Gurus And Gods?

[truthseeker546]

Further to my post on 24 forms of a formless God, I was made aware that some Sikhs at least believe the Guru's to be in Gods form.

Before I start some questions regarding this, can I ask is this a belief shared by all Sikhs or just some sects?

Are there any clear proofs on the Gurus being God from SGGS?

[Harjots8963]

ਗੁਰੁ ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ ਏਕੋ ਜਾਣੁ ॥

Know that the Guru and the Transcendent Lord are One

[paapiman]

Further to my post on 24 forms of a formless God, I was made aware that some Sikhs at least believe the Guru's to be in Gods form.

Before I start some questions regarding this, can I ask is this a belief shared by all Sikhs or just some sects?

Are there any clear proofs on the Gurus being God from SGGS?

ਸਭ ਤੇ ਵਡਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਜਿਨਿ ਕਲ ਰਾਖੀ ਮੇਰੀ ॥੪॥੧੦॥੫੭॥

Guru Nanak is the greatest of all; He saved my honor in this Dark Age of Kali Yuga. ||4||10||57||

The word 'ਵਡਾ' also means big. Who is the biggest of all - God; Who is God - Lord Guru Nanak.

ਬਾਣੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਰੂ ਹੈ ਬਾਣੀ ਵਿਚਿ ਬਾਣੀ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਸਾਰੇ ॥

The Word, the Bani is Guru, and Guru is the Bani. Within the Bani, the Ambrosial Nectar is contained.

Guru is Bani.

ਵਾਹੁ ਵਾਹੁ ਬਾਣੀ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਹੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਜੇਵਡੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥

Waaho! Waaho! is the Bani, the Word, of the Formless Lord. There is no other as great as He is.

Bani is God

Therefore, it can be proven from the above that, Guru is God.

Peace

Edited April 15, 2015 by paapiman

[Kuttabanda2]

In my opinion, the Guru is God, but metaphorically.

The Gurus were the Servants of God, The messengers and physical representatives. They preached Dhur Ki Bani which is enshrined in The Bani of Gursikhs, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee, and Sri Dasam Patshah Ki Granth.

Gurbani says:

ਿਤਨਪ੍ਰਭਜਬਅਾਿੲਸਮੁਿਹਦੀਅਾ ॥ ਤਬਹਮਜਨਮਕਲੂਮਿਹਲੀਅਾ ॥੪॥

The service that they rendered the Incomprehensible Lord, caused the pleasure of the Supreme Guru (i.e. Lord).

ਿਜੳੁਤਿੳੁਪ੍ਰਭਹਮਕੋਸਮਝਾਯੋ ॥ ੲਮਕਿਹਕੈਿੲਹਲੋਕਪਠਾਯੋ ॥੫॥

But the Lord made me understand His Will and sent me in this world with the following words.5.

-Sri Dasam Patshah Ki Granth Sahib Jee.

[Singh123456777]

ਆਪਿ ਨਰਾਇਣੁ ਕਲਾ ਧਾਰਿ ਜਗ ਮਹਿ ਪਰਵਰਿਯਉ ॥ आपि नराइणु कला धारि जग महि परवरियउ ॥ Āp narā▫iṇ kalā ḏẖār jag mėh parvari▫ya▫o. The Lord Himself wielded His Power and entered the world.

ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰਿ ਆਕਾਰੁ ਜੋਤਿ ਜਗ ਮੰਡਲਿ ਕਰਿਯਉ ॥ निरंकारि आकारु जोति जग मंडलि करियउ ॥ Nirankār ākār joṯ jag mandal kari▫ya▫o. The Formless Lord took form, and with His Light He illuminated the realms of the world.

ਜਹ ਕਹ ਤਹ ਭਰਪੂਰੁ ਸਬਦੁ ਦੀਪਕਿ ਦੀਪਾਯਉ ॥ जह कह तह भरपूरु सबदु दीपकि दीपायउ ॥ Jah kah ṯah bẖarpūr sabaḏ ḏīpak ḏīpā▫ya▫o. He is All-pervading everywhere; the Lamp of the Shabad, the Word, has been lit.

