Prem Sumarg: my view

[SikhKhoj]

This topic is solely on Prem Sumarag. What do you think of my view and especially the last point, which might not be a solid one standing independently but it needs to be taken into consideration.

Regarding Prem Sumarag, there is not a single manuscript of the early 18th century, its all hearsay or this scholar claimed this or that. No proof or locations of such manuscripts are provided. Only existing MS are from the 19th century. I do not believe in hearsay, and nor should you. Atleast if you try to be objective.

Mcleod has a strong opinion that the first chapter might have been appended later to the Prem Sumarag, a view I share because several manuscripts with only 1 Chapter of Prem Sumarag exist. Besides that the Nitnem is repeated once in Chapter 1 and then in Chapter 6, the Nitnem in Chapter 6 does not specify which bani to do in morning but it says 'read from the Granth Pothi (SGGS)'. Therefore the main Prem Sumarag text does not mention the DG as much, the Bachitar Natak evening Nitnem is only there in Chapter 1 and not Chapter 6.

Besides that Prem Sumarag is a Granth dating to the Misl period or after because it mentions Kalals when it mentions other Sikh 'groups'. Kalals were practically unknown and too few in numbers to be mentioned amongst the other groups. Even in the British census they formed about 0.004% of Sikhs in 1881, which is too insignificant. The Kalals only became known after Jassa Singh Ahluwalia, before that there is not a single prominent Kalal Sikh and they have always been numerically insignificant till Misl period. This is my own observation not based on any other scholar.

[Singh123456777]

You have many views but what if all of your views are wrong? 

[SikhKhoj]

It is possible. Anything is possible.

bhoolan andar sab ko, abhul guru kartaar

[Singh123456777]

It is possible. Anything is possible.

bhoolan andar sab ko, abhul guru kartaar

My point is that in the other topics you put down people and called them names for having differing views and even though you might be wrong.  

[SikhKhoj]

Ego. Need to work on that.

Edited July 29, 2015 by SikhKhoj

[Singh123456777]

Yes you do.

[SAadmin]

Please stick to the topic, for normal gossip - please take it over pm or our new chat feature on top left.

[dalsingh101]

Besides that Prem Sumarag is a Granth dating to the Misl period or after because it mentions Kalals when it mentions other Sikh 'groups'. Kalals were practically unknown and too few in numbers to be mentioned amongst the other groups. Even in the British census they formed about 0.004% of Sikhs in 1881, which is too insignificant. The Kalals only became known after Jassa Singh Ahluwalia, before that there is not a single prominent Kalal Sikh and they have always been numerically insignificant till Misl period. This is my own observation not based on any other scholar.

Don't be silly.

The way Panjabis love alcohol, I'm sure Kalals were well known well before Jassa SIngh Ahluwalia.

 

The were probably the olden days equivalent of Off licenses. They might have been a small group but that doesn't mean they weren't a well known feature of society.

[SikhKhoj]

Don't be silly.

The way Panjabis love alcohol, I'm sure Kalals were well known well before Jassa SIngh Ahluwalia.

 

The were probably the olden days equivalent of Off licenses. They might have been a small group but that doesn't mean they weren't a well known feature of society.

1. Sikh Kalals were not huge in number even in the 1800s. According to a British census they accounted for less than half a percent of the Sikh population, which is insignificant.

2. The absence of any prominent Kalal Sikhs from 1469-1708 shows that the caste was underrepresented amongst Sikhs and, keeping the 1881 census in view too, did not have much converts to Sikhi.

3. The fact that Jassa Singh himself was from a Hindu background should also be taken in the above context (i.e. not Sikhs since generations like the others).

4. The passage I am referring to is the following:

Whenever this is necessary, let it be done as follows: Khatri can marry
Brahman. Arora can marry Khatri. Suniar can marry Arora. Sud can
marry Arora. Kamboh can marry Kaith. Kamboh can marry Suniar. Jat
can marry Kamboh. Chhimba, Dhobi, and Kamboh can intermarry
Kalals can also intermarry with any of this latter group.

