Sant Hari Singh Ji Randhawale and pissed off members grilling him on woman equality

[paapiman]

BTW it's really not right to create such definition of Sikhi.Afterall if a sikh will not allow other sikh( who is just trying to decide his path) to investigate his views ,then really it's a big sorry from me!!

​Taking Khande de pahul is the mandatory requirement, in order to be called as a Sikh.

Bhul chuk maaf

[sukrit kaur]

To take khande da amrit is just like to step into boat which is going to sachkhand,but the point is one has to sail his own boat.But the people(non amritdhari) who are doing all paath,have high high sharda towards Guru sahib,have true love,live by gurbani are ones who just need to have their boat.But It doesnt mean that they gonna sink..No!! You never know when  Guru Sahib himself comes and himself sail their boats.or they take khande da amrit and take their boats,Means They can be Real amritdharis in upcoming time.

All is dependent upon sailing boats which is through spiritual kamai ,real progress.So to look down upon them is NOT right...

[paapiman]

All is dependent upon sailing boats which is through spiritual kamai ,real progress.So to look down upon them is NOT right...

​We must not look down upon them, but the fact, will remain a fact.

[SAadmin]

Ok guys lets take a deep breath everyone or take a small break to self reflect, will lock this thread later on this evening until we get eye witness account or further analysis. Please send me pm if you have anything significant to add. In the meanwhile, please add your closing statements on this thread.

[Guest]

You guys are forgetting that way back there might not have been proper hygiene products but today there are plenty!  The hygiene products girls can use actually keep the blood inside the body while being used.  There is no chance of any leaking or any blood getting on anything.  Whether sitting on guru jis throne or langar.  I dont want to get into specifics because I am sure you know which products I am talking about.  So maybe once upon a time hundreds of years ago it was more difficult to deal with menstruation, but today its a non issue and should not affect seva at all.  And if someone is really that worried about it, if they are not trying to actively conceive, then they can use hormonal birth control to stop periods all together.  The injection works for 3 months at a time and stops periods completely. And medical science has proven that periods have no biological function outside of making the woman fertile for pregnancy. And it does not hurt the woman to stop them medically.  At all.  In fact this tactic was used for thousands of years with various plants and plant extracts even.  So if menstruation is so unclean, then just take the injection or pills to stop it and only have period if trying to conceive.  

This 'unclean' reasoning is being used by some to bar women from ALL seva at all involving Guru Granth Sahib Ji (because they would never know if a Bibi is on her period or not).  This is ridiculous.  If there is a hard fast rule to not do while bleeding, then I am sure any woman who would be doing this seva would refrain on her own. She doesnt need to be policed by "Babas".  This is wrong and is discrimination.  

But I mentioned earlier about piles and some Sants were known to have suffered from them, but did not refrain from seva themselves.  So how are piles which ooze pus and fecal matter not unclean (oh and also bleed)?  And I guarantee they werent using hygiene products.  Menstrual blood is blood... blood is not unclean, blood is life force.  Snot, feces, pus, urine etc are all waste products.  There is a HUGE difference!  We cant compare them.  

Oh and here is another issue you guys have not even mentioned: Most older men will start to encounter enlarged prostrates by around late 50's.  This causes pressure on 'things' and leakage of fluid regularly from their penis is common.  And this fluid, can contain seminal fluid, pre-seminal fluid, urine etc.  (not to be graphic).  It can also happen to younger men who refrain completely from sexual intercourse, and who do not masturbate because pressure can build from semen production.  This leakage can happen regularly, and at any time. 

So do we start barring all the older Sikh gentlemen from sitting on Guru Jis throne now too? Because semen / urine leakage should be seen as more unclean than blood.  Have you ever heard of older men voluntarily not doing seva because they might leak?  And in the case of men and leakage I guarantee you they will not be using hygiene products like the women do with their periods. So more chance it can leak through their clothes.  

 In fact in uncircumsized males, there is always a bit of 'exudate' hanging around in the foreskin no matter what they do. Just google the word "smegma" and you will find out.  Men always have this... no matter what they do unless they go straight from bath to seva. And even then, its already starting to produce more.  And since we know ALL Sikh men are uncircumsized you get the idea!  

This whole issue on today society with women menstruation is silly.  Use hygiene products and problem solved.  There is no issue anymore in today's world with the hygiene products.  Nobody is 'unclean' anymore.  And maybe men should use the hygiene products too when doing seva!  Especially older men with leakage.  

