Dusht Daman!?

[Guest]

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa

Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

I'm very confused. I read an article in which the author says that the title of 'Dusht Daman' is wrong for Guru Gobind Singh Ji, because this was a superhuman created from the lion's skin mat on which a Brahim hermit was meditating. Also, the concept of Hemkunt as being the place of Guru Ji's Bhagti in His previous life is wrong, as Guru Ji would never meditate as an 'ascetic' when this is strongly condemned in Sikhism. He said the story in the Bachitar Natak refers to Raja Pandu's story as a mythological and metaphorical account, and Guru Ji is describing the place 'Sapat Spring' and using it as a metaphor to describe the time He spent in His Mother's womb, in meditation.

Are we to take the literal meaning of this Bani? I would appreciate your comments to clear my confusion.

Gurfateh

[Nek]

i think we should forget all these minor stories and cooked up fables n concentrate on the sggs. when we ourselves become supermen/women (divine) we shall know the truth..

what ya say...

[Guest]

I cant solve his doubt, but all i can see all the mahapursh accept hemkunt event (Dusht Daman) story to be true and real.

It aint no metaphorical account. Kaur Ji take words of mahapursh. If they can beleive in existence of dust daman (previous incarnation of guroo maharaj ji) then why cant we ??? . First decide with your mind, who you would be comfortable to follow an scholar or saint or saint + scholar ??

[Hari]

i think we should forget all these minor stories and cooked up fables n concentrate on the sggs. when we ourselves become supermen/women (divine) we shall know the truth..

what ya say...

I say: Stop being so narrow-minded.

[Guest]

Neo Ji, Nek Ji, I understand your sentiments. However, we need to question in order to understand. This is Gurbani.

Why would Guru Ji meditate as an ascetic, when ascetism is described in Sikhism as futile?

Hari, Shasterkovich? Anyone have any views on this?!

[Guest]

Did Guru ji say somewhere that we should believe in Dusht Daman? Can we see the same article if it's available somewhere online?

[Guest]

There are first five verses in Chapter 6 of Bichitar Natak, to be discussed below, which are of metaphorical and symbolic nature, and cannot be translated casually and literally. In these five verses, Guru Gobind Singh Jee has referred to the lengthy tale of King Pandu’s last part of life, conveying symbolically his birth process, and he took birth in Patna City, on December 18, 1661 in just five verses. Every one born of a woman. spends about eight to nine months as his foetal life in mother’s womb just like an ascetic in deep meditations, in upside down posture, head downward and legs clung to the belly upward. The Guru states that he was in deep meditations in love of the Divine, when he saw the light of the day in Patna City.

Sanyasis and other ascetics go to jungles, and find a suitable place there for their abode and meditations. Generally they find such a place, which should be in the jungle, vegetation bearing produce to live on, and also near some source of water supply for their daily use to sustain themselves; generally we find ascetic abodes near a stream or river. There they build a hut to live in. The Yogis on the other hand go to high mountaneous areas, there they search for a suitable cave to live in, and the place should be near some water spring, to meet with their water needs. They also search for such places where they find the jungle produce to satisfy their hunger. Both ascetics and Yogis select their respective places, which are near to some inhabitation – they expect that the neighbouring inhabitation will serve them with meals, or they would visit the inhabitations and beg for their meals.

Hem Kunt Mountain is situated North of Hardwar – Rikhikesh in Utar Pradesh State at a height of more than 14,000 feet above sea level. The area remains snow bound for more than eight months in a year. Nothing grows there and no one ever lived there. The habitations are found 30 to 40 miles, down these hills. Raja Pandu did not meditate on God there, but lived in the jungle and had sexual union (yog) with his wife, which the Guru referred. Raja Pandu was not a saint, who ever meditated on God in these mountaneous area. The Guru metaphorically described his foetal life in his mother’s womb, which is misinterpreted. Mahabhartta largely is a classical world famous book of Mythology, description of which is for the scholars to unfold in plain words. All the World Cultures are based on Mythological stories, Mahabhartta is one of such books depicting Indian Culture.

