Parts of SGGS not meant to follow?

[Dhoor721]

I was talking to one of my friends recently, and he told me that all of the Hindu, Muslim, and non-Sikh writers in SGGS only wrote for motivational purposes--not for us to follow. He told me that their writings are from their religion, and we should not follow their religion. I find this really hard to believe, but I figured it's best if I ask the cyber-sangat. Is it true that writers like Kabeer should only be read to inspire us and not for us to follow?

[vaapaaraa]

to follow and inspire

[Guest]

If Bhagats Bani is only motivational then What Gurus bani is for? If he says it’s to follow then ask him that Gurus bani is not motivational in that condition? Guru Ji made Guru Granth sahib our 11th Guru. It’s not a book. It’s our spiritual Guru. We take Hukumnama when we are in problem. We consult it by taking Hukumnama. Is your friend is saying that when we take Hukumnama and see that it’s from Bhagats just skip by saying it’s only for motivation not to follow?

We repeat in Gurdwara everyday "Sab Sikhen kou Hukum hai, Guru Maniou Granth. Guru Granth ji Maaniou Pragat Gura kee deh, Jou Prabh kou milbo che khoj Shabad mein lei" now do we discriminate about Bhagats Bani?

Check out these videos to understand Gurbani concept in details.

http://www.gursikhijeevan.com/media/video/...alRaagMaala.wmv

http://www.gursikhijeevan.com/media/video/...lRaagMaala2.wmv

[Guest]

A person who distuiguish between guroo maharaj bani and bhagata dii bani havent got the true purpose of the divine message for siri guroo granth sahib maharaj ji. They all same.

"Bani Guru Guru Hai Bani, Vich Bani Amrit Sareh

I beleive even little bit doubt between guroo maharaj di bani and bhagata bani is an insult to guroo maharaj ji.

Thats all i have to say.

Please dont get manipulated by other people. We want sikhs to research... even dont take my words for it..... research if you want... majority of people in the panth will say there is no difference except few ex- sikh teja singh or his followers :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

[BabbarSher]

Dear Dhoor,

The question of not following would only arise if there were differences in beliefs, practices or path of the Gurus and Bhagats.

All of the Baani of SGGS is in complete sync and does not contradict itself. There is no separation of teaching of the Gurus and the Bhagats.

The Bhagats Baani has been included by Guru Maharaj to highlight with examples what the the 'true path' of attaining God is.

However before the Gurus only a handful of people knew what the true path was. The Gurus therefore took upon themselves to tell the masses how to atain God. This is exactly why Guru Nanak Dev Ji and subsequently 9 Gurus were sent by God. Therafter the path was recorded by the Gurus in Guru Granth Sahib so that masses after them could also benefit.

Sikhism is for the masses, it is not for a chosen few.

:-)

I hope this clarifies. Please come with all the questions even though you may feel that there are umpteen. After all thats what this Forum is made for.

[Dhoor721]

Ok, I agree...SGGS definetely does NOT contradict itself; however, I found two shabads from sikhitothemax.com which provide translations that are contradicting:

Shabad #1:

This Shabad is by Guru Nanak Dev Ji in Raag Malaar on Pannaa 1289

First Mehl:

maas maas kar moorakh jhagarrae giaan dhhiaan nehee jaanai ||

The fools argue about flesh and meat, but they know nothing about meditation and spiritual wisdom.

koun maas koun saag kehaavai kis mehi paap samaanae ||

What is called meat, and what is called green vegetables? What leads to sin?

gai(n)addaa maar hom jag keeeae dhaevathiaa kee baanae ||

It was the habit of the gods to kill the rhinoceros, and make a feast of the burnt offering.

maas shhodd bais nak pakarrehi raathee maanas khaanae ||

Those who renounce meat, and hold their noses when sitting near it, devour men at night.

farr kar lokaa(n) no dhikhalaavehi giaan dhhiaan nehee soojhai ||

They practice hypocrisy, and make a show before other people, but they do not understand anything about meditation or spiritual wisdom.

naanak a(n)dhhae sio kiaa keheeai kehai n kehiaa boojhai ||

O Nanak, what can be said to the blind people? They cannot answer, or even understand what is said.

