Niranjana Posted December 11, 2003 Report Share Posted December 11, 2003 Vaheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa! Vaheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!! A question was raised on another forum about attending Churches (which I would expand to include all other places of worship) as a Sikh. A common recurring theme was that one can do so, but shouldn’t engage in reading another scriptures or praising their leaders with the use of some Savaiyae, Dohras and Chaupais from the Dasam Granth. Please find my comments below address to the forum members on this topic, I post these here for feedback from members of this forum who may not be part of the other discussion. As always I look forward to receiving your feedback, corrections, improvements or expansion on any of these points. Humbly, Niranjana NOTE REFERRED TO: You mentioned the Savaiya “Pahein gahey jabtay tumray...†from Ram Avtar, Sri Dasam Granth Sahib, as a means to indicate that we as Sikhs of the Guru only recognise the authority of Akal Purakh and none other, indeed as we declare in our commitment upon taking Amrit and our address of “Vaheguroo Ji Ka Khalsa†[The Khalsa is sole property of Vaheguroo alone]. However, if this is to indicate that we cannot partake in reading and sharing the knowledge of other religious and spiritual traditions, please could you explain the meaning of the following lines also from Ram Avtar. “Ram Katha Jug Jug atal, sub ko baakath net...†[The Story of Ram (Ramayan) is timeless and should be read by all...] Guru Ji then later expands this upon to say... “Jo eh katha suney aur gaavey, dookh paap nikat naa aavey, Bishen (Vishnu) bhagat ki eh phal hovey aad beyaad sva shkay naa koy†These lines are regularly recited in the Sampuran Rehras on a daily basis. Just to side step a little further, I recall that during the dark 80’s in Punjab, many a Kattar-Sikh took physical efforts to ensure that the villagers in Punjab would not watch the televised serial Ramayan to avoid the spreading of ‘Hindoo Baashaâ€, yet the above mentioned dohras were being read aloud regularly at the Darbar Sahib! Anyway continuing from my earlier point, let’s also consider the Chaupai you referenced:- Chaupai “Ma naa Ganesh pritham manaaoo Kishen Bishen kubhoo naa diaaoo Kaan suney Pachaan naa tinso Liv laagee mori pug inso Maha Kaal Rakvaar hamaaro Maha Loh ma kinker Thaaro...†Your translating the terms Maha Kaal and Maha Loh simply into Lord is incorrect. These are terms derived from Tantric lore, Maha Kaal being literally Great/Powerful Death or Great/Powerful Time and in Shakat iconography refers to the more horrid and fearsome forms of Shiv Ji. Maha Loh, is to my knowledge a uniquely Sikh term (compare to Shiva, Chandi, Sarabloh etc) but derived from Shakat terminology again. Literally it would be rendered as Great/Powerful Iron/Weapon, traditionally like Sarabloh, it is a reference to the Devi...the coupling of the terms together is typical of Guru Ji, just as in the Bachiter Natak, when he uses the terms “MahaKaal-Kalika†and in the Sri Sarabloh Prakash he mentions “Bhagwati and Bhagwantâ€. Before expanding upon this, let us also consider the Savaiya again... Savaiya "Pahein gahay jabtay tumray, tab tay kou aankh taray nahi aanyo. Ram Rahim Puran Qoran anek kahay mut ek na maanyo. Simarat Shastra Bed sabai bahu bhed kahai hum ek na jaanyo. Sri Asipaan kripa tumri kar mai na kahyo Sabh toh bakhaanyo." Ram Avtar, Dasam Granth, Guru Gobind Singh. Ever since I have grasped Your feet, I have not thought of anybody else. I do not accept the doctrines enunciated by various faiths, believing in Ram, Rahim, Puranas and Qoran. The Simritis, Shastras and Vedas mention different concepts but I do not subscribe to any of them. Respected Sword-bearer (Sri Asipaan), with Your Grace, all that has been uttered by me has been done under Your command. The present day version of the Rehras in addition to shortening the Benti Chaupai to 25 stanzas omits the Arill and all dohras and chaupais between there and the above mentioned. This rectification occurred during the Singh Sabha reforms of the late 19th and early 20th century. Interestingly, if one looks at closing stanzas which are excluded from the standard version of the Chaupai: kirpa kari ham par jagg mata. granth kara puran subh rata. kilavikh sakal deh ko harta. dusht dokhian ko chhai karta. (26) sri asidhuj jabb bhae diala. puran kara granth tatakala. man banchhat phal pavai soi. dukkh na tisai biapat hoi. (27) The [divine] Mother of the World bestowed her grace on us. Thus the Granth was completed in an auspicious manner. The Lord removed all the bodily afflictions. The Creator destroyed all our wicked enemies. (26) When the Respected bearer of the Sword Banner (Sri Asidhuj) became compassionate: The Granth was completed instantly! He [who receives the divine grace] alone achieves the desired goal (phal, "fruit") of his life; and no pain can affect him in anyway. (27) I personally find the sole