Gurus And Gods?

[SAadmin]

So when you say you use the term truth not God, why can't the same interpretation be applied to the 10 gurus. They were true teachers as opposed to Gods?

seems like were cherry picking definitions when it suits us, aren't we?

ps. just out of interest, what do you mean by theological difference between abhramic version of god and truth.?

Off course they were emobidment of truth as truth naturally came out verbally and it was written into sggs. God's does not do justice to truth.

I am not cherry picking here, rather than correcting your subtle inadvertently/advertently misinterpretation of God and truth.

Abhramic version of God has limitations as its more confined to personality worship, a, b, c rules followed blindly. However, truth is not as iits wisdom-gyan everyone can relate to its- first acknowledge and put into experienced, realized on personal level, it can related to all across the board.

[paapiman]

So is it true to say only 2 Gurus were mentioned to be God in the SGGS, the other 8 are interpreted as being God?

Also does the SGGS itself mention there are only 10 Gurus or mention all 10 of them?

In Sikhism, all 11 Satgurus are different physical forms of one God.

In Sri Dasam Granth Sahib jee, the names of all 10 Satgurus are mentioned.

Peace

Edited May 1, 2015 by paapiman

[truthseeker546]

So not all 10 Gurus are mentioned in the SGGS, but are in the Dassam Granth. OK thanks.

Yes I understand that all 10 are forms of the one God, as are the 24 Avtars.

OK, when you say they are the forms of God, is this similar to say the Christians saying Jesus was God. (well son of God but I don't want to get into the trinity on this forum). I mean literally God in human form?

If so do Sikhs believe all the 10 Gurus were born as God ?

[paapiman]

OK, when you say they are the forms of God, is this similar to say the Christians saying Jesus was God. (well son of God but I don't want to get into the trinity on this forum). I mean literally God in human form?

Lord Satguru Nanak is God, in human form.

If so do Sikhs believe all the 10 Gurus were born as God ?

Again, this question has been answered. Did you read, all the posts on this topic properly?

Peace

[truthseeker546]

Due to other posts that keep linking back to this one - I want to start this again.

Starting again and taking into consideration different sects within Sikhism that have different views can people please state the sect they belong to, so I don't confuse anyone.

question 1 - Where the Gurus God or human beings? 

[SAadmin]

You seem to have a clear agenda here masquerading behind an research or an student. What exactly you are trying to prove here? 

[CdnSikhGirl]

On November 10, 2015 at 10:10:58, truthseeker546 said:

Due to other posts that keep linking back to this one - I want to start this again.

Starting again and taking into consideration different sects within Sikhism that have different views can people please state the sect they belong to, so I don't confuse anyone.

question 1 - Where the Gurus God or human beings? 

Moot question.

All is God.  God is All. There is only ONE being in existence.  

Creation was born of the light and the light is in the creation. 

God is the director of the play, all of the characters being played and even the play itself.  

God is the chess board and the pieces and even the players. 

 

Edited November 11, 2015 by Satkirin_Kaur

[truthseeker546]

OK Thanks @Satkirin_Kaur

For some reason someone closed down my holy cow post - I was rather enjoying my little discussion with Paapiman, but I see why it was closed. It was interesting while it lasted.

 

Anyway back to this ....

 

OK Sticking to you Satkirin. 

Quote

All is God, God is All,

- is Sikhism is an absolute pantheistic religion - that is to say God is his creation?

So not only is God the 10 Gurus but also the Mughal Kings as well ? Am I correct in understanding what you are saying?

[Guest]

2 hours ago, truthseeker546 said:

OK Thanks @Satkirin_Kaur

For some reason someone closed down my holy cow post - I was rather enjoying my little discussion with Paapiman, but I see why it was closed. It was interesting while it lasted.

 

Anyway back to this ....

 

OK Sticking to you Satkirin. 

- is Sikhism is an absolute pantheistic religion - that is to say God is his creation?

So not only is God the 10 Gurus but also the Mughal Kings as well ? Am I correct in understanding what you are saying?

Exactly!
 

SGGSJ Page 736
 

ਬਾਜੀਗਰਿ ਜੈਸੇ ਬਾਜੀ ਪਾਈ ॥

Bājīgar jaise bājī pā▫ī.

