Place Of Women In Sikhi?

[CdnSikhGirl]

I realize this is a controversial topic and many on both sides are passionate about their beliefs. But, I am asking this straight out as its own topic because 1) In general Sikhi is touted as an egalitarian and includive religion where everyone are treated equally and this includes gender. 2) There seems to be mized mindset on the place of women in Sikhism in history, and therefore where they should stand today.

Please keep it civilized. I am really interested in the answer because after reading so many negative comments directed at Singhnis on here, the worst of which was that women should view their husband as God (which directly puts women in their place in that one statement doesn't it?), that women should not be able to have the same rights and freedoms in Sikhism that men do, that there should be restrictions placed on Singhnis as to what they are 'allowed' to do regarding religious duties (some reasons given based on certain biological functions, others just because they are women), that women should be at home and not work and under the dominion of their husband and be obedient, that women should be punished for all time for what a few women did or did not do on one specific day (are there any other precedents in Sikhi where we hold people accountable for what their ancestors did or did not do on a specific day or event? This sounds very much like casteism, only it's genderism... where in casteism, someone is held accountable by birth, for simply being born in the same family as their parents who were seen as lowly for their simply being born in a certain family etc.) Also the crux of these, that women were never meant to fully participate in Sikhi at all! (suggestions that women should not receive amrit, or a lesser amrit)

I have become so disheartened with Sikhism because of all these comments. I am now soul searching if this is truly the correct path. On the one hand, I was drawn to Sikhi for its message of equality of all humans... but as a female am I somehow 'less' than human?? Was I given the wrong impression of SIkhism? Am I supposed to consider myself as less than a male or less worthy? If so, does Sikhism consider it a punishment that I was born a female, to be placed for life in a lower position than Sikh men? If it is some sort of punishment, what did I do wrong to be born this way? Seeing these comments almost makes me feel revulsion of my gender. And some days lately makes me feel like I wish I could just peel off this physical shell, like it's a symbol I have to wear of some wrong deed I had done, and have to carry forever as mark to embarass me and feel humiliated for simply being a woman. This is how remarks like the above make many women feel... so don't discount what you are syaing. We have feelings, and we want to be accepted as equals.

So the question is:
What do YOU personally feel is the place of women in Sikhi? Do you believe Sings and Kaurs should be treated equally? (note: treatedequally doesn't have to mean that they are physically the same, just that they should receive equal opportunity with regards to religious duties, and in society in general)? Or do you believe that there should be a heirarchy where males in charge and women follow (Patriarchy model where men are in charge of women, and women obey and have restrictions placed upon them by the men)?

Please answer honestly and include support for your answer with Gurbani. I am not interested in answers that simply state "Because so and so said so, and they are a scholar so it must be true" Scholars can also be mysoginistic / chauvenistic and it's too convenient to insert their personal belief or wishes into what they pass on to others. I am interested in your own reasons, and with direct support from our only Guru, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. This is the only authority we were directly given after Guru Gobind Singh Ji left his physical body. All else were man made and subject to their own interpretation and feelings.

My Own Belief:

My own belief as many of you know, is that of true equality. All humans are equal. The physical shell is illusion and transitory just like the physical world itself. There is only ONE soul within all of us, and this divine light is equal in everyone. In matters of spirituality, gender does not matter as this divine light, our soul, is genderless. So therefore, nobody should be restricted from performing any religious duty based on their biology, which only matters for procreation. If a woman choses to never have a child for example, her biology really doesn't matter (and we have examples like Mai Bhago to prove that determination and courage far outweigh physical limitations caused by Estrogen. In fact, properly trained females are far more agile than men, which makes up for brute strength anyway. In tae kwan do when I took it, I learned moves to take down the biggest of men by using their own size against them.)

Evidence from Gurbani:

God is equally within all:
Page 93, Line 18
ਰਵਿਦਾਸ ਸਮ ਦਲ ਸਮਝਾਵੈ ਕੋਊ ॥੩॥
Raviḏās sam ḏal samjẖāvai ko▫ū. ||3||
O Ravi Daas, one who understands that the Lord is equally in all, is very rare. ||3||

Page 1061, Line 19
ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਪਉਣੁ ਵਹੈ ਇਕ ਰੰਗੀ ਮਿਲਿ ਪਵਣੈ ਸਭ ਵਜਾਇਦਾ ॥੪॥
Gẖat gẖat pa▫uṇ vahai ik rangī mil pavṇai sabẖ vajā▫iḏā. ||4||
The breath flows equally through the hearts of each and every being. Receiving the breath, all the instruments sing. ||4||