Sorry to be so graphic but needed to get the picture across!

[paapiman]

To take khande da amrit is just like to step into boat which is going to sachkhand,but the point is one has to sail his own boat.But the people(non amritdhari) who are doing all paath,have high high sharda towards Guru sahib,have true love,live by gurbani are ones who just need to have their boat.But It doesnt mean that they gonna sink..No!! You never know when  Guru Sahib himself comes and himself sail their boats.or they take khande da amrit and take their boats,Means They can be Real amritdharis in upcoming time.

​A person born in a Sikh family and who does not take amrit, is a nigura. Satguru jee states,

ਸੋ ਨਿਗੁਰਾ ਜੋ ਮਰਿ ਮਰਿ ਜੰਮੈ ਨਿਗੁਰੇ ਆਵਣ ਜਾਵਣਿਆ

One who has no Guru, dies over and over again, only to be re-born. One who has no Guru continues coming and going in reincarnation

Bhul chuk maaf

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

[paapiman]

 

 In fact in uncircumsized males, there is always a bit of 'exudate' hanging around in the foreskin no matter what they do. Just google the word "smegma" and you will find out.  Men always have this... no matter what they do unless they go straight from bath to seva. And even then, its already starting to produce more.  And since we know ALL Sikh men are uncircumsized you get the idea! 

 

Smegma is also produced in females. It is also possible that a paathi can start sweating, while doing paath. So what should we do? Stop doing paath at all.

It would be imprudent to compare smegma with menstrual blood. Firstly, the amount produced is very very less, compared to menstrual blood.

Quote

The usual amount of blood loss per period is 10 to 35 ml.[1]

Unquote

Secondly, blood is most likely, more dirty than smegma for a normal human.

[1] - http://www.cemcor.ubc.ca/resources/very-heavy-menstrual-flow

Bhul chuk maaf.

Edited June 6, 2015 by paapiman

[paapiman]

 

So do we start barring all the older Sikh gentlemen from sitting on Guru Jis throne now too? Because semen / urine leakage should be seen as more unclean than blood.  Have you ever heard of older men voluntarily not doing seva because they might leak?  And in the case of men and leakage I guarantee you they will not be using hygiene products like the women do with their periods. So more chance it can leak through their clothes.  

​Even old men who have some medical conditions, should avoid doing seva of Satguru's saroop.

Bhul chuk maaf.

[Singh123456777]

pRQm rihq Xih jwn KMfy kI pwhul Cky ] soeI isMG pRDwn Avr n pwhul jo ley ]
prathham rehith yehi jaan kha(n)ddae kee paahul shhakae ||asoee si(n)gh pradhhaan avar n paahul jo leae ||
To drink the Ambrosial Nectar of the Khanda (Amrit) is the primary instruction for the Sikh. He who abandons all other initiations is truly a great Sikh.

[Singh123456777]

 

Rehat Pyari Mujh Ko Sikh Pyara Nahi 
It is a Sikh's code of conduct that I love, not the Sikh without it.

Rehni Rahe Soi Sikh Mera, O Thakur Me Uska Chera 
One who has discipline is my Sikh, then one is my master and I his disciple.

Rehat Bina Nahi Sikh Akhawe Rehat Bina Dar Chotan Khawe 
Without discipline none shall call you Sikh, without discipline you will keep on getting hurt.

Rehat Bina Sukh Kabhoon Naa Lahe, Taan Te Rehat Su Drid Kar Rahe 
Without discipline you will not be in peace, devoid of discipline, the Lord makes you poor.

[paapiman]

 

Oh and here is another issue you guys have not even mentioned: Most older men will start to encounter enlarged prostrates by around late 50's.  This causes pressure on 'things' and leakage of fluid regularly from their penis is common.  And this fluid, can contain seminal fluid, pre-seminal fluid, urine etc.  (not to be graphic).  It can also happen to younger men who refrain completely from sexual intercourse, and who do not masturbate because pressure can build from semen production.  This leakage can happen regularly, and at any time. 
 

​Males, who have any medical condition, which can result, in an involuntary ejection of fluids like urine, seminal, etc must also refrain from doing seva of Satguru jee's saroop.

These exceptional circumstances cannot be used, to change Gurmat principles.

Bhul chuk maaf.

