chatanga1 Posted January 30, 2016 Report Share Posted January 30, 2016 9 hours ago, paapiman said: Chatanga1 Paaji - Are you referring to the line below? "Dasam Katha Bhaagaut kee Bhaakhaa Karee Baneye" If it is, this line is in Sri Rehraas Sahib jee (Nanaksar Maryada). Most likely, Nihangs read it too. It is not present in Pothis published by DDT. Yes thanks, I have read the Nanaksar Rehras only a few times, but couldn't remember where I had read it. I looked in Taksal Rehras as well and "Bhagaut" is mentioned there as well but not as this line. 3 hours ago, amardeep said: @chatanga the line is from Sri Krishna Avatar in the Chaubis Avatar section of the Dasam Granth. Thanks. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BhagatSingh Posted January 30, 2016 Report Share Posted January 30, 2016 7 hours ago, Ragmaala said: What about the theological structure within Sikhism, where the main focus is Guru Nanak & Guru Granth Sahib only. Here Waheguru Nirankar is Guru Nanak & Guru's Guru is Sri Guru Granth Sahib. For example, in Nanaksar Samparda, the two great saints, Baba Nand Singh Ji & Baba Ishar Singh , focused most exclusively on Guru Nanak as Nirankar/God & Guru Granth Sahib as Guru. They advocated dhyan of Guru Nanak, and worship of Guru Granth Sahib as physical body of Guru Nanak. They advised there is nothing beyond Guru Nanak, & he is your only goal, his darshan & his lotus feet. By doing his dhyan you will go straight to Sachkhand. I guess the above would also classify as a theological structure within Sikhism, right ? I like this term theological structure. So maybe this is "Nanakism". ? Yea good point. The Nanaksar Sampardya's structure fits into the following poem by Kavi Kalya ji. And also the related Vaar by Bhai Gurdas ji. I would not consider this is a completely separate structure for that reason because it's part of a this larger structure that is established in Guru Granth sahib. I would say Nanakism is what we call Sikhism these days ( and Sikhism is actually referring to a generic Guru-Sikh relationship, could apply to any tradition in the world), and Nanaksar Sampradya is a part of Nanakism. Anyways. In Guru Granth Sahib, Kavi Kal ji says - ਸਤਜੁਗਿ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਛਲਿਓ ਬਲਿ ਬਾਵਨ ਭਾਇਓ ॥ In Satyug, You (Vishnu, the one who resides everywhere) enjoyed deceiving and liberating King Bali in the Vaman avtar. ਤ੍ਰੇਤੈ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਘੁਵੰਸੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥ In Treta, You loved being called King Ram, of the Raghu Dynasty. ਦੁਆਪੁਰਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਮੁਰਾਰਿ ਕੰਸੁ ਕਿਰਤਾਰਥੁ ਕੀਓ ॥ In Dwapar, You, Krishan Murara, killed Kans and saved everyone. ਉਗ੍ਰਸੈਣ ਕਉ ਰਾਜੁ ਅਭੈ ਭਗਤਹ ਜਨ ਦੀਓ ॥ You granted Kingship to Ugrasain and elevated your devotees. ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਣੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰੁ ਅੰਗਦੁ ਅਮਰੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥ In Kaliyug, You came as Guru Nanak Dev, Guru Angad Dev and Guru Amar Das. ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਰਾਜੁ ਅਬਿਚਲੁ ਅਟਲੁ ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖਿ ਫੁਰਮਾਇਓ ॥੭॥ The rule of Guru Sahibs is unchanging, unmovable, by His very command. Guru Nanak never considered himself to be Hari, he said to worship Hari naam and Ram naam. And Guru Granth Sahib is mostly about that. However, Guru Sahib's Sikhs do consider Guru sahib to be Hari and they say to worship Waheguru naam. They sort of carry forward with the last lines of this shabad. So that means this structure is a part of a larger one talked about in Guru Granth Sahib. It's not fundamentally different from it, the way Dasam Granth is. Also keep in mind that many traditions consider their Guru to be God e.g. Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, who was present at the time of Guru Nanak, his Sikhs consider him to be God, and even non-Indian religions like Christianity, consider their Guru, who is Jesus, to be God. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted January 30, 2016 Report Share Posted January 30, 2016 (edited) @BhagatSingh The Guru Granth Sahib does indeed take a strong Vaishnava outlook,- however it is also evident that the divine is not restricted to a vaishnava outlook. People from different traditions describe the divine according to their vocab, understanding and metaphors known. If you compare the bhatt bani of Guru Granth Sahib with the Persian poetry of Bhai Nand Lal you will notice that the ghazals and other Guru ustat compositions does not take on any form of vaishnava outlook. Instead they take up a 'Islamicate' and 'Persianite' outlook where the Guru is contrasted with the famous kings and emperors of the Shahname etc. However - regardless of this difference in outlook,- the bhatt poets and Bhai Nand Lal are both describing the Guru! It sounds like a cliché but the message inherent in Gurbani is that the divine is all and people approach the divine from different angles according to their background, language, vocab known etc.. In the Sri Dasam Granth you see an inclusive mystical universe of Indic thought ranging from the outlook of the shaktas, vaishnavas shaivas etc. However, - they are all describing the Divine - as the divine of Sikhi incorporates all these different outlooks into one coherent outlook! I see the Sri Japuji Sahib stating the same thing - ਗੁਰੁ ਈਸਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੋਰਖੁ ਬਰਮਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਪਾਰਬਤੀ ਮਾਈ I asked Niddar Singh Nihang about why there is such a vast outlook of different approaches in the Sri Dasam Granth. He said that it was a political move of Guru Gobind Singh as a way of uniting the Indian "hindus" under the banner of Dharma! Telling them to unite and fight the opressors! Whether the Sri Guru uses the Puran avatar of the Vaishnavas, Shaktas or Shaivites - you'll notice that the teaching given to the reader in all of the banis is to rise and fight!!! On a larger scale - according to Niddar Singh - the whole of the Dasam Granth is a politically unifiying scripture that seeks to establish bridges between thee major panths of India - a unity which was needed in order destroy the Mughals.. Edited January 30, 2016 by amardeep 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BhagatSingh Posted January 30, 2016 Report Share Posted January 30, 2016 Day before yesterday Dally told me I move too fast through this stuff and lose everyone in the process. He told me to go slowly and explain everything one by one, so I'll try and do that. 4 hours ago, amardeep said: @chatanga the line is from Sri Krishna Avatar in the Chaubis Avatar section of the Dasam Granth. Yea Bhagawat is a masculine noun, in Chaubis Avtar it is referring to Krishan ji. (Also see the text - Bhagawat Gita) Bhagawati is a feminine noun. It is referring to Devi. And you know what is interesting in Chaubis Avtar? It's right at the start. The author starts off with ਅਥ ਦੇਵੀ ਜੂ ਕੀ ਉਸਤਤ ਕਥਨੰ ॥ so that the reader knows this is written by a Devi bhagat (otherwise, you would think that someone writing about Krishan ji, is a Krishan bhagat). This tells us clearly which theological structure the author prescribes to. Just like - ਏਕ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ੍ਨੰ ਤ ਸਰਬ ਦੇਵਾ ਦੇਵ ਦੇਵਾ ਤ ਆਤਮਹ ॥ ਆਤਮੰ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਬਾਸ੍ਵਦੇਵਸ੍ਯ੍ਯ ਜੇ ਕੋਈ ਜਾਨਸਿ ਭੇਵ ॥ This tells us which theological structure the author prescribes to. 4 hours ago, amardeep said: @BhagatSingh The word Bhaugati is used in 18th century litterature as a signifier of a sword. This can be seen in the Prem Sumarag Granth as well as the Kharkha Guru Gobind Singh Ji ke of Chandrasain Sainapati. Also as Raagmala has shown, the word is used as sword in the apochrypha Bhaugati Astotar. Yes the way Mahakal*/Shri Kaal* (masculine nouns) is Shri Kharag* (Khanda), Bhagawati (feminine noun) is Talwar. The weapons are their symbols. (Btw these are Shaiv and Shakat religions respectively.) * See Bachittar NatakWhy is sword their symbol? Mahakal and Bhagawati (Chandi) are destroyer God and destroyer Goddess. They create, preserve and destroy and all that but they are ultimately destruction. That's why Mahakal, is called Mahakal, meaning the great death. And a Sword is a symbol of destruction, of death, so it is an appropriate symbol. But the type of sword matters. On one hand you have a khanda and on the other hand you have a talwar.Why is the difference between khanda and talwar? Traditionally, Kharag/Khanda is straight so it's considered masculine, hence it is a name of Mahakal. A talwar is a curved so it is considered