3 Wives of Guru Sahib?

[Trimandeep Singh]

Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

Daas is pained to see that in today's modern world, RSS and other anti Sikh organizations have been successfully able to popularize anti gurmat opinions among Khalsa Panth and Guru Nanak Naam Leva Sangat.

Multiple times these anti Sikh organizations have been identified as doing fake propaganda in the name of supporting and celebrating Sikhi.

On the Gurupurab of Dhan Guru Tegh Bahadur Sahib Ji, RSS declared that it will too celebrate the Holy auspicious event. And with no surprise, at the large stage RSS leader openly quoted the Shabad 

'Deh Shiva Bar Mohe Ehai' and said Guru Gobind Singh Ji is asking for a boon to Shiva.

Not only this but Shiv Sena extremists tried to file a case against Sikh community to bring up a law that Sikhs should be allowed to wear only a 4-6 inch Kirpan. The list is endless.

One such opinion that has been popularly spread in the panth is that Guru Gobind Singh Ji had 3 wives.

Daas respects Mahakavi Santokh Singh Ji alot and we can't thank him enough to collect the saakhis of unbelievable karamaats of guru sahibaan. However, it must be noted that the Granth also contains some saakhis which attack the Ucha character of Guru Sahib like doing jhatka on Vaisakhi, Mai Bhago stories, Devi Pooja etc.

The following has been taken from another forum. The post is of a very knowledgeable Rehitvaan Gursikh Bhai Sahib Kulbir Singh Toronto who along with other gursikhs is doing excellent parchar of Sikhi through GURMAT BIBEK CHANNEL on YouTube.

***POST STARTS***

History collected by Mahakavi Santokh Singh jee in Sooraj Prakash has not been refined by Mahakavi jee. He went from village to village and recorded whatever he heard from senior citizens of that time. He did not try to verify or authenticate what he heard and just wrote whatever he heard. We are grateful to him for not judging what he heard and just writing it. I think his function was not writing history but collecting all information possible from people, including local traditions.

The Saakhi of 7 marriages of Siri Guru Har Rai Sahib jee is totally absurd. The only Mehal Guru Sahib had was Mata Kishan Kaur jee. Similarly, the Saakhi of 3 marriages of Siri Guru Hargobind Sahib jee too should be taken with a grain of salt. Not that it makes a difference, even if it was true, because worldly rules don't apply on Guru Sahib but still it is highly unlikely, that Guru Sahib had 3 Mehals. Same is true for Siri Guru Gobind Singh jee. Mata jeeto jee and Mata Sundari jee was probably the same person with Mata Jeeto jee being her name in her parent's home and Mata Sundari jee was the name given by her in-laws. And Mata Sahib Kaur was not a Mehal of Guru Sahib in worldly sense.

Guru Sahib knows better.

Kulbir Singh

***POST ENDS***

Daas would also like to add something. We shouldn't forget that Guru Sahib were perfect and would never do anything against Gurmat Principles. EK NAARI JATI HOYE is a key principle of a Sikh's Grihast Jeevan. Moreover, Guru Sahib always practiced what he preached, not like today's modern day Sikh parcharaks. 

ਔਰਨਕਹਾਉਪਦੇਸਤਹੈਪਸੁਤੋਹਿਪ੍ਰਬੋਧਨਲਾਗੋ॥
O Animal! why do you preach to others, when you are quite ignorant on what you are preaching? 

Guru Sahib would always practice what he preached. He was a true Sant Sipahi and set an example that what a Sikh can do if he follows Rehat and reads bani and japs naam. 

May Guru Sahib bless us all with Bibek Budhi and Prem for Bani 

Bhul chuk maaf 

Trimandeep Singh 

[paapiman]

2 hours ago, Trimandeep Singh said:

Daas would also like to add something. We shouldn't forget that Guru Sahib were perfect and would never do anything against Gurmat Principles. EK NAARI JATI HOYE is a key principle of a Sikh's Grihast Jeevan. Moreover, Guru Sahib always practiced what he preached, not like today's modern day Sikh parcharaks. 