Edited June 6, 2015 by paapiman

[sukrit kaur]

​A person born in a Sikh family and who does not take amrit, is a nigura. Satguru jee states,

ਸੋ ਨਿਗੁਰਾ ਜੋ ਮਰਿ ਮਰਿ ਜੰਮੈ ਨਿਗੁਰੇ ਆਵਣ ਜਾਵਣਿਆ

One who has no Guru, dies over and over again, only to be re-born. One who has no Guru continues coming and going in reincarnation

Bhul chuk maaf

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

Veer Ji why are you trying me to think that I'm saying this and this is wrong.Actually The entire post was for love towards GURU.,which  definitely means that I was talking to have GUru in life.There are no rules ,that guru ji will only love that particular person .And NO PERSON IS BORN AS AMRITDHARI.You never know the person right now will be a great lover of Guru sahib and a great amritdhari.Try to get what I'm saying.Though I'm not good in expressing views,but Please dont take the matter in different angle.

Gur fateh!!

 

[paapiman]

 And if someone is really that worried about it, if they are not trying to actively conceive, then they can use hormonal birth control to stop periods all together.  The injection works for 3 months at a time and stops periods completely. And medical science has proven that periods have no biological function outside of making the woman fertile for pregnancy. And it does not hurt the woman to stop them medically.  At all.  In fact this tactic was used for thousands of years with various plants and plant extracts even.  So if menstruation is so unclean, then just take the injection or pills to stop it and only have period if trying to conceive.  

​I don' think stopping periods is a great idea. That would mean - going against mother nature. It might have some long term ill-effects on a woman.

Quote

Which is why not all doctors support the idea of menstrual suppression. The key reason is that health implications and long-term effects of continuous or extended hormonal contraception use have not been studied. The effects on bone health, heart health, cancer risks, and fertility are all unknown. There are also additional concerns with regard to adolescent girls and young women who put off menstruation while their bodies are still maturing.

Unquote [1]

[1] - http://www.kotex.com/na/articles-info/putting-off-periods-the-pros-and-cons-of-fooling-mother-nature/10104

Bhul chuk maaf

Edited June 6, 2015 by paapiman

[sukrit kaur]

Guru Sahib while leaving his body,asked sikhs to talk to SGGS everytime in need..So whenever one has lost his way and then he gotta take instructions from Guru sahib.

So I think Gurbani says NOT to look down upon anyone in any manner. Gurbani clearly states that any person who has love in his heart or spiritually enlightened person can meet Guru sahib at any time.To meet Guru sahib means He will def take Khande da amrit.but it doesnt mean that the person before having amrit was totally worthless.It was the worth of his kamai due to which he could take amrit...So I think that never look upon anyone by his physical appearance ...Gur fateh!!

 

 

 

 

 

[sukrit kaur]

​I don' think stopping periods is a great idea. That would mean - going against mother nature. It might have some long term ill-effects on a woman.

Quote

Which is why not all doctors support the idea of menstrual suppression. The key reason is that health implications and long-term effects of continuous or extended hormonal contraception use have not been studied. The effects on bone health, heart health, cancer risks, and fertility are all unknown. There are also additional concerns with regard to adolescent girls and young women who put off menstruation while their bodies are still maturing.

Unquote [1]

[1] - http://www.kotex.com/na/articles-info/putting-off-periods-the-pros-and-cons-of-fooling-mother-nature/10104

Bhul chuk maaf

Yes I agree by it.Will try to talk to my teacher more on this matter.But yes harmonal changes can have adverse effects .Though with leading tech in medicine,it can be minimal,but that will not be suggested if there is any planning for pregnancy in future.

[paapiman]

But I mentioned earlier about piles and some Sants were known to have suffered from them, but did not refrain from seva themselves.  So how are piles which ooze pus and fecal matter not unclean (oh and also bleed)?  And I guarantee they werent using hygiene products.  Menstrual blood is blood...

blood is not unclean,

blood is life force.  Snot, feces, pus, urine etc are all waste products.  There is a HUGE difference!  We cant compare them.  

 

 

​Do you think blood is clean? Then, even semen is clean because it is a life force too.

Btw, human (healthy and lacto-vegetarian) urine can be used in medication. Therefore, it is not completely a waste product. Human (who is healthy and lacto-vegetarian) feces can also be used as a manure, for plant growth.

Bhul chuk maaf.

Edited June 6, 2015 by paapiman

[Guest]

Exactly and since nearly EVERY male from age 50ish onward has some loss of fluid which happens at any time and constantly then no males over 50 should do seva!  Great! ​ Can't wait to tell all the Uncles here they can no longer do seva because they are 'unclean'!