Page 223, Line 4
ਨਾਰੀ ਪੁਰਖ ਸਬਾਈ ਲੋਇ ॥੩॥
Nārī purakẖ sabā▫ī lo▫e. ||3||
Among all the women and the men, His Light is shining. ||3||


Evidence that Gurus viewed everyone equally:

ਮੇਰਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਦਇਆਲੁ ਸਦਾ ਰੰਗਿ ਲੀਣਾ ॥
Merā gur ḏa▫i▫āl saḏā rang līṇā.
My Merciful Guru remains forever imbued with the Lord's Love.
ਅਹਿਨਿਸਿ ਰਹੈ ਏਕ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੀ ਸਾਚੇ ਦੇਖਿ ਪਤੀਣਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Ahinis rahai ek liv lāgī sācẖe ḏekẖ paṯīṇā. ||1|| rahā▫o.
Day and night, He remains lovingly focused on the One Lord; gazing upon the True Lord, He is pleased. ||1||Pause||
ਰਹੈ ਗਗਨ ਪੁਰਿ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਸਮੈਸਰਿ ਅਨਹਤ ਸਬਦਿ ਰੰਗੀਣਾ ॥੨॥
Rahai gagan pur ḏarisat samaisar anhaṯ sabaḏ rangīṇā. ||2||
He abides in the Tenth Gate, and looks equally upon all; He is imbued with the unstruck sound current of the Shabad. ||2||

Evidence contrary to the statement that women should view men as God:

The meaning of this shabad taken in context actually uplifts women, and tells them that their identity is not linked to their physical husbands. That they should not kill themselves at the death of their physical husband... That they should take God as their Husband instead, live through the grief and they will be the true 'satee'. So this shabad was meant to uplift women from thinking their worth was directly linked to their husband and gives them their own individual identity and reason to live. One line was twisted in this shabad to state the opposite. To tell women that they were to view their husband as God, goes against the message in the shabad, by reinforcing this view that women's worth was direclty linked to their physical husband.

ਜਲੈ ਨ ਪਾਈਐ ਰਾਮ ਸਨੇਹੀ ॥
Jalai na pā▫ī▫ai rām sanehī.
By burning oneself, the Beloved Lord is not obtained.
ਕਿਰਤਿ ਸੰਜੋਗਿ ਸਤੀ ਉਠਿ ਹੋਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Kiraṯ sanjog saṯī uṯẖ ho▫ī. ||1|| rahā▫o.
Only by the actions of destiny does she rise up and burn herself, as a 'satee'. ||1||Pause||
ਦੇਖਾ ਦੇਖੀ ਮਨਹਠਿ ਜਲਿ ਜਾਈਐ ॥
Ḏekẖā ḏekẖī manhaṯẖ jal jā▫ī▫ai.
Imitating what she sees, with her stubborn mind-set, she goes into the fire.
ਪ੍ਰਿਅ ਸੰਗੁ ਨ ਪਾਵੈ ਬਹੁ ਜੋਨਿ ਭਵਾਈਐ ॥੨॥
Pari▫a sang na pāvai baho jon bẖavā▫ī▫ai. ||2||
She does not obtain the Company of her Beloved Lord, and she wanders through countless incarnations. ||2||
ਸੀਲ ਸੰਜਮਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਅ ਆਗਿਆ ਮਾਨੈ ॥
Sīl sanjam pari▫a āgi▫ā mānai.
With pure conduct and self-restraint, she surrenders to her Husband Lord's Will;
ਤਿਸੁ ਨਾਰੀ ਕਉ ਦੁਖੁ ਨ ਜਮਾਨੈ ॥੩॥
Ŧis nārī ka▫o ḏukẖ na jamānai. ||3||
that woman shall not suffer pain at the hands of the Messenger of Death. ||3||
ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਜਿਨਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਉ ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਨਿਆ ॥
Kaho Nānak jin pari▫o parmesar kar jāni▫ā.
Says Nanak, she who looks upon the Transcendent Lord as her Husband,
ਧੰਨੁ ਸਤੀ ਦਰਗਹ ਪਰਵਾਨਿਆ ॥੪॥੩੦॥੯੯॥
Ḏẖan saṯī ḏargėh parvāni▫ā. ||4||30||99||
is the blessed 'satee'; she is received with honor in the Court of the Lord. ||4||30||99||


Further, the idea for women to prostrate their husband or view their husband as God comes from Laws of Manu, and almost word for word too, therefore it's easy to see that this has crept into the mindsets of some Sikhs:

“A husband should be worshiped as a God.”
“In childhood a female must be subject to her father, in youth to her husband, and when her lord is dead, to her sons; a woman must never be independent.”