Again, please DO NOT apply Gurbani to the Satgurus (incarnations of the Almighty GOD) themselves. Monogamy is a Hukam for us, not for Satgurus.

Maharaaj also told his Sikhs to practice mercy on all creatures, but there was a Sakhi, where Sri Satguru jee (Tenth Master) mercilessly killed a creature. He did that to give liberation to that soul. Some Nindaks of Maharaaj might make negative comments on this sakhi too.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

3 hours ago, Trimandeep Singh said:

The only Mehal Guru Sahib had was Mata Kishan Kaur jee

Daas is almost certain that the mothers of Baba Ram Rai jee and Sri Satguru jee (Eighth Master) were different.

Mata Ram Kaur jee was the mother of Baba Ram Rai jee

Mata Kishan Kaur jee was the mother of Sri Satguru jee (Eighth Master).

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

3 hours ago, Trimandeep Singh said:

Similarly, the Saakhi of 3 marriages of Siri Guru Hargobind Sahib jee too should be taken with a grain of salt.

Sri Satguru jee (Sixth Master) had 3 wives.

Mata Damodari jee went away to Sachkhand, before Maharaaj himself. She was the mother of Baba Gurditta jee, Baba Ani Rai jee and Bibi Veero jee.

Mata Nanaki jee went to Baba Bakale, along with Sri Satguru jee (Ninth Master). 

Mata Mahadevi jee probably stayed with Baba Suraj Mal jee.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

3 hours ago, Trimandeep Singh said:

Guru Sahib would always practice what he preached. He was a true Sant Sipahi and set an example that what a Sikh can do if he follows Rehat and reads bani and japs naam. 

 

Let me ask you a question.

From a WORDLY perspective, do you think that the life of Sri Satguru jee (First Master) was that of an ideal householder?

Are you aware that the in-laws of Sri Satguru jee (First Master) were very disappointed and angry at him?

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[Trimandeep Singh]

12 hours ago, paapiman said:

Again, please DO NOT apply Gurbani to the Satgurus (incarnations of the Almighty GOD) themselves. Monogamy is a Hukam for us, not for Satgurus.

Maharaaj also told his Sikhs to practice mercy on all creatures, but there was a Sakhi, where Sri Satguru jee (Tenth Master) mercilessly killed a creature. He did that to give liberation to that soul. Some Nindaks of Maharaaj might make negative comments on this sakhi too.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

I don't think there's any wrong in this.

Baba Banda Singh Bahadur also mercilessly killed the Jallaads responsible for Shaheedi of Chhote Sahibzaade, but that was out of Bir Ras, not anger.

I have heard stories of Guru Sahib where he would easily do shikaar of ferocious beasts. One such saakhi was told by Giani Jangbir Singh Ji that once some Rajas told Guru Sahib that there's a huge lion in the jungle who doesn't let people travel across cities. Guru Sahib went there and asked the Raaje if there was any soorma in their army who can kill this beast. The answer was no. Guru Sahib tied his kamar kassa and prepared to confront it. Bhai Sango Shah (brother) asked Mama Kirpal Daas (I think this was the name of their Mamaji) to stop guru sahib. When Mama Ji approached guru sahib, he couldn't hold the Lalli and glow on guru sahib's face! He couldn't speak a single word and backed. Then guru sahib showed his jauhar and killed that beast. 

Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji also killed a snake and gave it the power to speak to gursikhs. The snake told them that he was a fake saadhu in his previous life and made people 'Matha tek' to him. As a result he was born as a 'Sarp' and the insects that were waking on his dead body (snake) were his chele (disciples) and those who worshipped him.

As per Gurmat, I don't think that a Sikh can't do this. If he is killing an animal to save a human or for a good purpose (not for Jihb Rass) then there's no harm in this.

Trimandeep Singh 

[Trimandeep Singh]

11 hours ago, paapiman said:

Let me ask you a question.

From a WORDLY perspective, do you think that the life of Sri Satguru jee (First Master) was that of an ideal householder?