The director stages the play,  (the director, God, stages the play which is this reality. So God is author of the play)

ਨਾਨਾ ਰੂਪ ਭੇਖ ਦਿਖਲਾਈ ॥

Nānā rūp bẖekẖ ḏikẖlā▫ī.

playing the many characters in different costumes;   (God is also ALL of the characters in the play in many costumes = Ego identities)

ਸਾਂਗੁ ਉਤਾਰਿ ਥੰਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਿਓ ਪਾਸਾਰਾ ॥

Sāʼng uṯār thamiĥa▫o pāsārā.

but when the play ends, he takes off the costumes,   (but when the play ends - this world ends - God removes the costumes = Ego identities)

ਤਬ ਏਕੋ ਏਕੰਕਾਰਾ ॥੧॥

Ŧab eko ekankārā. ||1||

and then he is one, and only one. ||1||   (Then we see there was only ONE all along.)

SK@work

[Singh123456777]

ਗੁਰੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਹਰਿ ਸੋਇ ॥੪॥੭॥੯॥

Gur Naanak Naanak Har Soe ||4||7||9||

गुरु नानकु नानकु हरि सोइ ॥४॥७॥९॥Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself. ||4||7||9||

36795 ਗੋਂਡ (ਮ: ੫) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੮੬੪ ਪੰ. ੧੯

 

so it proves guru Ji is god

[CdnSikhGirl]

Page 2, Line 6
ਨਾਨਕ ਏਵੈ ਜਾਣੀਐ ਸਭੁ ਆਪੇ ਸਚਿਆਰੁ ॥੪॥
Nānak evai jāṇī▫ai sabẖ āpe sacẖiār. ||4||
O Nanak, know this well: the True One Himself is All. ||4||

Not just Guru Ji, but everyone and everything!  It's the same ONE soul in ALL beings...

Page 330, Line 12
ਜੀਉ ਏਕੁ ਅਰੁ ਸਗਲ ਸਰੀਰਾ ॥
Jī▫o ek ar sagal sarīrā.
There is only One Soul, and it pervades all bodies.

Edited November 15, 2015 by Satkirin_Kaur

[truthseeker546]

so in effect you're saying the Gurus were n more important than anyone else - as God is in everyone?

How do you explain the problem of evil ? 

[CdnSikhGirl]

4 hours ago, truthseeker546 said:

so in effect you're saying the Gurus were n more important than anyone else - as God is in everyone?

How do you explain the problem of evil ? 

Ego

The Gurus were God fully self-realized. They also taught that we too can reach that state... liberation.  But ALL are God... it's Ego that makes us think we are separate. 

Edited November 15, 2015 by Satkirin_Kaur

[Singh123456777]

ਆਪਿ ਨਰਾਇਣੁ ਕਲਾ ਧਾਰਿ ਜਗ ਮਹਿ ਪਰਵਰਿਯਉ ॥   आपि नराइणु कला धारि जग महि परवरियउ ॥   Āp narā▫iṇ kalā ḏẖār jag mėh parvari▫ya▫o.   The Lord Himself wielded His Power and entered the world.

ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰਿ ਆਕਾਰੁ ਜੋਤਿ ਜਗ ਮੰਡਲਿ ਕਰਿਯਉ ॥   निरंकारि आकारु जोति जग मंडलि करियउ ॥   Nirankār ākār joṯ jag mandal kari▫ya▫o.   The Formless Lord took form, and with His Light He illuminated the realms of the world.

 

[Singh123456777]

Satguru Nanak Aap Parmeswar - Avtaar Lie Shubh Bans Pardhana".

 

This tuk means that guru Nanak dev is god

Edited November 15, 2015 by Singh123456777

[truthseeker546]

Quote

The Formless Lord took form, and with His Light He illuminated the realms of the world.

Where is this quote from ... SGGS?

Quote

The Gurus were God fully self-realized. They also taught that we too can reach that state... liberation.  But ALL are God... it's Ego that makes us think we are separate. 

OK - your statements are self contradictory at times I'm finding it difficult to understand what exactly you are conveying.

 When you say All are God - what do you mean ? 

Are they inspired by God - i.e. holy ghost idea.or is everyone literally God - as Jesus in Christianity. 

Now you say that the difference between the Gurus and everyone else is that everyone else has an ego and the Gurus didn't. We can however reach their rank by losing the ego.