ਜਿਹ ਸਿਖਹ ਸੰਗ੍ਰਹਿਓ ਤਤੁ ਹਰਿ ਚਰਣ ਮਿਲਾਯਉ ॥ जिह सिखह संग्रहिओ ततु हरि चरण मिलायउ ॥ Jih sikẖah sangarahi▫o ṯaṯ har cẖaraṇ milā▫ya▫o. Whoever gathers in the essence of the teachings shall be absorbed in the Feet of the Lord.

[Singh123456777]

Sri Guru gobind Singh Ji maharaj also wrote "guru Nanak aap parmeshvar" in Sri sarbloh Granth...

In my opinion the guru is god and there is no difference.

[BhagatSingh]

It don't get any clearer than this -

ਸਤਜੁਗਿ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਛਲਿਓ ਬਲਿ ਬਾਵਨ ਭਾਇਓ ॥
In Satyug, You enjoyed deceiving and liberating King Bali in the Vaman avtar.

ਤ੍ਰੇਤੈ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਘੁਵੰਸੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥
In Treta, You loved being called King Ram, of the Raghu Dynasty.

ਦੁਆਪੁਰਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਮੁਰਾਰਿ ਕੰਸੁ ਕਿਰਤਾਰਥੁ ਕੀਓ ॥
In Dwapar, You, Krishan Murara, killed Kans and saved everyone.

ਉਗ੍ਰਸੈਣ ਕਉ ਰਾਜੁ ਅਭੈ ਭਗਤਹ ਜਨ ਦੀਓ ॥
You granted Kingship to Ugrasain and elevated your devotees.

ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਣੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰੁ ਅੰਗਦੁ ਅਮਰੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥
In Kaliyug, You came as Guru Nanak Dev, Guru Angad Dev and Guru Amardas.

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਰਾਜੁ ਅਬਿਚਲੁ ਅਟਲੁ ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖਿ ਫੁਰਮਾਇਓ ॥੭॥
The rule of Guru Sahibs is unchanging, unmovable, by His very command.

Guru Granth Sahib, 1390

[paapiman]

Sri Guru gobind Singh Ji maharaj also wrote "guru Nanak aap parmeshvar" in Sri sarbloh Granth...

In my opinion the guru is god and there is no difference.

Bro, is it in Sri Dasam Granth Sahib jee or Sri Sarabloh Granth Sahib jee? I think, you are referring to the below tuks.

*

aad niranjan hai guru Nanak dhar ke moorat hai jag ayo, lok suniyo bidh lok suniyo sab lok suniyo sab darsan payo

..... sangat par utaaran ko satgur Nanak panth chalayo, waheguru sri guru Nanak dhar ke moorat hai jag ayo

* [1] - http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/66824-help-find-this-bani/

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

[Singh123456777]

Bro, is it in Sri Dasam Granth Sahib jee or Sri Sarabloh Granth Sahib jee? I think, you are referring to the below tuks.

*

aad niranjan hai guru Nanak dhar ke moorat hai jag ayo, lok suniyo bidh lok suniyo sab lok suniyo sab darsan payo

..... sangat par utaaran ko satgur Nanak panth chalayo, waheguru sri guru Nanak dhar ke moorat hai jag ayo

* [1] - http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/66824-help-find-this-bani/

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

The tuk I'm referring to is from Sri sarbloh Granth and also appears in the tarna dal gutka.

[paapiman]

The tuk I'm referring to is from Sri sarbloh Granth and also appears in the tarna dal gutka.

Can you please get the exact verses?

Thanks

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

[Singh123456777]

Wait bro ill try finding it online...

[Ragmaala]

Before I start some questions regarding this, can I ask is this a belief shared by all Sikhs or just some sects?

Are there any clear proofs on the Gurus being God from SGGS?

I cannot speak for all Sikhs, But I and numerous other Sikhs I have met since my childhood believed in Guru Nanak being Nirankar.

Since you have a written proof from SGGS about Gurus being God, what do you have to say now ?

[Guest]

Further to my post on 24 forms of a formless God, I was made aware that some Sikhs at least believe the Guru's to be in Gods form.

Before I start some questions regarding this, can I ask is this a belief shared by all Sikhs or just some sects?

