In Response To An Article In The Sikhchic.com.

[Riaz Gujjar]

wwwschic

Edited May 16, 2014 by Riaz Gujjar

[Genie Singh]

http://www.sikhchic.com/partition/what_a_partition

(This was originally posted on their webpage but just in case they don't publish it , here is a response from a Pak Punjabi;. Regards...)

Take a look at who wrote the article the name is not a Sikh name but a Muhammden we don't care much about India's occupied land with false Jinnah identities, the whole region is in dismay.

[Genie Singh]

If you still don't get the mind-set of Pakistani Punjabis then with your "warlike toughness" you can try and wrest away Nankana sahib, Punja sahib away from us. See what we will do even if Pakistan remains just a Punjab we will not give up an inch of our Sacred Soil to Tara Singh's Sikhs.

http://www.sikhchic.com/partition/what_a_partition

(This was originally posted on their webpage but just in case they don't publish it , here is a response from a Pak Punjabi;. Regards...)

Lahore was already captured in the war Porkistan started and lost, Indira Gandhi ordered the region to be returned back to Porkistanis. International alliances have made taking again slightly more complicated but it can be done as long as the Gandhi family who are actually the Khan family in false guise is shifted out of power.

[Genie Singh]

Your myth of secular ranjit singh does not stand its ground. ranjit Singh was a totalitarian Sikh who ruled in the name of the Sikh empire .If you Sikhs had truly considered our interests in Spirit then you would not have had the need to make an alliance with the Hill Rajas and Dograys. Fact of the matter is Punjabi Muslims welcomed the arrival of the British in Punjab same as when Sikhs welcomed the demise of the Mughals.

Nearly 50% of Sikh holy places are in Pakistan, if you had been wise you could have made a proper agreement with Pakistan and come to some sort of an understanding. But you choose the path of Confrontation and foolishly thought Hindu India would protect you.

http://www.sikhchic.com/partition/what_a_partition

(This was originally posted on their webpage but just in case they don't publish it , here is a response from a Pak Punjabi;. Regards...)

More than 50% of Mughal India's historical sites are in Hindustan, the rest of the dargahs in Porkistan well the taliban are doing a great job at blowing them up.

Ranjit Singh was a secularist and that was problematic for Sikhs who had firm faith they didn't like his diplomatic attempts and perceived them as brown nosing. He allowed Muhammdens to have a say in his court and life, from his courtesan muhammden wife to his generals. Who were probably selling him out to other Muhammdens. Aurangzeb is the definition of totaliarian the difference in Ranjit Singh's empire and the Mughals is land and sky. Mughals were worse than the taliban, killing people, abducting, killing. Ranjit Singh allowed order in his court and hearing and didn't have nutty fatwas ordering gruesome punishments in reference to haddiths of Muhammad doing insane punishments such as crucifying people, putting hot nails in their eye, ordering camels to pull apart bodies, cutting fingers and necks, taking to bed peoples wives, amputations of limbs and so on. Ranjit Singh had a higher moral framework not to follow an insane man as the highest potential of humanity.

Edited May 13, 2014 by JatherdarSahib

[amar_jkp]

before you Sikhs gleeflee cheer on this piece of trash. bear in mind that you as the so called up holders of Punjabi should be the 1st 1s to condemn this article,less even uploading it. But you wont because you have this mentality of hating other Punjabis, especially when it comes to Muslims and Pakistan.

1st of all I despise Punjabis who hate their culture, language, history no matter if Hindu Sikh or Muslim. YOU CAN HATE OTHER PUNJABIS ALL YOU WANT but hating yourself for who you are is almost upwards to Sin.

This man is such a person. he comes from a Kassar Jat background 1 of a prominent tribe in Chakwal. he was a part of PML noon (A mostly Punjab based party) on and off. a typical opportunist, he got Panthi at the hands of "Punjabi" establishment during the Musharraf years so much so that he started to Curse/Abuse fellow Punjabis where ever he went even though he is also a Punjabi. Maybe he should declare his rejection of being a Punjabi himself outright then playing field in a constant circus drama .

His articles contain the most poisonous vile of Rumours and Stories relating to Punjab. imagine if a prominent Sikh starts writing stuff against Sikhism while pretending to be Secular and not hurt religious feelings.

Well this man does the same except against Punjabis. In Pakistan we have no shortage of these Self-hate individuals including Punjabi "Kashmiris" like Hamid Mir, Ahmed Qureshi and some "BUTTS" here and there who are on Indian payroll.

Not to forgot your favourite "Tarek fatah" who I know many Sikhs admire for his analysis on Pakistan, hates Khaliistan to the core. calls Bhindranwale a terrorist, Sikhs killed by Indian security forces "radical extremists" and does all he can to block motions of protest on human rights by Sikhs against India in Canada.

Now coming to the 2nd part of Amir's pathetic write up of only Sikhs being brave as Punjabis.

lets consider the facts.

out of the Punjabis/north Indians who fought in both world wars, ww1/ ww2 and who won Victoria crosses.

5 were Muslim Punjabis.

4 were Sikh Punjabis.

