truthseeker546 Posted April 9, 2015 Report Share Posted April 9, 2015 (edited) Interesting topic, just to throw a slightly different angle on this. If sex for pleasure is so bad, then why did some of the Gurus have multiple wives? Surely their first wives were not barren, Also reading charitropakhyan, it doesn't seem like having sex for fun was a sin to some people at least. Also I believe the original question was about homosexuality in Sikhism, not sex in Sikhism. I see how the conversation became about sex as procreation has been citied by some as the primary goal of marriage. How lets say for example, there are 2 females who are barren. For some medical reason they can't have children. They fall in love with each other, can they get married according to Sikhism? Having children is not an option for them anyway. So are they allowed to love each other? Is that valid form of love according to Sikki? Thanks Edited April 14, 2015 by truthseeker546 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted April 10, 2015 Report Share Posted April 10, 2015 (edited) paapiman, you keep saying that 'sex' is bad for the body? Can you show some scientific evidence for this? Because I can show scientific evidence for the opposite. Evidence shows that the physical pleasure of sex is only a small part of the benefit. There is evidence which suggests that regularly, it helps the body's immune system, lowers blood pressure, burns calories, lowers heart attack risk, lessens chronic pain, and actually helps prevention of prostate cancer in men and breast cancer in women. It also releases stress, and improves sleep. In addition to the physical health benefits, the hormones produced actually help the couple bond emotionally as husband and wife. It's great you asked this question. Semen Retention has numerous benefits for the human body. Some of these I have pasted below. " Physical increased energy and drive boosted immune system cures erectile dysfunction prevents premature ejaculation Mental more confidence improved memory more decisive Spiritual calmer and less prone to anger more connected to spiritual nature control over material urges " [1] - http://authentictantra.com/tantra-blog/semen-retention-and-how-it-will-change-your-life/ Furthermore, "orgasm depletes enormous energy from the endocrine and nervous systems, leaving the body weak and lethargic until the energies are gradually created again."[2] [2] - http://sacred-sex.org/facts/articles/231-semen-retention.html There are possibly many more benefits. But the above should be enough to prove that sex is bad for health. Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa Waheguru jee kee Fateh Edited April 10, 2015 by paapiman 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnSikhGirl Posted April 10, 2015 Report Share Posted April 10, 2015 It's great you asked this question. Semen Retention has numerous benefits for the human body. Some of these I have pasted below. " Physical increased energy and drive boosted immune system cures erectile dysfunction prevents premature ejaculation Mental more confidence improved memory more decisive Spiritual calmer and less prone to anger more connected to spiritual nature control over material urges " [1] - http://authentictantra.com/tantra-blog/semen-retention-and-how-it-will-change-your-life/ Furthermore, "orgasm depletes enormous energy from the endocrine and nervous systems, leaving the body weak and lethargic until the energies are gradually created again."[2] [2] - http://sacred-sex.org/facts/articles/231-semen-retention.html There are possibly many more benefits. But the above should be enough to prove that sex is bad for health. Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa Waheguru jee kee Fateh Ummm exercise depletes energy too... I guess that is my excuse to not exercise anymore then?? Of course it depletes energy... it burns calories too! And it's good for cardiovascular health! Please show me where it says semen retention boots immune system etc? In actual scientific credited research... I can show you where it says the opposite actually... and anyway you only mentioned semen retention and not sex itself. And even then, only what pertains to men... Scientific research shows that regular sex prevents prostrate cancer in men btw. Have a read of the article posted by N30 S!NGH as its very interesting and puts it in perspective. Either end of the scale is bad... The Gurus never taught abstinence. They themselves had wives after all! Both extremes are bad... no sex is bad and too much is bad. But with your own spouse in a monogamous marriage it is fine. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 10, 2015 Report Share Posted April 10, 2015 I am afraid I have to split the topic as we have gone totally off-topic. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 10, 2015 Report Share Posted April 10, 2015 Off-topics posts were moved to new thread: Please stay on topic on this thread. