BabbarSher Posted August 30, 2003 Report Share Posted August 30, 2003 Narisngha, I am asking you for the essence of the Triah Charitar and possibly an example or 2...... Anyway which Charitar do you want me to read.....I read quite a lot of it and dont find anything close to Gurbani. On a different not, can you also elaborate on the reason why Guru Ji would write extensively on the Charitar of women. Isnt it only women who have a Charitar and show chalitar. Dont men have different shades in their personalities? Can you guide me to a well written articel which describes about the central theme and moral of Triah Charitar? Really I wonder who people can say that Sahib Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji wrote such poems. People who say so are really trtying to degrade their Tenth Master. It is accepted by the whole Panth that Triah Charitar is NOT Guru Gobind Singh Ji's composition. Sorry for the delay in getting back to you ..as I havent visited the board in weeks. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 30, 2003 Report Share Posted August 30, 2003 It is accepted by the whole Panth that Triah Charitar is NOT Guru Gobind Singh Ji's composition. Dam-dami Takshal sampradama started by guroo gobind singh maharaj himself consider triah charitar as guroo's bani and nihangs do.. rara sahib takshal does too... For me i would trust sampradama started from guroo gobind singh maharaj time. Thank you 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jassa Posted August 30, 2003 Report Share Posted August 30, 2003 aside from what taksal say....nihungs say...or any other so called sampradama (no offense in that) wat do u believe about guru gobind singh ji?? would he write about the wiles of women... im gonna be honest....i havnt read it... but this is to narsingha, neo lalleshwari and anyone else who jumped on the sampradama bandwagon.... why would guru gobind singh ji write about the wiles of women... and dont say taksal believe in it or nihungs...you have a dimaag for yoursleves so id appreciate your views... first off id like to say that my view is that dasam granth is bani...BUT i havnt read it all of it...and therefore will hold that viewpoint until significant evidence against it is presented to me.... bhull chuk khimma 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 30, 2003 Report Share Posted August 30, 2003 why would guru gobind singh ji write about the wiles of women... and dont say taksal believe in it or nihungs...you have a dimaag for yoursleves so id appreciate your views... To make his singhs/singhani's aware of charitar of woman and men nature. There are wiles of woman and man not only woman 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jassa Posted August 30, 2003 Report Share Posted August 30, 2003 does it talk about men aswell?? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ideal Singh Posted August 30, 2003 Report Share Posted August 30, 2003 Is possessiveness Love? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BabbarSher Posted August 31, 2003 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2003 Hmm its amazing our people believe that Guru Maharaj wrote Treah Caharitar so as to make his singhs and singhanis aware of the characters of men and women. But what is surprising is that: 1. None of the 1st nine Gurus thoiught about writing on subject 2. When Guru Maharaj banned premarital and extramarital affairs for all sikhs and khalss.. (there are hymns given in Guru Granth Sahib ji and the Rehat Maryada also rejects pre or extra marital affairs), why would he write such an elaborate treatise on the viles of men and women and that too in an amourous way. 3. It ic clearly written in Treah charitar that no one can know about the mind of woman..and that God himself doesnt know about her. Does this sound like the writing of Guru Maharaj. Let us not put such words into the mouth of our Guru. 4. Most of the stories relate to Chhal Kapat of women....men are just shown to be mere puppets. 