Are you aware that the in-laws of Sri Satguru jee (First Master) were very disappointed and angry at him?

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Bhai sahib, the opinion of this Kalyugi world doesnt matter to Guru Sahib and his Gursikhs and Sharadhavan Sangat.

A householder doesn't mean that after work, you come home and have gossips with your wife and teach maths to your children. As a Sikh, one has to have a Gristi Jeevan, do bhagti and do parchaar of Sikhi as well. Guru Sahib was an ideal householder.

I would consider those parcharaks an ideal householder as well who don't earn through jobs and business but do parchaar across the world and the panth takes care of their household needs through Daswandh given by sangat.

Bhul chuk maaf 

Trimandeep Singh

[paapiman]

2 hours ago, Trimandeep Singh said:

I don't think there's any wrong in this.

So what's wrong with the Satgurus having multiple wives?

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

2 hours ago, Trimandeep Singh said:

Bhai sahib, the opinion of this Kalyugi world doesnt matter to Guru Sahib and his Gursikhs and Sharadhavan Sangat.

Good point, that's why you should have NO problem is believing that the Satgurus had multiple wives. There is historical evidence available for it.

Even if one of the Satguru had 100 wives, a Gursikh will not have any doubt in his/her mind regarding this issue.

Even, Sri Krishan jee ( a Demi-God) had thousands of wives.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

4 hours ago, Trimandeep Singh said:

I would consider those parcharaks an ideal householder as well who don't earn through jobs and business but do parchaar across the world and the panth takes care of their household needs through Daswandh given by sangat.

But, Sri Satguru jee (First Divine Master) did not accept Daswandh and send it back to his wife and kids. So, it is possible that some Nindaks might say that he did not follow his own teachings.

Satgurus are Samrath. They can do whatever they want. It is very hard (for an ordinary person) to comprehend all the Kautaks of Maharaaj.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[chatanga1]

On 5/19/2021 at 4:56 PM, Trimandeep Singh said:

On the Gurupurab of Dhan Guru Tegh Bahadur Sahib Ji, RSS declared that it will too celebrate the Holy auspicious event. And with no surprise, at the large stage RSS leader openly quoted the Shabad 

'Deh Shiva Bar Mohe Ehai' and said Guru Gobind Singh Ji is asking for a boon to Shiva.

 

Hey Bro, just a few words I'd like to add to this topic.

If the RSS celebrate Hind-ki-Chadar Guru Tegh Bahadar Ji's shaheedi purb in the correct context, then it's good yes?

(Mis)Quoting Gurbani has always been a major trademark of these Hindu organisations, and they will always claim that "hari/Ram/Thakur" etc are references to their gods. Our job is to counter that. To always stay active and one sep ahead.

This same "Deh Shiva" was proof tht the Guru asked Shiv Ji for a boon according to a Sikh friend of mine. Let's start at home and educate those first.

 

On 5/19/2021 at 4:56 PM, Trimandeep Singh said:

One such opinion that has been popularly spread in the panth is that Guru Gobind Singh Ji had 3 wives.

How did such an "opinion" become so "popularly spread" in the Panth? That's what you have to ask yourself. Maybe, just maybe because there is truth to it?

The fact is that it wasn't just Guru Sahib who had more than one wife. Bhai Mani Singh aslo had 2 wives who gave birth to 11 children between them.

 

 

On 5/19/2021 at 4:56 PM, Trimandeep Singh said:

Daas respects Mahakavi Santokh Singh Ji alot and we can't thank him enough to collect the saakhis of unbelievable karamaats of guru sahibaan. However, it must be noted that the Granth also contains some saakhis which attack the Ucha character of Guru Sahib like doing jhatka on Vaisakhi, Mai Bhago stories, Devi Pooja etc.

These saakhis don't attack the character of the Guru in any way if they are understood properly. According to Sikh tradition, Guru HarGobind Sahib started jhatka outside Sri Akal Bunga after Guru Arjan Dev Ji's shaheedi. This practice was only stopped in 1940s by SGPC.

