Triah Charitar...gurooBani or Not??

[Gupt Singh]

niranjana

i fail to see the un-scientificness in 10 month pregnancy.....from conception to birth its usually about 10 months exactly!

the fire means that the time in teh womb is painful, possibly because of a lack of gyan or not being about to realise waheguru.

"So Soulja ji the Granth was compiled even before Khalsa Came into being ? Great !! (So all of the compositions related to Khalsa ....Khalsa mero roop hai khaas [which I believe are authentic] were composed before 1699 !!!"

that is part of the sarbloh granth which is added to the dasam granth by bhai mani singh. and if it was in there, would u have a problem believing it since guruji created the khalsa and is all knowing?

"Ohh and my apologies Soulja Ji. I dont have as much knowledge of gurbaani as you do."

i never said i had more gyan then you.

"You give the reference to Anup Kaur's story. I wonder how you knew I was going to raise this one with you ? Does this story speak highly of the character of Amritdhaari women?"

no the kaur is not mentioned in the "story". anup "kaur" wasnt baptised till afterwards, when she became a model singhnee. i dont know how that relates to the story in tc404

"

Isnt this a concocted story to blemish the character of Khalsa?"

no, its mentioned even by john (white) historians.

"Think before you speak much less leap ?"

yeah, thats the one :roll:

"However, Niranjana , you have gone too far...the quotations given in Guru Granth Sahib refer to the breasts of the mother, my dear honeybug?"

so? theres no war poetry in SGGS does that mean that chandi stories are fake?

"Dont you find any difference in these wordings and the wordings of the Treah Charitar expressions like Chumna Chatna and things like Dildo .... Chapti?"

because dasam granth bani is not imitating the style of guru granth bani it is fake?

"The again you refer to the Chadi Charitar wherein I quoted that no one can know about the mystery of the child in the womb ? and the you again equate it to quoatations from Guru Granth Sahib Ji and say that the fire doe not refer to the actual fire. Yes it is true that the fire does not refer to the actual fire."

indeedy.

"But what other meaning can you come up with from the couplet I quoted. I will be much obliged if you can throw some light on the new meaning ?"

im confused, quote the couplet again lol. and please give me a transliteration into its original language (braj?) aswell.

"Again is it only Women, who's minds mystery cannot be known? Can the mystery of mens mind be known with utmost ease."

there is a line in chandi charitrer which says "whoever reads this will be liberated". u cant take the line literatally, mukti comes from many things. same with the above quote. it just means that the mind of a woman is complex. which is true.

"Have you read about Sikander's Charitar?"

who? please enlighten me.

"Anyway I will write in further detail in a day giving all the quotations and also the page numbers."

safe.

[BabbarSher]

My mistake, I did read at the Gobind Sadan site that the Treah Charitar was written only ...in the date u mentioned on the side of the river Satluj. (Although there is somehting like Sudi Ashtami mentioned...)

Hmm but u also mention in of ur post and to quote:

"there are looooooads of names that the dasam granth could be. but theres still a hand written copy that was finished in 1696" :shock:

Anyway I truly believe that Guru Ji was JaaniJaan, but in fact Treah Charitar seems to depict quite the opposite.

For one you can take the quote given in my post above. (I have typed in English what I had in Gurmukhi letters in front of me). That NO ONE can know about the mysteries of womens' mind, child in womb

Also many of the stories are either mythological and made out to be mythological, although they bear a historical reference. One such Charitar is Sikandar's charitar and Sassi Punnu's charitar. I will give you the exact references in terms of Charitar Numbers.

However before I reply comprhensively to u, I would like to ask you a single question .... What is the meaning of 'Kabyio Baach'. According to the scholars and some religious people it means that 'I say' that is Guru Maharaj says that 'I say'.

Kabio Baach also comes in the Kabio Bach Benti Chaupai...

What do u think Kabi Baach means ? Do consult a scholar if you want to ..

Just for the Record...I havent ever said that all of Dasam Granth is not Guru Gobind singh Ji's baani.....<Please note>.

