chatanga1 Posted July 2, 2015 Report Share Posted July 2, 2015 If one wants to become a Sikh, then one has to take Khanday da amrit. There is no other option available. It's pretty black and white in this case.Sikhi is not black and white. There were plenty of Sikhs in history who did not take amrit, some very close to 10th Master. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted July 2, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2015 Sikhi is not black and white. There were plenty of Sikhs in history who did not take amrit, some very close to 10th Master.Can you please provide examples, post-1699? Also, remember, it is possible, they could have taken some other form of amrit.Certain things in Sikhism are pretty black and white, For example, belief in one God, 10 forms of Lord, 5 Kakkars, etc.Bhuk chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BhagatSingh Posted July 2, 2015 Report Share Posted July 2, 2015 I read Bhai Kanhaiya ji did not undergo khande di pahul. Mai Bhago ji as well. Mahant Kirpal Das ji.There's a lot of sikhs who did not take khande di pahul.As for the title.The real meaning of Sehajdhari is one who is immersed in sehaj avastha.The real meaning of Amritdhari is one who is immersed in A-mrityu/non-death/eternal moment.The real meaning of Naamdhari is one who is immersed in Naam simran.If you know the meaning of sehaj, amrit and naam, then you know they all mean the same thing. ;) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted July 2, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2015 I read Bhai Kanhaiya ji did not undergo khande di pahul. Mai Bhago ji as well. Mahant Kirpal Das ji.There's a lot of sikhs who did not take khande di pahul.As for the title.The real meaning of Sehajdhari is one who is immersed in sehaj avastha.The real meaning of Amritdhari is one who is immersed in A-mrityu/non-death/eternal moment.The real meaning of Naamdhari is one who is immersed in Naam simran.If you know the meaning of sehaj, amrit and naam, then you know they all mean the same thing. ;)Bro, Baba Ghanaiya Singh jee was an amritdhari. I confirmed it with a scholar. I think, Mai Bhago jee was amritdhari too. Her name was Mata Bhag Kaur jee. Correct me if I am wrong, the sakhi where Mahant Kirpal Das jee exhibits bravery on the battlefield is pre-1699. He might have taken amrit later.Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BhagatSingh Posted July 2, 2015 Report Share Posted July 2, 2015 Source? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted July 2, 2015 Report Share Posted July 2, 2015 True kattarh panthi revisonism of history in effect...... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted July 2, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2015 Source?There is a book which mentions that. It is somewhere in my house, but I haven't been able to find it.Mahat Kirpal Das jee was pre-1699. His sakhi is mentioned in Guru Balam Sakhian by Bhai Saab Bhai Vir Singh jee. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted July 2, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2015 True kattarh panthi revisonism of history in effect...... Bro, we have to be kattar. The word "Katar" has different meanings. It could mean orthodox, self-righteous and staunch too. Having said that, we should not change historical facts.Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post BhagatSingh Posted July 2, 2015 Popular Post Report Share Posted July 2, 2015 What Dally was talking about was changing facts to suit your own historical narrative.For example, if someone believes that only people who have taken khande di pahul can be a sikh, then they will revise and edit and misrepresent history to show that all sikhs like Bhai Kanhaiya ji, etc took khande di pahul.And they have done this, and many people including me have believed their shit at some point. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted July 2, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2015 For example, if someone believes that only people who have taken khande di pahul can be a sikh, then they will revise and edit and misrepresent history to show that all sikhs like Bhai Kanhaiya ji, etc took khande di pahul. Bro, do you have a source which states that Baba Ghaniya jee was not an amritdhari? Satguru jee even asked one of his Muslim follower to take Khanday da amrit. It would be really surprising, if he did not ask all his existing Sikhs to take amrit.Historical facts must not be changed. If someone does it, then he is not following Gurmat. This should be pretty elementary.Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted July 2, 2015 Report Share Posted July 2, 2015 Can you please provide examples, post-1699? Also, remember, it is possible, they could have taken some other form of amrit.Bhai Nand Lal, Mahant Gurbaksh, are two that come immediately to mind. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted July 2, 2015 Report Share Posted July 2, 2015 What Dally was talking about was changing facts to suit your own historical narrative.It's not factual in the first place. It's an area of Sikh history that is undetermined. From the evidence we have we can surmise, but we should be very careful to reproduce this evidence as factual. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted July 2, 2015 Report Share Posted July 2, 2015 Diwan Kaura Mal is another solid example. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BhagatSingh Posted July 2, 2015 Report Share Posted July 2, 2015 Bhai Nand Lal, Mahant Gurbaksh, are two that come immediately to mind.It's not factual in the first place. It's an area of Sikh history that is undetermined. From the evidence we have we can surmise, but we should be very careful to reproduce this evidence as factual.You know Bhai Nand Lal ji who never underwent khande di pahul is being called Bhai Nand Singh in some circles?They are especially quick to fill in the blanks of course but they also quick to bend and twist written history. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted July 2, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2015 Bhai Nand Lal, Mahant Gurbaksh, are two that come immediately to mind.Baba Nand Lal jee did take amrit, but he was not given the surname of Singh. His name after amrit sanchaar, was Baba Nand Lal jee Mirdhang.Will try to find out about Mahant Gurbaksh jee.Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted July 2, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2015 You know Bhai Nand Lal ji who never underwent khande di pahul is being called Bhai Nand Singh in some circles?They are especially quick to fill in the blanks of course but they also quick to bend and twist written history.Bro, which source says that Baba Nand Lal jee did not consume amrit?Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted July 2, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2015 Diwan Kaura Mal is another solid example. Which Diwan Kaura Mal jee are you talking about? The one mentioned in Sri Guru Panth prakash? Wasn't he a Hindu/Sehajdhari Sikh?Sehajdhari Sikhs don't have to take amrit as they are born in non-Sikh families.Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhKhoj Posted July 3, 2015 Report Share Posted July 3, 2015 Bhai Nand Lal, Bhai Kanhaiya, Diwan Kaura Mal, Moti Ram Mehra, Diwan Todar Mal were all Sehajdhari Sikhs who did not take Pahul. And its Diwan Kaura Mal of Multan, who helped the Khalsa whenever he could.Mahant Gurbaksh Das was the head granthi of Kesgarh post 1699, appointed by Guru Gobind Singh himself.If you read some of the hukamnamas dated 1704 several Sehajdhari (as evident from their name) Sikhs were appointed as head granthis in several towns (Bhai Dharam Chand - Diwan of Guru Ji) & (Bhai Manram of Kurukshetra) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhKhoj Posted July 3, 2015 Report Share Posted July 3, 2015 Which Diwan Kaura Mal jee are you talking about? The one mentioned in Sri Guru Panth prakash? Wasn't he a Hindu/Sehajdhari Sikh?Sehajdhari Sikhs don't have to take amrit as they are born in non-Sikh families.Bhul chuk maafDargah Mal was diwan of 7th to 9th Guru and Dharam Chand diwan of 10th Guru. Dharam Chand was thus born in a Sikh family (their ancestors were Sikhs of the 5th Guru).A Hukamnama from 1704 still refers to Dharam Chand with the same name meaning he did not take Pahul.So, what about your theory now? (source: "Some unknown Hukumnamas of Guru Gobind Singh") 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted July 3, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 3, 2015 (edited) Bhai Nand Lal, Bhai Kanhaiya, Diwan Kaura Mal, Moti Ram Mehra, Diwan Todar Mal were all Sehajdhari Sikhs who did not take Pahul. And its Diwan Kaura Mal of Multan, who helped the Khalsa whenever he could.Bhai Nand Lal jee and Bhai Ghaniya jee were amritdharis. I will try, finding the source.Most likely, Baba Moti Mehra jee, Diwan Kaura Mal jee and Diwan Todar Mal jee were born in Hindu families.Bhul chuk maaf Edited July 3, 2015 by paapiman 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted July 3, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 3, 2015 (edited) Dargah Mal was diwan of 7th to 9th Guru and Dharam Chand diwan of 10th Guru. Dharam Chand was thus born in a Sikh family (their ancestors were Sikhs of the 5th Guru).A Hukamnama from 1704 still refers to Dharam Chand with the same name meaning he did not take Pahul. I don't think, only name can be used as a proof. Anyways, we do have Baba Adan Shah jee and Baba Jagta jee, who were most likely, non-amritdhari.Now, the question is -- can someone confirm that they did not receive any form of amrit? Maybe they did receive amrit, but not khanday da amrit.Bhul chuk maaf Edited July 3, 2015 by paapiman 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted July 3, 2015 Report Share Posted July 3, 2015 Diwan Kaura Mal is another solid example. Diwan Sahib was about 50 years after 10th Master, you know any prominent Sikhs around Guru Ji's time who may never taken Pahul?You know Bhai Nand Lal ji who never underwent khande di pahul is being called Bhai Nand Singh in some circles?They are especially quick to fill in the blanks of course but they also quick to bend and twist written history.I think moreso they are mistaking people. There was more than one Nand Lal at Guru's court. I've read three, but only one with the takhalas of "Goya".One of the biggest bends and twists that has been produced from these quarters is Guru Sahib only had 1 wife. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucky Posted July 3, 2015 Report Share Posted July 3, 2015 One of the biggest bends and twists that has been produced from these quarters is Guru Sahib only had 1 wife.oh no!!!!....don't start that one again :) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted July 4, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2015 Baba Nand Lal jee did take amrit, but he was not given the surname of Singh. His name after amrit sanchaar, was Baba Nand Lal jee Mirdhang.Will try to find out about Mahant Gurbaksh jee.Bhul chuk maafThe reason, Baba Nand Lal jee Goya was not given the surname of Singh (after baptism) was because, he had taken refuge with tenth master to protect his Hindu religion. Maharaaj gave him the surname of Mirdhang, instead of Singh.I did confirm with a scholar - Both Baba Ghaniyaa Singh jee and Baba Nand Lal jee Mirdhang were amritdharis.Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhKhoj Posted July 4, 2015 Report Share Posted July 4, 2015 Name was important. Unlike now, back then only amritdharis used Singh. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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