Woman As Guru

[Liv]

1 hour ago, jaikaara said:

you have all the time to do your flowery decoration with your words, so  please go ahead. The logic i gave was simple enough to understand, at every point a person who is different than other human beings will want to acquire a special status in the Panth , i should in fact say they want to just open the Pandora's box and distract the Panth.

Thank you my dear!  I'll take that as a gracious compliment you offer:  "flowery decoration with my words"  -- was this your attempt at "daya" ? Would you prefer I use more simple language? I apologise if my words offended you. 

Here I will try again given your esteemed and most respectful feedback in the spirit of unity of the Panth! 

The logic you offered was most simple indeed - we are in complete agreement on that - but the issue here is that it may just be too simple as it implied judgement and hate towards members of humanity (by the way who are all sacred to my Guru): these human beings are diverse and varied, human beings may include women, people who identify and are gay and/or transexuals. I understood what you were saying very well. So well that I felt compelled to speak up and ask you to clarify. I put it to you that your comments are in contradiction to the very Panth's unity you espouse to be advocating for. I am asking you to reflect and have another try. This will be helpful not only to you but to us all, in the spirit of unity. 

Try to spend less time worrying about what others are doing (i.e. Pandora's box is not in Guru Granth Sahib Ji so fear not! ..) and distraction of the Panth.. ah...  perhaps self-reflect on your own use of words and capacity, in fact, to be that same distraction?

I will give you a Guru reference to assist my words: "Aval Allah Noor Upayia Kudrat Kay sabh bandeh, ek noor teh sab jag upajaiya kaun bhaleh ko mandehy?" - In deep remembrance of my 9th Guru who gave his head for the right for others to maintain their freedom of choice... lest we forget! We must remain as one and that includes considering all of humanity as one. There is no room for judgement in the house of my Guru. I consider this page my Guru's house - with respect. 

God is One! Please, do try again. Please remember to include direct references to the Guru this time - if you aren't sure, please ask someone to teach you - you might want to start on Page 1 of Guru Granth Sahib JI..... the only living energy we listen to as a unified Panth as we are all but learning and we ALL make mistakes..... and sibling of the Panth! Just like me, you are but a Servant of. 

I look forward to your response. 

Waheguru!

[jaikaara]

9 minutes ago, Liv said:

Thank you my dear!  I'll take that as a gracious compliment you offer:  "flowery decoration with my words"  -- was this your attempt at "daya" ? Would you prefer I use more simple language? I apologise if my words offended you. 

Here I will try again given your esteemed and most respectful feedback in the spirit of unity of the Panth! 

The logic you offered was most simple indeed - we are in complete agreement on that - but the issue here is that it may just be too simple as it implied judgement and hate towards members of humanity (by the way who are all sacred to my Guru): these human beings are diverse and varied, human beings may include women, people who identify and are gay and/or transexuals. I understood what you were saying very well. So well that I felt compelled to speak up and ask you to clarify. I put it to you that your comments are in contradiction to the very Panth's unity you espouse to be advocating for. I am asking you to reflect and have another try. This will be helpful not only to you but to us all, in the spirit of unity. 

Try to spend less time worrying about what others are doing (i.e. Pandora's box is not in Guru Granth Sahib Ji so fear not! ..) and distraction of the Panth.. ah...  perhaps self-reflect on your own use of words and capacity, in fact, to be that same distraction?

I will give you a Guru reference to assist my words: "Aval Allah Noor Upayia Kudrat Kay sabh bandeh, ek noor teh sab jag upajaiya kaun bhaleh ko mandehy?" - In deep remembrance of my 9th Guru who gave his head for the right for others to maintain their freedom of choice... lest we forget! We must remain as one and that includes considering all of humanity as one. There is no room for judgement in the house of my Guru. I consider this page my Guru's house - with respect. 

God is One! Please, do try again. Please remember to include direct references to the Guru this time - if you aren't sure, please ask someone to teach you - you might want to start on Page 1 of Guru Granth Sahib JI..... the only living energy we listen to as a unified Panth as we are all but learning and we ALL make mistakes..... and sibling of the Panth! Just like me, you are but a Servant of. 