So anyone that has lost their ego is the same as God himself? how do you reconcile that with the oneness of God?

And if God coexists with the ego in normal human beings - and for most people the ego is stronger then say the God within them, what does that say about the power of God? weaker then the ego.

When you say the Gurus were God - what do you mean, THE God in human form, or humans inspired by GOD that don't have an ego?

[Singh123456777]

Yes I got it from SGGS.

Satkiran is just rambling on. In Sri guru Granth sahib Ji it all talks about God came in human form as the gurus. Hence the quotes I have posted. The gurus were god. In sikhi we have a concept of sargun and nirgun. The article I post will help you more.

http://tisarpanth.blogspot.ca/2013/02/sargun-and-nirgun-duality-of-god.html?m=1

[Guest]

2 hours ago, truthseeker546 said:

 Where is this quote from ... SGGS?

OK - your statements are self contradictory at times I'm finding it difficult to understand what exactly you are conveying.

 When you say All are God - what do you mean ?

Are they inspired by God - i.e. holy ghost idea.or is everyone literally God - as Jesus in Christianity.

Now you say that the difference between the Gurus and everyone else is that everyone else has an ego and the Gurus didn't. We can however reach their rank by losing the ego.

So anyone that has lost their ego is the same as God himself? how do you reconcile that with the oneness of God?

And if God coexists with the ego in normal human beings - and for most people the ego is stronger then say the God within them, what does that say about the power of God? weaker then the ego.

When you say the Gurus were God - what do you mean, THE God in human form, or humans inspired by GOD that don't have an ego?

You have to stop thinking odf humans and God as two separate things... imagine you dream at night.  In that dream, you are a character correct? But what about all the other characters in the dream? Are they also you? What about the blades of grass, the tress, the sky, the rocks, the animals, the ocean etc? They in fact are ALL you because they are all WITHIN YOU. Creations of your mind.  The characters all seemingly interact as separate individual entities, but to you, the dreamer, they are in fact all one thing... the dream.  There was only ONE consciousness pervading that dream, all of the characters etc. Now, most of the time when we dream, we have no idea we are dreaming.  We merrily go about life in our dream as if that were real.  We think that dream character IS who we are right?  For example, last night I dreamt I was a pilot flying a plane through a storm.  While in the dream I WAS the pilot and that existence was all I knew.  But when I woke up in the morning, I realized the pilot was only a character I was playing, as were all the passengers, the plane itself, and even the storm!  Following me so far?? Good...

Now, if you could never wake up... the dream would be all you knew of reality right?? You would never know that the entire dream was really you!  Using the dream as a metaphor (which Gurbani actually uses numerous times), let's call the dream characters "Ego".  Their separateness as individuals is illusion as we know from the vantage point of the dreamer they don't actually exist...they are real as thoughtforms but not tangible in a physical sense, even though they feel like it from that perspective. There is a whole persona built around the dream characters, through their experiences in the dream itself.  Me as the pilot, I had a whole history in the dream, while in the dream I KNEW who I was... that persona was who I thought I was.  Only... it was all an illusion because of the dream.  The pilot was operating through the SAME consciousness as me Harkiran, but was an entirely different persona cut off from all the other entities in the dream. Until I woke up...

Now, the big shift in thinking / realization... RIGHT NOW, YOU ARE DREAMING!  There is ONLY ONE consciousness operating in THIS dream which we call physical reality.  Then answer this question for yourself:  WHO IS THAT DREAMER????   Who REALLY was the consciousness behind the pilot in my dream?  Harkiran??? Or is Harkiran just another character? You can easily understand this if you have ever fallen asleep inside your dream, and had another dream - a dream within a dream. In the end, WHO is the dreamer??? There is ONLY ONE DREAMER.  Akal Purakh, Waheguru... the dreamer has no form, is just formless consciousness - Nirguna.   Sarguna is ALL form, and ALL form happens WITHIN the creator.

