SIKHISM AND GENDER EQUALITY

[kdsingh80]

4 hours ago, Guest said:

The men in women's lives such as fathers, husbands don't let the women become raagies and so on. Why should more men be more interested in following this?  The answer is, because they get the encouragement and full backing from their parents and other men, that's why.  Women are not encouraged just because they are women only good enough for gossiping and kaleshs. 

What type of western gender similarity are talking about?  In any case, it is much better to have western type of similarity, whatever that might be than treat women like brainless idiots only fit to work in the kitchen!

 

Same old discrimination B.S with no knowledge. Mostly men are doing dirty jobs so women must be discriminated in that too , Majority of workplace deaths are of men  so women are discriminated in that too Men must be dreaming about becoming garbage collector , sewer cleaner and dieing at death that's why they stop women from doing these?

Coming to becoming Raagi's and kathavachak , sorry t to say but you have hardly any knowledge about it. Most family will be pissed of if their son say that He want's to become Gyani, Kathavachak or Raagi. Most of them want their son to do some white collar job and earn 6 figure salary or go USA canada and send $$.Gyani Kathavachak , Raagi are some jobs in which Punjabi familes are least interested , this is harsh reality of Sikhism.

Western gender similarity means when a society see's everything from the eye's of gender and divide equally between two 50:50 everything, though menial jobs' workplace deaths don't count in that.

 

Also if you ask caste of Gyani's , kathavachak , raagi's then you may found that majority of them are from upper caste , so then again blame will be why lower caste is not represented in that, must be discrimination

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Guest guest said:

are you a woman?  is this what happened to you?  if they don't want their daughters to become kirtan singers, don't you think maybe there are some reasons for that that are not about sadistic oppression.

what are kaleshs?

I am a soul waiting to reincarnate anytime now, but not quite sure if I should be born as a boy or a girl!  What do you think?  Which one is best.  I think it will all depend on my future Pa's  Y chromosome if I am to be born as a Raagie!!!

[paapiman]

41 minutes ago, kdsingh80 said:

Also if you ask caste of Gyani's , kathavachak , raagi's then you may found that majority of them are from upper caste , so then again blame will be why lower caste is not represented in that, must be discrimination

Bro, many of the above belong to Jatt caste, which is a low caste. 

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[GurpreetKaur]

2 minutes ago, paapiman said:

Bro, many of the above belong to Jatt caste, which is a low caste. 

 

Bhul chuk maaf

I thought baptized Sikhs are above caste systems? 

 

 

[CdnSikhGirl]

59 minutes ago, GurpreetKaur said:

I thought baptized Sikhs are above caste systems? 

 

 

Apparently not. 

Funny thing is a lot of these guys are taksal or follow Damdami Taksal. You know what is in Taksal Rehet Maryada? Yes the same Taksal who everyone on here are SURE date back to Guru Gobind Singh Ji....

 

This is direct from Taksal Mayrada under Amrit section:

"Differences in caste, creed, colour, gender, rich and poor all have been eliminated by the creation of the Khalsa.  The true Guru is all powerful"

 

Also did you know the Taksal Maryada doesn't even prohibit women from being one of Punj Pyaras! It's only inferred from language as Singh. However everything in the entire document refers to Singhs and not Kaurs when referring to seva. Even making Karah prashad. 

 

[Harjots8963]

53 minutes ago, CdnSikhGirl said:

Apparently not. 

Funny thing is a lot of these guys are taksal or follow Damdami Taksal. You know what is in Taksal Rehet Maryada? Yes the same Taksal who everyone on here are SURE date back to Guru Gobind Singh Ji....

 

This is direct from Taksal Mayrada under Amrit section:

"Differences in caste, creed, colour, gender, rich and poor all have been eliminated by the creation of the Khalsa.  The true Guru is all powerful"

 

Also did you know the Taksal Maryada doesn't even prohibit women from being one of Punj Pyaras! It's only inferred from language as Singh. However everything in the entire document refers to Singhs and not Kaurs when referring to seva. Even making Karah prashad. 