It is a matter of great regret and humiliation to write that for past about 300 years we have not produced a single scholar to have thought deeply over the metaphors and the similes the Guru gave in just five verses, to have arrived at the correct conclusion. One wonders that Kala Afghana, Gurtej Singh and other IOSS zealots how shamelessly and dare devilishly not realizing their own insignificance, they not only challenge the corerectness of the text, but also mock and ridicule at every bit of the Divine Writings? Let us examine the text of the Divine Writings, with due reverence and dispassionately.

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Facts about Guru Gobind Singh’s Previous Life as given by the Guru in his composition‘Bichitar Natak’

It is generally believed that Guru Gobind Singh, in life immediately preceding his birth at Patna (December 18, 1661) was leading the life of an ascetic, doing penance and meditation at the Hem Hunt Mountain. It was while the Guru was performing these penance that God summoned him to His presence and told him, to take birth and become the successor Guru to Guru Tegh Bahadur. The interpretation of the Guru’s writings , that in his previous life he was leading life of an ascetic, is not correct. Below we give excerpts from the Guru’s writings as in ‘Bichitar Natak’ (A Wonderful Drama):

“I shall now tell my own story. How God sent me into the world, while I was doing penance. There is mountain called ‘Hem Kunt’ (a cave surrounded by ice), which has seven conspicuous peaks in the area of the garden of Sapat Sring. It was here that king Pandu practiced jog (union). There I too performed my austerities and remembered God. As a result of my remembrance of God, I attained complete union with Him. My father and mother also, worshipped God and strove hard to remember Him. The Great Guru (God) was so pleased with their complete devotion to Him, that He asked me, to take birth in this Kal Yuga (Age of sin). Being fully absorbed in my love of God, I did not desire to come to this world. God, not accepting my representations for not coming to the world, made me understand its necessity. Saying: ‘I have cherished you as My Son and am sending you in the world to extend My Religion. Go and spread My Religion there. Restrain the people from their senseless acts’. I stood up, folded my hands, bowed my head and replied, “Your Religion will prevail in all the world, when it has Your support.â€

Guru Gobind Singh’s writings are full of similes and symbolism. The paragraph od the Guru’s writings mentioned above cannot be literally translated. There are two statements made by the Guru in the above mentioned composition. Firstly that he was a recluse or hermit doing penance at a place where King Pandu practiced jog (union). Secondly, commanded by God, he took birth in this Age of Sin (Kali Yuga).

As we have seen from the lives of Guru Nanak Dev and the succeeding Gurus, the Sikh Teachings are averse to such type asceticism. The human mind is cultivated to its maturity by association with saintly society and by confronting evil situations. By associating with evil, one becomes evil minded. Those who flee from their hoomes to live in forests or climb high mountains to live in isolated caves, gain nothing and become perverted. Guru Gobind singh teaches us -

“O man, practice asceticism in this way. Consider your house as a forest, and remain an anchorite at heart. Make continence your matted hair, union with God your ablutions. Make your religious duties as the growth of your nails and Divine Knowledge your spiritual guide. Admonish your heart and apply God’s Name as ashes to your body. Eat little, sleep little, love mercy and forbearance. Always practice mildness and patience, then you may be freed from ‘Maya’ (Illusion) and the effect of Matter of Three Qualities. In this way you may behold the Reality in this world and obtain to the Supreme Beingâ€.

The belief that Guru Gobind Singh in his previous life was leading a life of an ascetic, doing penance at Hem Kunt Mountain is based on a faulty interpretation of the above mentioned Guru’s writings. The Guru states that he did penance and meditate in the garden of Sapat Sring, where King Pandu also was engaged in yogic meditation. If we are to interpret this verse correctly, we will have to study the Hindu epic known as the ‘Mahabhartta.’

The ‘Mahabhartta’ is an epic poem, which gives in detail, the political, social and religious life of the antiquities of the Hindu world. History’s men of great culture have displayed their creative nature by their capacity to speculate and imagine. Guru Gobind Singh’s works exist in this sphere. An account of king Pandu’s life is given in the ‘Sambhava Purva’ of the Mahabhartta. Vyasa, the celebrated author of the Vedas, is also the author of this great epic. He was the son of the great sage Parasara and was connected with the families of Kaurvas and Pandvas.