5. Lets see some of the other groups mentioned regarding SIKH marriage Rehat:

Khatri: Gurus were from Khatri background
Brahmin: Bhatts from this background, Chibbers, Bhai Mati Das, Bhai Sati Das, Bhai Piraga etc
Jat: do I even need to explain?
and so on, each caste mentioned is prominent because many famous Sikhs were related to it OR they constituted a major part of our qaum, but the same cannot be said for Kalals; there is no prominent Sikh Kalal pre Jassa Singh nor were they numerically significant (even till 1881 or now for that matter) to even be mentioned amongst the various groups of Sikh intermarriages.

6. Name me any prominent Kalal Sikh prior to Jassa Singh ?

Edited July 30, 2015 by SikhKhoj

[SikhKhoj]

This is an important though:

Mcleod has a strong opinion that the first chapter might have been appended later to the Prem Sumarag, a view I share because several manuscripts with only 1 Chapter of Prem Sumarag exist. Besides that the Nitnem is repeated once in Chapter 1 and then in Chapter 6, the Nitnem in Chapter 6 does not specify which bani to do in morning but it says 'read from the Granth Pothi (SGGS)'. Therefore the main Prem Sumarag text does not mention the DG as much, the Bachitar Natak evening Nitnem is only there in Chapter 1 and not Chapter 6.

Why would the Rehat author write about Nitnem in detail in chap 1 (from ishnaan to banis) and again nitnem details (somewhat different to the one in chap 1, but again from ishnaan to banis) in chapter 6? For me it is even more interesting because Chapter 1 says to read Bachitar Natak while the 6th chapter only tells you to read from the Granth Pothi (GGS).

[SikhKhoj]

 

 

A comparison. Dally, does this make sense?

CHAPTER 1

Let the person who seeks deliverance hear [what follows J. Sri Akal Purakh
has commanded that the person who seeks release should rise for those
most tranquil of hours, [the three hours which constitute] the last watch
of the night. Having arisen he should bathe with cold water. Ifhe should
find cold water disagreeable to his body let him warm the water before
pouring it on his head and washing with it. If the water is not fresh, it
should [always] be warmed before being used. If for any reason this
cannot be done, or if [ sufficient] water is not available, or if there is any
reason why the body [should not be bathed], then wash only the mouth,
hands, feet, and lower portion of the legs. Then recite the divine Name,
'The holy Name, the holy.'
When doing so, hold the hands in fi-ont of the face [with palms respectfully
joined]. Having repeated the divine Name seven times, cleanse your
entire body, from head to toe, with appropriate gestures, [washing it
with the divine Name] as one would bathe it with water. Then shall
your body be purified. This method, however, should be used only if
water is not available or if the body cannot tolerate it. Perform this bodily
discipline during the tranquil hours of the last watch of the night. Recite
Japuji and Jaap five times [each], and likewise Anand. If there should
happen to be any purpose relating to your ordinary evelyday life which
you wish to achieve, recite [the couplet] from Arati which refers to the
lotus-feet [of Sri Akal Purakh] and touch the ground with your forehead.
Having thus prostratcd yourself, stand up and repeat Ardas8 Mter
completing Ardas, [you will find that] the objective which you wished
to achieve will be completely fulfilled, regardless of how difficult or simple
it may have beeu. If [on the other hand] you are thoroughly at ease and
have no such purposes to pursue, then read from the Pothi Granth [a
selection of! the bii~' delivered for our instruction by the Gurus, from
the first Master to the ninth. [Having done this] recite the lotus-feet
[couplet] from Aratl and touch the ground with your forehead. Let your
humble petition be:
'Grant to me, a [miserable] renegade, the blessing of the divine Name,
That effortlessly, with every breath, I may recall the Guru.'
Having offered this petition and attained peace of mind, arise and proceed
to [the day's] labours. But keep the beloved words of the Guru (bii~'
shabad) ever with you. The Word is the Guru, [your] intelligence (surali)
its disciple. Recite it with undivided devotion. 2.
The second precept oj the Rahit
[The Guru] commands: If it is [already] the second watch of the day
[when you awake] wash your hands, feet, and legs and recite Japu[jI]
and Jaap once each. Then proceed to your labours. Anyone who does
not know how to recite [these works] should first wash his hands
and feet, and then observe the following ritual. First he should call to
mind Sri Akal Purakh. Next he should repeat the divine Name. !fhe
requires no purification, he should silently recite the following seven
times from memory:
Sri Vahaguru Akal Purakhji, I cast myself on Thy protection.
1 O[ankar]. There is one Supreme Being, the Eternal Reality, the Creator,
without fear and devoid of enmity, immortal, never incarnated, self-existent,
known by grace through the Guru. 1
No visible sign, neither caste nor lineage; no colour to describe, neither features
nor attire. You are the Eternal One, self-enlightened, and ofinfinite power. Immortal
One above all others, Monarch of all and Ruler of the three worlds; Eternal Creator,
supreme over all beings, demon, human, and divine; your nature affirmed by the
mantle of the forest, your infinity proclaimed by eVCIY blade of grass. Who can
recount your names, Eternal One? Your deeds alone reveal you to the wise. 2
Recite this. It confers the same merit as a complete recitation ofJapu[jI]
andJip. If you have any essential purpose [to be fulfilled] and [byway of
offering your petition] can recite no more than this let it suffice. For it
to be effective, however, it is essential that it be recited in accordance with
the ritual here specified. A thousand other things can be neglected [but
not this]. 3.
The third precept of the Rahit
An hour before the close of day, recite the Sodar Rahiriis. At its conclusion
repeat Japu[jI] and Jaap, and touch the ground with your forehead. Then
offer any petitions [which you may wish to make, and conclude by] saying:
I am a transgressor, [all] glory is yours.
Do with me as seems good to you.
Your disposing is joy to me; let your divine Name dwell in my consciousness.
On your protection I cast myself 3.
The fourth precept of the Rahit
[The fourth precept] is as follows. When night comes and all worldly
activity has been put aside turn to reciting compositions (bat:ti) by the
Gurus, [recite works by all] the Masters, from the first to the tenth[
Guru Gobind Singh's] Bachittar Natak and works from the [Adi] Granth
by the other Masters. Sing kirtan. If drowsiness overtakes you, recite
Kiratan Sohila, meditate on Yah Guru, and sleep. Breathe viih from your
navel as you inhale andgurt1 as you exhale. [Thus you shall continue to]
repeat 'Vah Guru' and your deep consciousness (surati) shall remain
ever awake. Review the day's deeds as you [drift into] sleep. Do not let
your mind wander to other things. The person who discharges this
precept, whether man or woman, shall achieve deliverance and shall
know the joy of [belonging] to the Panth of Sri Guru Akal Purakh.

