Quality Of This Forum Is Paramount..!

[Guest]

For past many years, Sikhawareness has been a beacon for freedom of speech, freedom of expression and celebration of different diverse cultures/religion in cyber sikh world. We have no intention of changing that but with that being said, there is clear difference between freedom of speech, freedom of expression and abusing freedom of speech, trolling the forum, deliberately provoking argument from one thread to another, insulting members, other religious figures or attacking demi gods etc etc. We can bear all forms of debates even heated debates but basic civility has to be kept. We hope members ask themselves while writing - are they crossing the line?. Here is what we would like to acheive ideally.

We are all guilty of debating or discussing outside of gursikh principles ((which includes me of course), just wanted to take this chance to post sakhi from Sri Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji updesh to pandits on discussion/debates and what's allowed for Gursikhs.

Four types of Conversations/discussion-

1) Heth - Where you listen to someone because you know they have more kamai and more knowledge than you. You are humble when listening. This also applies to school.

2) Vaadha - Where you actually do your research and share to positively add to a conversation constructively. Even if there is disagreement, you should not hurt another's feelings or prove that you are better.

3) Jalapa - Where you say stuff to put the other down. Try to make yourself look good.

4) Vitaardha - Where you keep talking and don't listen to anyone else (the majority of us).

*** This is from a sakhi where some pundits asked Guru Hargobind Ji what type of conversations are allowed. Guru Hargobind Ji said a Gursikh only takes part in the first 2 types of conversations. ***

Or if you would like to see things from western angle:

Just look at western leaders/politicians in real life from two opposite side of spectrums with two polar opposite idealogy debate, how gracefully they debate the issues and still have basic respect for one another.

We have already started a new intiative to ensure, we have put two members- kharku aka- starchpagg47 and jungchumkaur under quality control temporary until their mend their ways following basic civil tone and keeping close eye on other members who are very close to crossing fine line- Maintaing quality of this forum is paramount.

[BhagatSingh]

Thank you N30! Finally! I am glad you made this post. I think you should be more strict with regards to these rules.

Where are your mods anyway? How're you going to do this all by yourself?

[hsingh89633]

THANK YOU FINALLY!!

I used to spend alot of time on this forum now all it is a argument between hindus and sikhs... Its ruining the forum....

[BhagatSingh]

Yeah. It's not even high-quality argument between Hindus and Sikhs. It's just shitty, one-liners and quotes and insults being fired at each other.

Nobody gets anything out of it. It's just garbage being flung back and forth.

[amar_jkp]

Everything was good till Hindu fanatics were allowed to write anything.

[DSG]

Hi Good point

I think you will get especially on forums people from "all different backgrounds" , people who want to learn, debate, argue , score points etc.. We should be armed with knowledge and not shy away from answering such questions, with facts so that any questions be them good or bad can be backed up by "resources" especially when it comes to Sikhi.

I still think there should be one central location where such documents can be obtained easily like a repository, we all then "sing" from the same sheet as they say regardless of which site/forum an individual is part of.

[chatanga1]

Everything was good till Hindu fanatics were allowed to write anything.

Agree totally. The atmosphere of intelligent debate and learning has gone ever since a couple of members joined and sullied the forum with their agenda.

[jaikaara]

With your favorite pet talking shit about hindu devte you could find only these two to single out ...outright shit language was used and thats when i lost it ..if they use this language for the Gurus ? we wont like to be paid in the same coin ...then at least give that a thought ..besides your silence there were others watching the fun and cheering your doggy...

For past many years, Sikhawareness has been a beacon for freedom of speech, freedom of expression and celebration of different diverse cultures/religion in cyber sikh world. We have no intention of changing that but with that being said, there is clear difference between freedom of speech, freedom of expression and abusing freedom of speech, trolling the forum, deliberately provoking argument from one thread to another, insulting members, other religious figures or attacking demi gods etc etc. We can bear all forms of debates even heated debates but basic civility has to be kept. We hope members ask themselves while writing - are they crossing the line?. Here is what we would like to acheive ideally.

We are all guilty of debating or discussing outside of gursikh principles ((which includes me of course), just wanted to take this chance to post sakhi from Sri Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji updesh to pandits on discussion/debates and what's allowed for Gursikhs.

Or if you would like to see things from western angle:

Just look at western leaders/politicians in real life from two opposite side of spectrums with two polar opposite idealogy debate, how gracefully they debate the issues and still have basic respect for one another.