4 were Hindu Punjabis.

just 2 were pathans(they won separately nothing to do with Punjabi Muslims.)

Of course likewise many Sikhs,Gurkhas,Hindus, Muslims won many awards outside of major conflicts but regarding North India/Punjab and their contribution to the British Indian army.

Punjabi Musalmans were at the forefront followed by Punjabi Sikhs and Punjabi Hindus .

we were the "backbone" of the British Indian army.

In Pakistan 9 out of 11 Nishan e Haider( Pak's Highest Award) have been bravely won by Punjabis from pure tribes like Raja,Jatt,Gujjar,Bhatti,Minhas, Janjua and so on on....

The man who led us in 1971 was a Pathan, the man who surrendered our forces in Bangladesh was a Pathan albeit a Punjabised Pashtun,often racist Niazis proudly claim their Pukhtoon heritage yet deceitfully forgot to furnish it around in 71 instead Hiding behind the guise of being Punjabis if it comes to Defeat and Pashtuns if on Victory.

You Sikhs remember Longewala and do Pangra there but why do you forget battles where Punjabis from our side fought bravely often against you and sometimes vastly outnumbered.

battles like

battle of chaamb, battle of fazilka , battle of hussainiwala and battle of Hilli where the pure Punjabi (pathans are outsiders). Brigadier Hussian was the last to surrender in east Pakistan soil.

All of these battles including ones in 65 are full of accomplished Punjabi Pakistani heroes.

Having said that I also regard other Punjabis as Brave, accomplishing in their own right. I used to think that Hindu Punjabis were cowards or not good fighters as Sikhs however after glossing over some facts I think they can also be equally challenging if not more.

E.g. The battle of Barapind 1971 involved many Haryanvis and Himachali dogras.

So my respects to Haryanvis, Himachalis I also consider them Punjabis after all they were part ofit.

Now coming back to the last point of why Pak Army or "Punjabi Army" is struggling against the Taliban.

ill give you just 1 clue "Tolerance" we by that I mean some influential Punjabis or Pakistanis have a soft corner for these Qatil pathans.After all they are our "Muslim brothers" so thinks the Khanzeer Imran khan and his like minded friends.

Why do you think that out of all regiments in Pak army i.e. Frontier Force regiment was 50% Punjabi until 2000. Baloch regiment was historically 80% but has come down to 60% Punjabi now.

contd*- the Punjab regiment which is 60/70% Punjabi located in Mardan HQ has constantly come under attack by 12 to 14 year old Pashtun suicide bombers. NO other regimental centre has witnessed such attacks at this magnitude.

Its because the pathan Taliban knows it got a beating mainly from Punjabi soldiers in FATA and Swat.At least you Sikhs live in the plains like us but the pathans who have a Cowardly Disgusting Habit of Savagery run back to their Caves after skirmishes.

But more then that we have a more deadly enemy the "Punjabi Taliban" these are the people who gave a Hell of a time to the Indian army in Kashmir. 20,000 Indian soldiers perished in Kashmir at the Hands of these Pakistani/Kashmir fighters.

Did you know that of the 15,000 presumed Pakistans who died in Kashmir conflict 10,000 were Punjabi! very few pathans fought in Kashmir no more then few hundred but many Urban Educated as well as Poor Punjabis fought in Kashmir.

Pathans mainly concentrated on helping Afghan Pashtuns with the Taliban while the Punjabis and Karachi Muhjhairs were the backbone of the insurgency in Kashmir. They came from sectarian groups and groups like JEM , Let,Huji etc.

So when you see words like "Kashmir based groups" they are mainly but not exclusively Punjabi.

These are the groups which pioneered the use of "Fedayeen attacks" 1st in Kashmir then in Afghanistan and now in Pakistan.Most of these groups currently tow the Pak government line of wait and see policy of India vis-à-vis Kashmir.

However some of them have been Angry at Pak's Uturn on Kashmir which they say is betrayal and because of that and incidents like Lal Masjid made them turn against the state with them becoming rogue and responsible for many major attacks inside Pakistan.

pathans still don't have brains that's why most of planning is done by Punjabi groups who use Pashtun assets and sometimes their own e.g.GHQ ATTACK 2009.

I always wondered when Punjabi Muslims have a deep enmity with Sikhs then why cant that be transferred over to the Pathans.

But then there lies the simple answers .

1)Some of these Pashtun and Punjabi groups have same Deobandi ideology including in so called moderate leaders like Hafiz Saeed

2)Their relation ship is interlinked especially with the sectarian groups.

3) We have mini Afghanistan in Pakistan (FATA) where there Is no law/no police which is haven for criminals and terrorists of all kind.

While I admire the position of the Sikhs in facing the Afghans and the British.

The way you lot behaved in 1947 is truly Shamefull. Instead of being Neutral or Independent you threw yourselves in with the Hindus and led the carnage in Punjab.

Our fight was with the Hindu Elites why did you got involved so Fervently with the Congress Against us ?

My grandfather witnessed the horrors of Partition/WW2, he was in the 2nd Battalion of the 10th Baluch Regiment. A survivor of Malaya and Singapore Campaigns, he endured 3 Gruelling years as a pow in jap camps near Papua New Guinea yet not even the Severe Cruelty of the jap tormentors kept him for what he was to witness in 47/48.