 

If you want a better perspective on Damdami Taksaal's Rehat, read Gurbani Path Darpan. by Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji Khalsa Bhindranwale... You cannot continue to just use English translations...! 

[CdnSikhGirl]

34 minutes ago, Harjots8963 said:

If you want a better perspective on Damdami Taksaal's Rehat, read Gurbani Path Darpan. by Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji Khalsa Bhindranwale... You cannot continue to just use English translations...! 

So is it discriminatory or not? 

[JasperS]

33 minutes ago, CdnSikhGirl said:

So is it discriminatory or not? 

Never even mind yes it is. If you are looking for some glimmer of hope in the wording that they treat women on equal level, no they don't. And they don't make secret of it either. You have seen some of the attitude on here already on how males get higher respect. They don't even allow bibis to participate in akhand paths. Their thinking is very brahminical. The only thing they think women are good for is hidden away doing kitchen work and serving the men.  If you want equality stay away from them.  They think all religious duties and leadership should be men.  I don't even know how they got so popular lately before sant jarnail singh bhindranwale they were nothing just a small group with not much influence. Now look at the youth. They are all turning into women hating sexist. If you want to be seen and treated as equal, check Akhand Kirtani Jatha I think you will be happy.

Dr. Navtej Purewal of Oxford University has pointed out in a study on Sikhism that many of the so called deras and sants take women's service for granted and their service is expected to be low profile compared to men. This is upheld in deras and these so called sants restrict women's participation greatly. If Gurbani is telling us everyone are equal how can women be kept from equal service in the panth? It is a huge disservice to our Gurus to relegate women back to the background, hidden, passive influence in the panth, out of leadership roles, out of prominence.  Our Gurus taught differently, Gurbani speaks of equality, yet we are doing these things and breeding hatred of women. 

Just look at some of the comments on here lately. Singhs (or at least they are passing themselves off as Singhs) in disgust over women's bodies and biological functions, coming straight out and saying that giving women less opportunity is somehow not discriminatory, just a different role. Yes, don't delude yourselves at least call it what it is! It is very much discrimination. And our Gurus were against it. Ask yourself if you would want the supposed role you are telling women they have. To be hidden in background, refused opportunity simply because of something you had no control over, your gender. 

CdnSikhGirl. check out akhand kirtani jatha. Bhai Rhandir Singh Ji believed in equality as taught by our Gurus. This has nothing to do with western feminism. It has everything to do with being a decent human being.

[Harjots8963]

1 hour ago, CdnSikhGirl said:

So is it discriminatory or not? 

 

13 minutes ago, JasperS said:

Never even mind yes it is. If you are looking for some glimmer of hope in the wording that they treat women on equal level, no they don't. And they don't make secret of it either. You have seen some of the attitude on here already on how males get higher respect. They don't even allow bibis to participate in akhand paths. Their thinking is very brahminical. The only thing they think women are good for is hidden away doing kitchen work and serving the men.  If you want equality stay away from them.  They think all religious duties and leadership should be men.  I don't even know how they got so popular lately before sant jarnail singh bhindranwale they were nothing just a small group with not much influence. Now look at the youth. They are all turning into women hating sexist. If you want to be seen and treated as equal, check Akhand Kirtani Jatha I think you will be happy.

Dr. Navtej Purewal of Oxford University has pointed out in a study on Sikhism that many of the so called deras and sants take women's service for granted and their service is expected to be low profile compared to men. This is upheld in deras and these so called sants restrict women's participation greatly. If Gurbani is telling us everyone are equal how can women be kept from equal service in the panth? It is a huge disservice to our Gurus to relegate women back to the background, hidden, passive influence in the panth, out of leadership roles, out of prominence.  Our Gurus taught differently, Gurbani speaks of equality, yet we are doing these things and breeding hatred of women. 