 

 

CHAPTER 6

He who is a Sikh of Sri Akal Purakh's Khalsa should arise during
that fragrant early-morning hour, which is the last watch of the
night. L
First proceed to the open fields and, having there performed your
daily bowel motion wash your anus with water and blow [on it] hard
from above [to dly it], How should it be washed? It should be washed
as one would wash a piece of soft leather. Having clone S0, thrust your
finger in [the soil] seven times, 2,
When you urinate wash your penis also, Then rub your hand in earth
and wash it three times, Next wash [yourlegs] from knees to feet, Thus
it should be done, 3,
Next use a [frayed] stick [to clean your teeth], Wash out your mouth
and repeat the Guru's name. 4.
Then bathe, [ensuring that] your hair is washed in clean water, W"sh
in water [equivalent in volume to] the contents of seven small water pots,
each holding seven seers, 1 5, .
Then repeat the Gur-mantra2 and recite portions from the sacred
scripture (shabad bal,l'!). 6.
At the beginning of the first watch of the day, perform kirtan. Intone
one or two shabads from the Granth (granth pothi) as the Guru directs.
[Finally], read the blessed Arati and proceed with your daily labour. 7.
[At midday], after two watches of the day have elapsed, wash your
hands, mouth, feet, and legs up to the knees, and recite the Sodar Rahiras.
In the evening, repeat the Gur-mantra. 8.
At night recite shabads and sing kirtan. 9. When the need to sleep grows
strong recite the Kirtan Sohila and retire. As you drop off to sleep fix your
mind on Sri Vahiguru Akal Purakh. 10.1

 

Besides the inconsistencies and slightly differing banis (particularly no DG in Nitnem of Chapter 6) it is interesting to observe why the author would mention about ishnaan in detail twice and again write about the nitnem? Perhaps the chapter 1 being independent is a possibility. Chap 1 has a similar language though but seems to be more of a 'complete rehatnama' (albeit less detailed than the prem sumarg) in itself

Edited July 30, 2015 by SikhKhoj

[Guest taksali]

Prem Sumarag Granth is Gurbani written by Dasam Pita and should be worshipped alongside like Adi Granth

[SikhKhoj]

Dhan Dhan Sri Prem Sumarag Granth Jee Maharaaj

[SikhKhoj]

Dally what say about the chapter 1 (vs chapter 6) etc

[dalsingh101]

Dally what say about the chapter 1 (vs chapter 6) etc

I'd have to look at the original Gurmukhi text to answer.