Are there any clear proofs on the Gurus being God from SGGS?

There is without any question/doubt SatGuru's were God form as gurbani mentions but Satguru most ultimate deepest profound saroop or form is formless nirankar...The reason Satguru immanent itself in form is to help seeker to connect and express itself in both seeker and whats being seeked.

SatGuru is both personal and impersonal non dual all pervading God. Satguru-One God helps seeker in all the ways, in sikhism context-Satguru immanent itself in form to help seeker in its spiritual development help seeker to give up his ego doership to personal God-Sargun saroop by surrendering to personal God, then Satguru in form connect seeker back to its source/Satguru most profound unmanifested/ajooni-unborn formless all pervading God.

[truthseeker546]

Okaay, First of all, many apologies - I was away for a few days.

OK. - before I start to question and dig deeper into Sikh beliefs, I want to make sure I understand where you are coming from.

So the above quote from BhagatSingh : " In Satyug you ...by his very command". Guru Granth Sahib, 1390

There was some confusion from other people that this quote is either from Dassam Granth or Sarbloth Granth. Can you confirm that this is from the Guru Granth Sahib?

And can someone tell me which Guru interpreted this as " Gurus being God" as to me at least this verse is not clear but rather interpretation. Guru could have been humans and reincarnated into various historical figures. Doesn't mean to say he was God. Where does SGGS interpretations come from?

Also - this might be a rather difficult question, but if some kind soul could tell me if this belief is shared by all beliefs or is this a point of contention between various sects?

[paapiman]

So the above quote from BhagatSingh : " In Satyug you ...by his very command". Guru Granth Sahib, 1390

There was some confusion from other people that this quote is either from Dassam Granth or Sarbloth Granth. Can you confirm that this is from the Guru Granth Sahib?

It is from Satguru Sri Guru Granth Sahib jee.

And can someone tell me which Guru interpreted this as " Gurus being God" as to me at least this verse is not clear but rather interpretation. Guru could have been humans and reincarnated into various historical figures. Doesn't mean to say he was God. Where does SGGS interpretations come from?

There have been other quotes provided in this topic too. Did you read them?

The below verse, was posted by another member. This should clarify your doubts in this matter.

ਗੁਰੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਹਰਿ ਸੋਇ ॥੪॥੭॥੯॥

Gur Naanak Naanak Har Soe ||4||7||9||

गुरु नानकु नानकु हरि सोइ ॥४॥७॥९॥

Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself. ||4||7||9||

36795 ਗੋਂਡ (ਮ: ੫) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੮੬੪ ਪੰ. ੧੯

Raag Gond Guru Arjan Dev

Peace

[truthseeker546]

Thanks paapiman, umm any reason only Guru Nanak is mentioned in the above mentioned verse. and not the other 9 as well?

Are there any other verses that mention other Gurus being God? or is it only Guru Nanak?

Also I don't speak Gurumukhi. so can someone (other then Paapiman of course) confirm that the above translation of the verse is agreed upon by all Sikhs.? Does the translated word (of Lord) here have the same ambiguity, as in English. Lord can mean master, leader, owner etc.

Not that I doubt you Paapiman, I just want to get a wide range of beliefs (if there are)

[paapiman]

Thanks paapiman, umm any reason only Guru Nanak is mentioned in the above mentioned verse. and not the other 9 as well?

Are there any other verses that mention other Gurus being God? or is it only Guru Nanak?

Lord Satguru Nanak was the incarnation of God, from birth. He gave this power to the next guru and so on. Finally, the power was given to the holy book. Below is a verse, regarding fifth master from SGGS.

ਭਨਿ ਮਥੁਰਾ ਕਛੁ ਭੇਦੁ ਨਹੀ ਗੁਰੁ ਅਰਜੁਨੁ ਪਰਤਖ੍ਯ੍ਯ ਹਰਿ ॥੭॥੧੯॥

So speaks Mat'huraa: there is no difference between God and Guru; Guru Arjun is the Personification of the Lord Himself. ||7||19||

Edited April 26, 2015 by paapiman

[paapiman]

Also I don't speak Gurumukhi. so can someone (other then Paapiman of course) confirm that the above translation of the verse is agreed upon by all Sikhs.? Does the translated word (of Lord) here have the same ambiguity, as in English. Lord can mean master, leader, owner etc.

