paapiman Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 (edited) Sangat jee - Some anti-Gurmat (statements against Sikh principles) were made in the post below. They have been addressed below. Quote3. Though Panj Pyaras were five males that day, the Gurdwara where I took it, has had a woman do this seva before. Further to this, the five addressed the women who took Amrit that day. They said there is absolutely NO limitations placed on women in Sikhi. They directly stated "Women who attain this level can just as easily be in the same place we are" Even better, they then made a direct challenge to the women present with this statement "We want to see at least some of you Singhnis who are here today, be in the same place we are and do seva as Panj Pyaras someday!" As if my day was not already awesome, THAT WAS ICING ON THE CAKE THAT MADE IT SPECTACULAR!UnquoteAsk those people, what about disabled people? Why cannot they be in Panj Pyaray? Why the Hypocrisy? Ask them, who has given them the right, to change the maryada made by God? What about Transgenders and Homosexuals, as Panj Pyaray? They are human too. An Egalitarian is suppose to stand up for these people too. Quote4. They also clarified some things: You do NOT have to be vegetarian. It's your choice if you are (I am) but if you choose to eat meat, it can not be killed the Muslim way. UnquoteAccording to the so-called SRM, a Sikh may consume non-Halal meat. This would indicate that Sikhs can consume beef. Imagine the level of blasphemy in this. Sikhs, in the past, have sacrificed their lives for cow-protection, yet nothing is mentioned about beef in this so-called SRM document. This is another major flaw in the so-called SRM. A person, who truly believes in this so-called SRM, should not have any problem with consuming beef, otherwise he/she is being a hypocrite. QuoteThey also stated that piercings are not allowed because of the association to slavery in the past, UnquoteSikhism is a universal religion, and cannot be bound to history or time. There is a greater reason to why piercings are not allowed, rather than it just being associated with slavery. Most likely, body piercings were done in India, even before foreign powers started ruling India. Quote however all other jewelry is perfectly fineUnquoteSikhs should not wear any jewelry. This is mentioned in DDT RM. QuoteMakeup is also not prohibited. UnquoteMake-up is clearly prohibited by Satguru jee. This is also mentioned in DDT RM. QuoteAnd besides, I had more control over his movements, than he did of mine, since I controlled the slack in the palla and could make him move slower or faster based on how much slack I let get in it. So when Singhs spout that lavans having the male in front is to denote the male's authority that she is supposed to be subject to... I laugh. I had control over his movements, he didn't have control over mine lol. To me it's more like a horse and chariot rider... where the male is the horse, pulling the chariot rider to the destination, but the chariot rider is the one who was in control LOL. UnquoteThe above is a bad example, from a Sikh and Egalitarian perspective. A person, who truly believes in equality, will never give this example. If one does, that he/she is a Hypocrite. This analogy proves that females should control men, illustrating inequality and is completely against Sikh way of thinking.Most of us know, what holding a palla means. The woman, holding the palla, signifies that she will follow her husband. QuoteMy husband suggested I should stop coming here... as certain mindsets will never change and it's so not worth it to stress over opinions of others. UnquoteYou are right. Sikh mindset (based on Sikhism) will never change, how hard outsiders try. QuoteMeat they said its your choice but if you do eat meat it can not be ritualistically sacrificed and killed as Muslims do (and I guess Kosher too for same reason).UnquoteThe main sect of Sikhism, which allows meat eating, is Nihang Singh. They sacrifice the animal ritualistically too and a Sikh is only permitted to eat that. No other commercial meat, Halal/Kosher or otherwise, can be consumed by a Sikh. Jhatka maryada is not even mentioned in this so-called SRM document. Another major flaw. QuoteThey only referred to Sikh Rehet Maryada. And this is at a historical Gurdwara. UnquoteMany historical Gurudwaras, especially in Punjab, are under SGPC control and the so-called SRM has been enforced there. If Nihangs or Nirmalay had control over Gurudwaras, then the RM would have been different. It all depends upon, who is in power. A heretic, like Dhunda has spoken at Gurudwara Bangla Sahib (historic temple). Does that make him right? Massa Ranghar (who consumed Alcohol and made prostitutes dance) had control over Golden temple. Does that make him right? QuoteInterestingly they also said its prohibited to follow ANY sects (when they were mentioning sects which have been excommunicated like nirankaris etc). UnquoteSant Nirankari cult has been excommunicated from the Panth, not the Nirankari sect. DDT, Nanaksar, Nihangs Sewapanthis, etc, have never been excommunicated by the Panth. Sects were blessed by Satguru jee themselves. Tenth master gave a boon to Baba Kanahiya jee Maharaj (founder of Sewapanthi) that he will make a new sect. Panth is the tree and the sects are like the branches of it. If one says, that Satguru jee made a Panth, but no sects - it is similar to saying that God made the tree, but did not make it's branches, fruits, flowers, etc.Even if some fools get together and ex-communicate DDT or Nanaksar, Sikh religion (made by God) will still flourish. QuoteThey said follow SRM and SGGSJ only. So there... I am BOUND following SRM and no other RM as that's what Panj Pyaras specifically stated when I took Amrit!!! UnquoteThe so-called SRM has major flaws. Therefore, a person who completely agrees with all the points in that document, is not a Sikh. Panth's ultimate authority is Gurbani (which includes SSGGSJ, SDGSJ, etc) Bhul chul maaf Edited September 21, 2015 by paapiman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnSikhGirl Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 (edited) I will never follow DDTs Women