a(n)dhhaa soe j a(n)dhh kamaavai this ridhai s lochan naahee ||

They alone are blind, who act blindly. They have no eyes in their hearts.

maath pithaa kee rakath nipa(n)nae mashhee maas n khaa(n)hee ||

They are produced from the blood of their mothers and fathers, but they do not eat fish or meat.

eisathree purakhai jaa(n) nis maelaa outhhai ma(n)dhh kamaahee ||

But when men and women meet in the night, they come together in the flesh.

maasahu ni(n)mae maasahu ja(n)mae ham maasai kae bhaa(n)ddae ||

In the flesh we are conceived, and in the flesh we are born; we are vessels of flesh.

giaan dhhiaan kashh soojhai naahee chathur kehaavai paa(n)ddae ||

You know nothing of spiritual wisdom and meditation, even though you call yourself clever, O religious scholar.

baahar kaa maas ma(n)dhaa suaamee ghar kaa maas cha(n)gaeraa ||

O master, you believe that flesh on the outside is bad, but the flesh of those in your own home is good.

jeea ja(n)th sabh maasahu hoeae jeee laeiaa vaasaeraa ||

All beings and creatures are flesh; the soul has taken up its home in the flesh.

abhakh bhakhehi bhakh thaj shhoddehi a(n)dhh guroo jin kaeraa ||

They eat the uneatable; they reject and abandon what they could eat. They have a teacher who is blind.

maasahu ni(n)mae maasahu ja(n)mae ham maasai kae bhaa(n)ddae ||

In the flesh we are conceived, and in the flesh we are born; we are vessels of flesh.

giaan dhhiaan kashh soojhai naahee chathur kehaavai paa(n)ddae ||

You know nothing of spiritual wisdom and meditation, even though you call yourself clever, O religious scholar.

maas puraanee maas kathaeba(n)aee chahu jug maas kamaanaa ||

Meat is allowed in the Puraanas, meat is allowed in the Bible and the Koran. Throughout the four ages, meat has been used.

jaj kaaj veeaahi suhaavai outhhai maas samaanaa ||

It is featured in sacred feasts and marriage festivities; meat is used in them.

eisathree purakh nipajehi maasahu paathisaah sulathaanaa(n) ||

Women, men, kings and emperors originate from meat.

jae oue dhisehi narak jaa(n)dhae thaa(n) ounh kaa dhaan n lainaa ||

If you see them going to hell, then do not accept charitable gifts from them.

dhae(n)adhaa narak surag laidhae dhaekhahu eaehu dhhin(g)aanaa ||

The giver goes to hell, while the receiver goes to heaven - look at this injustice.

aap n boojhai lok bujhaaeae paa(n)ddae kharaa siaanaa ||

You do not understand your own self, but you preach to other people. O Pandit, you are very wise indeed.

paa(n)ddae thoo jaanai hee naahee kithhahu maas oupa(n)naa ||

O Pandit, you do not know where meat originated.

thoeiahu a(n)n kamaadh kapaahaa(n) thoeiahu thribhavan ga(n)naa ||

Corn, sugar cane and cotton are produced from water. The three worlds came from water.

thoaa aakhai ho bahu bidhh hashhaa thoai bahuth bikaaraa ||

Water says, ""I am good in many ways."" But water takes many forms.

eaethae ras shhodd hovai sa(n)niaasee naanak kehai vichaaraa ||2||

Forsaking these delicacies, one becomes a true Sannyaasee, a detached hermit. Nanak reflects and speaks. ||2||

#2 Shabad:

This Shabad is by Bhagat Kabeer Ji in Salok Kabeer Jee on Pannaa 1377

kabeer bhaa(n)g maashhulee suraa paan jo jo praanee khaa(n)hi ||

Kabeer, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine

theerathh barath naem keeeae thae sabhai rasaathal jaa(n)hi ||233||

- no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. ||233||

From what I can tell, one shabad allows meat and the other doesn't. As I said, the translations come from sikhitothemax.com. Anyone wanna explain?

NOTE: I DON'T MEAN TO MAKE THIS A MEAT DEBATE--I KNOW THE MODERATORS DON'T WANT THAT. PLEASE JUST HELP ME WITH THE TRANSLATIONS.