I look forward to your response. 

Waheguru!

So then go and tell your local Gurdwara committee to appoint Granthis and Ragis whose orientations are different, do you think they will agree? Agreed with you all humanity is one, i respect people individually as one mankind but to lead the congregation it is general mindset that sangat in general will not want complications. That lady who's grown a beard can you then have her lead the sangat ? Talking big and ideal is all good try things practically.

[Liv]

 

may waheguru be with us all-  ek ongkaar - peace out

[Liv]

52 minutes ago, jaikaara said:

So then go and tell your local Gurdwara committee to appoint Granthis and Ragis whose orientations are different, do you think they will agree? Agreed with you all humanity is one, i respect people individually as one mankind but to lead the congregation it is general mindset that sangat in general will not want complications. That lady who's grown a beard can you then have her lead the sangat ? Talking big and ideal is all good try things practically.

I'm confused... I've seen plenty of women leading congregations who have a beard (some facial hair)... so why is this so revolutionary and difficult to achieve... and the sexual orientation of any granthi or ragi is ... surely none of anyone's business ? people do seva as they are skilled to do based on their knowledge and service of Gurbani and kirtan - to be prejudiced otherwise would seem odd and un-sikh like. 

I don't go and tell anyone to do anything !  It's good Karma   Good luck to you -- still no Gurbani reference..... try again.... I do have a lot of patience. Anything for a Brother... !

[Liv]

7 minutes ago, Liv said:

I'm confused... I've seen plenty of women leading congregations who have a beard (some facial hair)... so why is this so revolutionary and difficult to achieve... and the sexual orientation of any granthi or ragi is ... surely none of anyone's business ? people do seva as they are skilled to do based on their knowledge and service of Gurbani and kirtan - to be prejudiced otherwise would seem odd and un-sikh like. 

I don't go and tell anyone to do anything !  It's good Karma   Good luck to you -- still no Gurbani reference..... try again.... I do have a lot of patience. Anything for a Brother... !

On the other hand -- the best reflection is done internally - so all the best to you and .... best wishes dude. See you round the traps sometime eh?

[jaikaara]

16 hours ago, Liv said:

On the other hand -- the best reflection is done internally - so all the best to you and .... best wishes dude. See you round the traps sometime eh?

 

16 hours ago, Liv said:

I'm confused... I've seen plenty of women leading congregations who have a beard (some facial hair)... so why is this so revolutionary and difficult to achieve... and the sexual orientation of any granthi or ragi is ... surely none of anyone's business ? people do seva as they are skilled to do based on their knowledge and service of Gurbani and kirtan - to be prejudiced otherwise would seem odd and un-sikh like. 

I don't go and tell anyone to do anything !  It's good Karma   Good luck to you -- still no Gurbani reference..... try again.... I do have a lot of patience. Anything for a Brother... !

Some facial hair is understood but have you seen that woman with a full beard ? Orientation becomes a point when things which are not straight start getting difficult . From your mindset i know you want to paint yourself goodie goodie. Thats okay for you but not for others in the sangat. So when you practically cannot go and explain to your local committee you want to  waste people's time here.

" I dont go and tell anyone to do anything "  why ??? then how come you come here to give your love for humanity ? because you know someone is not going to hit you hard on your face  for all your 'opinion'  here on SA!!!

Go and show your patience to your local committee with such thoughts and i am sure they will patiently paint you red !

Go on like a nagging housewife who's got nothing to do in the afternoon !

[tva prasad]

6 hours ago, jaikaara said:

Go on like a nagging housewife who's got nothing to do in the afternoon !

housewives have plenty to do.

[jaikaara]

30 minutes ago, tva prasad said:

housewives have plenty to do.

Oh yea ! then should i replace it with mistress !

[Liv]

10 hours ago, jaikaara said:

Oh yea ! then should i replace it with mistress !

I like your smiley icon. Keep smiling ok? ? Spirituality is Joy and warmth and happiness. Take care my Brother. 

"Hum nahi changeh, burahh nahi koe" 

[Liv]

10 hours ago, tva prasad said:

housewives have plenty to do.