[das]

Satkirin_Kaur,

You seem to be considering yourself seeing beyond the physical traits but you end up going deeper into physical aspect. Understand the play, the more you try to go beyond, the more you go deeper into the same which you fight against. It is bound to happen if we don't understand the things properly. So, you end up being on the other side of the argument and NOT going beyond it.

There is a triangle: Neutral (at top) from which comes the duality (Positive and Negative).

First of all, if you've choosen Sikhism just because of the equality concept then from my point of view, its really sad. You can follow any kind of equality by being an atheist; what's the harm in being an atheist? So, again, think about YOUR choice if you're attracted to Sikhism just because of some equality OR because of the Truth?

One should follow any religion (Sikhism being one of them) IFF he/she is looking for some disciple which would eventually lead one to God via some technique.

Now the question of gender equality: There are 2 different points of view. Read this carefully without any prejudice.

1. 1. First point of view is from the Creator's view; i.e in order to reach the Source, gender/caste/creed/karma/good-vs-bad/any-other-duality does NOT matter. It is because all is Him and everyone has equal rights. This is what is taught in real Spiritual schools or in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.
   
2. Second point of view is from the Mind/Time/Kal's view; i.e the entity who is responsible for the working of this universe. He has created a set of rules: karma/duality in every aspect of life. From this point of view, it does matter if a person is born in a criminal enviornment vs the person born in Spiritual family. Now, as per the FIRST point of view, both persons does have equal rights to go the Source but because they are in duality and in the corrupt environment, the person born in Spiritual family DOES have some advantage over the other. Moreover, there are many many other complex patterns that would come into play e.g if the person born in criminal family is inclined towards Spiritualism etc and is attracted to some good person leading him/her to higher spiritual state etc etc.
   
   It (Mind/Time) along with Maya is extremely complex system designed to keep the Souls in regions lower than the 3rd eye. Compare it with the movie "The Matrix 1999". Gender being the part of this system (duality) is bound to have some advantages and disadvantages, so does every man born in different environment. "The Laws of Manu" along with Vedas are part of this complex system; reading them would tell us the working (karma/gender etc.) using which one can go to many heavens but NOT beyond the Mind. Using this system one can understand the working of this universe and can manipulate the things in order to secure the place in some heaven (e.g being a Pativarta - i.e treating your husband as God; charity to poor etc. etc.) but keep in mind that these things might bring a good karma but NOT help you go beyong the entity (Mind) who designed this whole system.

So, if your intention is to reside in 2nd point of view but keep on debating about the equality, then keep in mind that you're going even deeper into mind. Mind is at play. But if your intention is to go to Source, then as per Guru Nanak Dev Ji: "Man Jeetai Jagjeet". It is foolish to debate on something (be it gender, food etc.) which IS different but the difference is NOT binding you to go to the Source.

REMEMBER that we're here to make sure that we break this karma bond and go beyond the Mind; to the Source. This is the central theme of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji where no matter what's your karma/caste/gender/criminal-vs-priest. ANyone can go beyond.

At last, it does NOT mean that one should not take are about the good deeds vs bad deeds because after all we ARE residing in this complex system of Time and Maya; and by using this system (Mind) wisely, one can go beyond. We don't have to fight with the system, just use it to go beyond. Don't indulge in good vs bad; man vs women. Just understand the system (Mind/Time and Maya/Matrix) and remember the Source (from which even the Mind/Time and Maya is created.)

Edited April 29, 2015 by das

[CdnSikhGirl]

Thats all well and good but if the system restricts some and not others... then how do those being restricted surpass it? And it wasnt only the equality... it was the philosophy of ONEness, reality itself that drew me in (but equality was icing on the cake) I could never be athiest because I believe (know) God. Athiest do not believe in God (or any existence beyond this one)

but I just find that at every turn I am being told 'No' because I am female and makes it so difficult that I am seen in this light by others on the same path. It makes me feel so restricted and not respected as an equal in God's eyes. Otherwise why am I told I cant do something simply because I am a girl? Especially when the things I am being told I can not do (or should not do because they were never meant for us mere women like take amrit), how can one use this system to surpass it? There is no choice in that system except to leave that system. That's the only way to surpass it. (Perhaps this is why so many Sikh girls no days are leaving Sikhi and marrying non-Sikhs??)