Just look at some of the comments on here lately. Singhs (or at least they are passing themselves off as Singhs) in disgust over women's bodies and biological functions, coming straight out and saying that giving women less opportunity is somehow not discriminatory, just a different role. Yes, don't delude yourselves at least call it what it is! It is very much discrimination. And our Gurus were against it. Ask yourself if you would want the supposed role you are telling women they have. To be hidden in background, refused opportunity simply because of something you had no control over, your gender. 

CdnSikhGirl. check out akhand kirtani jatha. Bhai Rhandir Singh Ji believed in equality as taught by our Gurus. This has nothing to do with western feminism. It has everything to do with being a decent human being.

Jasper you have the audacity to make these proclamations without even reading Gurbani Path Darpan?! 

Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh Ji had incredible pyaar for Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji Khalsa Bhindranwale, and Vice Versa. 

Akhand Kirtan Jatha and Damdami Taksaal have a strong relationship despite trouble makers.

Damdami Taksaal is a puratan Samparda the first mukhi was Dhan Dhan Baba Deep Singh Ji. Yet you have "no idea how they got so popular?" 

Sant Kartar Singh JI Khalsa Bhindranwale worked closely with Shaheed Bhai Fauja Singh JI (AKJ) during 1978! 

You guys here read some English translations and throw a hissy fit and now seemingly everyday we have a new thread about this nonsense. 
You don't want to do any real research and apply yourself and you label a whole sampardaye over what a few people say.

This website has become more draining then beneficial, a pale image of it's past. Tbh, Providing little reason for me to remain. 

[GurpreetKaur]

2 hours ago, CdnSikhGirl said:

Apparently not. 

Funny thing is a lot of these guys are taksal or follow Damdami Taksal. You know what is in Taksal Rehet Maryada? Yes the same Taksal who everyone on here are SURE date back to Guru Gobind Singh Ji....

 

This is direct from Taksal Mayrada under Amrit section:

"Differences in caste, creed, colour, gender, rich and poor all have been eliminated by the creation of the Khalsa.  The true Guru is all powerful"

 

Also did you know the Taksal Maryada doesn't even prohibit women from being one of Punj Pyaras! It's only inferred from language as Singh. However everything in the entire document refers to Singhs and not Kaurs when referring to seva. Even making Karah prashad. 

 

I think paapiman ji have not went to that grade yet where they teach that there is no such thing as Low caste and high caste. Oh well. 

[GurpreetKaur]

2 minutes ago, Harjots8963 said:

This website has become more draining then beneficial, a pale image of it's past. Tbh, Providing little reason for me to remain. 

 

[Harjots8963]

Just now, GurpreetKaur said:

 

Haha! I've been coming here for a few years.... I only made an account a little while back but before would just read the threads haha... it's just sad to see that back in the day there was a lot of great convos going on but nowadays there's just this nonsense lol

[CdnSikhGirl]

1 hour ago, Harjots8963 said:

Haha! I've been coming here for a few years.... I only made an account a little while back but before would just read the threads haha... it's just sad to see that back in the day there was a lot of great convos going on but nowadays there's just this nonsense lol

being male I don't expect you to ever understand how it feels to be forced into the passive role doing all the menial things while the other gender gets to run everything. You feel like you are taken for granted and undervalued. And since this is religion we are talking about you feel like maybe our creator even thinks less of us. Women have been given the crap role in life in general. And then men go and make it worse by imposing limitations which have nothing to even do with gender. But they base it on your gender. You'll never know what it feels like to hear the words "sorry dear men only" which makes you feel like a piece of crap for being the gender you are. Men will never know what it's like to have any limitations.  Because Of male privilege. And don't even try to say that doing dirty jobs makes it equal. It doesn't. Someone mentioned sewer cleaner? How about wiping dirty asses all day long? Sewer cleaners at least get protective gear. When is the last time someone wore a respirator changing a diaper? Have you even smelled baby crap??? It's revolting and vomit inducing!! And careers have nothing to do with seva at the gurdwara anyway! 