feminine so it is a name of Bhagawati. The gender of the sword, mirrors the gender of the deity that the sword is representing. So you don't want to get your swords mixed up. Always remember - Some swords are male and some swords are female. ;) 4 hours ago, amardeep said: As the Guru does namaskaar to the sword in the manglacharan of Chandi Di vaar it shows a continuity with the other writings of Sri Dasam Granth Sahib where the manglacharan also contain a namaskaar to the sword (Bachitar Natak, Akal Ustat,Shastarnaam Mala Granth etc.). This sentence below is the key to understanding why Bhagawati is not referring to just a sword. ਖੰਡਾ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮੈ ਸਾਜ ਕੈ ਜਿਨ ਸਭ ਸੈਸਾਰੁ ਉਪਾਇਆ ॥ This line tells us that Bhagawati (divine feminine) is being talked about during the entire Intro. Bhagawati creates the Khanda. The masculine symbol is being created, so the creator must be feminine. Bhagwati creates her opposite and when you have masculine and feminine, then you have the play of the universe. (The opposite of this is Guru Granth Sahib, Hari (masculine) creates Maya (feminine) and with that we have the play of our universe.) Bachittar Natakਨਮਸਕਾਰ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਖੜਗ ਕੋ ਕਰੋਂ ਸੁ ਹਿਤੁ ਚਿਤੁ ਲਾਇ ॥ What type of sword is this? Straight sword. So this is a male deity. How do we know this is not just a sword? Read the next few lines - ਸ੍ਰੀ ਕਾਲ ਜੀ ਕੀ ਉਸਤਤਿ ॥ ਖਗ ਖੰਡ ਬਿਹੰਡੰ ਖਲ ਦਲ ਖੰਡੰ ਅਤਿ ਰਣ ਮੰਡੰ ਬਰ ਬੰਡੰ ॥ I understand that's a lot of take in Bhaji so I'm gona stop there. 4 hours ago, amardeep said: regarding the Sri Bhagavad Gita topic, you turned it into a discussion on the authorship of the Sri Dasam which I could'n be bothered with at the time, so thats why I did'n reply. Sorry about that bhaji. I just needed space to put down some thoughts. I wanted you to carry on with the parallels and give more examples. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BhagatSingh Posted January 30, 2016 Report Share Posted January 30, 2016 22 minutes ago, amardeep said: He said that it was a political move of Guru Gobind Singh as a way of uniting the Indian "hindus" under the banner of Dharma! the whole of the Dasam Granth is a politically unifiying scripture that seeks to establish bridges between thee major panths of India - a unity which was needed in order destroy the Mughals.. Bingo! So once you understand fully what's going on, then you look at our history on a whole other level. PS these "panths" are not sects or small things, these are distinct and enormous theological structures, under which you have multiple religions. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted January 30, 2016 Report Share Posted January 30, 2016 I find what you write interesting but I dont think there is such a sharp distinction in the Sri Dasam Granth. I think the 'male' and 'female' swords are mixed up as a way of showing unity and oneness. It might also be a way of destroying the current Indian thought that sought to divide, seperate and classify. By the Guru using the swords interchangeably he is also presenting the Sikh expression of the divine at the same time. I will see if I can find some examples of this. My knowledge of weaponry is quite limited I must admit so will probably take some time as I need to research the roop of the sowrds, but hopefully others here who knows more will be able to find examples of where swords (representing male/female) are mixed up showing that ultimately its all one, and hence does'nt matter. Shiv Shakti is one. Regarding the word Bhaugati: as mentioned, it means a sword in the Chandi Di Vaar and it thereby fits in with other writings of the Dasam Granth where the sword is also being invoked prior to the composition being started. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BhagatSingh Posted January 30, 2016 Report Share Posted January 30, 2016 The mixing is a separate religious structure in itself. ਸਰਬ ਕਾਲ ਹੈ ਪਿਤਾ ਅਪਾਰਾ ॥ ਦੇਬਿ ਕਾਲਿਕਾ ਮਾਤ ਹਮਾਰਾ ॥ Like the Hari-Hara group.