King Santanu is said to have married the goddess Ganga. She gave birth to seven children and every time, she took the child and cast it into the river Ganga. The king could not raise any objection to her doing this, as he had pledged to her, before their marriage, that he would never stand in her way. When her eighth child was born and she was about to throw it into the river, the king could not bear it any longer and told her not to murder her innocent children. This time she did not kill the child but disappeared herself. The child became known as Bhishma. Years went by until one day, as the king was wandering on the banks of river Yamuna, he saw a lovely maiden and wanted to marry her, She was the river Yamuna, in the form of fisher-woman. Her father, a fisher-man, laid down the condition that the king could only marry her if any child of this marriage succeeded as the king. The king could not fulfill this condition, as he already had a son, Bhishma. However, then Bishma observed his father’s dejection, he went to see the fisher-man and pledged to him that he would never become king and would never marry, so that now there would be no question of any one else succeeding the king save any off-spring of the fisher-man’s daughter. In this way, Yamuna (Satyavati), married king Santanu. Before her marriage to the king, Satyavati, in an earlier union with Rishi Parasara had had a son named Vyasa, the composer of the epic Mahabharta. She now bore king Santanu a son named Vichitravirya, who ascended the throne of his father at his death. Vichitravirya in turn married the two daughters of king of Kasi, who were named Amvika and Amvalika. After seven years of married life, king Vichitravirya died, leaving his two queens childless. Satyavati, now begged her step son, Bhishma to marry her two daughters-in-law and raise children for his dead step brother. But Bhishma could not agree to the proposal on account of his vow of celebacy. Satyavati then thought of her son Vyasa and asked him to meet the two widowed queens, in order to continue the line of his deceased step brother. Soon after a monthly period of Princess Amvalika was over, Satyavati purified her with baths, led her to her inner apartments, seated her on a luxurious bed and said: “Your husband had an elder brother. It is he who to-night will enter your womb. Do not go to sleep but wait for him.†Amvika thought that she would be visited by Bhishma, but on seeing Vyasa, the ugliest of men, closed her eyes in fear. He embraced her, but not once during the embracing did she open her eyes and look at him. Amvika gave birth to a blind son, who became known as Dhritarashtra.

Similarly, Vyasa visited the second widowed queen Amvalika. When Vyasa came to her bed room, she turned pale with fear. She gave birth to a son named Pandu. - The Pale. Satyavati then told Amvika to have another child by Vyasa but she refused. She then sent a maid servant in her place. When Vyasa went into the room, the maid showed no fear. She pleased Vyasa in all respects. She was blessed in every way and bore a most intelligent son, named Vidura. The story now continues round these three brothers, Dhritarashtra, Pandu, Vidura and their descendents.

Dhritarashtra was married to Gandhari, who bore to him one hundred sons, the oldest was Daryodhana - Hard to Conquer (the evil in human nature).

Pandu became the king and married Kunti. Kunti was daughter of King Sura, who was Yadava by caste. Kunti was also known as Pritha, pleased Rishi Durvasa, who gave her a magical prescription “Mantraâ€. Through this Mantra she could summon whatever god she wished to give her sons. The Rishi had also fore-knowledge of her future husband, Pandu’s immature death. Kunti while she was still a virgin, out of a curiosity, to test the validity of the Mantra invoked “Arka Vivswatâ€, the sun god, who at once appeared before her. She became totally confused but the sun god, not leaving her, embraced her. The union gave birth to a son named Karna, from one of her ears. Her marriage to king Pandu took place later. In due course, king Pandu married a second wife, named Madri, the daughter of king Madra.

Vidura married the daughter of king Devaha, born of a Sudra (low caste) wife of the king. Vidura himself was also born of a Sudra mother.