Not that I doubt you Paapiman, I just want to get a wide range of beliefs (if there are)

There is a cult/sect in Sikhism which does not believe that Lord Guru Nanak is God. It is not an orthodox sect of Sikhism and it was started many years after tenth master. Almost all orthodox sects believe that Lord Guru Nanak is God himself.

Peace

[Singh123456777]

All the gurus in my humble opinion is god...

[CdnSikhGirl]

Lord Satguru Nanak was the incarnation of God, from birth. He gave this power to the next guru and so on. Finally, the power was given to the holy book. Below is a verse, regarding fifth master from SGGS.

ਭਨਿ ਮਥੁਰਾ ਕਛੁ ਭੇਦੁ ਨਹੀ ਗੁਰੁ ਅਰਜੁਨੁ ਪਰਤਖ੍ਯ੍ਯ ਹਰਿ ॥੭॥੧੯॥

So speaks Mat'huraa: there is no difference between God and Guru; Guru Arjun is the Personification of the Lord Himself. ||7||19||

Are you sure this could also mean something else... remember that metaphor is used heavily in Gurbani...

When one becomes Brahmgiani (and realizes their OWN SELF), they realize the truth about reality and reflect God through their every thought and action. We are told in Gurbani that every one of us IS God and we have just forgotten that fact by this enticement called Maya. We have become immersed in this Ego identity and the 'rules' of this world of Maya. So have become consumed by greed... lust.... anger.... attachment... desire.... but it IS within us to surpass this and 'remember' who we are (simran/remembrance).

The above tuk could just as easily have been saying that Guru Arjun was reflecting the qualities of God through his every thought and action, so that there was no *distinguishable* difference between him and God. It doesn't have to be a literal meaning that he was physically God as in an incarnation. When so much metaphor is used in other shabads, it wouldnt make sense that this one is literal by itself.

I think we have to be careful about not taking everything literal and look for the deeper meaning...

Again, if God is formless and that is the ultimate realizty and everything exists WITHIN God, then no single thing WITHIN a WHOLE could ever = that whole.... If you have a pie, and it's filled with cherries, no single cherry would ever be the whole of the pie. In your dream at night, every character is really you, but no single character in that dream could equal the WHOLE of you. They are just a character being played by you for the duration of the dream. N30 and I have already pointed out the shabad that explains this very clearly on Ang 736.

Further... we are told:

Page 60, Line 13

ਸੋਹੰ ਆਪੁ ਪਛਾਣੀਐ ਸਬਦਿ ਭੇਦਿ ਪਤੀਆਇ ॥

Sohaʼn āp pacẖẖāṇī▫ai sabaḏ bẖeḏ paṯī▫ā▫e.

One who recognizes within himself that, "He is me", and who is pierced through by the Shabad, is satisfied.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਆਪੁ ਪਛਾਣੀਐ ਅਵਰ ਕਿ ਕਰੇ ਕਰਾਇ ॥੯॥

Gurmukẖ āp pacẖẖāṇī▫ai avar kė kare karā▫e. ||9||

When one becomes Gurmukh and realizes his own self, what more is there left to do or have done? ||9||

Page 97, Line 3

ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਘਰ ਮਹਿ ਪਾਇਆ ॥

Parabẖ abẖināsī gẖar mėh pā▫i▫ā.

I have found the Immortal Lord within the home of my own self.

ALSO (Ang 106):

ਘਟ ਘਟ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਵਰਤੈ ਨੇਰਾ ॥

Gẖat gẖat anṯar varṯai nerā.

Deep within each and every heart, He dwells near and close at hand.

ਸਦਾ ਅਲਿਪਤੁ ਜੀਆ ਕਾ ਦਾਤਾ ਕੋ ਵਿਰਲਾ ਆਪੁ ਪਛਾਣੈ ਜੀਉ ॥੨॥

Saḏā alipaṯ jī▫ā kā ḏāṯā ko virlā āp pacẖẖāṇai jī▫o. ||2||

He is always detached; He is the Giver of souls. How rare is that person who understands his own self. ||2||

ਪ੍ਰਭ ਮਿਲਣੈ ਕੀ ਏਹ ਨੀਸਾਣੀ ॥

Parabẖ milṇai kī eh nīsāṇī.