Yes I imagine they would! Good one! ??

[Liv]

On 16/12/2016 at 3:06 AM, jaikaara said:

 

Some facial hair is understood but have you seen that woman with a full beard ? Orientation becomes a point when things which are not straight start getting difficult . From your mindset i know you want to paint yourself goodie goodie. Thats okay for you but not for others in the sangat. So when you practically cannot go and explain to your local committee you want to  waste people's time here.

" I dont go and tell anyone to do anything "  why ??? then how come you come here to give your love for humanity ? because you know someone is not going to hit you hard on your face  for all your 'opinion'  here on SA!!!

Go and show your patience to your local committee with such thoughts and i am sure they will patiently paint you red !

Go on like a nagging housewife who's got nothing to do in the afternoon !

It is my duty to give my love for humanity everywhere-- surely I am welcomed here-- Sikhs welcome all -- always ?? 

Surely you didn't actually intend to imply a physical threat of harm to my person online in print? This is illegal under law as well as in breach of the standards under which this forum has been established? 

Hmm .... most unusual of behaviour! 

I am therefore going to assume you aren't feeling good in some way or that something I've said has triggered a negative feeling.... 

Okay so was it the women and beards thing? If a woman did have a larger beard as she did not cut or remove hair which is sacred to her spirituality why should she not lead a sangat? Isn't she just simply following the path of the Guru? 

I do not mind other people's business re: their personal life or sexuality-- I choose to love and respect all. 

I am here because this forum said it was a place to discuss and learn more about Gursikhi. On this forum everyone has an equal right to discuss and share views. 

We can all learn to love each other and yet disagree (respectfully please without threats to physically or actually attack-- Sikhs are not permitted to attack anyone only ever compassionately Defend!) 

I do love you as a fellow human and it is my right to do so! 

I shared my thoughts but may have come across as condescending and rude. ? Sorry. 

I have very cooperative, fruitful, loving relationships at Gurdwaras -- its easy to when you are just a sewak "hum kookar tere darbaar!" Guruji's home is for all. All humanity. 

Ardaaas. Bhul chuk maaf. 

Please do not threaten me or anyone else with physical trauma again. ??

[Liv]

On 15/12/2016 at 7:33 PM, Liv said:

The only bhramgyani is waheguru 

If you read Gurbani you will see how our Gurujis wrote gurbani with loving devotion as like the bride of the Supreme Guru (mahels of waheguru) -- (the Supreme is only ever Waheguru) - a male does not "represent" God in the world anymore than a female "represent" God. God represents God and is antarjaami! Both within creation but also separate! Guru Nanak says we can't even begin to fathom the Grace! We see Waheguru everywhere! We are all children of Waheguru therefore poetically, figuratively speaking, all also like 'Brides' of our supreme Husband (this is an analogy-- like many other analogies in Gurbani) If you find it confronting to think of your Waheguru as your Husband its all good! Waheguru is represented as BOTH male and female in Gurbani ! So this connection can be as you wish .... imagine as your Supreme Goddess ?? Like your  Mataji "puta, maata ki asees!" ❤️

Whatever or however it works for you in Naam Dhiirr -- to connect to your higher self within. best wishes and much warmth! ? Have a wonderful happy day !!

[Liv]

10 hours ago, jaikaara said:

Oh yea ! then should i replace it with mistress !

I don't understand what you mean - a mistress implies a slave. I am not a slave to anyone whether I am a man or woman!

A Gursikh is only a slave to Master Waheguru ?? 

Not just 50 shades mind you, of the infinite, supremely gorgeous, kind, benevolent variety ? I am a slave to my Guru and Waheguru. Only. 

Please do not call me or anyone else a Mistress again. 

[Liv]

On 17/12/2014 at 6:13 AM, CdnSikhGirl said:

I have to disagree with you BhagatSingh Ji... about women not being as spiritual or meditating etc. I think it's just that women have not felt the need to speak openly about it as much, or if they did, they were held back from doing so for fear of not being taken seriously in a society that saw women as lower spiritually then men. I think both gender equally have the same capacity for spiritual awareness and awakening.