One day, King Pandu went to jungle for hunting. He saw a huge stag coupling with a doe. The king discharged five arrows from his bow and mortally wounded both the deer. As they fell to the ground, the stag wept bitterly like a man. Actually the stag was not a deer but the son of a great Rishi, who had been enjoying his wife in the form of a deer. He told Pandu that he was a wicked man. Pandu replied, “When kings go out to hunt deer, they kill them as do their enemies, when chasing them. Even Rishis hunt deer and sacrifice them to their gods. Why do you reproach me?†The stag then replied, “Virtuous kings do not attack their enemies, when they are unprepared, but first declare war. I do not blame you for killing deer, but to kill any creature, in the act of copulation is a great sin. When male and female join together, it is agreeable to every creature; it is ordained by gods, and it is good for all. You should have waited until the act was completed. For this sin I curse you. When you join your wives, you will be deemed killed along with your wife. As you have brought grief to me, while I was enjoying happiness, so shall the same happen to you.†(This is the symbolic meaning of sexual intercourse, i.e. to be killed). So saying the deer died.

King Pandu was very much shocked and dejected. He told his wives to go to his people and tell them that he would become an ascetic, even though they begged to stay with him. Pandu then became an ascetic and disciple of the Sidhas, who resided in the forests. The Sidhas and Rishis of the forests then arranged to go on a mountaneous pilgrimage. Pandu wanted to accompany them with his wives but the Rishis said: “On our way are heights and regions of perpetual snow, where neither animals, birds or even trees can live; only the winds and Sidhas are there, so how can your princesses exist there?†As his wives could not copulate with him, Pandu replied, “I have no sons, nor am I in a position to create them. I owe a debt to my ancestors. I wish to know if my wives can have children by another man?†The Rishis gave the assent and foretold the birth of wonderful children for him, from other men. Kunti remembering her Mantra invoked the god of justice. Through him she had a son named Yudhishtra. After some time, Kunti invoked the god of wind and through him had a son named Bhima. Later again she invoked Indira and gave birth to a son named Arjuna.

Madri, the second wife of king Pandu now expressed her desire to bear children. Pandu asked Kunti to help Madri in this respect. Kunti told Madri to think of the gods with whom she wanted to have children and she would arrange it. Madri thought of the twin Aswins. They were invoked by Kunti and they came to Madri. By then she had twin sons, Nakula and Sahadeva. In this way, five sons (Pandu Brothers) were born to king Pandu.

When Pandu actually saw his five handsome sons growing up in the forest of the slopes of the mountain, he felt his sexual power returning. One day, accompanied by Madri, he went out to wander in the woods of the garden of Sapat Sringa. It was spring time, the season that causes unrest in all creatures. Flowers bloomed everywhere filling the woods with their gentle perfume, all the pools were full of lotus blossoms. King Pandu in the midst of all this, sat down to rest with a youthful mortal. His desire for her flared, like a forest fire. Unable to restrain himself, he put his arms around her, while she, knowing that his death would result , endeavored to restrain him. Intoxicated with desire and as if wishing to end his life, he united himself with her. No sooner was this done then life left him, in accordance with the Rishi’s curse. When the body of king Pandu was cremeated, Madri jumped into the fire to be with him.

The word “jog†means union. What type of yog did king Pandu have? It was a sexual union with his wife - a union in the womb of his wife. During the gestation period, the baby grows in the womb, where prior to his existence its father had had the union.

Guru Gobind Singh in his composition ‘Bichitar Natak’ refers to King Pandu’s place of union (at Sapat Sringa) and states that there (in his mother’s womb) he had his union with God in the company of his Holy Mother.

It will be observed that in the above account the womb has been described as “a placeâ€, where on its heights, are regions of perpetual snow, where neither animals and birds nor even trees can live; only the winds, the Sidhas and the great Rishis are there.†The Guru also described it as the “Hem Kunt Mountain†(A cave, in a snow covered Mountain). Dr Nandor in his book ‘New Approaches to Dream Interpretation’ (page 116) has given the following dream in respect of “The Mountain of Birthâ€.

“I talk to a friend in a boastful way of former feats. ‘Do you see that mountain there? We used to climb to its top and hike around up there, where the clouds are.’ Then we coasted down on a sleigh and had difficulties, because the snow did not cover the road completely. There were stretches of road bare of snow. Suddenly a great, lumbering grizzly bear came from the left towards me. I was very frightened, as I felt I could not pass it with the sleigh owing to the poor snow conditions. I start over the slope to my left, willing to risk my limbs in a steep ride that could land me in a gully. Anything to get away from the bear. I did not have enough time to move in either direction, I ended in a tree.