 

The saakhi of Mai Bhago has been grossly distorted to claim that Mai Bhago was in Guru Sahib's presence all the time naked, when she wasn't. The first time she came to Guru Sahib's hazuri naked, Guru Sahib told her it wasn't right and told her to keep herself covered. But listening to cretins they push the story that Mai Bhago was always with Guru Sahib naked.

 

The Devi Pooja story also finds itself in other texts as well but with differing stories. Maybe if you can locate a text or screen shot of the text we can look at it for ourselves here? And compare it with others?

 

 

On 5/19/2021 at 4:56 PM, Trimandeep Singh said:

History collected by Mahakavi Santokh Singh jee in Sooraj Prakash has not been refined by Mahakavi jee. He went from village to village and recorded whatever he heard from senior citizens of that time. He did not try to verify or authenticate what he heard and just wrote whatever he heard. We are grateful to him for not judging what he heard and just writing it. I think his function was not writing history but collecting all information possible from people, including local traditions.

I also thought this at one time. This post was made in response to a post I made on Sikh sangat.com :

 

"Kavi Bhai Santokh Singh Ji, was a poet indeed, but beyond that he was an immense vidhvaan of the Panth. He was a great scholar and theologian too, as is exemplified by his Japji Sahib translation in his Garab Ganjani Teeka. 

I would say Bhai Santokh Singh Ji also fits the mold of an historian. It was immense work and research he did compiling historical literature/records, recording oral accounts, visiting historical sites, and then analyzing all the information, scrutinizing it for accuracy, and compiling it all into the poetic masterpiece that is Suraj Parkash.

He may even be the Panth's foremost historian!"

 

On 5/19/2021 at 4:56 PM, Trimandeep Singh said:

The Saakhi of 7 marriages of Siri Guru Har Rai Sahib jee is totally absurd. The only Mehal Guru Sahib had was Mata Kishan Kaur jee.

This saakhi is found in Gurbilas Patshahi 10vi written by Kavi Koer Singh in 1741. This is most likely where Kavi Ji found this, but I'm with you on this one, I don't think there were 7 mahals.

 

On 5/19/2021 at 4:56 PM, Trimandeep Singh said:

Similarly, the Saakhi of 3 marriages of Siri Guru Hargobind Sahib jee too should be taken with a grain of salt. Not that it makes a difference, even if it was true, because worldly rules don't apply on Guru Sahib but still it is highly unlikely, that Guru Sahib had 3 Mehals.

The texts from those times, all confirm the 3 marriages of Guru Sahib. I'm thinking that Kulbir Singh possibly thinks one, because he is afraid to answer to those who claim "equality" thinking a man should and could only have one wife. Yousee, it's very hard to explain multiple marriages without giving the impression that it was for adult purposes/wealth only etc.

 

On 5/19/2021 at 4:56 PM, Trimandeep Singh said:

Mata jeeto jee and Mata Sundari jee was probably the same person with Mata Jeeto jee being her name in her parent's home and Mata Sundari jee was the name given by her in-laws.

This is nonsense that has been disproved time and time again. There are 3 separate chikkas of all 3 mahals. How could the Sikhs just invent a chikka and raise a monument there with no-one questioning them?

 

 

On 5/19/2021 at 4:56 PM, Trimandeep Singh said:

EK NAARI JATI HOYE is a key principle of a Sikh's Grihast Jeevan.

And another line which has been grossly distorted to try and prove something.

[paapiman]

1 hour ago, chatanga1 said:

And another line which has been grossly distorted to try and prove something.

What do you mean bro? Can you please explain?

Strict monogamy is a core Sikh value.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

1 hour ago, chatanga1 said:

This saakhi is found in Gurbilas Patshahi 10vi written by Kavi Koer Singh in 1741. This is most likely where Kavi Ji found this, but I'm with you on this one, I don't think there were 7 mahals.

Isn't it also found in Navneen Panth Prakash by Gyani Gyan Singh jee?