After being released from the army In 45 and called up as a reserve in August 47 he volunteered in his old unit which was tasked with protecting refugees from Amiirtsar,Hoshiarpur, Jalandhar, Gurdaspur districts.

in 1 of these incidents he remembered coming across a makeshift hospital where besides the refugees lay Muslim service members of the Sikh states who had been disarmed and "cut up". their hands and legs had been cut off, some had eyes gouged out others had been given poison mixed with food. And some had tattoos carved with Sikh symbols.

"This is a present from the Maharajah to Jinnah") in exchange the Soldiers of the unit vowed to bring back the Ring fingers or Thumbs of Captured, Killed, Wounded Sikh Jathedars, Army or Police personal involved in the Violence.

its true that some of the earliest violence started in march 1947 but do you know why it did/? your beloved Tara Singh was going around and Asking/ Energizing Sikhs to come out in the streets and defend their Religion by attacking Muslim league jalooses/processions and demanding destruction of Pakistan.

Muslim league goondas retaliated not only by the daily pitched battles in Lahore, Amirtsar Rawalpindi and Multan but also by attacking some innocent villagers around Rawalpindi.

Condemnable the early violence as it was in march 47 , nowhere was it widespread or large as exaggerated in the Sikh media.

infact most of the Hindu Sikh residents left in August/September 1947 and many were also forced to stay on in the near by camps for 3-4 months including the survivors of march 47. some of the Camps were still operating till mid 1948.

The Hindus and Sikhs of my village left on august 21 1947 many were saved but some also got killed even left behind.

Nehru Jinnah, Gandhi, Mountbatten were all Greedy Criminals who wanted power above anything. However Tara Singh, Patel and Suhrawardy were Mass Murderers, thugs who couldn't get power through Peaceful Elections and resorted to Communalization to further their barbaric ideas.

If you Sikhs had any sense you would have not agreed to the partition of Punjab.As much as an idiot Jinnah was, he wanted to keep the Punjab United! Punjab was Muslim majority if you Sikhs had joined us in 1947 then neither 84 Nor 9/11 would have happened. because you would have been a Significant large minority which would have balanced things out in

Pakistan e.g. 1 side pathans and the other Sikhs. There would have been less or no extremism. hell Jinnah even offered you Sikhs an opt-out of Pakistan after 10 years if your promises were not fulfilled this was the same thing Jinnah asked for in cabinet mission plan if India was to be United but Congress did not agree they never wanted to Share Power. That's why they managed to rule for over 50 years. if Pakistan by any chance would have failed Sikh aspirations then Sikhs could always have turned to India and Indian army would easily roll in to Punjab on backs of Sikhs and could seriously threaten the sovereignty of entire Pakistan.

But you never took the chance and Unconditionally supported Nehru. You had your fears of returning back to Mughal rule in 1947 and we had of going back to ranjit Singh's days.

Your myth of secular ranjit singh does not stand its ground. ranjit Singh was a totalitarian Sikh who ruled in the name of the Sikh empire .If you Sikhs had truly considered our interests in Spirit then you would not have had the need to make an alliance with the Hill Rajas and Dograys. Fact of the matter is Punjabi Muslims welcomed the arrival of the British in Punjab same as when Sikhs welcomed the demise of the Mughals.

Nearly 50% of Sikh holy places are in Pakistan, if you had been wise you could have made a proper agreement with Pakistan and come to some sort of an understanding. But you choose the path of Confrontation and foolishly thought Hindu India would protect you.

Having compelled the Sikhs to Sheer frustration and Impossible odds, the Coward Master Singh fled at the 1st instance of trouble when the fire finally Hit Home, abandoning thousands of his followers in the Process.

If you still don't get the mind-set of Pakistani Punjabis then with your "warlike toughness" you can try and wrest away Nankana sahib, Punja sahib away from us. See what we will do even if Pakistan remains just a Punjab we will not give up an inch of our Sacred Soil to Tara Singh's Sikhs.

http://www.sikhchic.com/partition/what_a_partition

(This was originally posted on their webpage but just in case they don't publish it , here is a response from a Pak Punjabi;. Regards...)

Kaka Gujjar looks like you haven't visit you punjab towns where people can be see speaking in urdu rather then in Punjabi and take the name of our leader Master Singh with respect otherwise this topic will becomes a anti Muslim . We already have Hindu Jihadi and now we dont want Talibani here .

[Riaz Gujjar]

More than 50% of Mughal India's historical sites are in Hindustan, the rest of the dargahs in Porkistan well the taliban are doing a great job at blowing them up.

Edited May 16, 2014 by Riaz Gujjar

[Riaz Gujjar]

Kaka Gujjar looks like you haven't visit you punjab towns where people can be see speaking in urdu rather then in Punjabi and take the name of our leader Master Singh with respect otherwise this topic will becomes a anti Muslim . We already have Hindu Jihadi and now we dont want Talibani here .