Climbing to the top of a mountain and enjoying his stay high up in the clouds†was a recurrent dream with this patient. He did not realize that the the dream was a fantasy of returning into the uterus (womb). The mountain top in a sea of clouds is an island. An island like a mountain submerged in the sea. An island, is a universal symbool of an unborn child, in its amniotic fluid. The foetus is a living island. The dreamer’s boast of former feats (not based on actual experience), is his way of basking in the glory of his past, in the memory of parental Bliss. The sleigh ride down hill, is a dynamic representation of the journey down the uterine canal, the danger of the fall in birth being represented by the gully, its difficulties by insufficient snow on the ground and its terror by the bear. The snow, because of his coldness, is often used in dreams for discomfort or fear. Its insufficiency over part of the road, is a cumulative emphasis on the danger of descent.â€

It is abundantly clear from the above account that Guru Gobind Singh, in his composition, gave a beautiful description of his foetal life, in his mother’s womb. All human beings have to do penance and live an isolated life in their mother’s womb. A baby in the womb, float head down, knees pulled upwards, just as ascetics do.

The Guru in his composition states that he attained complete union with God and that God told him, to take birth in this Kal Yuga (Age of Sin). This clearly means that the Guru was not physically in existence in this world in Kal Yuga, and that his birth at Patna, was his first, in the Kal Yuga. Hindu sacred books divide Time into Four Yugas, each one of thousands of years. Kal Yuga is the Fourth and the Last Yuga.

Hem Kunt Mountain is situated North of Hardwar – Rikhikesh in Utar Pradesh State at a height of more than 14,000 feet above sea level. The area remains snow bound for more than eight months in a year. Nothing grows there and no one ever lived there. Raja Pandu did not meditate on God there, but lived in the jungle and had sexual union (yog) with his wife, which the Guru referred. Raja Pandu was not a saint, who meditated on God in these mountaneous area. The Guru metaphorically described his foetal life in his mother’s womb, which is misinterpreted. Mahabharta largely is a classical world famous book of Mythology, description of which is for the scholars to unfold in plain words. All the World Cultures are based on Mythological stories, Mahabhartta is one of such books depicting Indian Culture.

It is rather strange that Sikhs built a shrine in the memory of Guru Gobind Singh’s alleged previous life as an ascetic meditating in the mountaneous region north of Hardwar and Rikhikesh! The prevalent mis-interpretation of the Guru’s myth in Bichittar Natak, is not only means lack of lack of our scholarship, but also in haste total nullification of the Truth as preached by the Guru himself. We do not yet understand that the myths cannot be literally interpreted.

[Niranjana]

Gur Fateh!

I recall writing about this topic under another thread on the forum (can't seem to locate it right now), however this is something worth considering and Bibi Saihajleen Kaur is right to bring this up in the manner she has.

The article you have quoted I believe is written by Dalip Singh and Amandeep Singh Munde. Whilst I do not personally ascribe to all of their views, I do admire their work in bringing out this information and challenging the likes of Kala Afghana and head on (whilst our superb leaders in the SGPC simply shut everyone up by banning discussion on the Dasam Granth...my word its been 3-4 years since that time, surely the great 'professors' that exist in the SGPC can provide a final opinion on this and do something worth while!!!)

Anyhow, as per Dhust Daman, NEO is correct to an extent that this account has been used by Mahapursh for years, however it does warrant further investigation. The full text is Bachittar Naatak, and this should be considered first, "Naatak" -i.e. a drama or play, hence these verses are clearly not intended to be taken in a totally literal fashion. As per Dhust Daman, many modern day anti-Dasam Granth Sikh scholars argue that this is a Hindoo parody, however let us consider that Dhust Daman does not exist in any supposed ‘Hindoo’ text, although I am informed that Dhust Daman does appear in the Sarabloh Parkaash (those who have access to this Granth, please could you expand). Some oral accounts when dictate that the Sarabloh Parkaash includes bani from when Maharaj was Rishi Dhust Daman...