This is the sign of union with God.

This meaning is more evident when you take the meaning of that actual shabad you posted the single tuk from.....in context:

ਨਿਰਮਲ ਭੇਖ ਅਪਾਰ ਤਾਸੁ ਬਿਨੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਕੋਈ ॥

Nirmal bẖekẖ apār ṯās bin avar na ko▫ī.

He is the Pure, Immaculate Form of the Infinite Lord; except for Him, there is no other at all.

(We are told there is no other at all... only God)

ਮਨ ਬਚ ਜਿਨਿ ਜਾਣਿਅਉ ਭਯਉ ਤਿਹ ਸਮਸਰਿ ਸੋਈ ॥

Man bacẖ jin jāṇi▫a▫o bẖa▫ya▫o ṯih samsar so▫ī.

Whoever knows Him in thought, word and deed, becomes just like Him.

(However those who reflect Gods qualities in their thoughts, words and deeds become JUST LIKE HIM. This is important because its immediately leading up to the tuk you quoted)

ਧਰਨਿ ਗਗਨ ਨਵ ਖੰਡ ਮਹਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਸ੍ਵਰੂਪੀ ਰਹਿਓ ਭਰਿ ॥

Ḏẖaran gagan nav kẖand mėh joṯ savrūpī rahi▫o bẖar.

He is totally pervading the earth, the sky and the nine regions of the planet. He is the Embodiment of the Light of God.

ਭਨਿ ਮਥੁਰਾ ਕਛੁ ਭੇਦੁ ਨਹੀ ਗੁਰੁ ਅਰਜੁਨੁ ਪਰਤਖ੍ਯ੍ਯ ਹਰਿ ॥੭॥੧੯॥

Bẖan mathurā kacẖẖ bẖeḏ nahī gur arjun parṯakẖ▫y har. ||7||19||

So speaks Mat'huraa: there is no difference between God and Guru; Guru Arjun is the Personification of the Lord Himself. ||7||19||

(Doubly important is the lead off: So speaks Mathurra... there is no difference between God and Guru. In other words, because of the preceeding lines which state those who reflect Gods qualities in thought word and deed become LIKE GOD, then there is NO DIFFERENCE between God and Guru as Guru has reflected these qualities fully.)

AHA!!!!!!! So when taken in context, this shabad seems to be saying that Guru, who knows God and has become pure in their every thought word and deed, has become just like him because they are reflecting all the qualities of God, and hence there is no difference bewteen them... they are indistinguishable. Hence Guru is the personification of God.

Okay... so then some will ask why then does it say in the same shabad:

ਜਗ ਅਉਰੁ ਨ ਯਾਹਿ ਮਹਾ ਤਮ ਮੈ ਅਵਤਾਰੁ ਉਜਾਗਰੁ ਆਨਿ ਕੀਅਉ ॥

Jag a▫or na yāhi mahā ṯam mai avṯār ujāgar ān kī▫a▫o.

In the great darkness of this world, the Lord revealed Himself, incarnated as Guru Arjun.

Well, we have to be careful on translations. The word -Avtar- does not mean incarnation but the deliberate descent of a soul into a physical form (any soul). In the original Gurmukhi, it does not contain the words for -reveal himself- or even mention the Lord at all.

ਜਗ jag - World

ਅਉਰੁ aor

ਨ na - from

ਯਾਹਿ yahi - also

ਮਹਾ maha - great

ਤਮ tam - darkness

ਮੈ mai - within

ਅਵਤਾਰੁ avtar - descent of soul into physical form

ਉਜਾਗਰੁ ujagar -

ਆਨਿ an - brought

ਕੀਅਉ ॥ kiao

This seems to simply be saying that in a time of darkness a great soul was descended into physical form. There is no direct translation stating -the Lord revealed himself incarcated as Guru Arjun- So it also suggests that Guru...knowing Gods qualities and reflecting them fully in thoughts words and deeds came as a light who descended to earth in a time of darkness.