We have already started a new intiative to ensure, we have put two members- kharku and jungchumkaur under quality control temporary until their mend their ways following basic civil tone and keeping close eye on other members who are very close to crossing fine line- Maintaing quality of this forum is paramount.

[Guest]

Warnings were given and going fwd will put them on quality control moderation list.

[jaikaara]

Brother ..this one forum was something what i wanted to visit in every break i would get at work since it had intelligent content ..but now its like a sunken feeling of why i am here ..your posts were and will be inspiring ..i am not sure why you giving that guy so much of freedom..but always remember shit thrown will come back ..

Warnings were given and going fwd will put them on quality control moderation list.

[jaikaara]

He is one open face ..others hidden ..i repent why i even extended my hands for friendship with them..your tolerance towards this doggy will always be under suspicion.

[Guest]

Moderation is one job damned if you do, damned if you don't. So we are trying to strike a right balance.

[jaikaara]

My good wishes to you bro...i hope you get the journey back on track..we are all in the same caravan..

Moderation is one job damned if you do, damned if you don't. So we are trying to strike a right balance.

[Saroj Bahl]

There r lots of athiests here who dont have beleive in god... cos if their was god then this world will not be so bad.

It is religions that cause wars and problems cos they man made.... no one can see god so he cant be there?

Edited November 15, 2014 by Saroj Bahl

[dalsingh101]

It is religions that cause wars and problems cos they man made

Racial differences have caused wars. Coveting resources of another nation has caused most wars. Man's need to dominate has caused war. Wanting possession of another communities women has caused wars. Theological differences in governance has caused wars (look at democracy versus communism). Anger at the government has caused civil wars. Anger at an over-privileged aristocracy has caused civil wars; so to simplify matters to: "It is religions that cause wars and problems "

Is dumb. Sometimes when you are outnumbered and out-resourced by a larger enemy it is religion that can help you to overcome the heavy odds aligned against you.

[Saroj Bahl]

Then why do people always say there religion is better then yours? Why tell people to change there religion? religions cause wars too cos they r all man made.

Edited November 15, 2014 by Saroj Bahl

[dalsingh101]

Then why do people always say there religion is better then yours?

People don't always say their religion is better than yours: the biggest culprits of this are the Abrahamic religions. If Sikhs started doing this, it was probably after they got influenced by their white masters after annexation with all that Victorian Protestant bullshit (which, we should all note, Anglos have since jettisoned en masse!)

The Sikh position on what the best religion is is explicitly expounded, even if over politicised peasant Sikhs don't get it:

Why tell people to change there religion?

Again, this stems mainly from middle-eastern religions and their European manifestations. Guru Nanak had a life long friendship with Bhai Mardana who never changed his faith. There are many examples of the Gurus having positive relationships with nonSikhs and not trying to convert them.

religions cause wars too cos they r all man made.

Sure religions can cause wars, but as I alluded to in my previous post religion is one of MANY factors which can cause wars. Don't just focus on one cause because it fits your theory and ignore all the other historical facts.

Did religion cause world war 1? No, it was a political assassination.

Did religion cause world war 2? No, it was Hitler coveting English imperialism and wanting to establish a German nationalistic equivalent underlined by racial assumptions.

Was it religion or nationalism that made America drop 2 nuclear bombs on Japan?

Edited November 15, 2014 by dalsingh101

[Saroj Bahl]

Interesting..but beleiving in god is not very easy..

Edited November 15, 2014 by Saroj Bahl

[dalsingh101]

Interesting..but beleiving in god is not very easy.

Well maybe if you imagine God to be some giant human like entity with human like emotions yes.

If you see a creator, destroyer, sustainer (rolled in one), formless, unbelievably powerful and creative entity as the source of all of what is around you, who doesn't have human-like emotions or thought - maybe it might get easier?

[Saroj Bahl]

Budhists dont beleive in god and yet have lamas beleiving in higher mind and all.

Edited November 15, 2014 by Saroj Bahl

[harsharan000]

Then why do people always say there religion is better then yours? Why tell people to change there religion? religions cause wars too cos they r all man made.

Dear Saroj Bahl,

this is true what you say.

People do all that you have mentioned, simply because they do not follow Gurmat as per Bani.