denigrating RM. I am not some subordinate to my husband. If holding palla indicates he is in charge she must follow as you say then Sikhi is only for men and women are seen as inferior and only to be controlled by men. You just stated that it's wrong to say women should have any control but it's ok for men to??? What a hypocrite you are!!!!!!!!!! I'm actually really tired of your women denigrating comments and ideology. Go pound sand Paapiman and take your DDT Maryada with you!!! ( which you self admittedly don't even follow 100% as you see DG on equal level with SGGSJ while DDTs RM says to only see SGGSJ as only Guru) The Panj Pyaras present last week had a bazillion times more bhagti than you ever will! If DDTs ideology on women was enforced by Akal Takht I'd leave Sikhi, as putting humans into heirarchies and status levels with women at the bottom is not good for my spiritual advancement and is against what our Gurus taught about equality. They spoke out against putting people into neat little self serving heirarchies where some benefit more than others and at the disadvantage of those others. Case in point women serving men as God is self serving lie created by men wanting to keep women in control so they can benefit from it. Of course men want women to follow and be obedient. Who wouldn't want an automatic servant (a free one at that who also satisfies physical needs)??? I'd like a servant myself who obeys my every whim! So of course men will propagate and support any ideology that they themselves benefit from!!! Well not all men as some have seen the self serving lies for what they are and now support women equality in Sikhi as SGGSJ teaches and instructs. Sorry but God would not want half the human population in submission to the other half. This is men's ideology not Waheguru's.Again go pound sand... And take your DDT RM with you. Ps I'm blocking you after I post this. Edited September 21, 2015 by Satkirin_Kaur Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted September 21, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 Gurparsad, a detailed and comprehensive post will be made. listing all the flaws in this so-called SRM.Bhul chuk maaf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 Good Lord Paapiman, you are one funny guy. LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Koi Posted September 21, 2015 Popular Post Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 Paapiman, agree to disagree, and let this go.You've both presented your points of view, now let it rest (maybe? ).;) 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Crystal Posted September 21, 2015 Popular Post Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 Papiman, why so obsessed with satkiran? Let's just ignore her if we cannot agree with her views. It's childish, we all have a different opinion, nor can we change someones. I am a jhatka eating, bhang drinking sikh, no one will convince me otherwise what I do is wrong. Those who disgree...well let them jump in a ditch. Let's all concentrate on ourselves rather than others. Bhul chak marf Crystal 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted September 21, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 I will never follow DDTs Women denigrating RM. I am not some subordinate to my husband. If holding palla indicates he is in charge she must follow as you say then Sikhi is only for men and women are seen as inferior and only to be controlled by men. You just stated that it's wrong to say women should have any control but it's ok for men to??? What a hypocrite you are!!!!!!!!!! I'm actually really tired of your women denigrating comments and ideology. Hold the palla of a Gursikh male, not of a ordinary human like me. Also, it does not mean that the female has no right to speak. Maryada has been made by God. We cannot change it. Go pound sand Paapiman and take your DDT Maryada with you!!! ( which you self admittedly don't even follow 100% as you see DG on equal level with SGGSJ while DDTs RM says to only see SGGSJ as only Guru) It is not my maryada. It is the maryada made by our Satguru.If SDGSJ is not equal to SSGGSJ, then why did you take amrit, where more Gurbanis from SDGSJ (3) are recited to prepare it, than SSGGSJ (2)? If DDTs ideology on women was enforced by Akal Takht I'd leave Sikhi, as putting humans into heirarchies and status levels with women at the bottom is not good for my spiritual advancement and is against what our Gurus taught about equality. They spoke out against putting people into neat little self serving heirarchies where some benefit more than others and at the disadvantage of those others. Case in point women serving men as God is self serving lie created by men wanting to keep women in control so they can benefit from it. Of course men want women to follow and be obedient. Who wouldn't want an automatic servant (a free one at that who also satisfies physical needs)??? I'd like a servant myself who obeys my every whim! So of course men will propagate and support any ideology that they themselves benefit from!!! Well not all men as some have seen the self serving lies for what they are and now support women equality in Sikhi as SGGSJ teaches and instructs. The equality in SSGSJ refers to spiritual equality, not physical. Physical differences cannot be completely ignored, while on the spiritual journey. A Sikh male will always guide his wife in the right direction and respect her. He will never ever treat her like a servant. The Panj Pyaras present last week had a bazillion times more bhagti than you ever will! Do you know, who the authors of DDT RM are? They were Brahamgyanis and most likely, had way more Bhagtee than the five Singhs combined together, from whom who took Amrit. Sorry but God would not want half the human population in submission to the other half. This is men's ideology not Waheguru's. Respecting one's spouse is submission? So when a adult son bows to his mother, is he being submissive? Again go pound sand... And take your DDT RM with you. Try to understand with a cool mind. If you cannot see the problems associated with the so-called SRM, it is really surprising. Do you think, God-made maryada will have major