Edited May 16, 2014 by Riaz Gujjar

[Amarjeet Singh_1737]

Lahore was already captured in the war Porkistan started and lost, Indira Gandhi ordered the region to be returned back to Porkistanis. International alliances have made taking again slightly more complicated but it can be done as long as the Gandhi family who are actually the Khan family in false guise is shifted out of power.

Isn't this the same idiot who was on Sikhsangat under the pseudonym PakistaniPunjabi or PPO1?

[tonyhp32]

Interesting rant and one that reveals the mentality of many Pakistani Punjabis.

lets consider the facts.

out of the Punjabis/north Indians who fought in both world wars, ww1/ ww2 and who won Victoria crosses.

5 were Muslim Punjabis.

4 were Sikh Punjabis.

4 were Hindu Punjabis.

just 2 were pathans(they won separately nothing to do with Punjabi Muslims.)

But the Sikhs were only 5 Million compared to 16 Million Punjabi Muslims. So if the the Sikhs were only as 'brave' as the rest of the Punjabis then they should only have won 1 VC rather than 4. You might then say that there were more Sikhs than Punjabi Muslims in the British army but even there the ratio was 1 Sikh for every 2 Punjabi Muslims, so even by that ratio the Sikhs should only have won 2 VC and yet won 4!

battles like

battle of chaamb, battle of fazilka , battle of hussainiwala and battle of Hilli where the pure Punjabi (pathans are outsiders). Brigadier Hussian was the last to surrender in east Pakistan soil.

All of these battles including ones in 65 are full of accomplished Punjabi Pakistani heroes.

Having said that I also regard other Punjabis as Brave, accomplishing in their own right. I used to think that Hindu Punjabis were cowards or not good fighters as Sikhs however after glossing over some facts I think they can also be equally challenging if not more.

E.g. The battle of Barapind 1971 involved many Haryanvis and Himachali dogras.

So my respects to Haryanvis, Himachalis I also consider them Punjabis after all they were part ofit.

It's not the battles that matter but the result of the war. Pakistan hasn't won one war that it has fought in. Quite a record.

If you Sikhs had any sense you would have not agreed to the partition of Punjab.As much as an idiot Jinnah was, he wanted to keep the Punjab United! Punjab was Muslim majority if you Sikhs had joined us in 1947 then neither 84 Nor 9/11 would have happened. because you would have been a Significant large minority which would have balanced things out in

Pakistan e.g. 1 side pathans and the other Sikhs. There would have been less or no extremism. hell Jinnah even offered you Sikhs an opt-out of Pakistan after 10 years if your promises were not fulfilled this was the same thing Jinnah asked for in cabinet mission plan if India was to be United but Congress did not agree they never wanted to Share Power. That's why they managed to rule for over 50 years. if Pakistan by any chance would have failed Sikh aspirations then Sikhs could always have turned to India and Indian army would easily roll in to Punjab on backs of Sikhs and could seriously threaten the sovereignty of entire Pakistan.

The Sikh leaders knew that Jinnah could not guarantee anything. His claim that after his death his word would have been law shows how deluded he was of the nature of the state he was creating. The Sikhs would have been just like the Hindus and Christians are in Pakistan at the moment. Any minority in a Muslim majority state can never live with any dignity or even hope to be equal citizens in that state. I agree that the Sikh leaders made a mistake by joining the Congress and Nehru. Sikhs should have fought for Khalistan, they already had 8% of Punjab which was the Sikh states of Patiala and others and they should fought for to get the districts of Amritsar, Ludhiana, Jullundur, Gurdaspur and Lahore into that state. This would have ensured no 1984 although 9/11 would have happened anyway.

its true that some of the earliest violence started in march 1947 but do you know why it did/? your beloved Tara Singh was going around and Asking/ Energizing Sikhs to come out in the streets and defend their Religion by attacking Muslim league jalooses/processions and demanding destruction of Pakistan.

Muslim league goondas retaliated not only by the daily pitched battles in Lahore, Amirtsar Rawalpindi and Multan but also by attacking some innocent villagers around Rawalpindi.

Condemnable the early violence as it was in march 47 , nowhere was it widespread or large as exaggerated in the Sikh media.

The Sikhs and Hindus were against Pakistan for the reasons that no non-Muslims live with any dignity in a Muslim state. Master Tara Singh was uniting the two communities for the oncoming onslaught. Everything he was doing was entirely democratic. This included demonstrations against the claim of the Muslim League to form the Punjab government. He did give the slogan of 'Pakistan Murdabad' just as the Muslim League had been holding similar demonstrations against the Unionist led government in Punjab for the previous few months. These Muslim demonstration included the murder by a Muslim mob of a Sikh policeman. The oft-repeated story of his attacking the Muslim league flag with a sword is a myth created by the Muslim league to justify the genocide that they committed on the Hindus and Sikhs in the villages of Rawalpindi. Your claim that the violence was not as large or widespread as the Sikh media states. This is not the case, according to the govt 2000 people were murdered, countless raped and injured. This is about the same as those killed in Gujarat in 2002. Do you think that that violence was also exaggerated as well? You also do not seem to know the full facts. The initial attacks were on the Sikhs of Rawalpindi, who because they were well armed the gave the Muslims a drubbing so like all cowards they then switched to inciting the villagers around the town to attack the minority Sikhs in the villages.