The Bani says: there is only one Truth, Wahiguru (Ik Onkar, Satnam). And the way to meet and merge in Him, is through His Simran alone, no other way.

But then too we manmukhs do many many other things which we see them being done since we were born...Nobody stops to see and check if they are acting and behaving as per the very principles of Gurmat .....

So naturally, we have gone astray, and stepped deep in the manmukhta and maya, taking our beliefs as truth, that is why, there is so much hatred and violence.... If only some wadbhageee could read, understand and follow Gurmat truly, believe me, there would be no such abnormal situations....

But unfortunately, as long as this creation goes on, these stupid things will continue to happen. Because this creation is imperfect, and if has to continue, these things will continue happening.

You want to get true happiness and peace? Just step out from this bhavsagar and reach Parbraham, then you will experience these Truths of Love, Mercy and Grace of Wahiguru....

We are foolish people, we did not spare even Guru Sahibans , Mahapurukhs, like Christ or Sachay Patshah Guru Arjun Dev Maharaj...

And even today we continue abusing such noble and humble souls....foolish human beings.

We are more in love with the jewel boxes(religions), which have no real value by themselves, and are just as good as decorations only, and on the contrary, we ignore the real valuable Jewel of Nam or Shabad within us....

Sat Sree Akal.

Edited November 16, 2014 by harsharan000

[dalsingh101]

We are more in love with the jewel boxes(religions), which have no real value by themselves, and are just as good as decorations only, and on the contrary, we ignore the real valuable Jewel of Nam or Shabad within us....

I like that.

I'd say as humans we do have some need for some sort of 'tribal identity' (in want of a better phrase), but the whole beauty of Sikhi for me is that it actually encourages you to transcend that. I think one of the great and immediately beneficial aspects of simran is to get a deeper insight into discreet processes that take place with the mind that effect human behaviour (the chattering ego). Then you start understanding yourself and others better. Thing is, religion so easily lends itself to egocentrism with notions of superiority and 'othering' outsiders that a person can very easily slip, and this is the cause of the wars - not religion.

It's like a scientific community deeming those who are less scientifically developed as them as infinitely lesser beings (like Europeans did Africans), and using this to justify all manner of abuses. It's ego. Ego naturally lends itself to supremacism; supremacism naturally lends itself to dehumanisation of the outsiders - this naturally leads to their abuse as it is mentally justified in the head of the abuser.

Edited November 15, 2014 by dalsingh101

[Saroj Bahl]

Dear Saroj Bahl,

this is true what you say.

People do all that you have mentioned, simply because they do not follow Gurmat as per Bani.

The Bani says: there is only one Truth, Wahiguru (Ik Onkar, Satnam). And the way to meet and merge in Him, is through His Simran alone, no other way.

But then too we manmukhs do many many other thigs which we see them being done since we were born...Nobody stops to see and check if they are acting and behaving as per the very principles of Gurmat .....

So naturally, we have gone astray, and stepped deep in the manmukhta and maya, taking our beliefs as truth, that is why, there is so much hatred and violence.... If only some wadbhageee could read, understand and follow Gurmat truly, believe me, there would be no such abnormal situations....

But unfortunately, as long as this creation goes on, these stupid things will continue to happen. Because this creation is imperfect, and if has to continue, these things will continue happening.

You want to get true happiness and peace? Just step out from this bhavsagar and reach Parbraham, then you will experience these Truths of Love, Mercy and Grace of Wahiguru....

We are foolish people, we did not spare even Guru Sahibans , Mahapurukhs, like Christ or Sachay Patshah Guru Arjun Dev Maharaj...

And even today we continue abusing such noble and humble souls....foolish human beings.

We are more in love with the jewel boxes(religions), which have no real value by themselves, and are just as good as decorations only, and on the contrary, we ignore the real valuable Jewel of Nam or Shabad within us....

Sat Sree Akal.

Very nice post..interesting.

[harsharan000]

Why tell people to change there religion?

Religions cause wars too, cos they r all man made.

To answer these your questions, let us first see what does the word religion mean.

The word religion, comes from the latin word "religare". Which means, that what unites you to your origin. I

In our case as souls in human form, means to reunite our souls, or merge our souls in Wahiguru Akal Purukh.

Only that jugtee, or practice, which can make possible, that merging in Him, can be undoubtley called religion therefore.