5. Is Treah Charitar a Nitnem Baani or something which can be read allowed in a sangat? I must clarify my position and say that there are some baanis of Dasam Granth that certainly are of Guru Gobind Singh Ji including Jaap Sahib, 33 sawayye etc. But definately not Triah Charitar..... Why are we so bent upon diluting and negating our religion. Kal Afghaana has made home a point. I wont say he is 100% correct on evrything and there are a number of points on which he goes overboard. (and yes his writing style is quite pessimistic ..not Chardi Kalaa). But then I notice the similarity in his writing and that of Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha, Sikh Missionaries.....and I think so many rational thinkers cannot be wrong. Wonders upon wonders..there are religions that have so many weak points and yet the try to hide their factual flaws, their spirtual hollowness.. and succeed too...and then we have sikhi.......pure and transparent as a gem.....and we try ourselves to introduce weaknesses into it. Comon guys what Seva are we doing when we say Treah Charitar is Guru Maharaj's Baani. I am not saying that its the fault of all the guys here that they belive in treah charitar.....I belive it is the fault of certain section of sikhs who are either knowingly or 'shardha vass' make others belive in this. I felt the way you felt N30 singh before I read the PDF file of Triah Charitar......and once I had read it ....my views changed totally. I dont think my views ever changed when I read Jaap Sahib...or the other authentic baanis of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. If anybody wants they can aks me for a link to Treah Charitar PDF and decide for themselves. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mugermach Singh Posted August 31, 2003 Report Share Posted August 31, 2003 to Caharitar or not to Caharitar. That is the question. 3. It ic clearly written in Treah charitar that no one can know about the mind of woman..and that God himself doesnt know about her. lol, deep down i always knew god was a women. Wish she was a man. All in favour of calling God a man, say Aye Serious point. Could you please tell me where about it says this cos i wanna read it. Dont really want to lug throught all 405 to find one line. Did you know that guru ji also salutes Maya, This doesnt sound right either, but it's in akal ustat. Is this bani!!!!! The whole world has gone bokners arguing of chariter, what about the 100 of pages b4 that in Dasam Grantn, i wonder what they say.... ps. just to clear why he salutes maya, because (to my understanding) it has bought down so many raja etc. I.e raja lost their land in persuit of maya. my understanding anyway. Fateh Ji. :shock: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gupt Singh Posted August 31, 2003 Report Share Posted August 31, 2003 i havent read all the stories but ive read probably about 20 of them from random sections. my personal feeling is yes, it is bani, please read it before you rip it out of it, although healthy debate is good. i dont know what akj views are and dnt particularly care, because from what i have read guruji doesnt glorify sex in any way at all infact it is a haaaarsh warning against it in the age where even some amritdhari/soon to be sikhs are having girlfriends and boyfriends, and sikh girls (im referring to monneh really) have a reputation of being the worst slappers of all asian girls, triyah chariter needs to be read MORE! im getting the entire set next weekend in english btw. theres a translation by pritpal singh bindra in 2 volumes, apparently his translation isa bit biased (against) tho. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tSingh Posted August 31, 2003 Report Share Posted August 31, 2003 Gurfateh There is a very interesting article by the scholar, Annemarie Schimmel (who I think is head of Islamic studies at Harvard) about the meaning of eros in Sufi texts. She points out that even the sternest Sufi ascetic was prone to a form of 'release' or relaxation through dirty jokes. The point being that serious spiritual practices produce a strong build-up of energy that needs to be released or let loose, otherwise the practitoner can loose focus. Even more interestingly, very famous highly spiritual texts such as Sanaa'i's 'Hadiqat al-haqiqa' and Rumi's 'Mathnawi' (given the honorous title of the 'Koran in Persian' by Jami) are examples of texts in which 'dirty jokes' are included. Rumi, one of the greatest of spiritual figures, himself states in book 5 of the Mathnawi 'my dirty jokes are not dirty jokes, but instruction' suggesting that he is referring to this letting loose. The reason why I think this is important and relevant here is that not only does Sri Dasam Granth contain Charitropakhyan but also Hikayats which displays a persian influence in Guruji's writings. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 31, 2003 Report Share Posted August 31, 2003 This is good topic to discuss but keep in mind that topic is "Triah Charitar...gurooBani or Not??" so stick to the topic otherwise I will lock it. I will look forward to see healthy discussion on this topic. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mugermach Singh Posted August 31, 2003 Report Share Posted August 31, 2003 if your talking about the tranlastion by surinder singh kolhi, Be prepared to be dissapointed. Its not in there. It is translated, but they aint selling it. Trying to get it myself. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gupt Singh Posted August 31, 2003 Report Share Posted August 31, 2003 nah muger singh its pritpal singh bindras one, and i saw it in a shop meself.....will get it next week fo sho! jtsingh......im not sure wat ur tryna imply........u saying the guru had to let out some spiritual energy????????????? gurbani is str8 from waheguru not some byproduct of stress.....and guruji was the perfect human and not affected by stress! i didnt get wat u meant about persian influence either. i think tis best to leave hakayat out of it since thats a totally different story due to authenticity issues.......its best to leave that to a different thread 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tSingh Posted August 31, 2003 Report Share Posted August 31, 2003 Gurfateh Khalsa Soulja 'gurbani is str8 from waheguru'. Does God talk about itself?! Why do you have a Guru? Unless of course you recognise that Guruji has brahmgyan and by following his teachings you can attain to brahmgyan. How? Through the Guru's expertise. Here comes the link...in Sufi literture, tales of women are used as a tool to provide a release. Unless of course you were stating that Guruji and God are one and the same, which is a whole debate in itself. You didn't understand the previous post. I am not suggesting that Guruji wrote Charitropakhyan due to a 'byproduct of stress'!!!! What I am showing is that in the Sufi tradition, writings are used as a tool to release a build-up of energies in the practitioner to keep them focused on the path. I thought some of the posters here might find that interesting. The reason I mentioned Hakayat is because it is further evidence for Guruji's knowledge of persian tales. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gupt Singh Posted September 1, 2003 Report Share Posted September 1, 2003 o. sorry bout that, didnt quite understand wat u meant. yeah maybe u got a point, i dnt really know enough about that whole thing. but either way, gurbani is divine and the words in SGGS and DG are divinely inspired. there are loads of lines in which it says something like "as He inspires me to speak these words, so do i speak them" and i remember one that is something like "gurb ani is from the primal being" ...... obviously they are not written like "I AM YOUR GOD PRAISE ME THIS IS GOD TALKING" but they were revelations over a long period of time............ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BabbarSher Posted September 1, 2003 Author Report Share Posted September 1, 2003 The following is mentioned in the Treah Charitar: Charitar Number 1: Chandi Charitar Aragh Garab TRIYAN ko bhed na payo jaye Meaning: No one can know of the mystery of the child in the womb, Kings and Females.. Anyway would the Guru say such a thing. This statement is false even froma scientific angle. In Charitar of Urvashi: Katha 109 there is even the mention of dildo and how it is used. !!!!!!! People like Piaara Singh padam who have written at length to prrove that some of the Kathas are actually of Guru Majarajs own experience: Piara singh says : 16, 21, 22, 23 and 15 What do the Treah Charitar supporters have to say on this. And let me just add...if language like usinga dildo, or explanation of having sex is not porno, what is ? Please read Kal Afghaana till Page 38 ( even if u r opposed to him). Let the truth come out. I am unable to copy the Punjabi Font from the PDF file, but If all want, I can highlight the PDF file of kala Afghana's third book on Treah Charitar and upload it for all to see on the Forum. I wil write in more detail on this ina a few days. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted September 1, 2003 Report Share Posted September 1, 2003 1. Chaupai Sahib is Bani 2. Chaupai Sahib is integral part of Charitropakhyan 3. Hence Charitropakhyan is bani as well If you consider Charitropakhyan not to be bani then that means you suspect Chaupai Sahib not to be bani either hence: you are a heretic! :twisted: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 1, 2003 Report Share Posted September 1, 2003 Here is great research on dasam granth sahib including chritropakhaiyan- http://www.gurmat.info/srec/srecarticles/s...opakhiyaan.html And also see articles on Dasam granth sahib ji- http://www.gurmat.info/srec/ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BabbarSher Posted September 2, 2003 Author Report Share Posted September 2, 2003 Your logic is unsurpassable Lalleshvari. Rather than addressing the