Your myth of secular ranjit singh does not stand its ground. ranjit Singh was a totalitarian Sikh who ruled in the name of the Sikh empire .If you Sikhs had truly considered our interests in Spirit then you would not have had the need to make an alliance with the Hill Rajas and Dograys. Fact of the matter is Punjabi Muslims welcomed the arrival of the British in Punjab same as when Sikhs welcomed the demise of the Mughals.

I agree. Sikhs have been victim to the myths of Maharaja Ranjit Singh's secularism which have been created on the Pakistani side by the descendants of the Faqeer brothers and on the Indian side by socialist historians. Maharaja Ranjit Singh was a pragmatist, he used the Punjabi Muslims and gave them just enough rights to ensure there was no rebellion. Not that he had any fears of a rebellion because the Punjabi Muslims had been emasculated in the first few decades of the 19th century so even though the Azan and cow slaughter was banned, the Muslims in his kingdom never rebelled.

While I admire the position of the Sikhs in facing the Afghans and the British.

The way you lot behaved in 1947 is truly Shamefull. Instead of being Neutral or Independent you threw yourselves in with the Hindus and led the carnage in Punjab.

Our fight was with the Hindu Elites why did you got involved so Fervently with the Congress Against us ?

My grandfather witnessed the horrors of Partition/WW2, he was in the 2nd Battalion of the 10th Baluch Regiment. A survivor of Malaya and Singapore Campaigns, he endured 3 Gruelling years as a pow in jap camps near Papua New Guinea yet not even the Severe Cruelty of the jap tormentors kept him for what he was to witness in 47/48.

After being released from the army In 45 and called up as a reserve in August 47 he volunteered in his old unit which was tasked with protecting refugees from Amiirtsar,Hoshiarpur, Jalandhar, Gurdaspur districts.

in 1 of these incidents he remembered coming across a makeshift hospital where besides the refugees lay Muslim service members of the Sikh states who had been disarmed and "cut up". their hands and legs had been cut off, some had eyes gouged out others had been given poison mixed with food. And some had tattoos carved with Sikh symbols.

"This is a present from the Maharajah to Jinnah") in exchange the Soldiers of the unit vowed to bring back the Ring fingers or Thumbs of Captured, Killed, Wounded Sikh Jathedars, Army or Police personal involved in the Violence.

The reaction in East Punjab came after the Sikhs had been at the receiving end of a genocide in the villages of Rawalpindi and the survivors had migrated to East Punjab and their stories of the atrocities of the Muslims were be told and retold for months in East Punjab. If you want to blame anyone for the way the Muslims of East Punjab were killed then you should blame the Muslim league for orchestrating the massacres in the villages of Rawalpindi. It is surprising that a Muslim now complains about the violence his people were subjected to when the violence was the direct result of the violence has own people committed against the Sikhs. So do think the Sikhs should have kept a score and only killed the same number of Muslims as the number of Sikhs killed by Muslims!

Having compelled the Sikhs to Sheer frustration and Impossible odds, the Coward Master Singh fled at the 1st instance of trouble when the fire finally Hit Home, abandoning thousands of his followers in the Process.

The only mistake made by the Sikhs in 1947 is that they kept their patience and only resorted to mass violence after the announcement of the partition boundaries. The Muslim League leaders after the March 1947 violence in Rawalpindi started to spread the belief that the Sikhs had lost their martial prowess, that the Muslims had put the Sikhs in their place and hence they had no need to make any overtures to the Sikhs to keep the Punjab united. Jinnah never made a statement against the violence and it was from then on that the Sikhs did not entertain any agreement with the ML. If the Sikhs had retaliated in March 1947 then both the Congress and the ML would have taken their threat to derail the partition should they not get Nankana Sahib and the Canal Colonies in East Punjab more seriously.

Jatherdar Sikh bacha bacha of Punjab Pakistan knows how to shoot. We have more guns in Punjab alone then the whole of india. We are armed to the teeth and ready to welcome you any time.

An armed population is a good thing but the armed Pakistanis are not the same as the armed Israelis who undergo many months of military training and can take orders from authority. The armed Pakistanis have no such training and any of them can be brainwashed by a Mullah to kill shias/ahmedis/barelwis take your pick. Pakistan is on the way to becoming a failed state like Somalia.

Edited May 14, 2014 by tonyhp32

[OnPathToSikhi]

http://jagopunjabjagoindia.com/sikh-muslim-clash-in-hyderabad-condemned-32028

[amar_jkp]

Sikh saab I have said nothing bad about your gurus or your religion. why should I pretend otherwise, I don't have a high opinion of you Sikhs but I wont let that come in to political discussion which should not involve religion.

@jatherdarsahib has tried to ignite the fuse with spreading false information about the prophet (pbuh) in turn I can say a thousand things about your gurus or Sikhism but I don't wont to waste time in it.

my discussion is limited to political history and political leaders. Believe me i hate all the partition leaders but tara singh was the most coward of them all. why did he flee early, why didn't he stood his ground???