As per the Bani, there is nothing as such which can do so, except only one method, as instructed by our Guru Sahibans.

That method is very simple. But people, because of its simplicity, fail to take it as true. Though they do not voice it out, but there deep in their minds, they refuse to accept it. And from there on, starts "maanmat" .

And there where is maanmat, means, problems, discrepancies, disputes, hatred, hot arguments, killings, suicides are sure to arise and take place.....

You see, our Guru Sahibans are the embodiment of True wisdom or gyan. Their gyan is perfect, there are no mistakes in their statements, because whatever they utter, is because, Wahiguru Himself speaks through them.

That is when the Bani says: Prabh jee baseh, Sadh ke hirdey. Prabh Jee baseh, Sadh kee rasna.

They have given it in written to us, the method by which we can practice religion in the true sense, and become one with Him.

If we read thier Bani or listen to it, in each Ang of it, they constantly mention it again and again....

But we donkeys, do not pay attention to their words, and try to implement our additions and manipulations to their Bani, just to suit our egos ....

So naturally, instead to become nearer and nearer to Wahiguru, we, by our maanmat ways, get farther and farther from Him.... then too we proudly say we are sikhs....shame on us

You see, sikhee is not difficult at all. It is we who have distorted their teachings, and made a false identity for ourselves. That too, when Sikhee, is just for dissolving our ego, become purer and merge in Him. This is sikhee, and is the real purpose of our beloved Guru Sahibans, and all true Bhagats and Gurmukhs, being them from any place or any time; but as Wahiguru, that Supreme power is one, so naturally the method in merging in Him, has to be one.... It can not be, different for diffrent races, castes or creeds, which are all outer layers, and there is no reality in them.

Our true essence is our Soul consciousness, that ray of Jot of Wahiguru.

So naturally, it is that ray of His Jot, which returns and merges back at the end of the day in the Supreme Jot Wahiguru. Our realtion with Him, is like that of a drop with the ocean, like that of a ray with the Sun.... it is a pure spiritual relation, not a bodily one, or a physical one.

So going back to your questions above, no true Gurmukh will ever tell you to stop the relgion or the customs, of the place of your origin. Because all these outer aspects are related to the body, not to the mind or soul.

For example, the robber changes his outward attire, to rob and commit his sins. But we all know, the evil is in the mind, not in the dresses or body, because if it was so, by changing his attire or appearnce, his personality and nature has not changed....

So you see, Guru Sahibans or true Gurmukhs, will never ever tell you to stop your relations with your family, friends or stop practicing the customs of the culture we are born in, neither will they ever engage/ enchain you in new customs or rituals...that is not their purpose.

They just come here to our level, to remind us of our true spiritual nature, and tell us that we as souls, are here as aliens in this creation, our True Father, is Satnam, our True desh,is Sach Khand, and that, all our miseries are due for being away from Him.

They also sing His glories/ Bani, to just kindle His love in our hearts for His Lotus Feet, and generate a genuine longing to go back and merge in Him.

So now here comes the answer to the question of what is true religion.

As we saw above, we cleared it, that religion is to named only to that activity or process, by which a soul, independent of its caste, creed or colour, can merge its soul consciousness in that Super Consciousness, or call it Wahiguru.....

And that jugtee which is repeated again and again in the Bani, by our Guru Sahibans, is His Simran alone.

They have made it very clear for us foolish people, by giving it written for all times and places, be it past, present or future, and their words are eternal, that whosoever follows this their commandment, shall merge and become one with Him, thus fulfill their purpose of human life/birth.

They say: Jin Har japeeya, se Har hoeeya. These are their golden words, which are a Treasure beyond measure ....

And these words mean: He whosoever repeats His Name, shall merge in Him, and become one with Him.

Just give a little thought to these their words and look them again and again, the soul just rejoices and dances in ecstacy, that, that Lord which is Nirankar and Anamee, is realized by this simple techinque , by mugahds, manmukhs, moorakhs, and paapees.... like the most of us are.

All this is nothing, but His utter Grace and Love for us, that He came at our level as Guru Sahibans and Gurmukhs and made Himself available to us, which would be quite impossible otherwise....

Waheguruuuuuuu, Waheguruuuuu.....

Edited November 18, 2014 by harsharan000

[Saroj Bahl]

very inspiring and interesting post....i like it.

Edited November 17, 2014 by Saroj Bahl