It is some portions like Treah Charitar which do not qualify as authentic baani.

Anyway u have evaded the question, as to why Guru Gobind Singh Ji woudl mention the use of sexual positions, dildos. Isnt it sufficent to mention just kaam.

The mention of Kaam does come in Guru Granth Sahib Ji, but in a very subtle manner. There is no elborate explanation of the physical love of humans.

Regarding the couplet ....would u mind ;-) reading one of my posts above, if it is not too much trouble for you.

Hakayts? Are they a part of the Dasam Granth or not..Authenticity issues...?? Please elaborate.

One last thing: You say: Gurmukhs are easy going like that ????

What is this supposed to mean. That they dont take a stand on whats right or wrong and dont even make their view known to other people when it matters.

I think Gurmukhs are 'Kathni Karni de Poore'

I dont understand the point in not objecting when the committe was in session and later on saying that it is not correct !!

[Gupt Singh]

My mistake, I did read at the Gobind Sadan site that the Treah Charitar was written only ...in the date u mentioned on the side of the river Satluj. (Although there is somehting like Sudi Ashtami mentioned...)

there is authentic signatures of guruji before and after and during (probably) triyah charitrer.....how can u say it is not bani?

Anyway I truly believe that Guru Ji was JaaniJaan, but in fact Treah Charitar seems to depict quite the opposite.

have u read all hte chartirers? in their original language? which translation did u use?

For one you can take the quote given in my post above. (I have typed in English what I had in Gurmukhi letters in front of me). That NO ONE can know about the mysteries of womens' mind, child in womb

read akal ustat which highlights the paradoxical nature of waheguru. waheguru is no one but waheguru is everyone. he is sargun and nirgun. he is both here and there. everywhere but no where. hence i see no contradiction.

Also many of the stories are either mythological and made out to be mythological, although they bear a historical reference. One such Charitar is Sikandar's charitar and Sassi Punnu's charitar. I will give you the exact references in terms of Charitar Numbers.

there are plenty of mythological references in SGGS and DG. whats ur point?

However before I reply comprhensively to u, I would like to ask you a single question .... What is the meaning of 'Kabyio Baach'. According to the scholars and some religious people it means that 'I say' that is Guru Maharaj says that 'I say'.

and?

What do u think Kabi Baach means ? Do consult a scholar if you want to ..

i dont see how its relevant. or maybe im just confused and deluded.

Just for the Record...I havent ever said that all of Dasam Granth is not Guru Gobind singh Ji's baani.....<Please note>.

It is some portions like Treah Charitar which do not qualify as authentic baani.

you reject it becuz u cant believe ur guru could write it. YOU CANT BELIEVE. emphasis on that. there is no historical evidence to prove guru didnt write it. its your own opinion, what is this against hard evidence of signatures in the 1696 bir?

Anyway u have evaded the question, as to why Guru Gobind Singh Ji woudl mention the use of sexual positions, dildos. Isnt it sufficent to mention just kaam.

because it drives the message home better? do u have any idea how many sikhs including gursikhs and even some amritdharis are commiting affairs and lust filled acts? if they all read the 404 stories they might change their ways.

why not just say "praise god, work hard, share, be honest" and why have 1430 pages in the guru granth?

The mention of Kaam does come in Guru Granth Sahib Ji, but in a very subtle manner. There is no elborate explanation of the physical love of humans.

so? theres no violent poems like chandi stories either.

Regarding the couplet ....would u mind reading one of my posts above, if it is not too much trouble for you.

cant find it

Hakayts? Are they a part of the Dasam Granth or not..Authenticity issues...?? Please elaborate.

if u want to discuss it start another topic.

One last thing: You say: Gurmukhs are easy going like that ????

What is this supposed to mean. That they dont take a stand on whats right or wrong and dont even make their view known to other people when it matters.

once your a gurmukh you will understand. they dont like getting involved in silly little arguments/"debates" like we are.