 

I think the Gurus being male was more because of society at that time would never have taken women seriously, and women being uplifted to equal status, the ideal had to come from men.

 

Besides I think there are far more Sants who were female than we will ever know, but since they were not written about like the men, and because women usually do not feel the need to parade around stating to everyone that they are, they were kind of lost in history.

 

I have talked personally to far more women who have had natural spiritual experiences (without even trying) than men who have.

The only sant is waheguru ?? the rest of humanity is here to learn 

be very wary of ANY human who declares themselves more spiritual or evolved than others!! ?? It is an unfortunate sign of ego (haumai) and one should not trust the awful lens of haumai in ego -- it leads to oppression such as patriarchy, matriarchy or indeed misogyny (or misandry! -- the alternative to hating women is hating men! How could one hate avatars of waheguru? at the same time how could men hate women avatars of waheguru? ) to think yourself above another is an error (we all do it - no one is immune or we would be god and we are not God! Only God is God but God is simultaneously within) Its a paradox! A beautiful balance we strike to walk the true path of Gursikhi...... we all have and we are all at risk of falling down that rabbit hole like Alice.... the theives in Gurbani always waiting 

(kaam - lust Krodh - anger Lobh -greed moh -attachment ahankaar - pride! (this can be excessive pride of anything -- including -- "spirituality") 

If you take a step back and look it we are all making these mistakes everyday arent we? Spirituality isnt the body! That along with the things that make us biologically humans will perish as death finds us all ??

We all look the same when burning on that funeral pyre - Waheguru is the only Superior anything and all we take when we go is...... 

Naam simran saves us all ?

May God bless us all. Its not a competition! Pray we all make it. Pray for me, please! 

 

 

 

[paapiman]

1 hour ago, Liv said:

The only sant is waheguru ?? the rest of humanity is here to learn 

Don't insult the Almighty Lord, Waheguru jee, by calling him a mere saint. The Lord can transform countless sinners/criminals into great Saints.

He is not a Saint, but the master of all Saints.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[tva prasad]

Just now, paapiman said:

Don't insult the Almighty Lord, Waheguru jee, by calling him a mere saint. The Lord can transform countless sinners/criminals into great Saints.

He is not a Saint, but the master of all Saints.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

saints r not mere humans. Brahmgiani r also called saints, there is no difference between brahmgiani and vaheguru. Just like a drop of water merges in the ocean and there is no difference at all any more.

[Lucky]

9 hours ago, tva prasad said:

saints r not mere humans. Brahmgiani r also called saints, there is no difference between brahmgiani and vaheguru. Just like a drop of water merges in the ocean and there is no difference at all any more.

I thought there were some differences between sant and brahmgyani?  Will try checking with gurbani when I get a chance.

[tva prasad]

1 hour ago, Lucky said:

I thought there were some differences between sant and brahmgyani?  Will try checking with gurbani when I get a chance.

I think they r. Many brahmgianis r called sants. Sant isn't just brahmgiani many high avastha gursikhs can be called sant (when I say high avastha I mean ones with dasm dwar open).

so, not all sants r brahmgianis but all brahmgianis r sants.

[Liv]

On 12/18/2016 at 10:42 AM, paapiman said:

Don't insult the Almighty Lord, Waheguru jee, by calling him a mere saint. The Lord can transform countless sinners/criminals into great Saints.

He is not a Saint, but the master of all Saints.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Waheguru Ji - I apologise if I came across as Insulting. It was certainly not my intent. Thank you - we are in agreement that Waheguru is Master of all Saints. 

Please allow me to elaborate and be specific to Guru Ji and not just rely on my one statement (opinion): 

From Salok M9: Tenth Master - Guru Tegh Bahadur Maharaj Ji's baani - within the only Guru for a Gursikh to follow now and forever: Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj 

"Vemukh hoe Ram te lan janam vijog, khin meh kaure hoe gae jitare maia bhhog."

The non-believers in the Omnipresent Lord suffer separation from him, birth after birth. In an instant all the pleasures of wealth become bitter! 