The Gurus were essentially the formless Creator, fully awakened within the dream.  There was no hint of the dream character... it was fully the dreamer within its own dream. So yes they WERE God.  But the rest of creation is not any 'less' God.  At the same time, we are ALL God as well, but we are still sleeping.  We are still experiencing in a limited sense, all we know is the dream, we may read how the dream is false, but since it's all we know and can experience directly, it's hard to imagine that we are more than the character we are experiencing things through.  When one reaches state of Brahamgyan, they essentially have awakened within the dream.  On a smaller scale, you can experience this in your dreams at night, it's called Lucid Dreaming, and see what happenes to your perception of your dream when you do awaken within it. So let's say you were dreaming you were a shop keeper tonight and all of a sudden you realized, hey wait a second I am not a shop keeper, I am truthseeker, and this is my dream... how would your perception of that world change???

So yes, the Gurus taught us that we CAN reach that state... we can awaken within the dream.  We can realize the divinity within us.  We can fully recognize without all doubt that we are in fact only dream characters.

Of course, I am using dreams as a metaphor here to simplify it... I wouldn't make claims that it literally is a dream... but it at least gives you a vantage point to understand how both of the above claims can be true and not actually contradict each other.

Regards,

Harkiran (at work)

  


 
 

[truthseeker546]

so what your saying is we are (to give another example) in the matrix and the Gurus are kind of like Morpheus and Neo - going around freeing people from that state of "sleep" to awake to the realisation of what is real.

But that concept is shared in Abhramic faiths also, hence the movie.

So again, what you're saying is everybody is God and those much as the Guru who has overpowered the ego are like God? Along with the problems that brings, what your saying is if I get rid of my ego (as hard as that may be) I wuld be no different then Guru Angad or Arjun etc

[CdnSikhGirl]

ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹਿ ਇਹੁ ਜਗੁ ਸੁਤਾ ॥

Mā▫i▫ā mohi ih jag suṯā.

This world is asleep in emotional attachment to Maya.

ਨਾਮੁ ਵਿਸਾਰਿ ਅੰਤਿ ਵਿਗੁਤਾ ॥

Nām visār anṯ viguṯā.

Forgetting the Naam, the Name of the Lord, it ultimately comes to ruin.

ਜਿਸ ਤੇ ਸੁਤਾ ਸੋ ਜਾਗਾਏ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਸੋਝੀ ਪਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੬॥

Jis ṯe suṯā so jāgā▫e gurmaṯ sojẖī pāvṇi▫ā. ||6||

The One who put it to sleep shall also awaken it. Through the Guru's Teachings, understanding dawns. ||6||

ਅਪਿਉ ਪੀਐ ਸੋ ਭਰਮੁ ਗਵਾਏ ॥

Api▫o pī▫ai so bẖaram gavā▫e.

One who drinks in this Nectar, shall have his delusions dispelled.

ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦਿ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਗਤਿ ਪਾਏ ॥

Gur parsāḏ mukaṯ gaṯ pā▫e.

By Guru's Grace, the state of liberation is attained.

[truthseeker546]

@N30 S!NGH

Quote

  You seem to have a clear agenda here masquerading behind an research or an student. What exactly you are trying to prove here? 

Sorry I've just read this ... my module on Sikhism was over a while back, I don't need to actually know any more about Sikhism - however It's my passion to study world faiths. I'm on a number of forums, of various faiths - this is not the only one. 

I have a predilection for the  Socratic method of learning - hence why I'm asking questions - that's when you learn the stuff actually believe as opposed to the kind of PR stuff you find in books, of what religious people would like to think they believe.

One thing I find about some Sikhs is that whenever they run into issues, theological/political/cultural - they always blame someone else - Mughals, British, feminists, RSS etc etc. - from what I can see I'm asking pertinent questions, haven't offended anybody. After all, this is a public forum designed to answer questions, if you can't then doesn't mean I have an agenda or I'm trying to prove something.

I understand people are not scholars here so they won't be able to answer everything however some of you do have access to learned people and I was hoping that people would find out for me.

Edited November 19, 2015 by truthseeker546

[truthseeker546]

@Satkirin_Kaur

 

Thanks for the quotes, however those verses your quoted aren't indicating the god-ness of the gurus or of people that attain enlightenment. If fact the verse  :

Quote

This world is asleep in emotional attachment to Maya.

 

I find this kind of sentiment in almost all major religions - basic idea is the same however it's implications can be translated quite differently. For one version of Sikhism, for example ; it means everyone is a part of the divine, but also attached to an ego - (paradoxically in the dream example the ego is also part of God - thus the divine self would be at odds with itself ) once the ego has been destroyed - the subject becomes divine. 