I think Gurmukhs are 'Kathni Karni de Poore'

I dont understand the point in not objecting when the committe was in session and later on saying that it is not correct !!

ill be honest u havent given me any substantial evidence that triyah charitrer isnt gurbani other than u cant get ur head round the subject matter.

go to that gobind sadan website. baba virsa singh will pay for your transport fares, accomodation and food if you visit his institute and debate over the dasam granth and its contents if u feel you have a valid argument. its true - it says it on teh website.

have a debate with him. he is knowledgable. dont debate with a moorakh 16 yr old who hasnt even read all of what we are actually discussing.

BTW im going away for the weekeend but when i come back hopefully ill b loaded with 2 volumes of the 404 stories so i can check them out more fully.

[sukhsingh]

so? theres no war poetry in SGGS does that mean that chandi stories are fake?

wat about this?

"the battle-drum beats in the sky of the mind; aim is taken, and the wound is inflicted. The spiritual warriors enter the field of battle; now is the time to fight!. He alone is known as a spiritual hero, who fights in defense of religion. He may be cut apart, piece by piece, but he never leaves the field of battle." page 1105 of sri guru granth sahib ji

its written by bhagat kabir ji

its war like kinda

[BabbarSher]

<<<<<<there is authentic signatures of guruji before and after and during (probably) triyah charitrer.....how can u say it is not bani? >>>>>

Thats what you say and the supporters of Triah chariter say. I have given my reasons and I dont think u have given definate answers to support ur claims. Perhaps the readers of this post are the best judges.

<<have u read all hte chartirers? in their original language? which translation did u use? >>

I have read many of them as the below will proove. They were in the Gurmukhi Script. Translation : Please suggest one ..

I have read Kala Afghana's translation. However let me just say that the wording is such to make the emanings quite obvious.

I wil post a few below..ans u can tell me the alternate meanings .. as per ur translation..

<<That NO ONE can know about the mysteries of womens' mind, child in womb

read akal ustat which highlights the paradoxical nature of waheguru. waheguru is no one but waheguru is everyone. he is sargun and nirgun. he is both here and there. everywhere but no where. hence i see no contradiction. >>

Give me a break here. Do you not find any diff. between the description of waheguru as Sargun and Nirgun.....and tha fact stated in Treah Charitar about the child in the womb....

"Charitar Number 1: Chandi Charitar

Aragh Garab TRIYAN ko bhed na payo jaye "

<<Quote:

Also many of the stories are either mythological and made out to be mythological, although they bear a historical reference. One such Charitar is Sikandar's charitar and Sassi Punnu's charitar. I will give you the exact references in terms of Charitar Numbers.

there are plenty of mythological references in SGGS and DG. whats ur point? >>

The point dear boy is that if you read Sikandar Charitar, you will find the high amount of illogic and selef contradictory statements being made by the poet.

There are references to the myths in Guru Granth Sahib as well, but that is an example to explain the larger concept of love for God.

In Guru Granth Sahib the historical aspects are given very truthfully. Unless if you want to suggest otherwise....which I think would be foolish given that Guru Granth Sahib is accepted for historical accuracy by many learned historians.

Here u have legends (like Sikander...unless :-) u belive him to be a myth... whose adventures have been distorted. He is shown winning all 14 worlds and going to heavens and fighting Indra.... and a lot more..

<

you reject it becuz u cant believe ur guru could write it. YOU CANT BELIEVE. emphasis on that. there is no historical evidence to prove guru didnt write it. its your own opinion, what is this against hard evidence of signatures in the 1696 bir>>

I rekect it because I belive in the unsurpassable spirtuality of my Guru. I belive that my Guru could never fail or fall.

Its when people like you ....mention stories like 'Anup Kaur' and then go on to take a moral from it that Guru Maharaj escaped from there, is what makes my blood boil.

Oh comon do u know what is written in the Charitar by the poet..as to why the 'King of Anandpur' went to see the girl for ??

Its is when people like you put the words under Kabi Baach stanzas into the mouth of my Guru.