Yes I believe in total equality... because soul is equal. Duality is fine male/female but both should have equal opportunity. The choice to restrict women is actually in the hands of men... not God. Men can choose to uplift women and see them as equal, or they can denigrate them and treat them as subordinate and not 'allow' them to have equal opportunity.

And reference your example, a person born in a criminal family still has the chance to surpass that criminal lifestyle and is not restricted from doing that. A person born into any other disadvantaged position can strive to overcome that disadvantage, but women have been told a firm 'no' with absolutely no chance to ever surpass that position. So it feels absolutely hopeless...

Do I think in the grand scheme of things that it matters on my own personal spiritual level? No not really.. I don't have to go to a Gurdwara that choses to put me in a subordinate position. I don't have to associate with sangat who think I am lower than them. I can embark on spirituality alone by myself. And I have actually had very vivid spiritual experiences in my life that have given me full understanding of the ONEness of reality. I have already experienced what so many strive for by depriving themselves of things, or following restrictive rules to the point they are barely living... and I experienced them without even trying! They were just a gift direct from Waheguru Ji .... And this without sangat at all... But yet we are told that we should associate with sat sangat...

Of course I know that not all Sikhs think like this or even interpret things in this way. Many many follow SRM and SRM states total equality. But as I said the choice to view women as equals or lesser beings is actually in the hands of the men who choose to think that way, rather than in the hands of God. as luck has it, locally my gurdwara follows SRM and I have been uplifted... I am even on the current management committee. But to know that so many SInghs on here or in the world, view me as linferior and think I should just shut up be quiet and do what I am told, be obedient to the men, view them as superior and like God over me... that really hurts and I don't know what to do right now.

Edited April 29, 2015 by Satkirin_Kaur

[Ragmaala]

Don't be disheartened with Sikhism. The relationship is between you and Guru . You have already quoted excellent examples from Gurbani. So in Gurus eyes you are equal to Him. Why bother about what others think? It is silly, if you are getting disheartened just because you feel you are not equal. Suck it up and stay strong. There are examples in history when individuals have been disowned by their families but they did not leave Sikhi. This is a test. Stay firm.

Sikhi is about developing a relationship with Guru , taking it to love and beyond. Don't be affected by what others think or not. And at the same time keep doing self inquiry within yourself as well. There will always be a clash of opinions and interpretations on any topic. Dont think that you are being though of as an unequal or inferior.

As for Sat Sangat, do sangat of people who increase love for Guru and join you to Guru. For me sat sangat is being in a company of a Sadhu/ Mahapurakh.

Stay in Chardikala. And take a rest from debates for little while.

[BhagatSingh]

How can you obtain equality by focusing solely on disadvantages of women, and on the advantages of men?
That is a completely lop-sided view.

What about the equally important advantages of women and disadvantages of men. You've treated them as if they are insignificant when they are very significant to the way things are and were. I know if will be hard for you to believe but women during 1400s had advantages that men did not. Women in 2015 have advantages that men do not.

Your worldview only looks at one side of the equation, and completely ignores or reduces the importance of the other.

Until you look at the full picture, you are never going to understand things.

[CdnSikhGirl]

How can you obtain equality by focusing solely on disadvantages of women, and on the advantages of men?

That is a completely lop-sided view.

What about the equally important advantages of women and disadvantages of men. You've treated them as if they are insignificant when they are very significant to the way things are and were. I know if will be hard for you to believe but women during 1400s had advantages that men did not. Women in 2015 have advantages that men do not.

Your worldview only looks at one side of the equation, and completely ignores or reduces the importance of the other.

Until you look at the full picture, you are never going to understand things.

We are speaking in terms of Sikhi specifically.... what advantages do I have as a woman over men in Sikhi??? What things can I do in Sikhi specifically that men are not allowed?

[BhagatSingh]

We are speaking in terms of Sikhi specifically....

Be honest. Your are not just concerned with Sikhi specifically.

[CdnSikhGirl]

Be honest. Your are not just concerned with Sikhi specifically.

In this post I am....