And blood is NOT in ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM more dirty than 'smegma' which is produced in the foreskin because the amount of bacteria present.  In blood there should be NO bacteria, further in females reproductive system is acidic and enzymes kill bad bacteria.  In males, they don't have this. So anything leaking from a man is way more 'dirty' since its loaded with bacteria.  

No we should not refrain from seva all together.  This was the whole point of the post!

Guru Nanak Dev Ji already commented on the utter silliness of these things in Gurbani.  Common sense hygiene is all that is needed.  Wash your hands with soap, use hygiene products to ensure nothing leaks from anywhere. I can guarantee if you have 100 females all on their periods sitting in tabia today, not a single one would have a leak anything because of hygiene products. So there is no issue. None at all!  If someone has a cut finger, put a bandaid.  End of story!    

Menstruation is not seen as unclean in Gurbani at all, in fact its the opposite.  Its only certain jathas which view it as such, so it's not 'Gurmat' principles - its their own principles which have decided that it's dirty.   You can't take a small group of Sikhs with their own (man made) views of what is Gurmat and try to say that is what is Gurmat for the rest of us.  Majority of Sikhs do not follow these groups.  

I can't believe this day and age some still hold these archaic views of women. These are our sisters, our Mothers, our daughters and they have earned the right to have same opportunities as us without being discriminated based on their biology.  You can tell your daughters they are limited and have less opportunity (and I feel sorry for them), but I will never do so with mine. 

[paapiman]

 

And blood is NOT in ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM more dirty than 'smegma' which is produced in the foreskin because the amount of bacteria present.  In blood there should be NO bacteria, further in females reproductive system is acidic and enzymes kill bad bacteria.  In males, they don't have this. So anything leaking from a man is way more 'dirty' since its loaded with bacteria.  

​Are you a medical expert? The information provided above, seems to have a flaw.

Quote

Smegma is clean, not dirty, and is beneficial and necessary. It moisturizes the glans and keeps it smooth, soft, and supple. Its antibacterial and antiviral properties keep the penis clean and healthy.

Unquote [1]

[1] - http://www.foreskin.org/smegma.htm

Furthermore, the amount produced is very less, as compared to menstrual blood by women.

Therefore, we cannot compare sweat, eye fluid, saliva and smegma to menstrual blood.

Bhul chuk maaf

Edited June 6, 2015 by paapiman

[paapiman]

So there is no issue. None at all!  If someone has a cut finger, put a bandaid.  End of story!    

 

​If a person has any kind of a big wound on his body, which can bleed, he should also try to stay away from the seva of Satguru jee. This is common sense.

Bhul chuk maaf.

[paapiman]

 

Menstruation is not seen as unclean in Gurbani at all, in fact its the opposite.  Its only certain jathas which view it as such, so it's not 'Gurmat' principles - its their own principles which have decided that it's dirty.   You can't take a small group of Sikhs with their own (man made) views of what is Gurmat and try to say that is what is Gurmat for the rest of us. 

 

In my opinion (correct me, if I am wrong - I am not a medical expert), Menstruation is as unclean as excretion, urination, vomiting, etc

Bhul chuk maaf

Edited August 5, 2015 by paapiman

[paapiman]

Majority of Sikhs do not follow these groups.  

 

​Where is your proof? Have you taken a survey? Remember, that non-amritdhari Sikhs cannot be classified as Sikhs, by definition. Are you sure, that the Sikhs who follow the so-called SRM, are greatly more in numbers than the ones, associated with orthodox sects of Sikhism (Nanaksar, DDT, Nihangs, Sevapanthis, etc).

Bhul chuk maaf

Edited June 6, 2015 by paapiman

[paapiman]

 

I can't believe this day and age some still hold these archaic views of women. These are our sisters, our Mothers, our daughters and they have earned the right to have same opportunities as us without being discriminated based on their biology.  You can tell your daughters they are limited and have less opportunity (and I feel sorry for them), but I will never do so with mine. 

​Gurmat gives optimum respect to women. A Sikh woman will never ever, do any seva of Satguru jee's saroop, when she is on her periods. She will know that this is common sense.

Bhul chuk maaf

 

 

[Guest]

​In my opinion (correct me, if I am wrong - I am not a medical expert), Menstruation is as unclean as excretion, urination, vomit, etc

Bhul chuk maaf

​I actually AM in the medical field and no blood is not as unclean as those things! If blood is considered unclean then so is skin, hair, etc. since all are just cells with a job to do.  Excrement and urine are byproducts that were never part of the body. 

