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[Kulsingh5]

I like that.

I'd say as humans we do have some need for some sort of 'tribal identity' (in want of a better phrase), but the whole beauty of Sikhi for me is that it actually encourages you to transcend that. I think one of the great and immediately beneficial aspects of simran is to get a deeper insight into discreet processes that take place with the mind that effect human behaviour (the chattering ego). Then you start understanding yourself and others better. Thing is, religion so easily lends itself to egocentrism with notions of superiority and 'othering' outsiders that a person can very easily slip, and this is the cause of the wars - not religion.

It's like a scientific community deeming those who are less scientifically developed as them as infinitely lesser beings (like Europeans did Africans), and using this to justify all manner of abuses. It's ego. Ego naturally lends itself to supremacism; supremacism naturally lends itself to dehumanisation of the outsiders - this naturally leads to their abuse as it is mentally justified in the head of the abuser.

dalsingh101 - You are a prime example of a person who will discriminate, for goodness sake you are even discriminating in this post.

I'd say as humans we do have some need for some sort of 'tribal identity - What the f**K does this mean? and this It's like a scientific community deeming those who are less scientifically developed as them as infinitely lesser beings (like Europeans did Africans)

The Indian culture fuels on discrimination, caste is a prime example.

I think one of the great and immediately beneficial aspects of simran is to get a deeper insight into discreet processes that take place with the mind that effect human behaviour (the chattering ego).

You speak about Simran, The whole point of simran is to get away for the "I", do you actually understand "why" the reason for doing Simran?

Religion causes large majority of wars. Fair statement. You apparently think this is a dump statement. Why?

Edited December 15, 2014 by Kulsingh5

[dalsingh101]

I'd say as humans we do have some need for some sort of 'tribal identity - What the f**K does this mean?

Yeah, I didn't really finish that sentence so I get why you might be unclear on it:

What I was getting at was the reality of unprovoked, external aggression being directed towards the Sikh community: under these circumstances, (which Sikhs have experienced from a variety of sources over the centuries now), a form of tribalism (for want of a better word), is (sadly) necessary to fight back. So you saw it at partition, with SP against grooming/raping Pakistani gangs, against the British in the Anglo-Sikh wars. So basically I'm arguing that it is a natural reaction/response to tribalistic attacks from others, which are part and parcel of life. One big problem we have is the failure of Sikh men to act up to their role as defenders, which often emboldens others to attack. I think the grooming issue in the UK is a clear example of this.

Where (I feel) a lot of apnay get it wrong with tribalism is to jump into some caste tribalism or political tribalism that is bereft of ANY spiritual underpinnings, and try and pass that off as Sikh self-preservation.

and this It's like a scientific community deeming those who are less scientifically developed as them as infinitely lesser beings (like Europeans did Africans)

I was giving an example of war and aggression that is borne out of perceptions of racial differences rather than religion. Here differences in skin colour and technological advancement, leads one group to devalue the other. If you read older literature by Europeans about Africans you can see this abound. But don't get it twisted, it's a ubiquitous phenomena! You see it manifest between Sikhs towards Hindus, Hindus towards Sikhs, Jats towards Mazhbis, Pakistani Panjabis towards Indian Panjabis and so on.

In a nutshell, we have to revert to some form of tribalism for self-defence. Only those people who have no experience with real violence imagine otherwise. But I was stressing the beauty of Sikhi in that it doesn't imprison us in these constructs like many faiths (especially the Abrahamics). That being said, plenty of Sikhs do approach the faith in what looks like a solely tribal fashion.

You speak about Simran, The whole point of simran is to get away for the "I", do you actually understand "why" the reason for doing Simran?

I've given up doing simran for a particular set purpose right now, because that is where I'm at: I've heard that freeing yourself from presuppositions about the whole experience helps to advance. I'm doing simran for simrans sake and seeing where it leads me essentially.

Religion causes large majority of wars. Fair statement. You apparently think this is a dump [sic] statement. Why?

Because of exactly what I've stated (I think more clearly?) previously! Race causes war, nationalism has caused more war than religion in my opinion, greed for resources/women have caused wars - sure religions cause war but to make out like they are the sole or even main cause is stupid in my opinion. Don't forget that many times wars that appear to be religious have other more material causal factors behind them; like the current western (read modern Christian) war against 'Islam' which has a lot of underlying causes relating to the oil reserves in the middle-east.