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harihara 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted January 30, 2016 Report Share Posted January 30, 2016 2 minutes ago, BhagatSingh said: Bingo! So once you understand fully what's going on, then you look at our history on a whole other level. PS these "panths" are not sects or small things, these are distinct and enormous theological structures, under which you have multiple religions. But this does'nt imply that we are talking about more authors than one. The Guru is approaching the divine through the vocab, understanding, theology of the different Indian Panths. In the same way as in the Sri Zafarnama Guru Gobind Singh approches the divine through Islamic terms NOT ONLY in the language but also in the theology. There is nothing un-Islamic in the Zafarnama, but I dont think anyone would claim it was written by a Muslim due to this. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted January 30, 2016 Report Share Posted January 30, 2016 Nothing un-Islamic in the theology of the Sri Zafarnama*** 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BhagatSingh Posted January 30, 2016 Report Share Posted January 30, 2016 7 minutes ago, amardeep said: But this does'nt imply that we are talking about more authors than one. The Guru is approaching the divine through the vocab, understanding, theology of the different Indian Panths. In the same way as in the Sri Zafarnama Guru Gobind Singh approches the divine through Islamic terms NOT ONLY in the language but also in the theology. There is nothing un-Islamic in the Zafarnama, but I dont think anyone would claim it was written by a Muslim due to this. It's in the way it is done. Look at Bhagat Nam Dev ji's "allah tu gani" shabad, and Bhagat Kabir ji's "awal allah noor upaya". But when we read the rest of their writings, we know these guys not Muslims, they are strict Vaishnus. In case, you are wondering - Also with the Muslims, Allah is a generic word meaning "the deity". It is like the word Bhagwan. With our people, you have specific flavours of Bhagwan and specific flavours of Bhawani. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted January 30, 2016 Report Share Posted January 30, 2016 (edited) If the God of Dasam Granth/Sikhi is both male and female (hereby transcending gender) then it does'nt matter if some compositions praise God through masculine terms while others praise God through feminine terms and others are praising both interchangibly (like in the devi ju ki ustat kathanan example you gave). Both are ustat of the same One. Made simple: It's like me. When gore people ask me if I believe in God i sometimes to confuse them say "Yes I believe in her and she is the creator of all"... At other times I say yes I believe in him - he is the creator of all.... Im still talking about the same one God. This is the outlook of the Sri Dasam Granth - masculine, feminine all combined. You can take one bani and dissect it and play it up against another bani to find contradictions, - but these contradictions only exist because you dont look at them as a united whole. Edited January 30, 2016 by amardeep 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BhagatSingh Posted January 30, 2016 Report Share Posted January 30, 2016 No you have to keep in the mind the context and previous traditions. Dasam Granth was not written in a vacuum. Parts of it are direct translations of previous scriptures. 7 minutes ago, amardeep said: Both are ustat of the same One. Every religion is the ustat of the same one. But how do we identify different religions? Identify the religions below - (Allah - Al ilaha, the deity) Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Mohammad Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Krishna Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Mahakal Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Yeshua Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Bhagawati Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted January 30, 2016 Report Share Posted January 30, 2016 The Shastarnaam Mala Puran begins with Sri Bhaugati ji sahai but most of the sword then appears to be the masculine ones. How do we make sense of that according to your interpretation above? Also - can you outline how you classify authorship of the different banis of Dasam Granth so far? Like this for intance: Chaubis avatar - written by a devi worshipper Charitro Pakhyan - written by a shiva worshipper Jaap Sahib - written by a Sikh etc etc. Then we can try and proceed from there. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BhagatSingh Posted January 30, 2016 Report Share Posted January 30, 2016 19 minutes ago, amardeep said: The Shastarnaam Mala Puran begins with Sri Bhaugati ji sahai but most of the sword then appears to be the masculine ones. How do we make sense of that according to your interpretation above? Read the Bachhitar Natak. The sword that is Shri Kaal's symbol is Kharag, and is referred to as Shri Kharag. Shri Kharag is not referring to just a sword. It is referring to "Shri Kaal, whose symbol is the sword". Sudarshan Chakra is not referring to just a chakra weapon. It is referring to "Shri Vishnu, the vision of whom (swa-darshan) is symbolized by the chakra". Coming back to your question. Once I analyze Shastarnaam mala, I can answer your question. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BhagatSingh Posted January 30, 2016 Report Share Posted January 30, 2016 13 minutes ago, amardeep said: Chaubis avatar - written by a devi worshipper Charitro Pakhyan - written by a shiva worshipper Jaap Sahib - written by a Sikh Let's be clear on this. They are all written by sikhs of the Guru (Nanak - Gobind) or the guru himself, or translations of another text by Guru Sahib's sikh or himself. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BhagatSingh Posted January 30, 2016 Report Share Posted January 30, 2016 @amardeep What if a writing started with "Shri Yeshua ji sahai"? Never mind the contents of the writing. You don't think that's being written by a Punjabi Christian? But I get what you are saying too bro. Let me talk about your perspective. You are thinking that Dasam Granth is being written by a person who says "Shri X ji sahai" where X = the deity who is the subject of their writing. So if that's the case I can imagine a dude, who is equally starting his writings with - "Shri Krishan ji sahai" - Vishnu's avtars "Shri Kaal ji sahai" - Kaal's play "Shri Bhagwati ji sahai" - Bhagawati's "destroying demons" stories But that's not happening in Dasam Granth. The Chaubis Avtar is a good example of that. Had this been written by one person who is uniting all religions, who is no favouring any particular religion, he would have said "Shri Krishan ji sahai" or "Shri Vishnu ji Sahai" before starting Chaubis Avtar. Instead, he says "Ath Devi jio ki ustat kathnan". 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted January 30, 2016 Report Share Posted January 30, 2016 Sorry I must have misunderstood you then. What did you mean when you said the Krishnaavatar was written/translated by a devi worshipper ? I assumed it to be a shaiva shakta 'hindu' then. Now I read your comment as you saying the Krishnaavatar was written by a Sikh who saw the divine through the feminine expression 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BhagatSingh Posted January 30, 2016 Report Share Posted January 30, 2016 5 minutes ago, amardeep said: Sorry I must have misunderstood you then. What did you mean when you said the Krishnaavatar was written/translated by a devi worshipper ? I assumed it to be a shaiva shakta 'hindu' then. Now I read your comment as you saying the Krishnaavatar was written by a Sikh who saw the divine through the feminine expression You are right on both accounts. The word "sikh" means student of a Guru. That's it. The guy who is writing Chandi di Vaar is a Sikh of the Guru, but does not belong to the same religion, does not prescribe to the same theological structure, as Guru Nanak. Suppose, I listen to Shin Zen Young a lot and practice his methods for meditation and healthy living. Then he is my Guru because I am his Sikh. But my religion is different from his religion, even though I may follow his teachings. He is a Boddhi, I am not. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BhagatSingh Posted January 31, 2016 Report Share Posted January 31, 2016 @amardeepGet on Skype mate. Typing all this out (and there is a lot more to it) is starting to give me a headache. You are doing great but it is exhausting for me. This is some advanced level shit, that most people cannot follow through and comprehend. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted January 31, 2016 Report Share Posted January 31, 2016 3 minutes ago, BhagatSingh said: @amardeep What if a writing started with "Shri Yeshua ji sahai"? Never mind the contents of the writing. You don't think that's being written by a Punjabi Christian? But I get what you are saying too bro. Let me talk about your perspective. You are thinking that Dasam Granth is being written by a person who says "Shri X ji sahai" where X = the deity who is the subject of their writing. So if that's the case I can imagine a dude, who is equally starting his writings with - "Shri Krishan ji sahai" - Vishnu's avtars "Shri Kaal ji sahai" - Kaal's play "Shri Bhagwati ji sahai" - Bhagawati's "destroying demons" stories But that's not happening in Dasam Granth. The Chaubis Avtar is a good example of that. Had this been written by one person who is uniting all religions, who is no favouring any particular religion, he would have said "Shri Krishan ji sahai" or "Shri Vishnu ji Sahai" before starting Chaubis Avtar. Instead, he says "Ath Devi jio ki ustat kathnan". We have to look the setup of Indian litterature and writings here. Tirath Singh Nirmala once did a post on this here on the forum which I can't seem to find. If a text starts with Sri Yeshua Ji Sahai then indeed I would first assume it to be a Christian text with someone viewing Jesus as the Highest God. However if it starts with "Ik Oankaar Satgur Prasaad, Sri Yeshua Ji Sahai" I would look at the ik oankaar first as it implies that the prime isht of the author is Oankaar. it is like the 18-19th century Nirmala writings. They all start lik this: "Ik Oankaar Satgur prasaad Sri Ganesha namah" Many people then assume that the nirmale were worshippers of Ganesha - hence the nirmale are hindus! But look again. Their prime isht is Oankaar. Ganesha is not the isht. He is in the text repressenting some virtue/aspect of God In the Krishna avatar, the devi ju ki ustat is NOT a part of the prime manglacharan. It is a section that comes in the beginning of the text yes but in the manglacharan we have the oankaar and bhaugati... The devi ju ki ustat then does not imply any theological background of the author to the exclusion of other theologies. I am not an expert in the setup of indian literature so hopefully others can add more to this. But it is vital to understand how Indian literature is written in order to interpret Gurbani. Many AKJ'ers and others who limit the moool mantra and exclude the "Aad sach, Jugaad sach...." do so because they say that all the raag opening chapters only has the mool mantar till nanak hosi bhi sach.. And they will point at some other texts which only has verses till Nanak Hosi Bhi sach....However, - the other raag openings and texts they refer to does NOT contain the mool mantar. They contain a manglacharan!! ... These are two different things...Due to them mixing up a manglacharan with the mool mantar, they end up chopping the mool mantar in half.. Instead of saying these are two different things.. It's a bit off-track but my point is we need to look more at how Indian litterature is writtten in order to not mess anything up in our khoj. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted January 31, 2016 Report Share Posted January 31, 2016 (edited) Im in Europe, it's the middle of the night here and i'm drifting off to sleep. but sure, lets skype one day :) Edited January 31, 2016 by amardeep 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BhagatSingh Posted January 31, 2016 Report Share Posted January 31, 2016 26 minutes ago, amardeep said: "Ik Oankaar Satgur Prasaad, Sri Yeshua Ji Sahai" I would look at the ik oankaar first as it implies that the prime isht of the author is Oankaar. it is like the 18-19th century Nirmala writings. They all start lik this: "Ik Oankaar Satgur prasaad Sri Ganesha namah" Yeshua is a name of God Ganesh is a name of God OM/Onkar is not a deity. If you ever come across two writings one start with OM Yeshua, the other starts with OM Ganesh, then know that they belong to different religions. Suppose I write a textbook, I start Chapter 1 with OM Physics, then it means I am physicist. In Chapter 2, I say Om Physics and then talk about Chemistry. It means I am putting Chemistry as something that follows from the Physics from Chapter 1. Suppose I write a textbook, I start it with OM Physics, but the entire book is about Chemistry and nothing to do with Physics. Then you should either consider me a fool or a liar or consider my manglacharan as a typo. If anyone is starting their writings with Om Ganesh, and not venerating Ganesh in the writing and in their daily practice, then I would say they are being very foolish and deceptive. Imagine if Richard Dawkins wrote a book "God is great" and started saying "God is fiction for adults" within the book. Also see my response to Samurai - 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BhagatSingh Posted January 31, 2016 Report Share Posted January 31, 2016 12 minutes ago, amardeep said: Im in Europe, it's the middle of the night here and i'm drifting off to sleep. but sure, lets skype one day :) No prob, I am in Kaneda. Goodnight. We will meet someday. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samurai Posted January 31, 2016 Report Share Posted January 31, 2016 wow.. this has really been fast tracked..lol just a request.. please keep this goin here, as we all want to learn from both sides who come from an intellectual background.... a young soul will come here in 10 years time an look back to this post to affirm or disregard his, or her,, belief in dasam bani (or parts of it).. it so refreshing to see 2 jeevs from different view points having a respectful discussion..kudos in terms of bhagti and the desire to be disolved into the supreme then shakti plays little part if at all.. but for yodeh who want to serve maha kaal,all of a sudden shakti plays a big role... so shiv shakti plays a major role in this...shiv bein the formless and shakti being his manifested power..i do not see it as masculine and femine as indian pilosophy views it as.. shiv being shiva and shakti being durga..yes in chandi di var shakti is manifested as durga who defeats the demons is an inspirationl "story"(visual)but the repitions of this bani acumilates shakti.. like sukhmani sahib gives peace of mind to the saint chandi di var gives that cutting edge shakti (bir ras) to the yoda. reason i talked about mukhti is because not every jeev wants mukhti ofbeing disolved into the supreme but to participate in dharm yudh(to serve).. dasam bani is of bir ras, not for everyone but caterd more so for warriors and warriors mentality..ultimately there is no shakti.. no shiv shakti but while the "play" is going on there is good and bad..right and wrong.. gyan and agyan.....i see no difference between akaal purkh and his shakti....shiv being nirgun and shakti being sargun..its not about major praise to shakti so to speak as without shiv,shakti has no existence. with out shakti shiv has no expression...shakti is not independent but in shakti is shiv.. its the union.. the play... thers an article on shiv shakti..ill dig it out ad post it... also reason for scholors parroting is because the truth is consistent. if you ask 100 people what is 2+2 a hundred would say 4..parroting but truth.. for me it makes sense...but it is what it is 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragmaala Posted January 31, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2016 Some weapons mentioned in ShastarNaam Mala ( http://www.info-sikh.com/PageShastar1.htm ) Imo, I would just say that Bhagauti manifests in different forms whether it is a talwar ( curved ) , or kharag (straight), nothing feminine & masculine. Thats just my opinion which satisfies me for now, & I am good with it. :) Sarohi Special sword made in Sarohi, Rajasthan Saif Straight sword Asi Curved sword Turwar Sword Satrantak Sword - destroyer of the enemy Kavchantak Armour severing sword Jamdaadh Two blade dagger, looks like demon tooth. Tega Broad & straight sword Khanda Double-edged blade Kharag Sword Tabar Battle-axe Sehthi Spear karad Small sword, usually used as symbol and kept in hairs Tulvar Sword karwaar Shamsheer=sword Katar Which destroys the demons, jungi name of shri sahib Bichhua Crooked dagger Baank Kind of sword tufang Matchlock musket Bugda A bent cutlass or dagger Bisikh Arrow without feathers Khagarbhan Arrow, which moves in the sky Kaiber Special arrow Khatang A rare type of wooden arrow Tatarcho An unusual arrow Sasbaan Special arrow with a half moon end Patis Double-edged sword Sakkar Special arrow Jamdhar A dagger like a tooth Jamdhara A double faced blade Jodhantak Sword and arrow that destroys warriors Shasterser King of arms Samrantak Sword, which ends battle Sipra Arrow, which breaks a shield Sattar Sword type Sarangaar Sword, which cuts bow Tupak Gun 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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