 

[paapiman]

​I actually AM in the medical field and no blood is not as unclean as those things! If blood is considered unclean then so is skin, hair, etc. since all are just cells with a job to do.

 

​Quote

So, menstrual "blood" is a combination of sloughed off stromal and glandular tissue, broken down vascular cells and blood, and, no, it is not highly oxygenated (it's kind of darker than normal blood. It doesn't carry any "decoded DNA". It's basically a waste product at this point, dead, dying and no longer functional tissue.

Unquote [1]

[1] - http://biology.stackexchange.com/questions/21357/what-is-the-difference-between-regular-blood-a-womans-and-a-virgins-menstrual

 Excrement and urine are byproducts that were never part of the body. 

 

​Even though, urine and excrement are byproducts, they still can be used in certain applications. I am not sure, if menstrual blood can be used anywhere.

Bhul chuk maaf

[Guest]

​Gurmat gives optimum respect to women. A Sikh woman will never ever, do any seva of Satguru jee's saroop, when she is on her periods. She will know that this is common sense.

Bhul chuk maaf

 

​Your idea of so called Gurmat gives women 'optimum respect'?  I don't see much respect going on at this site for women.  Unless your idea of 'optimum respect' means Singhni are inferior to us?  I read your past posts about Gursikh women being required to bow to Gursikh men to show respect.  So where's this 'optimum' respect? That doesn't make sense unless your idea of 'optimum respect' means treated as a servant? A slave? Someone beneath us? The same respect that a King would give to a servant? Or a master to a salve? 

Why do I deserve more respect than my wife? Really!?? Yes I work, but she does too. In addition to that, she has to suffer with these things that u want to judge women as being unclean for. She has to go through menstruation, gestating our daughter for 9 months, going through excruciating pain to bring our daughter to this world, then she has to suffer with sore breasts from breast feeding. I try to pitch in, but nothing I can do will ever in a million years equal what she had to endure. Yet, somehow I am entitled to more respect in our faith than she is? Simply because I am male? Why is this?  If you ask me, women deserve more respect than us because they have the hard job, they are the ones who have to often sacrifice their own dreams for the sake of their children while we get to follow ours, they are the ones who have to endure real physical pain, on a scale that men are simply not equipped to handle.  And then we want to hold those things which they have to endure and that makes them strong (those things which we should actually revere them for) we want to hold those very things against them in order to restrict them, limit them, suppress them, take away rights from them that we get to enjoy, and then tell ourselves that it's because we are male and we deserve more respect than they do?   

Maybe because I live with all females, I have more compassion for them, but I dont understand how Singhs can sit there saying their so called 'Gurmat' gives women 'utmost respect' and then in the next sentence state that this so called 'Gurmat' demands women bow to men out of respect, and see them as (I believe your words were) a demi God.  You paapiman, are a hypocrite of the highest order!  I really pitty your wife (if you are married at all)  This is not what our Gurus wanted! This is NOT what's written in Gurbani.  Man made rules, not based on Gurbani, but based on personal views and fear of the feminine principle. It's funny how those very feminine qualities of empathy, compassion etc. are what we are reaching for to merge with Akal Purakh, but at the same time we want to supress our sisters, mothers, wives and daughters and force them into submission because they by their very nature posses these things greater than we do.  While we are trying to control and dominate everything (even other males), females naturally show more compassion, more empathy, than we do and will actually put these into practice long before we will because its already in their nature.  Because of this, they are closer to Waheguru than we are!  We should be bowing to them, not the other way around. 

I don't have a problem at all fully supporting my wife and daughter and I would never tell either of them they are limited in anything, least of all because they have to endure monthly cycles! And I am no pansy either so don't think that I am 'whipped' or a girly man or whatever you might want to call me.  I call things like they are.  

These limitations imposed on women are MAN MADE. NOT from Gurbani!!! The idea that ANYTHING is unlcean or impure is meaningless when you realize that Waheguru IS everything!  If we want to show respect sure, and be clean physically sure.  A bath is sufficient, along with hygiene products.  No blood will escape the body while wearing those hygiene products.  There is VIRTUALLY 0 chance that anything would leak out of their clothing.  While it may have been an issue several hundred years ago to control bleeding, it is not so now.  This archaic thinking needs to stop.  And I AM in the medical field, so trust me!  And I am old enough to have had sufficient time to analyze all these things for myself.