Read and Comment

<

>>

When I asked you a question, you should reply to it..Anyway .....why I asked for it will become clear from below.,.

<<

because it drives the message home better? do u have any idea how many sikhs including gursikhs and even some amritdharis are commiting affairs and lust filled acts? if they all read the 404 stories they might change their ways. >>

Wow, well then there is no end on how graphical to get to drive the point home better. Theres a lot of similar stuff in puranas and vedas....and the point can be made that well it is again for giving morals to the people...

Most Amritdhaaris would belive Treah charitar to be a part of Dasam Granth and hence believe it.

1. If Amritdhaaris cannot stay in rehat of ther Guru, just on this basis that their Guru told em to be like that.......and they need to read Charitars... to remind them of the teachings of their Guru....then may God and Guru Gobind Singh Ji help us all..

<<why not just say "praise god, work hard, share, be honest" and why have 1430 pages in the guru granth? >>

If you read ..(u must have) the Mool Mantar..you will notice that it is the message contained in the Moolmantar..that is explained in Gurbaani again and again..

Though Guru Ji wrote more than 1400 pages..explaining the concept in varied ways....they never used a 'wild' example'

Gurbaani has and will always stand the test of time. that is why we call Guru Granth Sahib Juggo jug atal.

Have u seen any concocted stories in Gurbaani like of evolution, Adam and Eve, creation of Universe...

Gurbaani has highlited the spirtual side..of life and has desisted from giving physical knowledge.

But wherever Guru Maharaj has made a statement about the physical realities, it has and will stand the test of time.

Lots of people who are not sikhs follow some basics of staying out of pre and extra marital affairs.. Do they read Treah Charitar ?

<< Couplet>>

I have given the couplet again regarding the Child etc..above ..please refer

<< Hakayts>>

You dint answer the question but I will let it go. The point dearie is :: that you say in one of ur post below:

"please explain to me how triyah charitrer got into the 1696 copy of the dasam granth, which has guru gobind singhs signatures ALL OVER IT, including in triyah charitrer. lol, its not like its a 1 or 2 line interpolation, it takes of half the granth!

"

"The Charitropakhyan compilation of Dasam Granth was completed on Sunday, the 8th day of the month of Bhadon, in 1753 Bikrami Sammat (August 24, A.D.1696), on the bank of the river Satluj."

(Guru Gobind Singh Ji, Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji, Charitropakhyan 404)"

So the name of Dasam Granth was given by Guru Maharaj himself, when he had only compiled the Charitropakhyan...........!!!! ???

Well anyway this looks like a transaltion error, cause in the riginal wording given...it is written only Granth...

That reminds me ....to ask you whether the other authentic baanis of Guru Gobind Singh Ji also contains the singatures... ?? I dont know so do let me know so I can verify..

<<once your a gurmukh you will understand. they dont like getting involved in silly little arguments/"debates" like we are.>>

Frankly, I have had some opportunities of interacting with simple people having a high spirtual state (yes, most of them were sikhs ..and they may have been wrong at a place or two ..)

And frankly I am nothing in front of those people........well thinking of it I am actaully nothing.......

But one thing is for sure, Gurmukhs never yield to false things.

You say that gurmukhs never ...debate things. Have you read the books by Bhai randhir Singh (I am giving his example, because I think u also respect him a lot). perhaps you ought to read his book on meat.

If the content is not a debate ..what is it.

Bhai sahib has used some strong words for people who eat meat and their spirtuality...

<>

Well I can only say that it does not qaulify for Gurbani as per the touchstone of the Baani of Guru Granth Sahib Ji and the authentic Baani of Guru Gobind Singh Ji.

Remember when thr Baani of the Bhagats was being compiled, the Baanis of a lot of Bhagats was collected..including I think that of Peelu.

However Guru Maharaj only included the Baani of those Bhagats whose Baani was as per the rules of sikhi.

Also, do you know of a sect called Kabir Panthis ? Well they have a Granth of Kabir Ji and they say it is all authentic.