[das]

Satkirin, my friend, you again missed the whole point: The system I was talking of was NOT the Sikhism; I was talking about the whole system (Universe and its working).

I do NOT think you can surpass the system (universe and its working i.e Mind and its play via Time and Space) by leaving it. You cannot leave the system no matter what. The ONLY way to surpass the sytem (Mind and its play) is to utilize it and then upon certain level, then go beyond the system (Mind).

The Source via the scripture (Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji) is NOT telling that women canNOT progress in Spiritual path.

As said by other members that:

You should be strong enough and they bother about what other say. But that is possible ONLY if you're really interested in Spiritual path.

Also, accept that you're attracted to Sikhi not because of search of Truth but because YOU personally like some concepts (gender equality or something similar whose root is in duality) defined in Sikhism.

At last, Sikhism does offer equality and teaches that both (man and woman) have equal rights (to reach him). But keep in mind that as we are living in this world of Time and Space where there are certain rules that were created by the Time/Mind and one needs to go by those rules. But these rules in any way does NOT restrict women in reaching Source; it's just that as per these rules of Mind/Time man and woman are different and are created for different purposes. e.g Yin and Yang; they are Opposite, Inter-dependent, Support and Mutual Consumption. They do NOT exist in black and white world.

Again, my intention is NOT to debate, but just trying to show you the nature of this whole world. Nothing more, nothing less.

Edited April 29, 2015 by das

[BhagatSingh]

In this post I am....

Your post begs to differ.

Sikhi is about learning to develop Bhagti through the guidance of a Guru. Bhagti is a tool for self-transcendence.

Bhagti becomes an advantage for those who do bhagti. You have an advantage when you do Bhagti.

That's all it is.

Now you don't stop there. You start bringing in stuff that has nothing to do with self-transcendence, bhagti etc, stuff that is not Sikhi specific.

[CdnSikhGirl]

Actually I was referring specifically to the restrictions I mentioned in the original post... limitations on seva for various reasons, women being told to view their husband as God, suggestions that women were never meant to even take Amrit (or only a lesser Amrit, or that they were only worthy of charan amrit etc. )

[paapiman]

We are speaking in terms of Sikhi specifically.... what advantages do I have as a woman over men in Sikhi??? What things can I do in Sikhi specifically that men are not allowed?

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

Sikh women have great advantages over other women/men.

Quote

Overall, women are far more perceptive than men, and this has given rise to what is commonly refereed to as 'women's intuition. Women have an innate ability to pick up and decipher non-verbal signals, as well as having an accurate eye for small details.

Unquote [1]

In addition to these, women have more seva bhav than men, which implies that they can more seva (major key in Sikhi). Next, they can multitask more than men. Finally, women can take care of babies and children (and make them Gursikhs - Sikh Women), way better than men.

Now, one can say that these abilities will also be seen in non-Sikh women, but Sikh women have a big advantage. The advantage, is the most powerful mantar (Mool Mantar) given to us by Satguru jee. A Sikh woman who does regular jaap of this mantar (in addition to her nitnaym), can strengthen those skills to great levels, which a non-Sikh woman might not be able to do so. Also, most likely, she will be better than a Sikh male, in all the skills mentioned above and possibly reach higher levels of those skills, before a male can do so.

The above reasons clearly prove that a Sikh woman is really powerful.

A sakhi, regarding the power of a Sikh women is below.

If a Sikh women can time/soul travel, she is definitely very powerful.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

[1] - The Definitive book of Body Language

Edited April 29, 2015 by paapiman

[BhagatSingh]

Actually I was referring specifically to the restrictions I mentioned in the original post... limitations on seva for various reasons, women being told to view their husband as God, suggestions that women were never meant to even take Amrit (or only a lesser Amrit, or that they were only worthy of charan amrit etc. )

....So stuff that is not Sikhi specific.

Seva in a gurudwara is to maintain a building.

How wives should treat their husbands, has to do with the well-being of a marriage.

Amrit ceremony was started by 10th guru to recruit warriors to defend the community.

These are not specific to self-transcendence, bhagti, sikhi.

[CdnSikhGirl]

If a woman felt the inner calling to defend the community instead of having babies, she should have been allowed to follow that calling. By the way....You do know that I have spent the last 18.5 years in a career in the military?? And I am awesome at what I do and I have subordinates!