Other accounts indicate that the Dhust Daman account is a scene from another sphere or realm other than the world we see, i.e. the Hemkunt Sahib as we know it is not the actual location of this event, which certainly coincides to an extent with the views expressed by Dalip Singh. This too is an interesting notion, when we consider that Guru Gobind Singh never actually died and the various stories and accounts predicting his return...

Dynamnic Banda should able to provide yet another tangent on this account as to Dhust Daman being a Tantrik Aghori Baba (which is an area worth investigating given the many references to Tantrik symbology in the Dasam Granth).

Finally, Nek, this attitude you display of disregarding everything except the Adi Guru Granth is a fine example of what is happening to Sikhs today -anything in our lineage, heritage or otherwise that doesn't comply with the 'Sikhi made Simple' ideals propagated over the past 100 years doesn't deserve consideration...rather than inform you about the merits of looking into 'everything', let me just say, that by ignoring issues such as the Dasam Granth (which the SGPC have tried to ensure all Sikhs remain clueless about through their ban on discussion) gives the likes of the RSS and the host of others to manipulate these works and in turn promote their own anti-Sikh agendas, meanwhile the Sikhs are clueless about their own heritage...this I hope should motivate you to at least consider such topics given that conspiracy theories of movements, government-sponsored groups and Hindutva is increasingly the top of the list for the majority of modern day Sikhs...

Humbly,

Niranjana

[HeyDudesWassup]

Alot of Sikhs still enjoy meditatin in quiet places, can you show me where guru Ji says it is futile?

Neo Ji, Nek Ji, I understand your sentiments. However, we need to question in order to understand. This is Gurbani.

Why would Guru Ji meditate as an ascetic, when ascetism is described in Sikhism as futile?

Hari, Shasterkovich? Anyone have any views on this?!

[Guest]

I'm not saying meditation is futile, in loud or quiet places, I'm talking about asceticism. Read my post again. The dictionary meaning of 'asceticism' is: 1 : practising strict self-denial as a measure of personal and especially spiritual discipline. 2 : austere in appearance, manner, or attitude.

Furthermore, Guru Ji says:

Repetition of mantras, austerities, set way of living, And other deeds and actions, Leave us destitute even before out journey ends; You shall not get even half a copper for your fasts, And special programme of life. These things, O brother, will not help. For, the requirements of that path are different.

(Guru V, Gauri Raga)

Some go to the jungle and sit in silence; Some overcome chill and frost and suffer cold water. Some smear their bodies with ashes and do not wash the dirt; Some keep matted hair and appear harsh and frightful; They all put their family to disgrace. Some wander day and night naked and do not sleep; Some burn the parts of their body in fire and disfigure themselves; The body is like ashes without the Nam of the Lord; What do they say while weeping? Those who serve the true Guru get respect in the presence of the Lord.

(Guru I, Malhar Raga)

The second quotation negates the theory that Guru Ji would have meditated like a ascetic, naked with matted hair, when this is deemed as 'disgraceful' according to the quote.

Thanks Niranjana, I agree with you, we need to discuss less 'politically correct' issues, not sweep them under the carpet like the SGPC.

Gurfateh

[Guest]

Ok! Make sure we don't let this thread become another SGPC evalulation thread instead try to discuss the topic.

[Guest]

You're right Ji, apologies.

[Guest]

"Ret Akk Ahaar Kar, Rorhaan Kee Gur Karee Vichaayee.

Bhaaree Karee Tapassiya, Vade Bhaag Har Siyon Ban Aayee". (Bhaayee Sahib Gurdaas Jee, discribing Guru Naanak Dev Jee).

"Taih Ham Adhik Tapassiya Saadhee". (Sri 'Apuni Katha', Sri Dasam Granth Sahib).

What is the difference there?

Can these lines from 'Apuni Katha' (Bachitra Naatak) not be translated casually and literally?: -

"Main apna sut tohe nivaaja.

Panth prachur karbe ko saaja".

Though, he did not want to come into this world: -

"Chit na bhyo hamro aavan kah.

Chubhee rahee shrut Prabh charanan mah".