flaws? Anyways, when you reach higher spiritual levels, you will realize the true path. Bhul chuk maaf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted September 21, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 (edited) Papiman, why so obsessed with satkiran? Let's just ignore her if we cannot agree with her views. It's childish, we all have a different opinion, nor can we change someones. I am a jhatka eating, bhang drinking sikh, no one will convince me otherwise what I do is wrong. Those who disgree...well let them jump in a ditch. Let's all concentrate on ourselves rather than others. Bhul chak marf CrystalCrystal paaji, new points have come up - make-up, jewelry, beef and body piercings. It would be good to discuss them through Gurmat goggles.Bhul chuk maaf Edited September 21, 2015 by paapiman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnSikhGirl Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 (edited) Paapiman, agree to disagree, and let this go.You've both presented your points of view, now let it rest (maybe? ).;)Agreed. There are obviously MANY Sikhs who agree with and follow SRM - probably more than that follow DDT's RM. I'd like to see Paapiman go to Srinagar, ask to speak to the five who were Panj Pyaras that day and tell them to their face what he posted in here. They'd laugh him all the way back to DDT. In my understanding, our Gurus taught us to fight against any ritual or tradition which are unfair and wrong. This includes any which have crept into Sikhi or else we are hypocrites! IF as Paapiman says, the lavans with male in front is to show that the female will follow obediently her husband, then it's unfair and wrong tradition which is perpetuating inequality and inferior place of women and SHOULD be challenged just as our Gurus told us to challenge things which are unfair and unjust!!!!However, I think there is deeper meaning to it that has nothing to do with women having to always 'obey' and 'follow'. From what I understand it's a metaphor, similar to the death / rebirth in amrit sanchar. You are playing out an allegory.... of soul bride following husband lord. Using the male in front is only to use the allegory of human marriage to parallel the marriage of the soul to Waheguru Ji. Everything in Gurbani deals with our personal journey towards merging back with God. In this sense, it's not saying the wife has to be obedient and follow her husband like some slave. It's just using a human situation to create an allegory to get the point across of the soul following husband lord. It's not to put the wife into a position of subordination to her husband. If it is being interpreted as such then that needs to be stopped as we are suppose to fight against anything unjust and unfair. As for meat there is an entire shabad where Guru Nanak Dev Ji talks about the hypocrisy of those who claim to not eat meat but then sacrifice animals to God as if it will somehow earn them spiritual kuddos. He was speaking against it and there is no definitive tuks speaking against eating meat. If you take one liners out of context then sure you can find almost anything in Gurbani. But in context, you have to read what its saying and see that it's the hypocrisy our Guru is speaking against and not the meat eating. (However I am and will always be vegetarian for personal reasons). Same with jewelry, where Gurbani says let naam be your jewelry etc. It's not saying do not wear jewelry... or else those tuks saying let namm be your clothing also mean we should walk around naked?? Is clothing prohibited in Sikhi??? Of course not! What Gurbani is saying is don't dress up in expensive clothing thinking that outward appearance and show will get you to Waheguru, as Waheguru cares only about our inner show... our thoughts, our deeds, our intentions towards others... because it's about our soul not this temporary illusion of an existence in a fake shell body.... so wear jewelry, wear clothing, etc. But don't use it as a show, or dress up for God thinking that will get you there. In my opinion the opposite is just as bad.... thinking that simply by NOT wearing jewelry will get you to Waheguru is also just as bad! It's the exact same thing!!! Using some outer appearance or show to win the favour of God. But these outer appearances are all illusion. Of course the kakkars are different, as they have deeper meaning, and are used as a beacon so anyone can recognize a Sikh. They are not being used as a display of any wealth or dressing up to please God. They have both practical usage and spiritual meaning behind them. So don't try to twist this saying that we don't need kakkars then either... I have blocked Paapiman, so I cant see his replies. He can choose to follow rigid rules etc all he wants and he can keep treating women like dirt if he wants - it's his choice and his journey to Waheguru. I am confident that's not what will get him there though. I will follow SRM, and spiritual interpretation. There are plenty of Sikhs who agree and follow SRM only. ALL of Kashmir for one. I will NEVER EVER EVER EVER follow any RM which puts any human, including women lower than any other human. I will never support any RM which treats women like men's subordinates and personal servants. As for the argument that DDTs RM is from God pls consider this.... The only thing in existence is God. All else is illusion. We are even all characters being played by God and nothing more. And this is in Gurbani (see shabad about actor staging the play and playing the parts of all the characters but when the costumes are removed then we see they were all played by the same one actor) therefore ALL RMs are created by God. Edited September 21, 2015 by Satkirin_Kaur Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crystal Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 Gaa di rakhiya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted September 21, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 Gaa di rakhiya That's right bro. Cow protection - one of the commandments of Satguru jee.Namaskar Sri Kharag kooAkaaaaaaaaaaaaaaalBhul chuk maaf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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