points in my post, you are trying to intimidate people into towing your line. I dont see your comments on Piara Singh Padam's book. Surely he is considered an authority on and a supporter of the authenticity of Charitro Pakhyan Herectics are NOT those who say Charitar is the Baani of Guru Maharaj, rather i think those people are herectics, who respect their Guru but then out of illogic and (I dont know what 'majboori) put such words as in Charitropakhyan in the mouth of their Guru. We have over 1400 pages from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and lots of Panth accepted baanis of Guru Gobind Singh jie, yet why do we strive and bend over backwards to proove that stories like Charitar belong to Guru Ji. If Charitar is holy baani, then dont you think Purans (with their porno) and other paganistic books are holy as well. The same reason in support of these books could be given, as are given in support of Charitar. It could be said that these stories give one or the other moral. Have you read the book by swami Ram Tirath Ji Dandi Sanyaasi and why he respects Guru Granth Sahib Ji and why he changed his religion ?? I did hear somone (Mugremuch Singh) say that in Akal Ustat Guru Maharaj has written in praise of Maya. Although I would like to comment further on it once I have been provided with the exact words and ref. for the remarks, let me just say that in no Hindu myth is Maya supposed to be a Devi. It is supposed to be a power of God, his creation. Hence Guru Maharaj is not worshipping a Devi here. Bhagauti on the other hand is a devi and there is no doubt from the language of Charitro...that it is the devi that is being salute/worshipped. Please open your eyes. MODERATORS: Request permission to upload PDF files of Kala Afghaana containing the discussion. or suggestion for copying and pasting relvent portions from the PDF file containing punjabi. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gupt Singh Posted September 2, 2003 Report Share Posted September 2, 2003 dhariwalhs please explain to me how triyah charitrer got into the 1696 copy of the dasam granth, which has guru gobind singhs signatures ALL OVER IT, including in triyah charitrer. lol, its not like its a 1 or 2 line interpolation, it takes of half the granth! if you believe that triyah charitrer is pornographic, then tell me what constitutes pornography. every single story in the bani has a strong moral behind it of some kind or another. in SGGS there is plenty of mention of the happy soul bride being "ravished" by her husband lord....should we get rid of that too? porno is when there is sexually explicit material for sexual enjoyment. how bout u read every single stories in triyah charitrer and tell me each story had no moral, and was purely to incite sexual passion (kaam raas? lol) in the reader. what i dont understand is how some people on this forum admit they masturbate and think its ok aswell, but then on the other hand people start crying when they read stuff that is remotely linked to sex. peeps in the SGPC who claim triyah charitrer is evil are the same corrupt people who horde loads of money and do loads of dirty and sordid things in their lifetime....if anything the 404 stories should be a strong and vivid warning from entertaining sexual thoughts at all... to begin with i made the mistake of believing that the entire dasam granth was not gurbani but then i corrected myself and realised not only how narrow minded i was but also how much of a beating i was gonna get karma wise for slandering or doubting gurbani...... there are parts of chandi di var which are pretty violent.....imagine reading the bit where chandi rips out some demons intestines with her sword to a sangat full of old ladies with frail hearts.....will u complain about that too? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BabbarSher Posted September 2, 2003 Author Report Share Posted September 2, 2003 Dasam Granth of 1699 . Wow thats a new one Khalsa Soulja. What was the need for Guru Gobind Singh Jee to sign this Granth ? Have we witnessed anything of a similar nature for our beloved Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Please read the history of how Dasam Granth was compiled. Whats its original name was and how it became dassam granth and the dasam sri gur granth sahib. And ultimately now that its Prakash is done at an equal level with Guru Granth Sahib and people consider Dasam Granth as their Guru and also bow before it. The Granth was compiled by Bhai Mani Singh upon request of the Sangat (The whol incident is related to the rigteous killing of Massa Ranghar). Surely there is a lot of reference to the bonding