Strictly speaking I think Sikhs should stop coming to Pakistan, we don't want you lot here that way our problems wouldn't arise.I think every Pakistani should oppose khalistan cos of betrayal by Sikhs in 1947

Regarding Urdu, every one knows plus it has the same script for Punjabi so its easier to write etc.

yes some of younger generation is losing out their heritage but trust me Punjabi is still very much alive in the pindoos and Songs ,Poems, Stories etc. etc. I feel more comfortable in speaking Punjabi then Urdu.

BTW How will you stop the continues Sanskritization of Punjabi and Spreading of Hindi on your side?

Jatherdar Sikh bacha bacha of Punjab Pakistan knows how to shoot. We have more guns in Punjab alone then the whole of india. We are armed to the teeth and ready to welcome you any time.

believe me if the deobandi ideology takes hold in Pakistan then Punjab wouldn't be much different from Fata. What will you do then, who will safe guard your shrines//??/ Who will be there with Garlands at the wagha station to say jee ayan nu? so you hating the Sufi philosophy should think of the consequences. Gandhi family is a Hindu family don't be oblivious, she was the "Durga Mata" according to the hindus so why exactly she destroyed east Pakistan if ur assuming she is muslim?

Honestly speaking whole world not just Sikh doesn't have very good opinion on Islam . And what Punjabi Punjabi you are shouting here ? You people are the weakest of all Punjabis who surrender and become muslim even a Hindu lala is 1000 time more brave then you . Tell one thing you have done for the promotion of Punjabi in and outside Pakistan ? If Tara Singh was coward , what about your Jinnah what was he a soorma ? I haven't about his bravery yet . Nobody wants to come to you country and neither we need your support for Khalasthan . If you people love Punjabi so much they why you demanded Pakistan ? We never joined you because we know you character , We have seen how you treat you largest minority Christians .

Edited May 14, 2014 by amar_jkp

[Riaz Gujjar]

Interesting rant and one that reveals the mentality of many Pakistani Punjabis.

Edited May 16, 2014 by Riaz Gujjar

[Riaz Gujjar]

Riaz Gujjar, on 15 May 2014 - 09:36 AM, said:

tonyhp32, on 14 May 2014 - 7:12 PM, said:

Interesting rant and one that reveals the mentality of many Pakistani Punjabis.

.

I find this to be totally non-sensical thread.

My Pakistani friend is claiming that his community (Punjabi Muslims) were the bravest as their numbers were the highest in the British army and they won highest number of VCs from among three Punjabi religious groups. Since when we have started ascertaining bravery based on the deeds of mercenaries? Your whole argument of Punjabi Muslim bravery is based on those who acted as cannon fodder for the British in the two world wars and also, more importantly, suppressing indigenous freedom movements (starting from 1857 war for independence).

I think it would be rare occasion when I agree slightly with an 'in-house' Sikh fanatic like Amar when he says that the Punjabi Muslims were the weakest of three as they gave up their faith and converted en masse (esp Gujjars, jats, Arains).

Edited May 16, 2014 by Riaz Gujjar

[Amarjeet Singh_1737]

The martial history of the Punjabi Muslims has been overtly lackadaisical in more than one respect. The fall of the Mughal empire heralded this epoch with several different aboriginal powers tearing it to pieces.

[Riaz Gujjar]

Tara Singh ran because he was a bania. Same with all those who wanted partition.

Which muslims welcomed British?

I kust know many Jatts fought with the Sikhs and even had their land taken away.

Otherwise, keep talking sikh v. muslim with these bhappas and phulkian jatts like aman. Aman who is a hinduvta traitor to his mother.

You're a gujjar right? You know who you can talk bad to, and who you can't.

Cheta rakhi, Jatt Naal Panga Not B Changa.

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Edited May 16, 2014 by Riaz Gujjar

[Riaz Gujjar]

Honestly speaking whole world not just Sikh doesn't have very good opinion on Islam . And what Punjabi Punjabi you are shouting here ? You people are the weakest of all Punjabis who surrender and become muslim even a Hindu lala is 1000 time more brave then you . Tell one thing you have done for the promotion of Punjabi in and outside Pakistan ? If Tara Singh was coward , what about your Jinnah what was he a soorma ? I haven't about his bravery yet . Nobody wants to come to you country and neither we need your support for Khalasthan . If you people love Punjabi so much they why you demanded Pakistan ? We never joined you because we know you character , We have seen how you treat you largest minority Christians .

Edited May 16, 2014 by Riaz Gujjar

[Riaz Gujjar]

Coming back to point

Edited May 16, 2014 by Riaz Gujjar

[Riaz Gujjar]

I am not going to waste my time on countering such sweeping generalisations.

You boasted about Punjabi Muslims' bravery, read Aakar Patel's article again. Being cannon-fodder or treacherous bastards brutalising your own compatriots cannot make any quam brave.

Also, punjabi Muslims is the most hated ethnic group in Pakistan. balochis, pathans, Sindhis, kashmiris ALL hate them. Forget hindus and Sikhs, you are killing your own (Shias, Ahmediyas, Hazaras, etc).