reason for the exclusion of these lines to be the reference to the divine "Mother of the World" (Jugg Mata) which clearly has been misunderstood by the Singh Sabhias as a reference to and veneration of the Devi Mata (the goddess Bhavani, Chandi, Durga, Kali or Jugdambay). Whilst the use of the term Mata (and even Jugg Mata) is frequently found in the Sri Guru, as a reference to the feminine aspect of Akal, it is understandable why the Singh Sabhias in their paranoia of Hindoo influences saw fit to even cut Guru Ji’s Bani. The ironic thing is that they chose to exclude all other Dohras that occur in the Rehras maintained in various forms by the Taksalis, Nihangs, Nirmalas, Nanaksar and Thakt Hazur Sahib but keep the Savaiya mentioned above, which on the face of things seems to be discrediting all Semetic and Indic (to generalise traditions into 2 main camps) traditions, literature and ideals, however let’s look at the terms Asidhuj and Asipan. As I have mentioned earlier and discussed elsewhere on the forum, these terms cannot be translated simply as ‘Lord’ or ‘God’, they refer to the bearer of the Sword-Banner and the bearer of the Sword-Arm, respectively. Again, these are tantric terms found in Shakat ideology and also in that of Mahayana Buddhism with graphic paintings and statues of the Asidhuj or Asipan, that is the Devi herself in one of her many manifestations or forms. Now clearly in the style of Gurbani, these terms are used as symbolic language and are not references to the Devi as such, but to the functional qualities of Akal, pointing verily to Akal alone, just as the reference to Jugg Mata at the end of the full Benti Chaupai Sahib does...unfortunately for those who can only see things literally, such foolish actions as to cut the words of Guru Ji to fit their own agendas are undoubtedly going to occur. Forgive any harsh comments and/or incorrect analysis, please kindly offer correction where you feel it justly deserved. Gur Fateh! Niranjana. p.s. I am not suggesting that we should partake in all ceremonies and observances of other traditions or paths, however to display respect for the Jesus, Sants and other Bhagats I do consider fine and correct protocol for a Khalsa Singh, afterall “Eh Tirsra Mazrab Khalsa, Upjio Pradhana!†0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hari Posted December 11, 2003 Report Share Posted December 11, 2003 I love your posts Niranjana.Wholesome, tasty and easy to digest. I'd just like to comment upon the Goddess/Mother/Devi, femenine aspect of Divine. I strongly believe in two main aspects of Divine, God and Goddess.Consciousness and Nature.The reason why Nature is femenine is because She conceives and gives birth.The seed is Consciousness (God, Ishvar, Atma/Paramatma). Vahiguru (Parbrahm) is both God and Goddess aswell as being transcendant to these two main aspects. Vahiguru = :?: Even saying Vahiguru = :?: is futile. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tSingh Posted December 11, 2003 Report Share Posted December 11, 2003 Great post Niranjana. very well put. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 11, 2003 Report Share Posted December 11, 2003 great post niranjana :yo: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niranjana Posted December 16, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 16, 2003 Gur Fateh! Hari, jtsingh and Iron Bangle, thanks you all for the kind words and sentiments. I appreciate your encouragement. Unfortunately, this wasn't so well recieved elsewhere where certain folks seem to think I have not 'stuck to facts' and simply played on 'word association'!!! I'm happy to have critical feedback, however it would be nice to have someone actually 'construct' a counter argument and specify the issues they have with your comments as opposed to blanket statements such as these or simply "I disagree, please keep your posts shorter Niranjana"...oh well! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 16, 2003 Report Share Posted December 16, 2003 "I disagree, please keep your posts shorter Niranjana"...oh well! These are the same people the ones want to read Guru Granth Sahib ji in nutshell. And at the end they screw up themselves by following any joe and harry online and become his/her tail and you will see them using this smiley a lot. ----> :bow: :bow: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niranjana Posted December 16, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 16, 2003 Truth Singh, I like your analysis! Short, Sharp and Sweet... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 27, 2003 Report Share Posted December 27, 2003 Brilliant post Niranjana, I learnt a lot, thanks for sharing this with us. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khalsacrazed Posted December 27, 2003 Report Share Posted December 27, 2003 all i can say is bani guru guru hai bani which bani amrit sarey 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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