of the soul to God in Guru Granth Sahib Ji, but please remember that it is referred to for a spirtual state, not physical. You are telling me to explain the moral of each story. How about you give me the moral of the stories I mentioned in my earlier mail. Stories to which people like Piara Singh Padam refer to as the experiences of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. Isnt this shame ? Again the blame is on SGPC. I am fan of SGPC, rather would be critic, but facts remain facts. Do you know the names of the Committe Members of the Rehat Maryada Committe. As far as I can remember one of the members was the highly respected Bhai Randhir Singh. Please refer the following link: http://www.sikh.net/sikhism/rehat_maryada.htm Giani Thakar Singh, Amritsar; Giani Sher Singh; Bhai Budh Singh; Akali Kaur Singh; Sant Sangat Singh of Kamaliya; Bhai Kahn Singh of Nabha; Sant Gulab Singh of Gholiya; Bhai Labh Singh, Granthi, Siri Harmandar Sahib; Bhai Hazur Singh of Hazur Sahib (or a representative of his); Pandit Basant Singh of Patiala; Bhai Vir Singh of Amritsar; Giani Hira Singh Dard; Bawa Harkishan Singh, Principal, Guru Nanak Khalsa College, Gujranwala; Bhai Trilochan Singh of Sur Singh, District Lahore; Giani Hamir Singh of Amritsar; Pandit Kartar Singh of Dakha, District Ludhiana; the Jathedar of Sri Akal Takht; the Jathedar of Takht Sri Kesgarh Sahib; the Jathedar of the Takht Sri Patna Sahib; Prof. Ganga Singh; Prof. Jodh Singh; Sant Man Singh of Kankhal; Justice Teja Singh; Bhai Randhir Singh; and Prof. Teja Singh (who was to be the convenor of the sub-committee). Are the above people not qualified in any manner ? Or would you say the same about them as you have about SGPC. Is there any composition in Guru Granth sahib which cannot be read aloud to the Sangat ? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gupt Singh Posted September 2, 2003 Report Share Posted September 2, 2003 "Dasam Granth of 1699 . Wow thats a new one Khalsa Soulja." lol.....1696...... Chaupaee (verse) "The Charitropakhyan compilation of Dasam Granth was completed on Sunday, the 8th day of the month of Bhadon, in 1753 Bikrami Sammat (August 24, A.D.1696), on the bank of the river Satluj." (Guru Gobind Singh Ji, Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji, Charitropakhyan 404) http://www.dasamgranth.org/dasamgranth/ "What was the need for Guru Gobind Singh Jee to sign this Granth ? Have we witnessed anything of a similar nature for our beloved Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. " yes we have, silly, there are loads of signatures all over the kartarpuri bir! im getting the impression that u dont actually know that much about what you are slandering. "Please read the history of how Dasam Granth was compiled. Whats its original name was and how it became dassam granth and the dasam sri gur granth sahib." there are looooooads of names that the dasam granth could be. but theres still a hand written copy that was finished in 1696 "And ultimately now that its Prakash is done at an equal level with Guru Granth Sahib and people consider Dasam Granth as their Guru and also bow before it." dasam granth is not the guru in the same was SGGS is, but dasam granth is gurbani and still deserves upmost respect.. "he Granth was compiled by Bhai Mani Singh upon request of the Sangat (The whol incident is related to the rigteous killing of Massa Ranghar)." do you think that there were random scraps of paper lying around that bhai mani singh just found sitting about? "Surely there is a lot of reference to the bonding of the soul to God in Guru Granth Sahib Ji, but please remember that it is referred to for a spirtual state, not physical." yes but there is a parallel drawn between ravishing the soul bride and achieving mukti. whether u like it or not, thats got a subtle sexual undertone. "You are telling me to explain the moral of each story. How about you give me the moral of the stories I mentioned in my earlier mail. Stories to which people like Piara Singh Padam refer to as the experiences of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. Isnt this shame ?" you will have to wait till teh weekend when i get a copy of it myself to read fully. then quote whatever story you want and i will find you a strong moral from it. if you can translate me the entire story in a unbiased manner i will also derive a moral from it. there was someone called anup kaur who tried to seduce the guru but failed miserably. her story is also in the triyah charitrer stories under a different name i think. "Again the blame is on SGPC." the sgpc were the ones who said it wasnt gurbani. taksal akj and nihungs seem