Similarly for all seva. There are no restrictions on Singhs so why is there for Singhnis? If a Singh wants to not do seva, its his choice, if he wants to cook in langar kitchen he can, but if a woman wants to do certain seva she is stopped.

[BhagatSingh]

You do know that I have spent the last 18.5 years in a career in the military?? And I am awesome at what I do and I have subordinates!

Treating others as subordinates? what happened to everybody being equal?

[CdnSikhGirl]

They are equal.. they can work their way to the same rank I am in. That's the difference.... advancement is open to them. However no matter how much I'd like to advance to be able to say for example be Panj Pyare etc in at least several jathas, I would never be able to... no matter how hard I worked at it.

Edited April 30, 2015 by Satkirin_Kaur

[Singh123456777]

The only seva a woman is stopped from is panj pyara seva... Every other seva a woman wants to do they can... You already know my reason for the panj pyara seva..

[BhagatSingh]

They are equal.. they can work their way to the same rank I am in.

No unless you are living in lala land they can't. Unless you died or were removed from your rank. They can't take your place.

What if they all worked just as hard as you, were just as skilled as you. You'd think they'd all be in your rank?

That's not how the world works. Hierarchy is the law. If everyone is a general, no one is a general. Differences in capability, ability, skill, responsibilities, obligations, interests, etc, make up a hierarchical world.

Das kept trying to tell you is just that, that the world operates on duality. There are always differences in people, in relationships and people often polarize further in relationships. Relationships are based on this polarity. Husband wife, elders children, general soldier, guru sikh etc. Each part in the relationship is polarized and each part has its own responsibilities and obligations.

You talk about wife considering husband as God. Everyone should consider everyone as God. That's what Namaskar means. This is the ideal that everyone should see divinity in everyone else and treat them fairly.

In Indian culture-

Children are to consider their parents as God.

Adults have to consider their elders as God.

Children have to look to their parents for nourishment. They have to listen to their parents, once they grow up in to adults they have to take care of their elderly parents.

It's the parents' responsibility to love and take care of their children, and prepare them for adulthood.

But why are children constantly reminded to view their parents as God?

Because usually children are focused on their own play on other children. This is why they must be reminded to pay attention towards their parents.

Similarly in Indian culture-

A wife is to consider her husband as God.

A wife has to look to her husband for nourishment. She has to listen to her husband and create a nice environment in the house for her children and husband. She has to prepare her daughters for adulthood and marriage.

Who is providing for the wife when she is undergoing pregnancies?

It's the husband's responsibility to love and take care of his children and wife and bring in resources for them and to protect them even if it means putting himself in the harms way. He has to train his son for adulthood and marriage. And has to send his daughters away to another home, once they are mature.

But why is the wife constantly reminded to view her husband as God?

Because usually wives are focused on their children and the elders. This is why they must be reminded to pay attention towards their husbands.

Similarly in Indian culture-

A husband is to pay attention to God.

Why is Guru Sahib always reminding the men to pay attention to God, using metaphors of a Pati varta woman?

Because usually husbands are focused on their wives, children and elders. Thus why they must be reminded to pay attention towards God.

Tu data datar tera ditta khawna

You are the giver; whatever You give us, we eat.

This concept of paying attention to the one who is nourishing you, is huge!

The fact that you equate God with something negative is your thinking alone. To see someone as God is the ideal in Indian culture. To see someone as God means to give them your attention. Especially when that someone is providing for you. Naturally if someone is sustaining you, you should give them lots of attention. It's the least you can do.

God nourishes us, that's why we pay Him with lots of attention. In child-parent relationship the parent provides for the child. In husband-wife relationship, the husband provides for the wife. Whoever is providing for you, you should give them attention.

If you don't, it's a lop-sided relationship. It's unfair for the person who is working hard to sustain you. Whoever they are.

Indian society is based on the concept of fairness and reciprocity, and it is the ideal. This where karma comes from. It all revolves around the concept of fairness and reciprocating when someone is providing for you.

Now there's always people who don't fit in. We have many examples of folks who didn't fit in, who just did their own thing. Who left societal norms and lived their own life.

Last time we spoke, I gave you the example of Mira Bai. She was deeply involved in Bhagti and wrote and sang lots of shabads. The life of the householder was not for her. She was devoted to God.

People who are not into society, they leave society and do their own thing.

E.g. Ascetics go off into the jungles, mountains and caves and do their own thing.

But men and women who are sitting in meditation in a cave somewhere cannot create a society. They must come together and take up certain responsibilities, to split up the labour amongst themselves.