[amardeep]

Mcleod has a strong opinion that the first chapter might have been appended later to the Prem Sumarag, a view I share because several manuscripts with only 1 Chapter of Prem Sumarag exist

Apart from the one British translation from the 1840s mentioned by Mcleod, which manuscripts are you refering to here? And how many ?

 

Besides that Prem Sumarag is a Granth dating to the Misl period or after because it mentions Kalals when it mentions other Sikh 'groups'. Kalals were practically unknown and too few in numbers to be mentioned amongst the other groups. Even in the British census they formed about 0.004% of Sikhs in 1881, which is too insignificant. The Kalals only became known after Jassa Singh Ahluwalia, before that there is not a single prominent Kalal Sikh and they have always been numerically insignificant till Misl period. This is my own observation not based on any other scholar.

How many Kalals should there be before they are allowed to be mentioned in the Prem Sumarag?

The caste of many early Gursikhs is unknown as well as disputed. Bhai Mani Singh for instance is claimed to be a Kamboj, Rajput and Jatt. In actuality we probably dont know the caste of many of the early Sikhs and knowing how many early Sikh authors "pumped up" their own caste and people by including their own caste-brethren into their writings,- and since we dont have a single granth and hereby voice of the Kalals in early litterature - it would be difficult to estimate how many they were in the early 1700s.

 

The Prem Sumarag in general is full of contradictions between the different chapters throughout. Its a common feature - nothing unusual about that. But i'll take a closer read at it when I have time, quite busy these two days.

[chatanga1]

This topic is solely on Prem Sumarag.

Why not just add to the already existing thread on "Prem Sumarg" on this forum?

[Guest]

This topic is solely on Prem Sumarag. What do you think of my view and especially the last point, which might not be a solid one standing independently but it needs to be taken into consideration.

Regarding Prem Sumarag, there is not a single manuscript of the early 18th century, its all hearsay or this scholar claimed this or that. No proof or locations of such manuscripts are provided. Only existing MS are from the 19th century. I do not believe in hearsay, and nor should you. Atleast if you try to be objective.

Mcleod has a strong opinion that the first chapter might have been appended later to the Prem Sumarag, a view I share because several manuscripts with only 1 Chapter of Prem Sumarag exist. Besides that the Nitnem is repeated once in Chapter 1 and then in Chapter 6, the Nitnem in Chapter 6 does not specify which bani to do in morning but it says 'read from the Granth Pothi (SGGS)'. Therefore the main Prem Sumarag text does not mention the DG as much, the Bachitar Natak evening Nitnem is only there in Chapter 1 and not Chapter 6.

Besides that Prem Sumarag is a Granth dating to the Misl period or after because it mentions Kalals when it mentions other Sikh 'groups'. Kalals were practically unknown and too few in numbers to be mentioned amongst the other groups. Even in the British census they formed about 0.004% of Sikhs in 1881, which is too insignificant. The Kalals only became known after Jassa Singh Ahluwalia, before that there is not a single prominent Kalal Sikh and they have always been numerically insignificant till Misl period. This is my own observation not based on any other scholar.

You have no faith but only views full of doubts.  Kintoo prantoos will not lead you to experience the Truth.  Not very good to be a doubting Thomas is it? Your doubts are going to take you so far away from the Truth and you will have to ask for a blessing to be brought back at their kamal charrans/charran kamal.

[SikhKhoj]

I have faith, not blind faith.

I believe Guru Nanak turned Mecca, and no the real Kaaba & not your mind or whatever crap missionaries invent. I believe in Naam Simran.

[SikhKhoj]

I'd have to look at the original Gurmukhi text to answer.