But the caveat is that THERE IS NO OTHER AT ALL! And that we are all just characters being played by the same ONE Creator. So in that sense, the Gurus ARE God.............and so are we, and so is everyone and everything. The difference is that unlike the Gurus we have still yet to wake up within this dream and realize it!! But we are told that we CAN and that is why we are to also try and reflect those qualities in our thoughts words and deeds. And do Simran... (remembrance).

Additionally... trying to state physical incarnations, as something separate from us, gives a very Abrahamic twist to the meaning in Gurbani. Gurbani is much deeper spiritually and tells us that we too can have this same personal connection with God. God is not something separate from us. Its not like Abrahamic religions which teach that God is separate and oversees creation as a separate entity from creation itself. We are told Creation and Creator are one in the same! So you cant look at it in same light as the story of Jesus.

Paapiman??

Edited April 27, 2015 by Satkirin_Kaur

[paapiman]

Are you sure this could also mean something else... remember that metaphor is used heavily in Gurbani...

When one becomes Brahmgiani (and realizes their OWN SELF), they realize the truth about reality and reflect God through their every thought and action. We are told in Gurbani that every one of us IS God and we have just forgotten that fact by this enticement called Maya. We have become immersed in this Ego identity and the 'rules' of this world of Maya. So have become consumed by greed... lust.... anger.... attachment... desire.... but it IS within us to surpass this and 'remember' who we are (simran/remembrance).

The above tuk could just as easily have been saying that Guru Arjun was reflecting the qualities of God through his every thought and action, so that there was no *distinguishable* difference between him and God. It doesn't have to be a literal meaning that he was physically God as in an incarnation. When so much metaphor is used in other shabads, it wouldnt make sense that this one is literal by itself.

I think we have to be careful about not taking everything literal and look for the deeper meaning...

Again, if God is formless and that is the ultimate realizty and everything exists WITHIN God, then no single thing WITHIN a WHOLE could ever = that whole.... If you have a pie, and it's filled with cherries, no single cherry would ever be the whole of the pie. In your dream at night, every character is really you, but no single character in that dream could equal the WHOLE of you. They are just a character being played by you for the duration of the dream. N30 and I have already pointed out the shabad that explains this very clearly on Ang 736.

Further... we are told:

Page 60, Line 13

ਸੋਹੰ ਆਪੁ ਪਛਾਣੀਐ ਸਬਦਿ ਭੇਦਿ ਪਤੀਆਇ ॥

Sohaʼn āp pacẖẖāṇī▫ai sabaḏ bẖeḏ paṯī▫ā▫e.

One who recognizes within himself that, "He is me", and who is pierced through by the Shabad, is satisfied.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਆਪੁ ਪਛਾਣੀਐ ਅਵਰ ਕਿ ਕਰੇ ਕਰਾਇ ॥੯॥

Gurmukẖ āp pacẖẖāṇī▫ai avar kė kare karā▫e. ||9||

When one becomes Gurmukh and realizes his own self, what more is there left to do or have done? ||9||

Page 97, Line 3

ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਘਰ ਮਹਿ ਪਾਇਆ ॥

Parabẖ abẖināsī gẖar mėh pā▫i▫ā.

I have found the Immortal Lord within the home of my own self.

ALSO (Ang 106):

ਘਟ ਘਟ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਵਰਤੈ ਨੇਰਾ ॥

Gẖat gẖat anṯar varṯai nerā.

Deep within each and every heart, He dwells near and close at hand.

ਸਦਾ ਅਲਿਪਤੁ ਜੀਆ ਕਾ ਦਾਤਾ ਕੋ ਵਿਰਲਾ ਆਪੁ ਪਛਾਣੈ ਜੀਉ ॥੨॥

Saḏā alipaṯ jī▫ā kā ḏāṯā ko virlā āp pacẖẖāṇai jī▫o. ||2||

He is always detached; He is the Giver of souls. How rare is that person who understands his own self. ||2||

ਪ੍ਰਭ ਮਿਲਣੈ ਕੀ ਏਹ ਨੀਸਾਣੀ ॥

Parabẖ milṇai kī eh nīsāṇī.

This is the sign of union with God.