to be fine with it. "I am fan of SGPC, rather would be critic, but facts remain facts. Do you know the names of the Committe Members of the Rehat Maryada Committe. As far as I can remember one of the members was the highly respected Bhai Randhir Singh." bhai sahib thought keski was a kakkar but u dont see that in the sgpc rehat. same for kuttha issues etc. gurmukhs are easy going like that, they dont force their opinions on anyone. you can quote as many names as you like, but everyone makes mistakes. did you know that the famous gyani ditt singh didnt believe in the ragmalla and thought it was part of a love story? same with bhai sahib randhir singh (although he may have changed his view late in life, we dont know) .... incidentally bhai randhir singh did a huge study on the dasam granth, mostly using the bir that i talked about that was compiled in 1696, to prove every line of it was gurbani. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niranjana Posted September 2, 2003 Report Share Posted September 2, 2003 Gur Fateh to All! There was an interesting article written by one Balbir Singh entitled the "waterites" which I would recommend all to read. (Should I be able to locate it again, I shall post here in due course). Khalsa Soulja, thanks for your honest and heart rendered comments, I too like yourself, underwent a period of doubting much of the Dasam Granth when I read more and more of it (with my strict logically mind) and I do now sincerely repent for every second of doubt and pray that I be forgiven for such a horrendous act of thought and speech... ...yes, I did, by Guru Maharaj's Kirpa, begun to awaken to the truth surrounding the Dasam Granth -YES!!! THIS IS BANI! As per the status, let us, leave aside whatever 'Sakhia' we may have heard -these are more likely to be riddled with historical inaccuracies than anything else -please TRUST Bani... ...as already shown (by Khalsa Soulja) the references in the Dasam Granth straight after the 'Arril' which follows after the full 'Benti-Chaupai' as per all Puratan Gutka Raheraas Bani, gives plenty of indication for the actual date of writing of the Dasam Granth... Similarly, let's concentrate on "BANI HAI GURU; GURU HAI BANI!" If one does desire historical / associated Sakhia, please consider the fact that Guru Arjan Dev Ji from the time of completion of the Adi-Granth, always placed the Granth at a higher level than him and all Sikhs showed due reverence to it from that day onwards...as Guru! As per Treh Charitr, I've read most of Pritpal Singh's translation and have been told by many that this work is incomplete, nonetheless, I personally do not find this to be insulting or otherwise...there are references in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib which use explicit terms too. For instance, consider the following snippets:- mai math joban garab gaalee dhudhhaa thhanee n aaveae || Intoxicated with the wine of youthful pride, she has been ruined, and her breasts no longer yield milk. -Guru Nanak Dev Ji Raag Gauree 242 dhudhhaa thhanee n aavee fir hoe n maelaa ||2|| Milk does not return to the breast; it will not be collected again. ||2|| -Bhagat Sheikh Fareed Ji Raag Soohee 794 And also in Bhai Gurdas Ji di Varan:- mohan maamae paaeioun baahar aaee garab gehaelee|| With great pride she pressed her breast teat in the mouth of Krishna and came out. -Bhai Gurdaas Ji Vaars Bhai Gurdaas 10 The above snippets of course need to be read in context of the entire shabd, just as the Treh Chartr does and much of the Dasam Granth. I would like to address some points raised by Dhariwalhs above -these are my personal opinions founded upon my limited understanding of Bani and experience of the Shabd. The following is mentioned in the Treah Charitar: Charitar Number 1: Chandi Charitar Aragh Garab TRIYAN ko bhed na payo jaye Meaning: No one can know of the mystery of the child in the womb, Kings and Females.. Anyway would the Guru say such a thing. This statement is false even froma scientific angle. Dhariwalhs, please could you provide a full reference for this quotation as I couldn't locate this in the 1st Charitr, however giving you the benefit of doubt, as per your two subsequent questions, let's take the last one initially. Wrong from a scientific point of view, sure, but are you reading a science manual? May sound like a silly question, but think about it. Look back at the quotations above from the Sri Guru and also consider the following:- agan bi(n)b jal bheethar nipajae kaahae ka(n)m oupaaeae ||1|| We are formed from the fire of the womb within, and the bubble of water of the sperm. For what purpose are we created? ||1|| -Guru Nanak