Gurus and Divine Manifestations

[MysticMonist]

I hope we can discuss (rather than necessarily debate) in greater detail the theology of the nature of Sikh Gurus and the parallels with Baha'i Divine Manifestations. It's come up several times already in my posts.

I started to try to write an essay about the nature of Divine Messengers but it quickly became very wordy and went in circles. It's difficult to put into percise words such a profound topic.

"The Palace of the Lord God is so beautiful. Within it, there are gems, rubies, pearls and flawless diamonds. A fortress of gold surrounds this Source of Nectar. How can I climb up to the Fortress without a ladder? By meditating on the Lord, through the Guru, I am blessed and exalted. The Guru is the Ladder, the Guru is the Boat, and the Guru is the Raft to take me to the Lord's Name. The Guru is the Boat to carry me across the world-ocean; the Guru is the Sacred Shrine of Pilgrimage, the Guru is the Holy River. If it pleases Him, I bathe in the Pool of Truth, and become radiant and pure." (Guru Nanak, Sri Rag, pg. 17)

This Sikh quote seems very simmilar to Baha'i teachings.

Baha'i teachings explain that there are throughout time Divine (from God) Manifestions (of Divine Revelation) that act as perfect mirrors to the Divine Light.

On a personal level understanding that God has sent His messengers to all many people in every era thru different faiths was a key that unlocked the essential truth of the diverse faiths. I find that the numerous scripturers contain the Voice of God and it's by their study and thru their teachings that I encounter God in more profound way than I could alone.

I believe that the Sikh scripture, the Sri Guru Granath Sahib, is clearly the product of Divine Revelation.

Though I know I'll get no disagreement of that statement here, I'll explain how I know this to be true. I think in discerning truth of revelation it needs to pass two tests:

1. There needs to be an experience of Divine Illumination in receiving the words. For me, I experienced that with the first page of the text.

2. The fruits of the revelation are, for the most part, love of God and love of neighbor rather than the perversion of these loves. Sikhs are well known for their generosity and mild manner and have a long history of benefiting mankind.

I feel I am barely scratching the surface with this discussion, so I'd welcome your thoughts and wisdom.

God is most glorious!

-MM

 

[amardeep]

Very interesting topic, and very vital for understanding Sikh philosophy.

Firstly, the Word Guru is quite manifold in the Guru Granth Sahib. Sometimes it Refers to God, sometimes the Means to understand God and also the historical Guru. Many times people have a hard time figuring out which one is meant on the specific verse.

In essense and a traditional interpretatoin is, that the historical Gurus were manifestations of divine attributes of God. The many attributes of God take form in the person of the Guru and avatars of the past. This would also include the prophets of the Semitic traditions. In our scriptures and commentaries you can find references to Krishna, Vishnu, Moses, Muhammed etc.

It is also states that there is a difference in the number of attributes each of these manifestations has, depending on the context and mission they were to have. That Guru Nanak had more attributes than Krishna or Moses does not in a thelogical sense mean that Guru Nanak was better or beyond in any sense. It Means that the mission of Guru Nanak was more intense, and therefore manifested more attributes. Likewise in the Guru Granth Sahib you have the revelations of the Gurus, their followers and bhagats at the same level.

Regarding prophets of the semitic tradition it is stated in Gurbani:

ਸਤਰਿ ਸੈਇ ਸਲਾਰ ਹੈ ਜਾ ਕੇ ॥
सतरि सैइ सलार है जा के ॥
Saṯar sai▫e salār hai jā ke.
He has 7,000 commanders,

ਸਵਾ ਲਾਖੁ ਪੈਕਾਬਰ ਤਾ ਕੇ ॥
सवा लाखु पैकाबर ता के ॥
Savā lākẖ paikābar ṯā ke.
and hundreds of thousands of prophets;

 

And also:

ਪੀਰ ਪੇਕਾਂਬਰ ਸਾਲਿਕ ਸਾਦਿਕ ਛੋਡੀ ਦੁਨੀਆ ਥਾਇ ਪਏ ॥੨॥
पीर पेकांबर सालिक सादिक छोडी दुनीआ थाइ पए ॥२॥
Pīr pekāʼnbar sālik sāḏik cẖẖodī ḏunī▫ā thā▫e pa▫e. ||2||
The spiritual leaders, prophets, seers and men of faith renounced the world, and became acceptable. ||2||

 

 

 

[amardeep]

In this regard, Sikhi is not a modern religion that came out of the blue and comdemned everything before it. On the other hand, there are dozens of references to people that had lived before Guru Nanak, and achived the highest stage of perfection. The essence of Sikhi (Gurmat) has been there since the earliest of human beings and revealed from beyond through many avatars, gurus and prophets.

[amardeep]

And often asked question is: How can there be differences between religions, if they all come from the same source? A good question.

Firstly, -Sikhi does not accept that the current Outlook of World religions is also the way they looked when they were first revealed. In that sense, some errors have crept into religions and their founders have been misrepresented through their own historical writings.

Secondly, - Sikhi has no issue with difference. A large majority of religious rules are due to the environment and culture, that was prevalent at the time the religion was revealed. For instance in judaism many rules only makes sense when looked at in a desert context. In a European context where there is plenty of Water and acces to green land, they make Little relevance. But they are rules within judaism.

In this regards, Guru Gobind Singh in Akal Ustat says that the inner essence of Hinduism and Islam is the same- and outer differences are due to the local contexts that arose from the cultures each religion was revealed in.