 

[JasperS]

2 hours ago, Harjots8963 said:

 

Jasper you have the audacity to make these proclamations without even reading Gurbani Path Darpan?! 

Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh Ji had incredible pyaar for Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji Khalsa Bhindranwale, and Vice Versa. 

Akhand Kirtan Jatha and Damdami Taksaal have a strong relationship despite trouble makers.

Damdami Taksaal is a puratan Samparda the first mukhi was Dhan Dhan Baba Deep Singh Ji. Yet you have "no idea how they got so popular?" 

Sant Kartar Singh JI Khalsa Bhindranwale worked closely with Shaheed Bhai Fauja Singh JI (AKJ) during 1978! 

You guys here read some English translations and throw a hissy fit and now seemingly everyday we have a new thread about this nonsense. 
You don't want to do any real research and apply yourself and you label a whole sampardaye over what a few people say.

This website has become more draining then beneficial, a pale image of it's past. Tbh, Providing little reason for me to remain. 

 I am basing it off my experience at actual gurdwara run by taksals. The women were not even allowed to participate in akhand paath. Explain why? And it wasn't that there were just none there that day, they said women are not allowed.  They told me women job is to just sit quietly and listen. No woman is allowed to sit on tabya at all there. The taksali Singh there told me women are seen as lower spiritual level than men and in all likleyhood will have to be reborn in a male joon to achieve liberation. 

I only mention akhand kirtani jatha because CdnSikhGirl is looking for Sikh group who practices equality and they do in all regards.  I know that taksals and them in general have a fairly good relationship as taksals think akj is good at kirtan and simran, while akj thinks taksals are good at pronounciation of gurbani. Sant jarnail singh bhindranwale even praised akjs. I dont understand why some on here hate them so much other than they treat women as equals. And maybe raagmala issue but not all akjs disregard raagmala either. 

Lets not get into if taksal is the same as in the beginning or even if the beliefs are the same. we all know how easy it is to change over time. akjs also claim to have lineage back to tenth master. taksalis will fight it tooth and nail and akjs will fight taksalis claim tooth and nail. akjs believe their rehet is closest to original especially what is in guru gobind singh ji 52 hukams.  And then there is sikh rehat maryada which was arrived at by panthic decision and guru gobind singh gave the panth decision making power. so if nothing else this prooves sikhi is adaptable. if nothing was ever meant to change, then panth would never have been given decision making power and everything would have been black and white from the beginning with addendum saying nothing can ever be changed ever. khalsa is now voice of guru gobind singh ji. and this was done on purpose. instead of fighting on who is closest to the beginning why not accept that guru ji gave adaptability to the religion? and just accept that in modern world, women no longer wish to have limited positon. 

[Harjots8963]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH CLASSIC! Neither of you want to address the fact that you aren't actually willing to explore the maryada properly without English Translations!!!

My last post to you guys. Have fun with all this. Best of luck.

 

 

[kdsingh80]

8 hours ago, paapiman said:

Bro, many of the above belong to Jatt caste, which is a low caste. 

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Jatts are dominant caste in sikhism , not lower , oppressed

[paapiman]

16 hours ago, GurpreetKaur said:

I thought baptized Sikhs are above caste systems? 

 

 

Yes, Khalsa is above all the four varans.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[CdnSikhGirl]

9 hours ago, Harjots8963 said:

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH CLASSIC! Neither of you want to address the fact that you aren't actually willing to explore the maryada properly without English Translations!!!

My last post to you guys. Have fun with all this. Best of luck.