Dev Ji Raag Gauree 156 There are many references in the Sri Guru to the "fire of the womb" surely this doesn't refer to an actual fire! It's the use of descriptive words, methaphors, symbolism et al -and there's a reason for doing this beyond mere poetry's sake...look at the following:- dhas maas maathaa oudhar raakhiaa bahur laagee maaeiaa ||1|| For ten months He preserved you in your mother's womb, and then, after you were born, you became attached to Maya. ||1|| -Bhagat Kabeer Ji Raag Aasaa 481 Now 10months! That's inaccurate by Scientific means too! As are other references in the Sri Guru to elements as such "ether", the "three worlds" and so on...consider the following 'tuk';- aakaasee paathaal thoo(n) thribhavan rehiaa samaae || You are pervading throughout the Akaashic Ethers, the nether regions and the three worlds. -Guru Nanak Dev Ji Siree Raag 62 These references are made for a variety of reasons, some because they were the terms, understanding, beliefs of the people at the time, others for poetic metaphors and others for symbolic pursuit...the last one is of particular importance. Symbols are universally used to aid individuals in day to day secular life and in their spiritual life, they require continous thought, the principles they allude to, the ideals they point to, develop with us and keep us guided. Keep faith in the Sri Guru, the bani of the Dasam Granth is of a different nature and should always be read in the light of the Sri Guru, which prepares one for all pursuits. This mail has already got too long! I ask that I be forgiven for any foolish comments in the forgoing... BIR RAS DE NAAL: "GUR BAR AKAAAAL!" 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niranjana Posted September 2, 2003 Report Share Posted September 2, 2003 Gur Fateh! Again! Here's the article I referred to, please read this and reflect...and my apologies it's not titled the waterites, but "THE GREAT DEBATE" "NAAM JAPPO MEREY SAAJAN SENA!" Gur Bar Akaaaaal! NOTE REFERRED TO: 17.2 The Great Debate Once upon a time, in a vast desert where the scorching sun shone 24 hours a day, there lived a withering community amongst whom was a group of radiant Water-Ites. They worshipped the scarce commodity called water. In their temple was a huge glass tank. People would come here and bow with reverence. The priest would tell them stories from days gone by about the Wise Old Teacher who had brought the drink of life to them. The Wise Old Teacher had told them of a great and wonderful ocean that he'd travelled far and wide to find. Returning to the desert he had brought the sacred water and left it in the huge glass tank for all to drink. While the Wise Old Teacher was alive, people from miles around would come and quench their thirst, word spread fast and many people adopted Waterism as their way of life. They loved water, it made their dried up bodies feel rejuvinated. The heat of the scorching sun had made most of the town's people irratible and angry, they fought each other over petty things because they were so mentally anguished. But this 'Water' cooled them down and their mind and body bloomed and blossomed with every sip. When the Wise Old Teacher left this world and dived back into the Supreme Cool Ocean, the problems began. One day, while the Priest was telling stories of old, he looked at the tank and noticed something. He said, 'Dearly beloved, today the tank is exactly half full'. Before he could continue an angry man in the congregation got up and shouted, 'NO IT'S NOT! IT'S EXACTLY HALF EMPTY!' It was midday and the heat was at it's worst. The priest jumped up greatly offended at being criticised infront of his congregation and shouted back 'NO YOU STUPID FOOL, IT'S EXACTLY HALF FULL'. And the poor uneducated congregation just got confused. Some of them agreed with the priest, some agreed with the angry man and some weren't sure. Fighting ensued and the angry man was thrown out. As he marched home he planned how to get control over the temple, it infuriated him that such an ignorant man as the priest was in charge of the Water-Ites. A few months passed. He recruited the top scientists and they produced detailed mathematical calculations that proved beyond any possible doubt that the tank was exactly half-empty. The Priest on other hand appealed to the hearts of the people, he spoke sweetly and sung songs about how if you were a true Waterite you would be deeply hurt by the people who said anything other than the tank was half-full. Now every Sunday the Waterites would go to the temple and discuss the latest mathematical evidence, or what the Priest had been saying. People who didn't have an opinion