Society cannot be built around men and women who do not create a family. So in order for society to go on, their members must have certain responsibilities and obligations. Otherwise it would die off.

This what Indian culture is based around, is creating a fair society, where it's members are treated fairly. Members like Paapiman who are posting here come from this Indian background. They are reciprocating within their society and describing ideal ways for others to reciprocate back.

Taking offense at their statements without understanding their frame of reference is a bad idea.

Edited April 30, 2015 by BhagatSingh

[CdnSikhGirl]

"Paying attention to" is a whole lot different than being submissive, obedient, subordinate. etc. And in Laws Of Manu (which pervaded the thought prior to Guru Nanak's Time) it actually says women are to worship their husband as a God, and in her childhood she is "subject" to her Father, in youth she is "subject" to her husband and after her husband dies she is "subject" to her sons. It further says that women are to never have independence and be obedient at all times (it even says if her husband is a drunk and deviant she is to always be obedient). This effectively put her in position as a slave. So to use this as a 'command' to women in times when that was already the thinking, makes no sense if the meaning was simply to pay attention to him (and I have shown the actual context anyway of that shabad was entirely the opposite, it doesnt actually say to view husband as God. It says view God as your husband - Husband Lord / Soul Bride) but anyway the lawsof Manu. are a far cry from how you are depicting a happy wife who pays attention to her husband who also pays attention to her. Authority wise, husband and wife are equal. There is no heirarchy. One doesn't get to order the other around. Rather decisions should be made together as a team. Nobody has veto power... or else both will want to have that position and both will fight over it.

And to answer your question, yes the subordinates I have right now, may surpass me! In fact there are some who were in the rank below me and are now at the same rank as me, so in military model, EVERYONE has the opportunity to excel and advance. And it comes down to how well you apply yourself, and how hard you work for it. Nobody is forever locked into a position. Strife comes only when you try to forever lock someone in a subordinate position for their whole life simply based on what body they happened to be born in. It's unjust. Everyone deserves at least the CHANCE to advance to leadership. If someone does not posses leadership qualities then fine, at least they were given the chance, or if someone prefers to be a follower. But there are many Sikh women who could be great leaders in the religion, and feel suffocated being locked in a subordinate position simply because of their biology. Luckily here I am encouraged... and currently serve on the management committee.

Anyway we are not referring to society in general but specifically in Sikhi so lets stay within what Gurbani says, and not society in general. All of the restrictions placed on women by certain jathas, do not require a specific gender to perform. Some of these jathas bar women from participating in akhand paaths (you don't require male gender to recite from SGGSJ), chaur sahib seva (again specific gender is not required), palki seva (again, no specific gender is required), kirtan, and so on. Yes, even Panj Pyares. There have been women who have done it (AKJ, 3HO), so obviously it CAN be done by women. And to hold all women responsible and punish them for the inaction of a few on one certain day is unjust, so that reasoning doesn't hold. Same as the argument that Khalsa was originally to create warriors so women shouldn't be given Amrit.... well, if a woman choses that path instead of popping out babies (not fitting the mould as you said, and going her own direction) then she should be allowed to follow that path she feels drawn to, and not restricted. There would still be more than enough women who actually want kids and would not like to fight etc. to build society. You don't need to force women into that role. (Just like if a man wants to be the one to stay home with a child while the wife has the career thats ok too because they CHOOSE that way, and I know families who do this!)

Why do I feel this is important? Because let's say the Khalistanis win someday in the future and a part of India becomes Khalistan... then what version of Sikhism will be installed in this new religious state? Will it be the version where women are not allowed to do anything except langar? Or will it be the version following Sikh Rehet Maryada that assures women can fully participate? Will there be religious 'police' roaming around with sticks to beat any Singhnis who dare to try to do palki sahib seva, or recite Gurbani in Sangat, or do kirtan? (Believe it or not, they are close to it now at Darbar Sahib, where a Singhni friend of mine (Amritdhari, with a dastar) tried to go for Palki Sahib Seva and a Singh went to her husband, would not even acknowledge her... and told her husband to 'control his Singhni' - so they are not far off from that mindset now!) I was told by a Damdami Taksal Singh that women are 'unclean' and should never touch Gurbani... and because the men can never know if it's "that" time or not, women should be barred from touching Gurbani ALL the time (you know, just to be sure no woman ever denigrates Gurbani). <-- this is what he actually told me! He also said because kirtan takes place so close to SGGSJ, women should also not be allowed to do that. (because our "uncleanliness" could somehow drift towards SGGSJ and tarnish it).