Vich na koi kar sakai kis thai roveh joj" ? "Kita Kichu na havai likhia dhur sanjog" 

For them none can play the role of an intermediary. Before whom shall they daily bewail? 

The true sant is Waheguru. Even Guru Nanak Dev ji himself! declares himself as "Kaho Nanak Sab Teri Vadhiaayi, Koi Naon Na Jaahneh Meraah!" 

Wahguru! The exalted King Guru speaks! (bow to the sacred word to the living light that is now the eternal light for us all......) 

However there is the concept of a "pious" human being (not a 'Sant' who establishes his own teachings and following - note - for a Gursikh we only follow Guru Granth Sahib's teachings as the only eternal way - but paradoxically that means that we will accept all as One - it is a religion that is a faith that believes in love for all as a foundation and only way, to Waheguru! Dhan Guru Nanak tuhi Nirankaar!!)

So, every time we see reference to "Sant" in Gurbani, see it as a reference to Waheguru Ji the Master of all 'saints'.

Return then for a moment to the concept of said pious human being (this could be equally a man or a woman, child or old, black or white: any and all human beings are welcomed in Guru Nanak Dev Ji's home! Guru Granth Sahib Ji's Court!) 

Salok M9 goes on to say: 

"Katik hovai sadh sang binaseh sabh soch, manghir mahi sohandia har pir sang bethariah, tin ki sobha kia gani ji sahib melariah, tan man maulia ram sio sang sadh sahelariah" 

In Katak by obtaining the "society of the saints" (magic Sangat! Congregation! Collective consciousness!) all the anxieties of the mortal depart. In Maghar beautiful are they who sit with their Beloved (God). How can their glory be measured whom the lord blends with Himself/Herself? The body and mind of those who have the companionship of saints (as read above - the society - the Sangat, Guru Roop!) bloom with the pervading God. They who are without the society of pious persons dwell, all alone. ( :-(  ) Their pain never departs and they fall under the clutches of the death's minister. 

So what's the answer for us all? Sing together fellow maids!!! 

Guru Ji goes on to say!

"Mil Sahia mangal gavhi geet Govind Alaeh! Har Jehaa, Avar na Disai koi ... dooja lavai na laeh!" 

Meeting together, my fellow maids! (therefore we all all but slaves, maids, equal to each other as we perceive our own consciousness and place in this world, and that of another!) Sing! Songs of rejoicing! Utter sermons of the world-Lord. Like God, I perceive no other! No one else is equal to Waheguru! 

To Paapiman the human-being sibling who wrote to me, you know, I really like your commitment and love to Waheguru. I mean that truly. I've seen that in a few of your posts now! You are a good person - thank you  Please, pull me up again if I come across in any way insulting to our commonly cherished highest power. You're a great person for doing so. And it helps me to learn!

May Waheguru bless you always for it !! 

Have a beautiful festive season with your family and loved ones. Lets pray together for world peace. There is so much more contemplation and meditation to do! Share Gursikhi perfect Gurbani all - it is the greatest gift ever ! 

(I love how you end your posts? Can I copy you please?)

Bhul Chuk Maaf Waheguru Jio!  

 

 

[Liv]

On 12/18/2016 at 10:53 AM, tva prasad said:

saints r not mere humans. Brahmgiani r also called saints, there is no difference between brahmgiani and vaheguru. Just like a drop of water merges in the ocean and there is no difference at all any more.

That's a really beautiful way of describing the essential goal of the human birth - to merge with Waheguru. Really beautiful. Thank you! 

[tva prasad]

6 hours ago, Liv said:

That's a really beautiful way of describing the essential goal of the human birth - to merge with Waheguru. Really beautiful. Thank you! 

thanks for the kind words but I feel guilty of being praised. I do not deserve to be praised.

praise the puppeteer not the puppet. I m a mere puppet of the great puppeteer. He is so great words fail to describe his greatness.

[paapiman]

On 12/18/2016 at 11:16 PM, Liv said:

So, every time we see reference to "Sant" in Gurbani, see it as a reference to Waheguru Ji the Master of all 'saints'.