[sarabatam]

Sikh theology supports both sargun- personal Guru/Divine Manifestation-Guru being ten Guru-11th being final- SGGS-devotion and nirgun- impersonal Guru- which is the pure awareness/knowledge/light in all- all in one, one in all.  This is to cater various state of seekers and their various grasp of understanding of Ultimate principle (ikOngkar).

Whilst sikh theology supports both, at many times it also provides cautionary discourses to help seekers transcend form into formless-non duality in their meditation, devotion. In eastern philosophy, there are school of thoughts who emphasize on prophets(avtars), while keeping praise aspect towards avtars, including sikh gurus in mind, sikh guru themselves provided their ultimate position on Guru/Satguru in many places in sikh scriptures, one being:

Aad ant ekai avtaara, soe Guru samjhio hamara||"

God is the only incarnate from the beginning to the end, all should know that he (Such God) is my Guru."

 

[MysticMonist]

4 hours ago, amardeep said:

And often asked question is: How can there be differences between religions, if they all come from the same source? A good question.

Firstly, -Sikhi does not accept that the current Outlook of World religions is also the way they looked when they were first revealed. In that sense, some errors have crept into religions and their founders have been misrepresented through their own historical writings.

Secondly, - Sikhi has no issue with difference. A large majority of religious rules are due to the environment and culture, that was prevalent at the time the religion was revealed. For instance in judaism many rules only makes sense when looked at in a desert context. In a European context where there is plenty of Water and acces to green land, they make Little relevance. But they are rules within judaism.

In this regards, Guru Gobind Singh in Akal Ustat says that the inner essence of Hinduism and Islam is the same- and outer differences are due to the local contexts that arose from the cultures each religion was revealed in.

In the Christain Gospel, Matthew 27:51-53

"At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split ⁵² and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life.⁵³ They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and^[e] went into the holy city and appeared to many people."

There is a Baha'i intrepration that the tearing of the curtain to the Holy of Holies and the busting open of the tombs is symbolic of Jesus' teachings that reveal the essential, holy truth of Judaism. Jesus, for example, stresses compassion over legalism and inclusion over purity.

I think that Baha'is clearly base the doctrine of progressive revelation on Sikh teachings and not solely on the Quran. Bab and Baha'u'llah being persian  Sufis would have no doubt been aware of Sikh teachings or picked them up Sufis drawing from the Sikhs. So if you are cynical you could say Bahais incorporated Sikh teaching in their new faith. If you are less cynical, perhaps Sikhs and Bahais both understand the same truth.

 

 

[MysticMonist]

4 hours ago, sarabatam said:

Sikh theology supports both sargun- personal Guru/Divine Manifestation-Guru being ten Guru-11th being final- SGGS-devotion and nirgun- impersonal Guru- which is the pure awareness/knowledge/light in all- all in one, one in all.  This is to cater various state of seekers and their various grasp of understanding of Ultimate principle (ikOngkar).

Whilst sikh theology supports both, at many times it also provides cautionary discourses to help seekers transcend form into formless-non duality in their meditation, devotion. In eastern philosophy, there are school of thoughts who emphasize on prophets(avtars), while keeping praise aspect towards avtars, including sikh gurus in mind, sikh guru themselves provided their ultimate position on Guru/Satguru in many places in sikh scriptures, one being:

Aad ant ekai avtaara, soe Guru samjhio hamara||"

God is the only incarnate from the beginning to the end, all should know that he (Such God) is my Guru."

 

I can see the wisdom in maintaining a cautious mystery about the percise nature of the Guru. The teachings in Baha'i are purposefully ambiguous here too.

To me, it makes the most sense, to think of Divine Revelation as an emanation which in Platonism is derived from God but is not God Himself, like the rays from the Sun. This is the Logos or the Word in the Christain gospel. It is also the Torah which is seen as preexisting the world by some Jews. It is the Message of the Quran and it is the Spirit that speaks thru the Baha'i messengers and the Sikh Gurus.

Knowing the Guru/Torah/Word is only way to truly know God, because it is by this method God reveals Himself.

[amardeep]

I think they both emanate the same truth 

[Lucky]

10 hours ago, MysticMonist said:

This is the Logos or the Word in the Christain gospel. It is also the Torah which is seen as preexisting the world by some Jews. It is the Message of the Quran and it is the Spirit that speaks thru the Baha'i messengers and the Sikh Gurus.

Knowing the Guru/Torah/Word is only way to truly know God, because it is by this method God reveals Himself.

As you are reading on Sri Granth, you will come across the term "SHABAD" which in the English translation is still written as "Shabad". This "SHABAD" is the same as the ancient greek "Logos",  it's also he same "Word" as per John 1.1,  it's same as the "Tao".  Referred to as "holy spirit" also.  All religions speak of this very same shabad but in varying contexts. Even the famous artists of Renaissance have depicted the same "shabad" in the messages of imagery.

At your current level of knowledge and understanding, I'd recommend that when you come across the terms "Shabad", you bear in mind the above and when you come across the term "NAAM" which is translated  as "Name" or just as "Naam",  then you apply it in the relationship as though it refers to someone who experiences "Shabad".  It's much more than that, but you have to approach gurbani in stages to get a grip of it.  You will come across different applications and contexts of these terms, and then you should just ask us. It would be too confusing if I started to describe them in one go. 

 

 

[BhagatSingh]

On 12/22/2017 at 8:25 AM, amardeep said:

In our scriptures and commentaries you can find references to Krishna, Vishnu

...just like how in Quran, you can find references to Allah.