 

 

Harjot Ji you KNOW I can't speak Punjabi! It's not a matter of willing to read it. I can't physically read it without English translation. I would need someone to read it and tell me what it says. The only thing I know from it is that it does not have the bit about women having to see husband as God in there. But I don't know if the rest is discriminatory or not towards women with regards to seva. Like I don't know if the menstruation being impure is in there or women barred from any seva like Panj Pyaras. I know in practice they restrict women from sitting on tabiya during menstruation but some DDT run gurdwaras disallow women to sit on the tabiya at all (verified by a ddt guy I used to know) and reason was that women could start their period at any time and it was 'just to be sure'. But this was actual practice. And as Jasper Ji said this includes keeping women from being part of Akhand paaths too, taking hukamnama, reading from SGGSJ at all in Sangat. And we all know Damdami Taksal keep women from Panj pyaras. I can't say if it's in that book or not until I get someone else to read it and let me know. I'll get my husband to when he has time. It would be really good if nothing was in there regarding women having restrictions placed on them. Because then it would just be practice and not actual rule. I am seriously doubting that will be the case though. 

So please don't accuse me of not wanting to... When you know I can't read Punjabi. 

[Guest]

18 hours ago, Guest said:

I am a soul waiting to reincarnate anytime now, but not quite sure if I should be born as a boy or a girl!  What do you think?  Which one is best.  I think it will all depend on my future Pa's  Y chromosome if I am to be born as a Raagie!!!

You better stay where you are, it's not looking very good here on earth especially in the Sikh kom!!

[paapiman]

9 hours ago, kdsingh80 said:

Jatts are dominant caste in sikhism , not lower , oppressed

Bro, they are in majority and in power, but according to the caste system, they are Shudars (low caste).

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[GurpreetKaur]

2 hours ago, paapiman said:

Yes, Khalsa is above all the four varans.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

What is varans? 

1 hour ago, paapiman said:

Bro, they are in majority and in power, but according to the caste system, they are Shudars (low caste).

 

Bhul chuk maaf

I would actually apreciate if you can put that in Jatt people's mind that they are low caste. They will reform since only an egotistical person is proud of something which is Mundane. 

But more important than that is don't call someone Shudar, I read your post long time ago where you called a guy shudar because he said he is jatt and not scared. I don't care what your books says or your teachers teach you, no one is shudar and no one is higher. Guru Nanak dev ji gave us Sikhi so those so called low caste people have a place to worship since they were not allowed and in 21st century, I don't wanna hear low caste or high caste from a person who knows more than any average joe about Life and why are we here.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, CdnSikhGirl said:

Harjot Ji you KNOW I can't speak Punjabi! It's not a matter of willing to read it. I can't physically read it without English translation. I would need someone to read it and tell me what it says. The only thing I know from it is that it does not have the bit about women having to see husband as God in there. But I don't know if the rest is discriminatory or not towards women with regards to seva. Like I don't know if the menstruation being impure is in there or women barred from any seva like Panj Pyaras. I know in practice they restrict women from sitting on tabiya during menstruation but some DDT run gurdwaras disallow women to sit on the tabiya at all (verified by a ddt guy I used to know) and reason was that women could start their period at any time and it was 'just to be sure'. But this was actual practice. And as Jasper Ji said this includes keeping women from being part of Akhand paaths too, taking hukamnama, reading from SGGSJ at all in Sangat. And we all know Damdami Taksal keep women from Panj pyaras. 

Can to explain to me why there was no women Guru?  All ten were men.  Is this not discrimination by the Gurus to not appoint one women as the Guru of the Sikhs?  Is this not inequality when the Gurus bani says to treat men and women as equals.  Why did they go against their writings?

[CdnSikhGirl]

58 minutes ago, GurpreetKaur said:

What is varans? 

Guru Nanak dev ji gave us Sikhi so those so called low caste people have a place to worship since they were not allowed and in 21st century, I don't wanna hear low caste or high caste from a person who knows more than any average joe about Life and why are we here.

I think he means the four classes like priest class then rulers then skilled workers then servants.  But prior to Sikhi I actually thought Jatts were farmers and considered landowners so they were somewhere either rulers (land owner) or skilled worker... But I could be wrong. Anyway Sikhi got rid of such none sense. Any distinctions used to classify one human over another based on things out of their control were eliminated. Yes that also includes gender as well! Obviously the traits themselves were not removed. People still have family history. That is unchangeable and same with someone's skin colour or gender. What was removed were all the perceived hierarchies saying one person is better than another or has more privileges because of these things which is wrong. 