Hope this clarifies.

PS - I think that some people who are 'anti-religion' often use the above statement about religion as if it is conclusive proof of religions inherent 'evil', I'm saying no, religion is not all bad and that major wars have been caused by much wider considerations than religion.

Edited December 15, 2014 by dalsingh101

[SikhKhoj]

DalSingh showing complete ignorance about Bhai Mardana being a Muslim.

[shastarsewak]

;

Edited May 17, 2015 by shastarsewak

[CdnSikhGirl]

The way I have always understood Hinduism (and correct me if I am wrong) is that there is only actually one God "Brahma" and the rest.. the Avatars are all just 'ideas' put into a visual form to help with meditation etc. Not that they were actual real dieties. This was how a Hindu friend actually explained it... so in that sense they are also monotheistic. They aren't worshipping many separate dieties, as the different avatars are all just visual representations of the different aspects of one creation / nature.

For example, Lakshmi is the concept of love / wealth / prosperity... the good rewards in life summed up in a single concept or idea. Many different spiritual paths believe that if you focus on something then it will cone true. (See the book the secret...about power of visualization and true stories). So if you have a visual concept for these things, then you can better focus on manifesting them in your life.

This could be way off... I am just going by what someone told me who is Hindu. But if it's true... there is no need to speak rudely of them. Its just a different method to meditate and connect with the divine. I respect all paths to the truth. Not necessarily the dogma that goes along with them.

[jaikaara]

The Vedas speak of One Nirankaar Paarbrahm and not of Brahma ..most Hindus do not read or even refer to the Vedas.

The situation now is..Sanatan Dharam got split and the attitude of people also changed, instead of sadhana they focus on deities and keep changing / adding them based on what mythological stories they get to hear .

The entire purpose to worship has become benefit oriented.

In the pinds of Punjab nothing is different ..going to mazars or graves of muslim pirs is a part of many Sikh families daily worship.

The way I have always understood Hinduism (and correct me if I am wrong) is that there is only actually one God "Brahma" and the rest.. the Avatars are all just 'ideas' put into a visual form to help with meditation etc. Not that they were actual real dieties. This was how a Hindu friend actually explained it... so in that sense they are also monotheistic. They aren't worshipping many separate dieties, as the different avatars are all just visual representations of the different aspects of one creation / nature.

For example, Lakshmi is the concept of love / wealth / prosperity... the good rewards in life summed up in a single concept or idea. Many different spiritual paths believe that if you focus on something then it will cone true. (See the book the secret...about power of visualization and true stories). So if you have a visual concept for these things, then you can better focus on manifesting them in your life.

This could be way off... I am just going by what someone told me who is Hindu. But if it's true... there is no need to speak rudely of them. Its just a different method to meditate and connect with the divine. I respect all paths to the truth. Not necessarily the dogma that goes along with them.

[BhagatSingh]

The word Parbrahm actually comes from the the word Brahma.

Brahma

What we call "One Nirankaar Paarbrahm" today, is what another religion called Brahma. The followers of this religion, of Brahma, eventually died out, but the ideas present in their religion lived on and were assimilated into newer religions such as Vaishavism, where Brahma (the almighty formless creator) was said to have been created by Vishnu. He spawns from Vishnu's navel and gives birth to the universe. In Vaishnavism, Vishnu is the almighty formless creator.
Varaha the upholder of earth (living beings, existence, etc) before was considered an avatar of Brahma, later considered the avatar of Vishnu.

And before that Varaha was probably worshipped as the almighty formless creator by some ancient tribe or something.

And before that it may have been something else.

So these forms evolve and change.

Today Hinduism, isn't a religion, it's an umbrella term for all Indian religions, different paradigms and ways of thinking. There are many traditions within it. Some religions have died out, some have survived, new ones have emerged. The ideas appear again and again through different religions.

Whenever you get a mix of religions, the general public just goes to all of the events and festivals. The average person is not very religious so they are not focused on anything, they are simply there for enjoyment. It's as if a buffet of spirituality is laid out and they load up their plates, with little of each. This is not just true in India but also in the west and other countries. It happens wherever several religions accumulate.

[Guest]

Interesting posts, but I may have to move off-topics into new thread itself.