But, he was ordered by the God. The God Himself ordered him that: -

"Dusht Dokheeyan Pakar Pachhaaro".

"Pachhaaro" was the motive of his birth (Bhav). "Pachhaaro" is equal to "Daman".

When he came into this world, he did not forget why he was sent. That is why he continued to pray: -

"Hamre Dusht Sabhai Tum Ghaavoh".

He did what he was sent for. He did 'Daman' all the 'Dushts', thus, he was called the "Dusht Daman".

-Amrit Pal Singh 'Amrit'

[Guest]

to be an astetic and still meditate on god would still be fine wouldnt it?...

obviously if you sit in silence and thats it, you wont realise god, if you meditated upon god even in the jungles then i dont see a difference to doing it at home

jin prem kio - tin hi prabh paiyo

[Guest]

Ab main apni katha bakhaano.

Tap saadhat jeh bidh mohe aano.

Hemkunt parbat hai jahaan.

Sapt shring shobhit hai tahaan.

There is mountain called 'Hem Kunt' (a cave surrounded by ice), which has seven conspicuous peaks in the area of the garden of Sapat Sring.

Where has the word 'cave' been used in these lines? Where has the word 'garden' been used in these lines?

The word 'Hem' means 'ice' (Hindi 'him'). 'Kunt' means 'tank' or 'pit' (Hindi 'Kund'). So, 'Hemkunt means 'the tank of ice'. The word 'cave' or its synonymous has not been used here in these lines. So, we cannot translate 'Hemkunt' as 'a cave surrounded by ice'.

The word 'Parbat' is clearly used for 'mountains'. There are 'Sapt shring', the seven peaks. And also told that: -

"Sapt shring taih naam kahaava".

It clearly says that those 'Sapt shring' are named as 'Sapt shring', means those seven peaks are known as 'Sapt shring'. The 'Sapt shring' is a proper noun.

"Pand raaj taih jog kamaava".

The word 'Yog' cannot be used in other meaning. The definition of 'Yog' is clearly given in 'Pantanjalee Yog sootra': - 'YogaashChitVriteeNirodhah'. And the good explanation of 'ChitVritees' is also given. (See the first chapter of 'Yog Sootra').

The king 'Paandu' 'kamaava' (earned or gained) 'Yog' there. Where? In 'Sapt shring'. The 'Sapt shring' is the same place, "Sapt shring taih naam kahaava" (which is called as 'Sapt shring', i.e. proper name). In the same place, "Taih ham adhik tappassya saadhee" (where I did too much 'tap').

The word 'Yog' is a sacred word. Please do not compare it with 'Niyog'.

It is clearly said: -

"Taat maat mur Alakh araadha.

Baho bidh Jog saadhna saadha".

It is clear that these 'Yog' was 'Araadhna' of 'Alakh', means this 'Yog' was the 'worship of the God'. That was what the king 'Paandu' did at 'Sapt shring'.

If someone wants to use the word 'Yog' in dirty meanings, he should find the name of Paandu's wife in these lines. Without her wife, how could he get 'union'?

The man, who is united with the God, did not want to take birth: -

"Chit na bhyo hamro aavan kah.

Chubhee rahee shrut Prabh charanan mah".

Still, Guru jee is not there in the holy womb the mother. If someone is already there in a womb, then what is the need to say him to take birth? He is there because he has to take birth.

The God asked Guru Jee to take birth, when Guru Jee was still somewhere in 'Sapt shring'.

"Tap saadhat Prabh Mohe Bulaayo".

The God called for him, when he (Guru Jee) was doing 'Tap'. The God sent him into this world: -

"Im kah kai ehlok pathhaayo". (Sent me to this world saying this).

A child in its mother's womb is already there in this world, but when the God asked Guru Jee to take birth, the Guru Jee was not there in this world. It clears that all this happened in another kind of world. It is the 'mental world'. The 'scholars' have not the passports to enter in this 'mental world'. (For a 'Saadhak', it takes only a second to reach there through meditation. The residents of the 'mental world' can go everywhere in the 'physical world'. They can live in a heavy snow. They do not eat physical food, so there is no need for them to live near any human population).