Also remember as a woman you are not below men. Remember that. Because it's what Guru Nanak Dev Ji taught us! Don't let these guys make you think you are worth less than a man or that because you were born in a female body you have less rights or that they somehow deserve more respect than you do. In actually ALL humans deserve same respect. These guys keep talking about women respecting men and they don't realize the easiest way to get women to respect then, is if they start respecting women on equal level. They will get all the respect they want then! But they'd rather fight it, see us as lower and then demand respect. I respect my husband not because he's a man and I'm lower than him. I respect him because he treats me as an equal human and gives me the same treatment he would want fm be treated. Same dignity. So I highly respect him!!!! 

Anyway this is only instruction we need to follow on this (regarding caste and gender):

"As Gurmukh, look upon ALL with single eye of equality, for in each and every heart the divine light is contained." - Guru Nanak Dev Ji  (SGGSJ Ang 599) 

Paapiman already said he can not follow the above that he thinks only a Brahamgiani can... But then he said all wives are to see God in their husbands. Psst if women can see God in their husbands that means wives are Brahamgianis?? Lol ask Paapiman! Because he says he can never follow that instruction from Guru Nanak Dev Ji and his reason is he is not a Brahamgiani! But he says women are required to... ;) that makes us Brahamgianis I guess. That or he is just using that excuse to not have to see God in everyone because he doesn't want to. 

[CdnSikhGirl]

35 minutes ago, Guest said:

Can to explain to me why there was no women Guru?  All ten were men.  Is this not discrimination by the Gurus to not appoint one women as the Guru of the Sikhs?  Is this not inequality when the Gurus bani says to treat men and women as equals.  Why did they go against their writings?

The gurus were all the same one light. It was not a matter of choosing a human to be the next one. They were not human even though in human form. So it was never a matter of choosing someone and saying ok this person will do good as the next guru... No it was in fact one same light. This is why we also say tenth Nanak etc.

Also think of the time. Even now on this forum many of the guys won't listen to a lowly woman. Think someone like Paapiman or bhagat Singh who think wives should bow to (Paapiman) or obey their husbands (Bhagat  Singh - and this is not meant as slag or nindya so pls dont take it as such) do you think they would ever listen to a woman in a leadership role when they think it is men who are to be always in leadership over women? And this is today world! Think of back then when women's value was so low they were expected to kill themselves when their husband died. The gurus were in fact beyond gender. However in a female form, no they would not have been listened to back then (and even now maybe). Especially surrounded by a society where women were considered lower than the lowest caste men!

Can you imagine if a woman in that time made the statement that women deserved equal rights? They would have been laughed right back to the kicthen with the statement 'sure dear now make me my sammich' But no, the gurus in male form made the statement that women deserved equal treatment! Now the men would listen (too bad most of them forgot now). Same as a slave claiming they deserve freedom. It would never happen without a revolt. But a slave owner claiming slaves deserved to go free would be listened to. Or a low caste person claiming they deserve equal rights to a Brahmin but if a Brahmin made the same declaration.... See the difference? The message of equality for the lower levels has to come from the highest level in order to be taken seriously.... Message of women equality had to come from a male form for men to actually consider it. 

 

[paapiman]

1 hour ago, GurpreetKaur said:

What is varans? 

 But more important than that is don't call someone Shudar, I read your post long time ago where you called a guy shudar because he said he is jatt and not scared. 

The four varans - Brahmin, Khatri, Vaish and Shudar. Khalsa is above them and anyone from these varans, can join Sikhi.

Reality is that caste system is a problem in our community. We need to tackle this issue, rather than hide it under the rug. There is plenty of Brahmin bashing going on in our Panth, but IMHO, Jattvaad is not really being confronted on a large scale or explicitly talked about in Kathas.

Also, even a Sikh kid knows that discrimination based on caste, is prohibited in Sikhism.

Anyways, let's stay on-topic.

 

Bhul chuk maaf