ਮਨਿ ਇਕੋ ਸਚਾ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਪਛਾਣੀ ॥

Man iko sacẖā hukam pacẖẖāṇī.

in the mind, the Command of the True Lord is recognized.

No point in debating further on this topic. It will be complete waste of time.

Enough evidence has been provided for a normal person to understand that Satguru Sri Guru Nanak dev jee Maharaaj is God. It is very very clear evidence.

If someone has a doubt on Satguru jee, he/she can follow a different path.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

[CdnSikhGirl]

No point in debating further on this topic. It will be complete waste of time.

Enough evidence has been provided for a normal person to understand that Satguru Sri Guru Nanak dev jee Maharaaj is God. It is very very clear evidence.

If someone has a doubt on Satguru jee, he/she can follow a different path.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

Reread my post I added the exaplanation that casts doubt on your clear evidence... You just replied before I could edit it....

Please know, that I am just trying to get you to read Gurbani for yourself and study it and the deeper meaning, instead of just parroting what someone else told you and taking single tuks to suit your needs.

And yes Gurus were God... and so are we... and so is everyone. The difference is that the Gurus KNEW this and we have to still wake up within the dream.

Edited April 27, 2015 by Satkirin_Kaur

[Lucky]

Not sure why you guys complicate things and cause confusion.....

In the most simplest explanation that I can give -

First,..We ALL have a soul/atman, this is the pure God soul in all of us.,...it is the drop of the ocean...these same atmas, make up the complete paramatma.

HOWEVER, we are here because it is all the game of the MIND..(the mann)

Our mind's are engrossed in maya,...controlled by 5 dhut......not listening to the Atma.

You see, we have a choice whereby we can let the MIND be the master of the soul and let it run free and run the conduct...which makes us manmukh and in complete man-mat.

OR We can make effort to still that running Mind and try to 'merge' it with the ATMA.

This is when the ATMA/PARAMATMA becomes the master of the Mind instead. It then runs all the conduct and one is in gur-mat.

So, the goal for conducting ourselves is to always keep trying to let the Atma/Soul be the master of the mind. But we have to make this same decision using the maya enveloped mind ......so, the REAL IDEA is to.............

.. keep trying to merge and merge this Mind with Atma ..so that it all becomes ONE and the SAME.

This is the 'merging' gurbani talks about.

This is how the MIND recognizes it' origin(mool) and becomes Jyot Saroop...(Mann tu Jyot Saroop hai, apna mool pehchaan)

To conclude,.. understand that YES, we all have the same ATMA-God soul within us.

BUT the GURUS had their MIND'S that COMPLETELY merged in their ATMA,

Their Minds did not have a single ounce of influence from Maya or worldly body.... which is why they could just sit and smile on a hot plate because their ATMA was untouchable.

When Mind is in Maya, that is when it feels pain,joy,sadness, anxiety, worry.....

When Mind is One and the Same merged with Atma,, then it feels none of these, because it is dissociated from body and it's maya surroundings.. Sitting on a hot plate is no pain or torture whatsoever because the atma is unharmed.

We have our Mind's slightly merged here and there, or just a little divine feeling of oneness now and again because our Minds are under heavy influences of 5 dhut and maya.

So, we understand nowhere near about the Atma inside us as the Gurus and some bhagats whose Minds were absorbed in completeness.

quite simply....

GURU= ATMA+MIND are all MERGED into ONE and the same.

Me and You= ATMA + MIND are separate....hence the duality and the ego..

Edited April 27, 2015 by Lucky

[CdnSikhGirl]

Lucky you said the same thing as I did, just in different words!

To conclude,.. understand that YES, we all have the same ATMA-God soul within us.

BUT the GURUS had their MIND'S that COMPLETELY merged in their ATMA,

Their Minds did not have a single ounce of influence from Maya or worldly body.... which is why they could just sit and smile on a hot plate because their ATMA was untouchable.

I don't know why people find this so hard to grasp???

[paapiman]

Lucky you said the same thing as I did, just in different words!

I don't know why people find this so hard to grasp???

Even, I find it so hard to believe, how some Sikhs can question whether Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev jee Maharaaj was God or not, in spite of crystal clear evidence present in Gurbani itself.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

Edited April 28, 2015 by paapiman