Edited May 16, 2014 by Riaz Gujjar

[Riaz Gujjar]

Coming back to "Hindu Sher's" point of " Punjabi Muslims" being coward?!.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/26425666?searchTerm=train

Doesn't prove anything. Sikhs & Hindus attacked, 6 Hindu soldiers REPORTEDLY did not resist.

Edited May 16, 2014 by Riaz Gujjar

[Genie Singh]

Jatherdar Sikh bacha bacha of Punjab Pakistan knows how to shoot. We have more guns in Punjab alone then the whole of india. We are armed to the teeth and ready to welcome you any time.

believe me if the deobandi ideology takes hold in Pakistan then Punjab wouldn't be much different from Fata. What will you do then, who will safe guard your shrines//??/ Who will be there with Garlands at the wagha station to say jee ayan nu? so you hating the Sufi philosophy should think of the consequences. Gandhi family is a Hindu family don't be oblivious, she was the "Durga Mata" according to the hindus so why exactly she destroyed east Pakistan if ur assuming she is muslim?

Porkistan has more guns for porkistanis to kill each other with but when it comes to national defence India's army and weapons technology is stronger. Good luck with your utopia of porkistan carry on with the sectarian violence.

Sufi philosophy is something I don't care much for Aurangzeb was from a sufi order and he was a nut case even if you are a sufi or a wahabbi or what ever you still go back to the same book of lies the koran and haddiths full of hatred, there is no hope for humanity within it. Garlands from employees trying to better the decaying economy of a failed state with tourism, you can keep the flowers I don't want to be in the middle of you guys trying to kill one another.

Why do we need Rumi or Hafiz when we can go to their source of the Dhammapada and the New Testament for the likeable philosophy and philosophy shouldn't tell you to kill yourself and get 72 virgin women in the place the invisible man with a long beard lives at.

Edited May 15, 2014 by JatherdarSahib

[tonyhp32]

Yes but what guarantee did the Sikhs have that the Hindus would honour their word? why were you putting so much trust in them. After all their agreements were also in a verbal nature were they not? . I agree that Jinnah was vague in what he was promising the Sikhs but at least he tried everything to get support of the Sikhs, the Muslim league historically never had a Anti Sikh agenda in fact it was created to counter the Hindu influence with the British.

You have to understand that both Sikhs and Hindus were well aware of what it means to live in an Islamic state. For you it seems that giving non-Muslims 2nd class status is fine but Sikhs and Hindus were not prepared to live as 2nd class citizens. You can argue that Jinnah had given assurances but what has Pakistan become in the last 60 years, is it the state that Jinnah envisioned? Be honest, the life of a dhimmi is not the life that any self respecting non-Muslim would want to live. As for the guarantees of the Hindus, the Sikhs had to chose between the devil and the deep blue sea. Their real objective of Khalistan was not taken seriously by the British mainly because it was not presented in the correct manner. Instead of a Sikh state being created out of the British districts it should have presented as an enlargement of Patiala and the other Sikh states.

But in the later period the Sikh leaders made it look like the "enemy of Sikhs". If there was a united Punjab in some sort of confederation with Pakistan then there probably wouldn't have been as much violence as there was. Jinnah apparently promised Sikhs a khalistan within Pakistan from Panipat to Nankana sahib through maharaja of Patiala who would have been this ruler of this presumed state but Tara Singh turned it down. Also the Hindus and Muslims in such a Punjab wouldn't have migrated because Sikh demands would have been satisfied and east Punjabi Hindus would have come under protection of Sikhs and east Punjabi Muslims under West Punjab etc.

In the offer that Jinnah made there was no provision for the Sikh state seceding from Pakistan. In the end the Sikhs rightly believed that the offer was just made in order that the Punjab would not be divided. The politics of unpartitioned Punjab would have been messy and it is very likely that there would have been a bloodbath much larger that 1947 when the Muslim leadership would have reverted back to form and started to treat the Sikhs and Hindus as dhimmis. Either that or the Muslim masses would have revolted if the status quo prior to 1947 had been maintained because they had been sold the Pakistan scheme as the takeover of the Sikhs lands and the businesses of the Hindus.

But constant overtures from league leaders were rejected by Tara singh and his likes who had this burning hatred for Muslims even though Congress betrayed them many times and the British were at best unreliable.

It was not a burning hatred of Muslims. Master Tara Singh and the other Sikh leaders were realists. They knew that Muslim rule meant that the non-Muslims would have 2nd class status. Your failure to understand the very real fears that non-Muslims have lead you to put this down to hatred of Muslims.

Tara singh was communal and anti democratic. if he was democratic then he should have agreed to the league mandate of 1946 elections. As the majority party it had a right to form the government. if you Sikhs had joined the coalition government then you would have had a greater clout for your demands. That's why the League started the agitations against the Congress-Union-Akali government .In 1 of these agitations Sikhs also protesting against Muslim league fired on the league marchers in Rawalpindi. From there clashes spread further ultimately resulting in the march violence of 1947. i agree Jinnah should have taken a stronger chance and spoken out in the march violence, visited camps of assured the Sikhs/Hindus of unity/ action against the perpetrators etc. However by then the Atmosphere was already communalised by the various leaders speeches /protests both Sikh and local Muslim leaguers. Plus the league was not at the centre in the government and dismissing the Congress- Unionist government was also a huge mistake made by the Punjab governor Evan Jenkins.