It is abundantly clear from the above account that Guru Gobind Singh, in his composition, gave a beautiful description of his foetal life, in his mother's womb.

Guru Jee told that he came into this world in 'Tribeni' (Allahabaad): -

"Mur pit Poorab Keeyas piyaana.

Bhaant Bhaant ke teerath nhaana.

Jab hee jaat 'Tribeni' bhye.

Pun daan din karat bitaye.

TAHEE prakaas hamaara bhayo.

(There I manifest myself as light, means my mother conceived me).

Next line, describes where Guru Jee took birth: -

"Patna sahar bikhai bav layo". (I took 'bav' in the city of Patna).

One can clearly see that the dialogue between Guru Jee and the God took place before the mother of Guru Jee conceived him. So, Guru Jee had the dialogue before he entered the womb or this physical world. Guru Jee did 'Tap' even before this dialogue. So, it is wrong to say that 'Hemkunt' is the womb.

This discription has been given in the sixth chapter of 'Apuni Katha'. The word 'Hemkunt' has been used in the first stanza. The second stanza has the name of King Paandu. In the second and third stanza, we find the description of 'Tap' by Guru jee and his mother and father. The fourth stanza tells that the God was pleased with the mother and the father. The fifth stanza tells that Guru Jee's heart never wished to come into this world. There is the dialogue of the God from stanza 6 to 29. In 30th stanza, Guru Jee stood before the God with folded hands and said that the 'Panth' would spread in the world, if the God would help. From stanza 31 to stanza 64, Guru Jee tells what were his religious believes, and why he took birth into this world.

In the first stanza of the seventh chapter, it is told that Guru Jee's father moved towards East and took bath on various pilgrimage centers. When he reached 'Triveni', he spent days offering charities. In the second stanza, Guru Jee said that there he was manifested. He took birth in Patna. He was brought to 'Madra Des' (Punjab). Varuous kinds of maids affectionately brought him up.

Guru Jee has not used the word 'Dusht Daman' for himself. The discription of 'Dusht Daman' is given in the 13th Saakhee of 'Sau Saakhee', which is not proved by Sri Dasam Granth Sahib.

Regards,

-'Amrit'

[vaapaaraa]

It is clear that Hemkunt Sahib is not a mythology, and it is the place where Guru Gobind Singh Ji did tap.

The first person who discovered Hemkunt Sahib had doubts about if he had discovered the right place. He was approached by an Old man with long white beard and had a radiant face. He said, " Yes this is the place".

The discoverer became happy and looked around the place once again, when he turned back to ask the old man more questions, the old man had disappeared.

[Gauge]

jin prem kio - tin hi prabh paiyo

My Lord! Everyone of you is so privileged! You have been gifted the most priceless gift! Have I found the Sadh Sangat? How CLEAR you all are! Both sides. Have I found the Jewel of Humanity?

Gauge

[Guest khalsa]

Dear all Guruji the par brahm himself said us to concentrate on true values of Sikhism I.e. living a life of a khalsa and concentrate on EKOnkaar then we people focus on who was dusht daman.

We should only remember that guru gobind singh ji was parbrahm himself and told us to do naam simran "ek onkar satnam" because no story is  as true as the eternal God given as "EKONKAR".

WAHEGURU SATGURU.

[amandeepsingh]

Dusht daman is fack story created by Hindu mitheasik because they are mix up the Sikh religion in Hindu religion

[ipledgeblue]

On 19/08/2017 at 1:25 PM, amandeepsingh said:

they are mix up the Sikh religion in Hindu religion

LOL

sikh panth and then the countless hindu panths, are reduced to mere religions in your statement?

[jaikaara]

On 8/19/2017 at 5:55 PM, amandeepsingh said:

Dusht daman is fack story created by Hindu mitheasik because they are mix up the Sikh religion in Hindu religion

Ohh is it ! thanks for letting the Panth know, So you want to say Sant Jarnail Singh ji Khalsa Bhindranwale who did Katha of Bachitar Natak bani was also a Hindu Mitihasak ? 

[jaikaara]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHpcc4cLpM8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbzsI0IYWmA