To the moderators: If you feel this topic is too inappropriate, you can lock it...just PM me with an answer

[Guest]

First of all in order to understand Gurbani you have to know the history behind Gurbani and what was the time and circumstances under which that particular salok was spoken. So, by reading only english translation you can't understand the right meaning. I'm not a scholar but I'll try my best to clear doubts you have in regards to Gurbani in your mind.

Check out translation of Maas Maas kar moorakh Zagare.

http://www.gurugranthdarpan.com/1289.html

And for Kabeer ji's salok you have to read following article.

http://www.sikh-dharma.org.uk/vegetarianism/meatrehat.htm

Scroll down and read what is written under "Message of the "Meat Prohibiting" Hymns" and you will be clear.

[Mugermach Singh]

All the bhagat's are Sikh, the whole world is Sikh. mu ha ha ha ha ha ha.

ON a serious note.... if you look at some of the banis by the Bhagats, and then bani by our Guru's, some of the lines are very similar, eg, Kabir Ji writing one of dying such a death that you never have to die again (talkin about the reincarnation stuff), Guru Amar Das Ji also has a similar line, i will try to find these.

You cant just read one part of bani and take the core meaning, some are interlinked and you get a deeper understanding by reading more and more. THe more you read it, the more deeper you will go, personally, sikhitothemax, is a ok start, but honestly, it confuses more people then it does help, the tranlatiosn are not that good. The url TRUTH gave is good. i know its 6000 pages of pdf, but if you read only 20 odd A4 pages a day, you will complete it within a year. only 20 pages of A4, you prob read more then that on this forum.

[Nihal_Kaur]

thats a great idea mugermach!!!

[Ideal Singh]

:arrow:

i know its 6000 pages of pdf, but if you read only 20 odd A4 pages a day, you will complete it within a year. only 20 pages of A4, you prob read more then that on this forum.

Very well summed up... 8)

[Guest]

CONCEPT OF THE GURU AND RELEVANCE OF BHAGAT BANI

Gurnam Kaur, Ph.D

Revelation is basic to most religions in one way or another. Sikhism is indubitably a revealed religion. According to the Sikh revelation, man can have direct communication with God through His Naam. He can realise Naam through the Guru. The Guru is the True Master and the perfect one, who himself has realized the Truth. The idea of revelation in Sikhism is thus, unique. The revelation is manifest through Bani, the Scripture. The idea of incarnation of God, or God taking birth as a living being has been rejected categorically. The physiculity of the Divine is rejected. In its place the knowledge revealed in the Bani is stated to be God given. We find many references to it in Sri Guru Granth Sahib[1]. The Guru had the direct experience of the Truth and expressed it in his own language. Sri Guru Granth Sahib is the record of the Truth received by the Guru from communication with God. According to the Gurus, God Himself is the source of the Bani,[2] the primal Word.

Only the Message in Bani is eternal because of which the status of Guru has been bestowed on the Bani. The importance of the Word has been stressed by Guru Nanak, Guru Angad and Guru Amar Das. Guru Ram Das has given the status of Guru to Bani in clear terms. According to him there is no difference between the Guru and his Bani. The Gurus' Bani is an embodiment of the Guru and the Guru in revelation (Bani). In revelation is contained the Nectar which is the sustainer of a spiritual life. The Guru utters the revelation and the seeker must accept it. He emancipates the seeker by manifesting himself in the Bani[3]. It is the unique feature of Sikhism that the Guru is accepted as perfect and permanent in the form of Bani, not in his corporeal form because corporeal form is ephemeral, while his Bani is eternal. Even as the Fourth Guru gave this status to bani, Guru Gobind Singh formally bestowed the status of Guru on Sri Guru Granth Sahib., thus confirming the institution of the Sikh revelation. He ordained the Sik

hs to accept Guru Granth Sahib as the Guru after him and seek the guidance from the Holy book. The revelation in Sikhism operates in an ascending spiritual order. The receiver of the revelation rises spiritually to receive it and revelation (Bani) has the capacity to bestow angelic virtues on humans. Its promise to transform humans into spiritual beings is a distinctive feature of the Sikh revelation.