Another point to consider is that we tend to respect those that fully participate more. We revere and respect those who who take on the leadership roles, who lead by example, and become a voice for Sikhi. Because women have been repressed from fully participating in Sikhi throughtout history, the majority of the highly respected 'sants' 'scholars' etc are male. If women were encouraged to take on these roles as well from childhood and not pushed to the back seat, we would see more women 'sants' and 'scholars' etc. But women have not been encourgaed to take leadership or influential roles. Instead they were always pushed to the langar kitchen to cook and clean up messes (quiet, submissive, subservient).

This is HUGELY important because many young SIkh girls are straying from Sikhi, or marrying guys from other religions! And the Singhs wonder why?? Have you noticed a surge in recent years of young SInghnis tying dastars and asserting themselves as just as capable and dominent as their brothers? By tying a dastar they are claiming that equal position alongside the Singhs. They don't want to remian silent and subservient any longer. They also want to espouse the warrior spirit... Those who don't, cut their hair, wear makeup, wear saris, and prerty much devolved back into Hinduism (some Sikh women here even participate in some of the Hindu rituals like the moon one). And of those, many call themselves Sikh but rarely come to the Gurdwara, have western boyfriends, and for all intents and purposes leave Sikhi.

If you don't start to consider your sisters as equals, then they actually have the power that within a few generations, SIkhi would no longer exist! Open your eyes its already happening!

[Singh123456777]

Last night before bed I was think about why women can't be in the panj pyara seva... My conclusion is that the guru treats everybody equal... When somebody takes Amrit its a rebirth... They become born again... In life we have two births one is given by a woman and another is given by a man... This is true equality... A man can never give birth to a child... This is fact... So the guru allows men to give the birth through Amrit sanchar..

This is just my opinion and I know satkiran is gonna jump at me like a tiger lol...

[Singh123456777]

Usually the taksali Singh you talk to are wannabe taksali's... Go talk to an elderly taksali and he will clear up everything... There is no stopping from any seva.. The only seva they stop from is panj pyara seva...

[Singh123456777]

Also the people who say that bibi's should not take Amrit are wrong as hell... Pay them no heed...

Also the palki seva is under the sgpc control not taksalis who stopped your friend...

[CdnSikhGirl]

Last night before bed I was think about why women can't be in the panj pyara seva... My conclusion is that the guru treats everybody equal... When somebody takes Amrit its a rebirth... They become born again... In life we have two births one is given by a woman and another is given by a man... This is true equality... A man can never give birth to a child... This is fact... So the guru allows men to give the birth through Amrit sanchar..

This is just my opinion and I know satkiran is gonna jump at me like a tiger lol...

LIONESS - get it right

Actually, physical birth requires BOTH male and female... a woman can not get pregnant alone you know! And Amrit Sancahr is SPIRITUAL rebrith... spirit/soul is genderless. (well, actually in Gurbani we are considered female in spirit, and Akal Purakh is the only male... but I mean physical gender, it's got nothing to do with it) Further God is said to be BOTH the female and the male. Both the cehess board and the pieces... so the physical shell covering the soul has nothing to do with spiritual rebirth. I know you disagree with me... but really... it's not your *male appendage* that's stirring the amrit... in fact your *male appendage* plays no part in the ceremony at all!

We can agree to disagree as long as Sikh Rehet Maryada exists, and there are places I can take Amrit where it doesn't have to be all males. AKJ, 3HO, or even many non affiliated gurdwaras that dont associate with specific jathas at all that follow SRM.

[CdnSikhGirl]

Also the people who say that bibi's should not take Amrit are wrong as hell... Pay them no heed...

Also the palki seva is under the sgpc control not taksalis who stopped your friend...

They are on here!!!!!!! Do a quick search and you find the threads!! (note: Chaupa Singh Rhetnama)

Edited April 30, 2015 by Satkirin_Kaur

[CdnSikhGirl]

Also the people who say that bibi's should not take Amrit are wrong as hell... Pay them no heed...

Also the palki seva is under the sgpc control not taksalis who stopped your friend...

Yes I know... the DDT Singh was the comment about 'uncleanliness' not the incident at Darbar Sahib. That was one of the jathedars there I think... my point was that mindset already exists there.