But it doesnt sound like Gurbaani ? Why ? Because it is not authentic.

In fact Guru Granth Sahib Ji is considered to be the most authentic source of Baani related to all Bhagats as welll.

<<go to that gobind sadan website. baba virsa singh will pay for your transport fares, accomodation and food if you visit his institute and debate over the dasam granth and its contents if u feel you have a valid argument. its true - it says it on teh website. >>

I have visited the website about one and half years ago..and had downloaded all the PDF's therein including of Charitropakhiyaan.

I am not a great debater or a very knowledgable sikh. But if Bab Virsa Singh is so sure of his claims why doesnt he invite more learned people like the Sikh Misionaries for discussion on the matter

Bhai Kala Afghana wrote a book more than 150 pages ....Why doesnt Bab Virsa Singh take upon him to reply to the queris raised by kala Afghana in his books.

Not only will this help in settling the debate once an for all, but also give a clear picture to the younger generation and to people like me ..

<<have a debate with him. he is knowledgable. dont debate with a moorakh 16 yr old who hasnt even read all of what we are actually discussing. >>

I dint know you were a 16 year old (or does that refer to the avg age of youngsters visitng this site) . And although I differ from your views w.r.t Charitaropakhyan, I must admit that you have good knowledge of many things.

I have read ur posts not only on this site with interest, but also on a sikh hater site. Well although u may not know, we have evn collaborated/supported each other's views ....on hitting thaat sikh hater guy hard..

(It was regarding the debate between Ditt Singh Ji and Dayanand..where Giani Ji ,....delivered a knock out)

BTW im going away for the weekeend but when i come back hopefully ill b loaded with 2 volumes of the 404 stories so i can check them out more fully.>>

Well all the better. Perhaps when u go through the stories you will realise....whether I am right or not. .....

P.S. Regarding Baba Virsa Singh...the lesser said the better about his political connections...

btw : u should hear his sikh thougts when he appears on TV (I think that was lashkaara Channel some 2 years ago).. and I think once u do...ur views about his knowledge will change.

There is NO ONE more knowledgeable than Guru Granth Sahib ji because it is Dhur Ki Baani.

[Gupt Singh]

safe

well i didnt manage 2 get hold of the book seriously, im gnna leave this debate for a bit...uve got hte upperhand for now cuz i really cant discuss something which i havent even read fully.......anyways ill start anotha thread on it l8a when i get a copy....

but you are using "bhai" kala afgana as a base for some of ur ideas........do u know what else kala afgana has said? do u agree with his views on the entire dasam granth? on amrit? if so, then i can understand why u dont accept tc404 if u cant even accept akal ustati!

4 now....hopefully sum clever ppl like my best friends lallehsvari and n30 can give their input a bit more

btw.........what was ur user name when i was on the arya samaji sikh hate site?

[BabbarSher]

Well, there are some translations of Dasam Granth available in the market...

by Pandit Narain Singh (Steek)

By Piara Singh Padam..

Aww comon Soulja... it is all discussion with the aim of accpeting what is best for the panth. I am sorry if I got too hot... or sounded egoistic

Anyway I have sent the PDF file for the refernece of Moderators. Please contact them for a copy. Otherwise I can also mail you a copy of the same..it is 150 pages....800 KB ..approx.

I dont agree 100% with what Bhai Kala Afhgaana has to say. He is human so he can make mistakes... but i must give credit wher it is due... he gives quotes from Guru Granth sahib Ji which i cannot refute.

Only God and Guru are abhul (So is Khalsa in the collective form....because then it is Satguru Poora).

I dont think Kala Afgahaan is against all the compilations of Dasam Granth. His base of writing all the books is in fact a couplet from Sarbloh Granth (Jabe eh gaye Bipran ki Reet).

I think some people got so offended by his way of writing that their egos wont let them respect him ..

Yes I agree that sometimes he goes overboard..........BUT he is very open to ideas ...(ast least thats what he says).

In Fact in many of the books he has written letters to a lot of jathedaars and Sampradas chief etc.....but noone replied to him.