on the subject were scorned at for not caring enough about their holiest of holy tank of water. These people said we are thirsty and just want to have a drink, but they were in the minority and soon forgotton about. They carried on coming early every morning taking a sip then leaving. Now and again they would go to the main Sunday gathering and plead to the people to take a daily drink, but both sides would just say, 'Are you mad? The great debate is such a major crisis that we must spend all our energy defending the truth, no time to drink!' Now people in the community said 'Look at those Waterites, a bunch of hypocrites, they act all holy and w wording to HALF-FULL without asking anyone. Somehow the temple hierarchy let him get away with it. They were too busy counting all the money that was pouring into the temple funds to care about wording. And early every morning, while the withered ones were still sleeping, a radiant Waterite would walk into the temple past, take a sip and walk home again with a smile on her face, fully rejuvinated. -- -------- Raag Mala, Meat, 5th K, which Nitnem Banees, Saas-Giraas Breathing Techniques......arguing about these is all Maya's illusion and keeps us from quenching our thirst.... Raam Japo Jee Aise Aise, Dhroo Prahlad Japio Har Jaise... Meditate on Naam like Bhagat Dhroo and Prahlad did. I.E They were thirsty for God's Vision and determined, being children they were innocent and simple and spared from getting side-tracked by religious rights and wrongs. While millions of pundits, brahmins, scholars and Hindus probably discussed one hundred and one Hindu controversies, the Bhagats had God-shaped holes in their hearts that their constant Naam Simran filled. Guru Amar Das Jee sings a beautiful shabad about controversies: SIREE RAAG, THIRD MEHL (panna 68) The demon's son Prahlaad had not read about religious rituals or ceremonies, austerity or self-discipline; he did not know the love of duality. Upon meeting with the True Guru, he became pure; night and day, he chanted the Naam, the Name of the Lord. He read only of the One and he understood only the One Name; he knew no other at all. || 4 || The Pandits, the religious scholars, read and argue and stir up controversies, but without the Guru, they are deluded by doubt. They wander around the cycle of 8.4 million reincarnations; without the Shabad, they do not attain liberation. But when they remember the Name, then they attain the state of salvation, when the True Guru unites them in Union. || 6 || Taken from : http://www.gurmatps.org/gps/index.html?../...he_great_debate 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BabbarSher Posted September 3, 2003 Author Report Share Posted September 3, 2003 Niranjana & Khalsa Soulja, Gimme a day and you will get complete answers to all your questions. KhalsaSoulja has more logic but he will get a reply. Sorry it was 1696 (my mistake......) So Soulja ji the Granth was compiled even before Khalsa Came into being ? Great !! (So all of the compositions related to Khalsa ....Khalsa mero roop hai khaas [which I believe are authentic] were composed before 1699 !!! (am I making a mistake again in the dates ..dear?) Ohh and my apologies Soulja Ji. I dont have as much knowledge of gurbaani as you do. :roll: You give the reference to Anup Kaur's story. I wonder how you knew I was going to raise this one with you ? Does this story speak highly of the character of Amritdhaari women? Isnt this a concocted story to blemish the character of Khalsa? Think before you speak much less leap ? However, Niranjana , you have gone too far...the quotations given in Guru Granth Sahib refer to the breasts of the mother, my dear honeybug? Dont you find any difference in these wordings and the wordings of the Treah Charitar expressions like Chumna Chatna and things like Dildo .... Chapti? The again you refer to the Chadi Charitar wherein I quoted that no one can know about the mystery of the child in the womb ? and the you again equate it to quoatations from Guru Granth Sahib Ji and say that the fire doe not refer to the actual fire. Yes it is true that the fire does not refer to the actual fire. But what other meaning can you come up with from the couplet I quoted. I will be much obliged if you can throw some light on the new meaning ? Again is it only Women, who's minds mystery cannot be known? Can the mystery of mens mind be known with utmost ease. Have you read about Sikander's Charitar? Anyway I will write in further detail in a day giving all the quotations and also the page numbers. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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