Then do it, because I have a feeling that the first chapter somewhat contradicts the sixth chapter, and even if it doesn't do so explicitly, what was the need to give the daily routine so detailed twice in a same work (right from waking up to sleeping)?

 

[SikhKhoj]

Apart from the one British translation from the 1840s mentioned by Mcleod, which manuscripts are you refering to here? And how many ?

 

How many Kalals should there be before they are allowed to be mentioned in the Prem Sumarag?

The caste of many early Gursikhs is unknown as well as disputed. Bhai Mani Singh for instance is claimed to be a Kamboj, Rajput and Jatt. In actuality we probably dont know the caste of many of the early Sikhs and knowing how many early Sikh authors "pumped up" their own caste and people by including their own caste-brethren into their writings,- and since we dont have a single granth and hereby voice of the Kalals in early litterature - it would be difficult to estimate how many they were in the early 1700s.

 

The Prem Sumarag in general is full of contradictions between the different chapters throughout. Its a common feature - nothing unusual about that. But i'll take a closer read at it when I have time, quite busy these two days.

British Translation is from 1809-1815 period.

I don't know how many Kalals but you are missing my point. The author is talking about inter-caste marriage within Sikh Panth, why the hell would he mention Kalals if they're NEITHER represented by numbers in the Panth NOR by prominent figures. You have to admit that all other castes/varn mentioned are quite prominent both in number and/or representation amongst famous Sikh personalities. But in Kalals we see a lack in both, the most prominent and first Kalal being Jassa Singh, who himself was born to non Sikh parents.

[amardeep]

Okay and how many manuscripts are there with only the first chapter ?

Your point is fair but the intention of the author does'nt appear to be name dropping/caste dropping of all the famous SIkhs around . The number of Brahmin Sikhs was also quite small yet they are mentioned in there. Nothing in the texts suggests that the author is only mentioning "famous" castes.

Like i've said - there is lots of repition and contradiction in the Granth. Especialy in the chapters on political rule. The first chapter and the last seem to be prologue and epilogues making it a whole.

 

Again: How many manuscripts are there with only the first chapter? And how many manuscripts are there lacking the first chapter?

Edited July 30, 2015 by amardeep

[SikhKhoj]

Okay and how many manuscripts are there with only the first chapter ?

Your point is fair but the intention of the author does'nt appear to be name dropping/caste dropping of all the famous SIkhs around . The number of Brahmin Sikhs was also quite small yet they are mentioned in there. Nothing in the texts suggests that the author is only mentioning "famous" castes.

Like i've said - there is lots of repition and contradiction in the Granth. Especialy in the chapters on political rule. The first chapter and the last seem to be prologue and epilogues making it a whole.

 

Again: How many manuscripts are there with only the first chapter? And how many manuscripts are there lacking the first chapter?

* Mcleod says 2 manuscripts.
* Brahmin Sikhs were few? Maybe, but they were overrepresented in famous personalities. All Bhatts were Brahmins. Most prominent warriors of Guru Hargobind: Bhai Piraga was Brahmin, Mati Das, Sati Das, Chaupa Singh, Gurbaksh Singh Chibber were all Brahmins. Kirpa Singh Dutt was a Brahmin.

So my theory makes sense; either numerically important or either important contribution in terms of sacrifices or sidak (as proven above).

* Why would you detail daily routine in epilogue and then repeat in chapter 6 with same things (wake up, shower, meditate, work ...)

* Sadly Mcleod could not confirm his theory because independent 1st Chapter Granths exist but no Granth is found without the first chapter

 

[amardeep]

Okay two manuscripts seem to be awfully little evidence to build new theories on. Especially if there are'nt any manuscripts that lack the first chapter.

Again: how many Kalals and famous kalal personalities should there be before they were allowed to be mentioned in the Prem Sumarag? Nothing suggests the author is name/caste dropping.

[SikhKhoj]

Okay two manuscripts seem to be awfully little evidence to build new theories on. Especially if there are'nt any manuscripts that lack the first chapter.

Again: how many Kalals and famous kalal personalities should there be before they were allowed to be mentioned in the Prem Sumarag? Nothing suggests the author is name/caste dropping.

It is not little evidence because the total number of Prem Sumarag manuscripts does not exceed 7-8 as far as I know.

Well is there even one famous Sikh Kalal pre Jassa Singh?