According to Sri Guru Granth Sahib the divine manifestation is in the form of enlightenment ("joti")[4] and not in the form of birth as a human being. It is the realization of the Divine light ("Joti") the Word ("Shabad") and the Gurmat methodology ("Jugati") which is to provide the status of the perfect preceptor (Puran-Gur). The way through which this Divine Light is to be realized is the Guru oriented way, the Gurmat way, ("Gurmukh gaadi raah chalaaya"[5]). Owing to this concept of Light (joti) and the Word (shabad) all the Gurus treated themselves as the spirit of Nanak. So, according to Sri Guru granth Sahib, the Divine manifestation is in the form of Bani, which is a continual process from Guru Nanak to Guru Gobind Singh. Guru Nanak says, in Asa di Var, that he is a sacrifice to his Guru who makes angels out of men. According to Sikh revelation, Joti, the spiritual spark, is common in every physical body, the difference lies in Jugati. Jugati is the Gurmat way in Sikhism. This is not so in the case of

Bhagats.

In the absence of jugati they were scattered and isolated in spiritual longings. Guru Nanak established the perspective and the term Jugati is used for that, meaning that the physicality of Bhagats is mines while they are being included in Sri Guru Granth Sahib.

The composition of the Bhagats are available outside of Sri Guru Granth Sahib also. Only selected portions of their compositions are included in Sri Guru Granth Sahib. We know in Sikhism a distinction has been made between true revelation and a false one, i.e. Kachi and Sachi Bani. The first reference to this effect is made by the Third Guru, in Sri Guru Granth Sahib. According to him only that revelation is true the source of which is God Himself. And this criterion is used strictly for the selection of the Bhagat Bani. Only such portion of the Bhagat Bani has been accorded the status of Guru as has been incorported in Sri Guru Granth Sahib, not their whole compositions. In achieved completeness ("Puranata") when it was included in the Holy scripture by the Guru. It received the touch of the Guru, just as a common tree that grows near the sandalwood tree, becomes fragrant like sandlewood. Similarly the Bhagat Bani attained the Guru status when it was accepted by the Guru and juxtaposed in every Raga.

Once incorporated, there was no difference in any composition being Shabad or Bani as included in Sri Guru Granth Sahib. All compositions are treated as equal, recited, sung and meditated upon with equal devotion.

In order, however, to establish the true perspective, we must keep in mind the concepts of "Joti" and "Jugati". On the basis of the concepts, only the ten Gurus could be called Nanak; none else not even the Bhagats. So when the other contributers are referred to in Sri Guru Granth Sahib, the word Bhagat Bani and their respective names are mentioned. In every Raga, their compositions come after the Bani of the Gurus. So in the physical form their status is clear as Bhagats and their Bani attained the status of the Guru.

In consequence, the question of elevating any Bhagats as the Guru of Guru Nanak does not arise. It becomes irrelevat when we consider the concepts of "Joti" and "Jugati", as mentioned above. The "Joti" is same in Gurus and the Bhagats because same Light resides in every body but not the "Jugat". In combination with this concept is given another theory of Guru Nanak, viz that of "Shabad Guru". God alone is Guru Nanak's teacher and Guru, in the form of Shabad.

According to Sikh revelation, individual physical existence has no importance, only the Shabad is important which is revealed through that individual. The examples from Sikh revelation and tradition are before us. When Guru Nanak bestowed the Guruship on Bhai Lehna, and named him Guru Angad, he bowed to and saluted the Guru, so ordained. Thus the founding Prophet established the supremacy of "Joti" and "Jugat" during his life-time. Bhagat Bani is Shabad Guru in totality of Sri Guru Granth Sahib, not individually or independently.

[1] Sri Guru Granth Sahib M-5.p.963

"houn apahu bol na jan-da, main kahiya sabhu humkaou jio"

[2] Sri Guru Granth Sahib M-1.p.7

[3] Ibid. M-4, p.982

[4] Ibid,(Ramkali ki Var Raya Balwand tatha Satai Dum) p.966

[5] Varan Bhai Gurdas(Var 40, Stanza 11)