The word Sant is plural in some verses of Gurbani. Therefore, it cannot be a reference to Waheguru jee all the times, as Sikhism is a strict monotheist religion.

Sant in those verses refer to Brahamgyanis (spiritual advanced souls).

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[JasperS]

53 minutes ago, paapiman said:

The word Sant is plural in some verses of Gurbani. Therefore, it cannot be a reference to Waheguru jee all the times, as Sikhism is a strict monotheist religion.

Sant in those verses refer to Brahamgyanis (spiritual advanced souls).

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Ahh but, but what is a soul?

Is not Waheguru the soul behind every entity? 

Paapiman can you please describe for us the nature of nirgun / sargun, while justifying existence of separate souls? 

All is ultimately one, is it not? Is the manifest separate from the unmanifest?

Who is the I AM behind every single entity?

[Lucky]

OK Lads, here's something to ponder over.......

Sant is not Brahmgyani.. There is a difference.  I've spent some time absorbing the gurbani and meditating, and seem to notice the distinctions. If someone wants to bring quotes and shabads that may seem otherwise, then we can surely discuss in separate threads.

 

With reference to this particular thread about "Women as Guru" , I would probably say that some of us moorakhs could easily label a 'sant' as a woman sant or a man sant. However, if the moorakh happens to know a brahmgyani and has actually swallowed some of the gyan that emanates from brahmgyani, then they would be unlikely to refer to brahmgyani in any form of dualism. i.e.. man/woman, black/white, christian/muslim

 

Brahmgyani= Has the knowledge of all divine and human things. Lets say that brahmgyani knows both the NATURE and WISDOM of God.

Sant= Is a servant...a Sikh...one who speaks from experience,...also on journey back home.....on journey to full brahmgyan.,..but still in maya and dualism like us.

 

As for the "Guru as women" op of this thread.  All i can say is that if I see a guru and then subconsciously or consciously, group them into man -woman category, then I've already failed to witness a true guru.   Why?.... because, I've foolishly bought dualism into the forefront.

Being a male or a female is just the vehicle of the mind and soul on this human realm.

Are we following the soul or the vehicle? .....Do we judge the mind & soul as guru or the vehicle?... If the vehicle was guru, then it would have made sense to mummify all the gurus body's back then.

Problem is that we are always making judgments and looking via our physical eyes.  We need to learn to use the eyes of the consciousness

 

 

 

 

 

[JasperS]

1 hour ago, Lucky said:

OK Lads, here's something to ponder over.......

Sant is not Brahmgyani.. There is a difference.  I've spent some time absorbing the gurbani and meditating, and seem to notice the distinctions. If someone wants to bring quotes and shabads that may seem otherwise, then we can surely discuss in separate threads.

 

With reference to this particular thread about "Women as Guru" , I would probably say that some of us moorakhs could easily label a 'sant' as a woman sant or a man sant. However, if the moorakh happens to know a brahmgyani and has actually swallowed some of the gyan that emanates from brahmgyani, then they would be unlikely to refer to brahmgyani in any form of dualism. i.e.. man/woman, black/white, christian/muslim

 

Brahmgyani= Has the knowledge of all divine and human things. Lets say that brahmgyani knows both the NATURE and WISDOM of God.

Sant= Is a servant...a Sikh...one who speaks from experience,...also on journey back home.....on journey to full brahmgyan.,..but still in maya and dualism like us.

 

As for the "Guru as women" op of this thread.  All i can say is that if I see a guru and then subconsciously or consciously, group them into man -woman category, then I've already failed to witness a true guru.   Why?.... because, I've foolishly bought dualism into the forefront.

Being a male or a female is just the vehicle of the mind and soul on this human realm.

Are we following the soul or the vehicle? .....Do we judge the mind & soul as guru or the vehicle?... If the vehicle was guru, then it would have made sense to mummify all the gurus body's back then.

Problem is that we are always making judgments and looking via our physical eyes.  We need to learn to use the eyes of the consciousness

 

 

 

 

 

In absolute concurrence with the above! Gurus were not the body, they were the jyot within.