Evan Jenkins did not dismiss the Unionist govt. It was in the face of Muslim league agitation against the govt and the statement by the British govt to pass the rule to responsible hands that made Sir Khizr Tiwana give his resignation. The ML did not have the the required majority to stake a claim to form a government in Punjab (75 seats out of 175), They made tall claims about being supported by the Christian and an Anglo-Indian MLA but never proved this by showing the Punjab governor anything in writing from them to show their support. Had they shown majority support there was nothing stopping them forming the govt of Punjab.

So you agree that there was a Sikh plan to drive out Muslims from east Punjab? Thats exactly what i mean violence doesn't justify violence. Many Hindus/Sikhs wanted to stay on in West Punjab and many Muslims in the opposite direction. Why was there no major scale riot or ethnic cleansing of Hindu/Sikhs in Central/South Pak Punjab before August 1947. Its because many of the lands were rich and owned by the Sikhs/Hindus who did not want to leave. People were unsure of where the boundaries would be, if they were to continue living as before after partition. And many also thought that the violence in the cities would be temporary/die down and things would return to normal.

There was a Sikh plan just as there was a Muslim plan. The Sikh plan was to ensure the creation of a Sikh state but as this did not happen the next plan was that once partition boundaries had been announced then to evict the Muslims from East Punjab and hence ensure the creation of a Sikh majority area in East Punjab. The Muslim plan was to take over the lands and properties of the non-Muslims. Prior to the announcement of the partition boundary, over 500,000 Hindus and Sikhs had already moved from the Muslim majority districts to non-Muslims majority districts. There had been no such movement of Muslims in the opposite direction. According to Ishiaq Ahmed in his book this may have been one of the reasons why there was more Muslim deaths than non-Muslims deaths in 1947. So your comment about people not moving from West Punjab until August 1947 is not correct. The blueprint for the exchange of populations was already in place, it just needed the Sikhs to act to force the Muslims to move out of East Punjab.

Gandhi& Jinnah was deranged to think that violence could not happen. These 2 idiots further confused the masses by pleading with them to "stay in their homes" until it was too late and the chaos began. Ultimately though Had the Sikhs wanted then Punjab could have been saved from division, the ball was in your court. it maybe be extreme but the violence that you said could have been inflicted on the Muslims in East Punjab to ""settle the score"" around the same time of march 1947 perhaps would have woken up East Punjabi Muslims to the fact that the Sikhs were serious in their doing and better pack up now before you can etc etc.

You are right, Gandhi, Jinnah and Nehru all share the blame for giving the minorities caught in the wrong side of the partition line advice to stay put. It goes to the credit of the Sikh leadership that they had already accepted that an exchange of populations was already underway that they did not advise the Sikhs in West Punjab to stay put there.

[Genie Singh]

Porkistani bravery in world war displayed in the following conversation with British officer:

British officer to Porkistani: Jump

Porkistani: How high?

[tonyhp32]

So its very easy to identify Punjabi Pakistani Castes/Tribes in Pakistan army compared to Sikhs/pathans although i have followed that the indian army keenly promotes recruitment of Haryanvi Jatts who are basically Punjabi Hindus and of course who can forget the Great Gurkhas!... but then we have an equal match with our own Mountain troops "The Snow Leapords" NLI Regiment.

Haryanvi Jats are not Punjabis. They are ethnically the same as Sikh and Muslim Jats but they speak Hindi so they cannot be classed as Punjabi Hindus. In fact they would consider being called Punjabi Hindus as an insult as in their areas the Punjabi Hindu is typically a Lala shopkeeper. There are Punjabi Jats in Haryana, the most recent being the Sikh Jats from Sheikhupura settled in Karnal. The oldest Punjabi Jat setters are the Jat Sikhs of Sirsa and Fatehabad who settled the lands after the Bhatti Muslims lost their independence to Patiala state in the 1780s.

[kdsingh80]

Riaz Gujjar

If you consider Pakistani punjabi so brave then why Pak don't attack India directly instead of waging proxy war.In early 80s when Sikh Indian govt conflict was going on Indira Gandhi blamed Pakistan was planning atn attack on Indian Punjab to help sikhs, why didn't you attack India at that time ? may be with support of Sikhs you could had captured Indian punjab and Kashmir but you Pakistani Punjabi did not move out of your home.

Similarly you people call yourself greatest supporters of Kshmiri freedom fighters yet in 89-90 when Kashmiri's revolted in full scale you did not attack India.So stop trumpeting about your bravery. You just want to wage proxy war by killing innocent people like your Paki Kasab did in India.If you are brave just attack India directly or stop supporting Kashmiri Jihadi's

[Riaz Gujjar]

you keep coming back for more for some reasons.

Edited May 16, 2014 by Riaz Gujjar