I have all the PDF files of Kala Afghaana..( I have read 1st 3 volumes of Bipran Ki Reet) and one volume of his book on Dasam Granth...(Chritaropakhyan).

I am trying to read all the books.

Till now I have not been able to find too many faults with this person.

But I am very open minded......lets see if something odds creeps up in any of the other volumes.

Anyway I have asked some of the critics to give me the exact location of where he crtiticses Amrit ......or the accepted Baani etc....but no one seems interested in pin pointing anything.

My suggestion to you is also to read ....his books....give it a try...

My ID on that Arya Samaji site i think was maverickharry ...me thinks (made it to prevent that person froms ending spams ..) LOL

I couldnt blast that idiot too much though... thinking of returning.....care to join hands... ;-)

[Gupt Singh]

nah soz i was lookin for an english trans since my reading skills/non-general vocab in punjabi aint too hot ........ so it will probs have to be the pritpal singh bindra translation

for now i still give it the benefit of the doubt since i havent seen anything anti gurmat yet, and really, i cant debate on something which i havent read!

lol gwan then it wud b funny to rip it out of the arya samaji guy....im redy when u r

[Nihang Gargaj Singh]

For all those people who disown part of Gurbani here is the link for....

http://www.sikhawareness.com/sikhawareness...opic.php?t=2274

[Guest Javanmard]

Before even entering a discussion on Charitropakhyan one has to be conscious of the fact that the people who criticise it look at it from a 19th century Victorian repressed point of view. The fact remains that in Guru Gobind SIngh's India things were quite different and that these stories were not so much aof a scandal. They were consciously erotic, funny and releaving but far from scandalous or outrageous.

[Guest]

What's the conclusion of this discussion?

[BabbarSher]

Charitropakhyan is not Guru Gobind Singh Ji's Baani and the panth accepted it long time back :-)

[Guest]

dunno if anyones posted this link already, but below is a good read

http://www.gurmat.info/srec/srecarticles/s...opakhiyaan.html

also taken from the site in

As regards ( above, Gurtej Singh states “Chritropakhiayyan†is not Gurbani and discarded by some Jathedar of Akal Takhat already. Why it is not so, what does it lack? In this connection it may be stated that the Composition Chritropakhiayyan starts with the Guru’s signatures, and ends by his statement that this was written on the banks of river Sutlej and during the period indicated. The Guru has repeatedly stated that whatever he wrote was as directed by God Himself. The Big Question arises, whether this important and most powerful aspect of human life, in that a little slip in life, one is totally ruined, not only his/her life completely, but also totally tarnishes the fair name of the family, not only here but also the life hereafter, should be of no concern to us? No one can solve his problem, merely by ignoring it or merely condemning it irresponsibly and personal prejudices as, “we have gone to the extent of conferring high reverential status ON EVEN THE POETRY WHICH PREACHED ANTAGONISTIC DOCTRINES OR WHICH IS PURELY HEDONISTIC IN CHARACTER BUT IS INCLUDED IN THE SAME VOLUME BY SOME SINISTER SCRIBE.â€

We have stated about the moral degradation that one Giani Gian Singh stooped in apportioning blame on Guru Gobind Singh Jee that he worshipped goddess Chandi idols, performed havnas, and was even prepared to offer his four sons as a sacrifice to an idol of of some goddess, and was checked by his mother, whom he allegedly cursed, not Gujri, but ojri, and the shameless one Jathedar Kirpal Singh of Sri Darbar Sahib, and later of Sri Akal Takhat annotated Giani’s writing and highly commended by them. Such are the priests of Darbar Sahib and Akal Takhat, appointed by political corrupt leaders, and also members of the SGPC, elected by bribing the voters and distributing liquor to them. These IOSS stalwarts have no moral sense left in them, and decide moral issues by adopting such vulgarities, have no hesitation whom they dare slander - not an iota of veneration and faith left in them for their Creator God and the Guru!! Billions times shame on them.