This raise questions about the idea of absolute oneness of God - as per Mool mantra. As most religious again believe in One God but translate that quite differently.  

[CdnSikhGirl]

On 11/16/2015, 3:43:56, truthseeker546 said:

so what your saying is we are (to give another example) in the matrix and the Gurus are kind of like Morpheus and Neo - going around freeing people from that state of "sleep" to awake to the realisation of what is real.

But that concept is shared in Abhramic faiths also, hence the movie.

So again, what you're saying is everybody is God and those much as the Guru who has overpowered the ego are like God? Along with the problems that brings, what your saying is if I get rid of my ego (as hard as that may be) I wuld be no different then Guru Angad or Arjun etc

In fact, when we eventually fully merge back with Creator (attain liberation) we will be no different from God!!!  

btw ignoring the outward teachings of each faith, there are hidden gnosis / esoteric teachings that are VERY similar in ALL the world's religions!  Jewish Kalaba, Esoteric Christianity, Sufism, Freemasonry, Rosicrucianism, Buddhist, Hindu, etc. are all really teaching the same things (if you understand that the stories of the prophets etc are allegorical and not literal - for example, Genesis in the Bible is not a literal account of one male Adam and one female Eve but of the masculine and feminine principle in all of us. Jesus spoke in parables... and only the initiated could understand what he was really saying. Ancient Egyptian mythology... Isis, Osiris, Horus etc.  Same story again but different characters, Ancient Mayans etc. They all were pointing to the same things using different terminology and stories.  Alchemy... I find it very interesting that much of what SGGSJ says matches with the Emerald Tablet as well (Emerald Tablet of Hermes).  I have come across some statements in Gurbani which almost match the lines in Emerald Tablet word for word.  

It all comes down to the same basic message:  Man - Know Thyself, and thou shalt know the Universe and God 

 

 

Edited November 19, 2015 by Satkirin_Kaur

[truthseeker546]

@Singh123456777

Quote

गुरु नानकु नानकु हरि सोइ ॥४॥७॥९॥Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.

Thanks ! 

This does prove that a verse does state the Guru Nanak is Lord himself - I will state here to other sects within Sikhism that I don't know if the translation is agreed upon by everyone, or the context or meaning or what verses come after that verse etc. I'll take for face value.

OK - I've opened this forum as Gods and Gurus - Gurus being plural as at least all Sikhism sects for the very minimum have 10 Gurus. That gives some evidence towards Gurus Nanaks claim to divinity, what about the others.

Also - If Guru Nanak was God himself, that begs the question - who was he praying to ( his finding God in the river etc) - as far as I know - non of his companions actually prayed to him? 

Also Guru Nanak had a wife and children, how does Sikhism deal with this. - back to the point of did the Gurus have children conventionally (via sexual intercourse) or miraculously - as in the case of Jesus in Christianity?  If conventionally then where does that leave the idea of God in Sikhism.? I compare here to the God of classical theisms as seen in the Abrahamic faiths.

[CdnSikhGirl]

2 minutes ago, truthseeker546 said:

@Singh123456777

Thanks ! 

This does prove that a verse does state the Guru Nanak is Lord himself - I will state here to other sects within Sikhism that I don't know if the translation is agreed upon by everyone, or the context or meaning or what verses come after that verse etc. I'll take for face value.

OK - I've opened this forum as Gods and Gurus - Gurus being plural as at least all Sikhism sects for the very minimum have 10 Gurus. That gives some evidence towards Gurus Nanaks claim to divinity, what about the others.

Also - If Guru Nanak was God himself, that begs the question - who was he praying to ( his finding God in the river etc) - as far as I know - non of his companions actually prayed to him? 

Also Guru Nanak had a wife and children, how does Sikhism deal with this. - back to the point of did the Gurus have children conventionally (via sexual intercourse) or miraculously - as in the case of Jesus in Christianity?  If conventionally then where does that leave the idea of God in Sikhism.? I compare here to the God of classical theisms as seen in the Abrahamic faiths.

Keeping in mind that Sikhism does not believe God is a being separate from us, but in fact that God is everyone and everything, Guru Nanak Dev Ji was God fully realized / conscious as the whole (Creator Consciousness), but within the creation.  

The Creation was born of the light, and the light is in the creation. 

Problem is, nearly all of creation has forgotten this fact!