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted April 10, 2015 Report Share Posted April 10, 2015 Ummm exercise depletes energy too... I guess that is my excuse to not exercise anymore then?? Of course it depletes energy... it burns calories too! And it's good for cardiovascular health! Please show me where it says semen retention boots immune system etc? In actual scientific credited research... I can show you where it says the opposite actually... and anyway you only mentioned semen retention and not sex itself. And even then, only what pertains to men... Scientific research shows that regular sex prevents prostrate cancer in men btw. Have a read of the article posted by N30 S!NGH as its very interesting and puts it in perspective. Either end of the scale is bad... The Gurus never taught abstinence. They themselves had wives after all! Both extremes are bad... no sex is bad and too much is bad. But with your own spouse in a monogamous marriage it is fine. Some more evidence regarding the benefits of semen retention. " The semen is a viscid albuminous fluid, alkaline in reaction, which is very rich in calcium and phosphorus, also in lecithin, cholesterol, albumen, nucleoproteins, iron, vitamin E, etc. In the ejaculation of the normal man, about 226 million spermatozoa are given off; these are rich in phosphorized fats (lecithin), cholesterol (the parent-source of sex hormones), nucleoproteins and iron. An ounce of semen is considered to be equal in value to sixty ounces of blood, of which it constitutes an extract of some of its most valuable of constituents, as far as its vitalizing power is concerned. Dr. Frederick McCann remarks on this point, "From what has been stated it must be admitted that the spermatic fluid does possess potentialities justifying the belief of ancient writers concerning its vital properties." The semen contains substances of high physiological value, especially in relation to the nutrition of the brain and nervous system. If resorption of semen through the wall of the female genital tract has a vitalizing effect on the female organism, the same should be the case in the body of the male in which it is formed and conserved. And conversely, loss of semen must deprive the organism of vitality and valuable substances necessary for the nutrition of nervous tissue, such as lecithin, which has been used therapeutically with great success for the cure of neurasthenia resulting from sexual excess. - Raymond W. Bernard MD " [1] - http://sacred-sex.org/facts/articles/231-semen-retention.html " Eminent doctors of the West say that various kinds of diseases arise from the loss of semen, particularly in young age. There appear boils on the body, acne or eruptions on the face, blue lines around the eyes, absence of beard, sunken eyes, pale face with anaemia, loss of memory, loss of eye-sight, shortsightedness, discharge of semen along with urine, enlargement of the testes, pain in the testes, debility, drowsiness, laziness, gloominess, palpitation of the heart, dyspnoea or difficulty in breathing, phthisis, pain in the back, loins, head and joints, weak kidneys, passing urine in sleep, fickle-mindedness, lack of thinking power, bad dreams, wet dreams and restlessness of mind. " [2] - http://sacred-sex.org/scriptures/hinduism/27-sivananda-effects-of-sexual-indulgence.html Also, regarding Prostate cancer, frequent sex is also a cause of it. Please read below. " According to a new research out of the UK, men who have frequent sex in their twenties and thirties were at a greater risk of developing prostate cancer later in life" [3] [3] - http://www.mensfitness.com/training/give-thing-rest Sister, we can keep debating on this issue for a long time but I don't think it's worth the time. Even according to modern science, drinking alcohol, consuming weed, eating meat and masturbation, IF done in moderation are good for health. But for Sikhs, all these are taboos. We need to remember that Gurmat is NOT dependent on science. Gurmat is the most advanced science. Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa Waheguru jee kee Fateh 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted April 11, 2015 Report Share Posted April 11, 2015 Even according to modern science, drinking alcohol, consuming weed, eating meat and masturbation, IF done in moderation are good for health. But for Sikhs, all these are taboos. The bit about eating meat is wrong for a start. Jhatka has been used for a long time. Consuming weed for recreational purposes like spliff-heads do today is wrong, but to fail to acknowledge that some of our ancestors did it during periods of intense warfare (that we can only imagine today) is being false. Then we have the whole issue regarding emerging evidence that compounds in cannabis could actually be potent cancer cures. Are you saying that a Sikh with cancer (or multiple sclerosis) shouldn't take cannabis derived medications to survive? What about the fact that if you are going to undergo serious surgery today, you'd more than likely be sedated using an opiate based anesthetic like morphine - derived from what we'd call afeem today in in India. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted April 11, 2015 Report Share Posted April 11, 2015 The bit about eating meat is wrong for a start. Jhatka has been used for a long time. Consuming weed for recreational purposes like spliff-heads do today is wrong, but to fail to acknowledge that some of our ancestors did it during periods of intense warfare (that we can only imagine today) is being false. Then we have the whole issue regarding emerging evidence that compounds in cannabis could actually be potent cancer cures. Are you saying that a Sikh with cancer (or multiple sclerosis) shouldn't take cannabis derived medications to survive? What about the fact that if you are going to undergo serious surgery today, you'd more than likely be sedated using an opiate based anesthetic like morphine - derived from what we'd call afeem today in in India. Bro, let's stay on the original topic. My point was that, we cannot ALWAYS use science to prove Gurmat. Answers to your questions in a different post. Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa Waheguru jee kee Fateh 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IJJSingh Posted April 12, 2015 Report Share Posted April 12, 2015 kabal hukam nama , patshahi dasvi partangami nahi hona Dont be gay same has been translated by Prof satbir singh it is also considered as a very huge bujar kureith Bhai Savinderpal Singh ji, I believe that you have misquoted Professor Satbir Singh. Satbir Singh ji has explained Guru Gobind Singh ji's Kabul Hukamnama as you have indicated but he made no mention of homosexuality in his explanation. Professor Satbir Singh in his book 'Sau Sawaal (Hundred Questions)' , Published by New Book Company, Jalandhar, Edition 4, page 81, has explained the Kabul Hukamnama and he writes: "......The third instruction: 'par tan gaami nahi hona' was meant to spiritually elevate the panth. People say all is fair in war. But the Guru set a model for a Sikh's character. If for some reason a woman ended up in the custody of Sikhs in a battle, the Sikhs treated her like their own mother: 'Naa Geenrand Zun Tab Maather Kian [this verse is in Persian]'. The fourth instruction: Tobacco's attack....." Waheguru ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru ji ki Fateh 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthseeker546 Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 It's interesting to see the relationship between Gurmat and science. when Gurmat is in alignment with science it means Sikhism is scientific. but of course when it's not - it's screw science. The thread is about homosexuality, what does Gurmat say about this. not individual interpretations that are subject to culture, education, geographical location etc. I asked a question before to which no one ( I think has answered). If marriage in Sikhism is only for procreation, then can someone who can't have children (due to medical reasons) get married? If so then why, can't have children anyway? Also now we have options of fostering, surrogacy, adoption, etc. A ethical person from say California or New York will have different views on this then say someone from India or Africa. Is Sikhism essentially an Indian religion then takes Indian cultural narratives over others? As far as I know, homosexuality is not mentioned in SGGS, therefore it's all interpretation. Is it not? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 (edited) It's interesting to see the relationship between Gurmat and science. when Gurmat is in alignment with science it means Sikhism is scientific. but of course when it's not - it's screw science. Gurmat is the most advanced science. Science is not wrong, but is evolving with time and technology. It will take science plenty of time, to come close to Gurmat. The activities which Satguru jee banned in 15th century such as tobacco use or illicit sex, are being proven by science in the 20th century to be harmful to the human health. I asked a question before to which no one ( I think has answered). If marriage in Sikhism is only for procreation, then can someone who can't have children (due to medical reasons) get married? If so then why, can't have children anyway? Marriage has other benefits too, other than sexual pleasures, such as emotional bonding, psychological, etc. Therefore, if someone cannot have children, then he/she can marry too. Gurmat is not stopping them. Also now we have options of fostering, surrogacy, adoption, etc. A ethical person from say California or New York will have different views on this then say someone from India or Africa. Is Sikhism essentially an Indian religion then takes Indian cultural narratives over others? Sikhism is a universal religion and is not bound to any specific region, unlike other religion or religions. I thing fostering, surrogacy and adoption are allowed in Gurmat. As far as I know, homosexuality is not mentioned in SGGS, therefore it's all interpretation. Is it not? Homosexuality is a type of Kaam vaashnaa, which has more than enough references in Gurbani. Peace Edited April 14, 2015 by paapiman 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthseeker546 Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 who said it's Kaam Vaashnaa? cultural interpretation. is it not? Like I said some people from US or Europe will disagree with you. If having children is not the only goal of marriage but bonding, love, compassion. then if 2 women or men find that in each other, why is that wrong? Any proof from SGGS? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 who said it's Kaam Vaashnaa? cultural interpretation. is it not? Like I said some people from US or Europe will disagree with you. If having children is not the only goal of marriage but bonding, love, compassion. then if 2 women or men find that in each other, why is that wrong? Any proof from SGGS? I don't think, homosexuality is normal. It seems to me, as a medical condition. I think, there is reference to it in vedas. I will try researching on it. Peace 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthseeker546 Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 " I don't think homosexuality is normal, it's seems to me" - your free to think as you please, but do your own thoughts and ideas speak for Sikhism and how the SGGS is interpreted? read my response above please about cultural interpretations. Vedas - are you Hindu Paapiman? I thought Sikhs only had 3 mains holy books, Adi Granth, Dassam Granth and Sarbloath granth. (keeping in mind some only accept the first) didn't know some accepted the Vedas as well. Unless your Nirmalass? It's fine if you are - but giving an answer from the Vedas would give me a Hindu response on homosexuality. would it not? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 who said it's Kaam Vaashnaa? cultural interpretation. is it not? Like I said some people from US or Europe will disagree with you. It is clearly kaam vaashna, as the only purpose of it, is sexual pleasure. It is the Gurmat interpretation of it, not a cultural one. If some people disagree with it, it's their choice. We don't force Gurmat on anyone. I believe, it is a sin in Islam and Christianity too. Tc 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 (edited) " I don't think homosexuality is normal, it's seems to me" - your free to think as you please, but do your own thoughts and ideas speak for Sikhism and how the SGGS is interpreted? read my response above please about cultural interpretations. That's why I said, I will try researching on it. Vedas - are you Hindu Paapiman? I thought Sikhs only had 3 mains holy books, Adi Granth, Dassam Granth and Sarbloath granth. (keeping in mind some only accept the first) didn't know some accepted the Vedas as well. Unless your Nirmalass? It's fine if you are - but giving an answer from the Vedas would give me a Hindu response on homosexuality. would it not? Vedas are also respected holy books in Sikhism. In fact, knowledge of Vedas is taught in Sikh Taksaals (schools). It is a prerequisite to understand some really difficult concepts in Gurbani. Like for example, one would need to complete Calculus, to understand Advanced Calculus. Peace Edited April 15, 2015 by paapiman 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthseeker546 Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 OK Paapiman, your obviously not getting the point. I mentioned a few examples where sex is not an issue. People who can't have children, due to Medical reasons, or say old age. Will you deny they can love someone from their own gender? It's always about sex? Are heterosexual relations always about sex? so how is it clearly Vasshna? and how is this a Gurmat interpretation exactly? It's your interpretation of Gurmat. Yes a lot of religions say homosexuality is a sin, but I'm not on world religion forum am I. I'm on Sikhism forum. I'm interested in what Sikhism says on this topic and why. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 (edited) OK Paapiman, your obviously not getting the point. I mentioned a few examples where sex is not an issue. People who can't have children, due to Medical reasons, or say old age. Will you deny they can love someone from their own gender? It's always about sex? Are heterosexual relations always about sex? so how is it clearly Vasshna? and how is this a Gurmat interpretation exactly? It's your interpretation of Gurmat. Yes a lot of religions say homosexuality is a sin, but I'm not on world religion forum am I. I'm on Sikhism forum. I'm interested in what Sikhism says on this topic and why. If someone loves a person of the same gender, without physical relationship, that won't be classified as Homosexuality. That would be similar to bromance as compared to romance. In a heterosexual relationship (marriage), sex can only be done for procreation, not for pleasure. That is the best way, for the next generation to come. Like for example, alcohol is a taboo for Sikhs, but consuming alcohol in medication, to cure a disease is not. People who cannot procreate, for whatever reason, can still marry according to Gurmat for emotional, psychological, etc benefits. In a homosexual relationship, procreation is not possible naturally. Therefore, any sexual activity performed is done for pleasure, which will be classified under lust. For homosexuality, as I said earlier, I will try researching on it. I am not a Sikh scholar. I am pretty sure, most of your questions can be easily answered by a Sikh scholar. Peace Edited April 14, 2015 by paapiman 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnSikhGirl Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 So Paapiman, you are saying that people who are unable to procreate can get married, but they are not allowed to touch each other?? How would their relationship be any different from brother sister relationship then? Being intimate has a spiritual level too... it's not ONLY physical. You just can not be emotionally close to someone who you can't even touch as a spouse. You can love, support, get psychological benefits from sister / brother type relationship. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthseeker546 Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 (edited) Why is seen as sinful in Sikhism (for pleasure) even if done between married couples? so Sikhs don't believe in foreplay or kissing??? Is making sweet love to you wife lust in Sikhism? Then why did God make Sex feel so Good? If sex is only for procreation, why don't Sikhs have test tube babies now since it's possible. Don't have sex at all? And according to you homosexuality is only if the couple have sex? OK. so if two 80 year old women, who love each other and can't have sex now due to their age want to get married. There is no problem if they get married in a Gudwara via Anand Karaj if they were Sikhs. They cant have sex so they are not homosexuals right? If marriage is not allowed for homosexuals who want to have sex (because they can't have kids) why is Anand Karaj allowed for couples that like having sex for pleasure, and use birth control because they don't want to change their lifestyles? Why are they allowed to go into a Gudwara and get married? As I understand there is no screening before the marriage? Edited April 14, 2015 by truthseeker546 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnSikhGirl Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 (edited) There are Sikh scholars who disagree with you Paapiman... and they explain the spiritual connection of marital sex. (As I have tried to explain... it's not purely physical) It actually mirrors the connection we are supposed to find to God. In a committed relationship, husband and wife literally become one soul in two bodies. Joining physically, they share spiritual energy and become ONE on the same path. The book excerpt I posted below does a better job of explaining it and he actually speaks AGAINST using sex purely for procreation and instead says it is for husband and wife in a deeply committed relationship to establish that spiritual connection: Book: Sikhism By Arvind-Pal Singh Mandair Edited April 14, 2015 by Satkirin_Kaur 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthseeker546 Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 This is a very Sufi view on sex. I recall from a module on Islam I did. Seems like there is no real answer from SGGS, but various interpretations from people who have been inspired from various religions, be it Veda's or Sufism. Going by the above interpretation there is nothing wrong with having sex for pleasure so ,A nothing wrong with the Gurus having sex as it's not a sin. B nothing wrong in homosexuals having sex. so why aren't they allowed to get married via Anand karaj? Although A would be problematic if you believe the Gurus to be divine. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnSikhGirl Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 This is a very Sufi view on sex. I recall from a module on Islam I did. Seems like there is no real answer from SGGS, but various interpretations from people who have been inspired from various religions, be it Veda's or Sufism. Going by the above interpretation there is nothing wrong with having sex for pleasure so ,A nothing wrong with the Gurus having sex as it's not a sin. B nothing wrong in homosexuals having sex. so why aren't they allowed to get married via Anand karaj? Although A would be problematic if you believe the Gurus to be divine. Homosexuals having sex goes against how nature defined sex... you can't fit a round peg in another round peg if you know what I mean...I believe Sikhi is also against unnatural sex between a man and a woman too... also if you know what I mean...as that anatomic area was not designed for that. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted April 15, 2015 Report Share Posted April 15, 2015 (edited) Why is seen as sinful in Sikhism (for pleasure) even if done between married couples? so Sikhs don't believe in foreplay or kissing??? Is making sweet love to you wife lust in Sikhism? Then why did God make Sex feel so Good? If sex is only for procreation, why don't Sikhs have test tube babies now since it's possible. Don't have sex at all? I have answered the first part of your question in another topic, where you asked a similar question. Please click on the link below. Bro, even doing drugs feels really good. But, they are a taboo in Sikhism and they are bad for the health. I don't know much about test tube babies, but it is not a natural process. Natural process always has its benefits. Also bro, please do me a favor. Don't repeat the same or similar questions in different topics, if you don't mind. Peace out Edited April 15, 2015 by paapiman 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted April 15, 2015 Report Share Posted April 15, 2015 (edited) This is a very Sufi view on sex. I recall from a module on Islam I did. So what's wrong with it? Most religions have many similar concepts in them. Seems like there is no real answer from SGGS, but various interpretations from people who have been inspired from various religions, be it Veda's or Sufism. What are you trying to say? Quotes from SGGS have been provided to you regarding sexual desire. Please click on the link below. What else do you need? I have already told you that, Vedas are also respected books in Gurmat and are taught in Taksaals (Schools). Obviously, people will have different interpretations and opinions. Because of that, it is very hard to have a debate on this forum. Although A would be problematic if you believe the Gurus to be divine. Someone has already answered your question regarding the above. We believe, Satgurus to be incarnations of God. Please click on the link below. Peace out Edited April 15, 2015 by paapiman 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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