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

1 hour ago, chatanga1 said:

I'm thinking that Kulbir Singh possibly thinks one, because he is afraid to answer to those who claim "equality" thinking a man should and could only have one wife. Yousee, it's very hard to explain multiple marriages without giving the impression that it was for adult purposes/wealth only etc.

Do you know Bhai Kulbir Singh jee?

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

1 hour ago, chatanga1 said:

According to Sikh tradition, Guru HarGobind Sahib started jhatka outside Sri Akal Bunga after Guru Arjan Dev Ji's shaheedi.

Which is the earliest historical source which talks about Jhatka maryada?

Is Jhatka also done at Sri Patna Sahib?

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[chatanga1]

On 5/20/2021 at 7:24 PM, paapiman said:

What do you mean bro? Can you please explain?

Strict monogamy is a core Sikh value.

This line has been discussed a few times on this forum. Will try and locate a thread and add it here.

 

Strict monogamy is not a core Sikh value. It never has been. Throughout the times, Sikh men did take more than one wife and there was never any issue over it. This change to monogamy happened when the British took over Panjab, and tried to enforce their marriage views on the populace. Sikhs and Hindus acquiesced whilst the Muslims didn't.

 

On 5/20/2021 at 7:25 PM, paapiman said:

Isn't it also found in Navneen Panth Prakash by Gyani Gyan Singh jee?

I think Gyani Gyan Singh ji wrote that Guru Sahib married 4 wives who each brought a female attendent to the Guru's house as well.

 

On 5/20/2021 at 7:26 PM, paapiman said:

Do you know Bhai Kulbir Singh jee?

no bro.

 

On 5/20/2021 at 7:28 PM, paapiman said:

Which is the earliest historical source which talks about Jhatka maryada?

Is Jhatka also done at Sri Patna Sahib?

Don't know and possibly think there isn't one. The earliest source that talks about jhatka to my knowledge in Dhadi Nath Mal's Amarnama, where he details the Sikhs doing jhatka of Madho Das' animals in his ashram.

 

Yes jhatka is done at Sri Patna Sahib.

[paapiman]

26 minutes ago, chatanga1 said:

Strict monogamy is not a core Sikh value. It never has been. Throughout the times, Sikh men did take more than one wife and there was never any issue over it

Strict monogamy is a CORE value of Sikhism bro. Even if Sikhs practiced polygamy, it DOES NOT prove that it is allowed in Sikhism. 

There is enough evidence from Vaaran of Bhai saab Bhai Gurdas jee Maharaaj to suggest that monogamy is highly preferred for a Sikh. One is "Eka Naaree Jatee Hoaye Par Naaree Dhee Bhen Bakhanai".

The other verse is below.

ਦੁਹ ਨਾਰੀ ਦਾ ਦੂਲਹਾ ਦੁਹ ਮੁਨਸਾ ਦੀ ਨਾਰਿ ਵਿਣਸੈ।

Husband of two women and the wife of two husbands are bound to perish;

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[GurjantGnostic]

9 hours ago, paapiman said:

Strict monogamy is a CORE value of Sikhism bro. Even if Sikhs practiced polygamy, it DOES NOT prove that it is allowed in Sikhism. 

There is enough evidence from Vaaran of Bhai saab Bhai Gurdas jee Maharaaj to suggest that monogamy is highly preferred for a Sikh. One is "Eka Naaree Jatee Hoaye Par Naaree Dhee Bhen Bakhanai".

The other verse is below.

ਦੁਹ ਨਾਰੀ ਦਾ ਦੂਲਹਾ ਦੁਹ ਮੁਨਸਾ ਦੀ ਨਾਰਿ ਵਿਣਸੈ।

Husband of two women and the wife of two husbands are bound to perish;

 

Bhul chuk maaf

That could be the equivalent to the two boat metaphor though. 

[paapiman]

20 hours ago, GurjantGnostic said:

That could be the equivalent to the two boat metaphor though. 

That could be the Anthriv Arth of that verse.

What about the Rehatname? What do they say about monogamy?

@chatanga1

 

Bhul chuk maaf