ॥੩॥ Kaal (time) and the Five Evils (kaam, lobh etc) reside in Maya. First of all Mind does represent Kaal who does all the deeds but Mortal has to bear its results. So, Mind/Kaal/Time are one and the same thing As I understand Sant Kabir's bani in Guru Granth Sahib, it is Hari who is the doer and knower of everything. He says: ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕਰਨ ਕਰਾਵਨਹਾਰੀ ॥ ਕਿਆ ਚੇਰੀ ਹਾਥ ਬਿਚਾਰੀ ॥ Prabhu is the doer, he gets everything done through me. Who am I to do anything? God created Kaal and then Kaal created all the 3 words in the seqeuence of: Causal/Brahmund, then Astral/Aand, and eventually Physical/Pind. /snip Thirdly, when it was mentioned that "Son/Mortal was born before father"; it was based upon the fact that the when Kaal/Mind requested Ek-Onkar to give him the seed so that he can continue creation, then Ek-Onkar created the Maya and gave her the Root-Seed; and then Ek-Onkar instructed Maya to goto Kaal and continue the creation. So, Father is the Root-Seed (Soul) which was given to Kaal/Mind (Son). Please provide the source of this. At last, there are many instances in Guru Granth Sahib Ji when Ek-Onkar is referred to Khasam/Husband and the Soul is us/wife. But there are other instances where Father is said to be different like "Pavan Guru Pani Pita Mata dharat mahat" but that does not mean that Father is Pani..........I just wanted to convey that in 9th shabad of Bijak the metaphor is different and tuks you're referring to from Guru Granth Sahib Ji is different. Yes however we must understand the context of the shabad to know whether it is talking about Hari (father of the universe) or Pani (father of living beings) or anyone's particular father. Kabir when talking about Khasam or father in this context is only speaking of Hari. Plus, we also know what the spiritual bujharat from Guru Granth Sahib. It is a common theme of Guru Granth Sahib. It is stated in many forms. This father, mother, son form is just one of the many. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
das Posted March 3, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2014 Yes, I do agree that Mind/Kaal/Time is under the influence of Maya. It is because Maya was given the Root-Seed by Ek-Onkar. "Anurag Sagar" did help me to understand some concepts that are defined in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. "Anurag Sagar by Bhagat Kabir" does have this information where Ek-Onkar provided the Root-Seed to Maya and then instructed her to goto Kaal (power created by Ek-Onkar itself) in order to continue the creation (as desired by Kaal). Here don't mix Kaal with so-called Devil/Evil, keep in mind that he is still under the Ek-Onkar but yes it (Kaal) did have free-will even though it's like dog with a chain (like we humans also have free-will). So, again my take is: The ultimate Father of this whole creation is Ek-Onkar/Hari; but in some shabads (like the one I originally posted from Bijak) Kaal is tagged as the father (as he claims in Vedas); in other words, he (kaal) is called a father and at the same time it is also mentioned that the son (jiva/root-seed) took birth first in order to dispute the claim of Kaal (in Vedas) that he is father. Therefore, we both are on same page that the ultimate Father is Ek-Onkar/Hari (Tu Mera Pita, Tuhe Mera Mata....) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BhagatSingh Posted March 3, 2014 Report Share Posted March 3, 2014 Das I know you are reading Anurag Sagar. I am looking for page numbers, paragraph numbers or quotes. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
das Posted March 3, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2014 (edited) It would be unjustice if you just read couple of pages from Anurag Sagar as it is very important to understand the whole story of creation including the 16 Shabads (Sounds/Power/Kala) of Ek-Onkar. So, I would suggest you to read at-least anurag-sagar-EN.pdf (1) for "The Tale of Creation" from digital page 113 to 234. To the point English transaltion: https://archive.org/download/AnuragSagarOfKabir/Anurag-Sagar-Complete.pdf Very Good translation with more explanation: http://www.santmat-thetruth.de/tl_files/allgemein-content/schriften/pdf/books/anurag-sagar-en.pdf Translation (not full) with original shabads in English: Good for the sake of original shabads in Hindi: http://www.aors-dbbs.org/enter/books/pdf/anurag-sagar-1.pdf I originally read (1) Anurag Sagar around 2-3 years back. Recently got (2) and to me it seems like more detailed. Also in the Spiritual progress, above trikuti there is one place called Void/Maha-Sunn/Great-Silence and it is instructed by Sants NOT to bother with this space as this is the plane of Kal Niranjan (The plane of Void). Edited March 4, 2014 by das 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucky Posted March 3, 2014 Report Share Posted March 3, 2014 Also in the Spiritual progress, trikuti there is one place called Void/Maha-Sunn/Great-Silence and it is instructed by Sants NOT to bother with this space as this is the plane of Kal Niranjan (The plane of Void). I'm not too sure about the above. I understand this void as a place where there are no thoughts whatsover. Because thoughts, themselves are maya. My idea is to find this place and let the 'sound' of waheguru manifest there. So, it doesn't actually become a void ! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
das Posted March 4, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2014 (edited) There was a typo, I meant to say that "above trikuti...", I've also modified my original post. Thanks for bringing that into notice. If I remember correctly, somewhere in Deewans or Diary of Sant Baba Isher Singh Ji and also Sant Baba Waryam Singh Ji in his books have warned about the spirtual state of void/maha-sunn. Yes, you are right that Void is without thoughts, without karmas but still it is the greatest deceiver. Remember, Kaal Niranjin (after the creation of 3 Gods) has gone into the place which was given to him by Ek-Onkar and he made his presence felt in lower regions only in the shape of Mind. Once in Maha Sunn we're beyond the Mind, beyond the thoughts BUT still under the influence of the creator of the Mind. Maha Sunn is a plane of 'unbelievable darkness', which engulfs all Light. The soul can only get through it savely, when she connects herself with the True Master, Shabd Dhun. If the soul relies upon herself and upon her achievements and does not completeley rely upon the True Master, she will get lost in this plane. Maha-Sunn is between Daswan Davar and the first plane of Sachkhand. It (Maha-Sunn) cannot be crossed over in any case without The Help of Guru. Almost every Sant warns us about this great Void (Maha Sunn) which is the nij ghar of Kaal Niranjan. Note: This is what I've read and believe based upon the material that was provided to me by my Guru. I have NOT yet experienced anything, so I don't know if my understanding is right or wrong. But believing in Guru, I do think HE is enabling my mind to understand the right picture to some extent. e.g Say 2 persons visit same city "New York" and later wrote their experiences in 2 different articles describing the New York city. The readers of those 2 articles would get 2 versions of same "New York" city. BUT the person who has also visited "New York" would NOT get the different picture after reading the 2 articles from 2 persons. So, I might get a different idea as I've NOT visited that place yet. Edited March 4, 2014 by das 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.